EPTOn July 22 2010 11:26 RandomBS wrote:
day[9] just mentioned fazing in his king of the beta cast.. congrats op
day[9] just mentioned fazing in his king of the beta cast.. congrats op
Haha i was coming to post the same thing... ARgggg ya beat me
Void Rays - Totally awesome tricks. - Page 23
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MaxField
United States2386 Posts
Haha i was coming to post the same thing... ARgggg ya beat me | ||
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oldahe
Austria534 Posts
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
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virgozero
Canada412 Posts
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TDC
United States197 Posts
On July 22 2010 17:11 Sylvr wrote: I think the reason the pros aren't fazing with their VRs is because Browder pretty much said they were going to "fix" it. As such, it's not entirely legit play, and I don't think the pros want people to look back and say "Well yeah, of course he won, he was using blatant exploits!". Granted, I admit to not knowing much about the history of the pro scene. Perhaps these sort of exploits have been abused for ages and people don't really care. Hell, I remember when you could land buildings on top of Sieged Tanks or put a building anywhere you could see with a trapped Drone. I don't know if any of this kinda stuff was used in Tournaments though. I haven't seen any article saying that he'd fix it, but i'll take your word for it. but would fixing fazing be really necessary? you can't really use fazing when the opponent marines move towards you to shoot, and for 1voidray vs 6-7ish marines, i think it's wise for the voidray to back off, even if it's charged and know more rines are coming. by the time he has 2-3 voidrays, turrets will be nearly ready, and vikings would be out, completely shutting down their ability to faze. it is especially difficult to faze moving targets, which, in most cases, the marines will be moving and shooting towards the voidrays, and considering that it takes full attention to faze(can't rearrange units, cast spells, or even build units while fazing), I think i'll be okay to leave fazing, i mean they could have fixed stop lurkers, mutalisk staking in SC1, but they left them alone. but I do understand if they have to fix it to remove any "bug" before the launch. | ||
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heheman3000
United States4 Posts
The reason damage was front-loaded on charged void rays was to fix the exploit where you could move across the map with charged void rays, then blow the crap out of someone's base. Now, it has introduced fazing on charged void rays. There are two ways they might try to solve this problem: either take away the front loaded damage, so that there is a ramp up before damage is dealt, or decrease the tick time for void rays so they would do less damage but more frequently. Obviously, the first fix would reintroduce the ability to keep yourself charged across the map. What if we reduce the tick to 0.1s or as fast as the best Korean could click? Well, then the void ray would have to do less damage per attack. This runs into issues with armor - effectively, the void ray needs to ignore armor, or its attack will be completely useless if the opponent has some armor upgrades. The only other conceivable way to get around this is to have void rays use different attack mechanics on friendly vs enemy units (front loaded damage on friendly, ramp up on enemy.) But that would just be really weird and inconsistent. Anyone else have other ideas? | ||
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OPSavioR
Sweden1465 Posts
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zealotz55
United States229 Posts
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trancey
United States430 Posts
I've been trying to find this answer but going through 20 threads and countless posts haven't been specific. | ||
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Apollys
United States278 Posts
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
On July 23 2010 13:09 trancey wrote: What is the cooldown of a charged voidray? (ie. how long does a charged voidray have to be not attacking in order to reset to uncharged). . Five seconds max I think. Probably 3 or 4 seconds. + Show Spoiler + why solve it? this seems like the new muta micro.. I think charged fazing is too good, while uncharged is just balanced if you have the APM for it. I don't know how they could fix it to make it that charged void rays can't faze AND keep charged while floating across the map. | ||
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zealotz55
United States229 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Anyone who thinks this should stay in is retarded, im sorry. btw, This video is old as hell.. On July 05 2010 23:00 JamSan wrote: Charged rays definitely don't do any damage immediately, allowing you to maintain charge on your own units/structures as in this video: Using this technique 1 void ray beats 4 unmicroed marines with combat shield, even stimmed. Its great fun to use. Also, first post  Is it possible that blizzard was patching this so that you couldn't self charge without a cost to bldg shields via making them do damage upon first target ignoring normal cooldown/dps.? I think this is what happened. | ||
