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I honestly miss the grace time given in SC1 to draw a game.
Could such a thing be exploited?
What if it was based on an all-player agreement? Game is laggy as balls... no ones wants to play it out, but no one wants to take the loss. Game draws as long as both players check a box agreeing to a draw.
This may sound minuscule, but even with blizzard trying to attain near perfect match-making and limit the latency issues between players, i think we have all played ranked games where the lag is drastic enough to seriously hinder our gameplay. Id like to see a "draw" system implemented into ranked games.
Poll: Draw policy?Sure, DRAW the game if both players agree (425) 84% NO DRAWS! (65) 13% Let me decide within the first minute, its up to me. (16) 3% 506 total votes Your vote: Draw policy? (Vote): NO DRAWS!
(Vote): Sure, DRAW the game if both players agree
(Vote): Let me decide within the first minute, its up to me.
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you could draw a game in sc1?
news to me
EDIT: oh, u mean the first 2 minutes, i get it now sry =P
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Problem is:
Don't like TvP ? Never play TvP ! Game starts; see opponent's race; leave.
DRAW!
Queue up again.
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On July 02 2010 04:39 ThePassingShadow wrote:
Problem is:
Don't like TvP ? Never play TvP ! Game starts; see opponent's race; leave.
DRAW!
Queue up again.
he clearly said that both players shoulda agree to give the draw
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Doesn't go well with a auto-match ladder system. People will try and abuse strategies that allow them to hit or miss under the time limit and if they deem their situation unfavorable they'll just leave. People who notice that their opponent is far better (recognize name, see stats..) can just leave the game when they realize their chances of being able to win are slim.
A mutual choice for a draw would be nice. Again there's the problem with people finding ways to abuse it, for example if two friends collide in the ladder they might just give each other draws so they don't ruin each others records. This feature would probably still have more positive effects than the small negative side effects. I give my thumbs up.
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I forget the grace period but lets say it was 3 minutes. Leave before then and the game draws, though not for an iccup match.
I think a grace period might be to easy to expoit... people rallying their workers badly and gettin pissed and dipping out for the draw right away.
I do think, however, that a player should be able give the other player an opportunity to consider a draw if its in the benefit of both; laggy gameplay for ex.
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i like the idea of the draw after both players agree to it, i cant see any major problems with it
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A mutual choice for a draw would be nice. Again there's the problem with people finding ways to abuse it, for example if two friends collide in the ladder they might just give each other draws so they don't ruin each others records. This feature would probably still have more positive effects than the small negative side effects. I give my thumbs up.
Yeah the old system would be too easy to abuse but the idea of a mutual draw system doesn't seem like a bad idea. Also would the remote chance that 2 friends collide and decide to declare a draw for both their sakes be a bad thing? It's not like they stand to gain anything from doing it either.
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United States12240 Posts
On July 02 2010 04:35 konicki wrote:
I honestly miss the grace time given in SC1 to draw a game.
Could such a thing be exploited?
What if it was based on an all-player agreement? Game is laggy as balls... no ones wants to play it out, but no one wants to take the loss. Game draws as long as both players check a box agreeing to a draw.
This may sound minuscule, but even with blizzard trying to attain near perfect match-making and limit the latency issues between players, i think we have all played ranked games where the lag is drastic enough to seriously hinder our gameplay. Id like to see a "draw" system implemented into ranked games.
The grace period was removed because of the automatic matchmaking. No grace period existed in War3 for this reason. I wouldn't think -- and this is especially true with segregated regions -- that lag would be as much of a problem as leaving games early used to be when you scouted a random Zerg 4pooling you. People also used to leave the game early if they went Random but didn't draw the race they wanted, at no penalty. Player agreements wouldn't solve anything in a competitive game, because people are playing to win.
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If someone asks for a draw, just decline and win. xD
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On July 02 2010 04:42 scnok wrote:
i like the idea of the draw after both players agree to it, i cant see any major problems with it
I totally agree with this. As long as both players agree that it is for the better, like in an extremely laggy game, then they can agree to a draw and perhaps cast an in-game official vote that automatically lets the players leave (before a certain time barrier has been breached anyways) without taking a loss as a penalty.
While I definitely agree with others that there would probably be a couple of minor ways to abuse this, I think that the huge help that it gives (not forcing players to suffer through a laggy game just to avoid a ladder loss) clearly outweighs it. Blizzard really should give this some consideration!
Great post and a great idea!
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On July 02 2010 04:40 Puosu wrote:
Doesn't go well with a auto-match ladder system. People will try and abuse strategies that allow them to hit or miss under the time limit and if they deem their situation unfavorable they'll just leave. People who notice that their opponent is far better (recognize name, see stats..) can just leave the game when they realize their chances of being able to win are slim..