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trancey
United States430 Posts
On July 23 2010 13:19 Whole wrote: Five seconds max I think. Probably 3 or 4 seconds. + Show Spoiler + why solve it? this seems like the new muta micro.. I think charged fazing is too good, while uncharged is just balanced if you have the APM for it. I don't know how they could fix it to make it that charged void rays can't faze AND keep charged while floating across the map. I tested it myself, it's roughly 2-3? seconds. I'll fraps it so there's a more real time timer. | ||
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Tempora
United States78 Posts
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Anon06
United States203 Posts
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julealgon
Brazil120 Posts
From what I understood of it, the void ray can damage as many units the owner player can click in it's attack cooldown time. If this is indeed true (and I would love if someone tried it, which is easier if playing in a slow speed game of course - don't know if you people thought about this game speed aspect) this can as people said be game breaking when there are multi target encounters. This bug in particular reminds me of a bug I noticed very recently in an old version of StarCraft (which was fixed later on, don't know in which patch) where a unit could use it's ground and air attack with independent cooldowns (for exemple, a dragoon could fire a tank and a battlecruiser at the same time if it switched targets mid-animation) effectively doubling it's damage output in certain circumstances (ground and air unit in unit range). For those who didn't know about it and want to check this bug out, just log into SC 1.0 and try it. As I mentioned earlier, you guys have to reconsider the idea of leaving this bug in the game, since if what I believe actually happens, people playing in slower game speeds will have a bigger advantage, and even in fastest speed, pros would be able to click somewhere near 4 units before the cooldown finishes, which instantly multiplies the VR's damage output by 4. Nevertheless, this topic is extremely important IMHO, and I found the posted videos very cool also, so I thank the OP for those  . I really wish I had access to the game now thought just to test this out.Juliano | ||
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Tempora
United States78 Posts
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julealgon
Brazil120 Posts
On July 23 2010 13:33 Tempora wrote: Hold the phone, whats the difference between what you showed and focus firing? forgive me if im being totally noob, but the vid where you take 11 sec to kill them. thats just cause of the focus firing right, its not some crazy thing that happens only cause you shift+clicked them right? Since I'm reading the thread right now, maybe I could explain this one. Actually, no, it's not the same, in this particular case. When the unit the void ray is attacking dies, it instantly changes target and does the initial damage to the new target. Since it will keep doing this until every unit is dead (and it will instantly do this also, because they are focus firing and killing the probes with the initial damage only) they will waste no time in the idle phase (the time between damage pulses). If they are attack moved, most likely some will attack different probes, resulting in the probes being attacked not dieing with the burst of initial damage only. This will end up making the VRs who did not kill their targets wait for the next pulse to kill them, which in turn will result in much less damage than the method mentioned earlier. Hopefully I could be clear enough with my bad English. | ||
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
On July 23 2010 13:00 heheman3000 wrote: It looks like fixing this bug is going to be a catch 22. I'll outline the ways I think it could go: The reason damage was front-loaded on charged void rays was to fix the exploit where you could move across the map with charged void rays, then blow the crap out of someone's base. Now, it has introduced fazing on charged void rays. There are two ways they might try to solve this problem: either take away the front loaded damage, so that there is a ramp up before damage is dealt, or decrease the tick time for void rays so they would do less damage but more frequently. Obviously, the first fix would reintroduce the ability to keep yourself charged across the map. What if we reduce the tick to 0.1s or as fast as the best Korean could click? Well, then the void ray would have to do less damage per attack. This runs into issues with armor - effectively, the void ray needs to ignore armor, or its attack will be completely useless if the opponent has some armor upgrades. The only other conceivable way to get around this is to have void rays use different attack mechanics on friendly vs enemy units (front loaded damage on friendly, ramp up on enemy.) But that would just be really weird and inconsistent. Anyone else have other ideas? Or they could probably just make it so the damage can't occur more than once per tick regardless of the target, which would make it front-loaded damage only if the timer is up. Edit: Also known as a Global Cooldown. Edit2: Actually, I suppose that's not global at all, but a unique cooldown per Void Ray... | ||
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