;p in SC2 you never know if your playin Jinro.001 or Jinro.002 / as of now.
As far as "people playing to win".
Surely if someone wants to win they wouldnt agree to a draw. On B.net though as far, as I know, latency problems are felt equally between the two players and I think especially at high levels you would find a large number of players more interested in drawing than playing in a game where they are mutually feeling heavy delays to commands.
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If both players have to agree to it, and there is a specific time limit (2min or w.e.) I really don't see a problem. If you just rage quit its still a loss for you and a win for your opponent. I'm assuming this feature can be used if there is significant lag or you get DO and both agree on a draw to not play that horrible map.
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Mutual draw to escape lag issues is fine.
Unfortunately Blizzard has a lot of things that need to get done before this, like cross-server play and etc.
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What if one player agrees and the other doesn't? That one player can force the other to a draw when hes in a losing situation. I guess the game will go on unless both sides agree to a draw?
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I guess the game will go on unless both sides agree to a draw?
I think this was the point. No draw unless both sides agree that the game isn't worth playing for whatever reason.
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Could be nice, but you should only be able to offer a draw once per game. That will prevent spamming.
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On July 02 2010 04:57 BaaL` wrote:
Could be nice, but you should only be able to offer a draw once per game. That will prevent spamming.
I was thinking it would be an option on the side that wouldn't pause or stop the game in any way unless both players have selected it. If you make the option a 1 time pop up it would be too easy to be typing or doing whatever and misclick as the message pops up.
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On July 02 2010 04:40 Puosu wrote:
Doesn't go well with a auto-match ladder system. People will try and abuse strategies that allow them to hit or miss under the time limit and if they deem their situation unfavorable they'll just leave.
I think in SC1 it also required there to be no attacking yet.
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I don't think that there should be any grace period. I hated it when you wait 5 minutes for a game in sc1 and as soon as it starts your opponent leaves for no reason. You then have to restart your search again. This forces the ' premature rage ' to disappear.
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@ konicki, they removed the identifier tag awhile back.
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I feel that not enough people have seen Galaxy Quest.
Example Situation (From a gold players perspective):
Ok, by sheer luck my MMM timing build seems to have won me my first four placements, now onto the last one. Queu'ing up.... Loading.... Ok, match found! Lets do this, Leeeeerooo.... Jesus christ, really? Fucking Jinro?
This.
Is Going.
To Fucking.
Rock.
Never give up, never surrender! Leeeerooooooooy!
Hero Hold Mode ftw.
Edit: Grammar mistakes ftl...
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mutual draw would also help the terran float stalemates
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thats fine if its on the "friendly quit" kind of mechanic
e: not that i would ever ever accept a friendly quit
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draw seems good. sometimes there could really be a draw, and it would just be stupid to wait for the first person to leave
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On July 02 2010 04:40 scnok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 04:39 ThePassingShadow wrote:
Problem is:
Don't like TvP ? Never play TvP ! Game starts; see opponent's race; leave.
DRAW!
Queue up again. he clearly said that both players shoulda agree to give the draw
I missed that, or he edited it or something, but regardless, if it's an agreement thing, I guess it could be okay. Dealing with those requests would be kind of annoying though. But I guess it could work.
Anyone ever have stalemates where both players have structures but cannot produce units ? It's happened to be about five times. 3/5 times my ally just gg'd and left because he didn't know I couldn't build. Two out of the five times, though.. I got angry and didn't want to just leave, and the other person felt the same way. One time I went to bed angrily, leaving the game open. When I woke up, I had dropped from disconnection. I just laughed. It's not a serious problem, but something that comes up sometimes. Maybe a draw feature without a request would be nice.
Ex: Both players pick draw, not knowing whether the other one picked it, and if they did, it'd just be a draw once both players had the box checked, and otherwise they would have to type in-chat to ask for the draw.
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On July 02 2010 05:08 AnxietE wrote:
@ konicki, they removed the identifier tag awhile back.
Not to go off topic.. but to go off topic, aren't they now going to implement a 3 digit identifier number to avoid unique names?
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I agree i see many time a game who is over but every one have a flying build who let him alive
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Drawing should absolutely be an option. SC2's maps have created an actual situation in which neither player is capable of winning the game, with a prevalence of island expos and 'open-air', where no ground units can hit a lifted terran CC. Because of the increased potential of games reaching a state where no winner can be declared, a draw option should be available. My 2 cents:
- Appears after 5 minutes of no combat OR
- Appears when one player is at 0 supply
- Disappears after combat starts
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While it will be an issue that will be far and few between; what of circumstances where a player and his opponent mutually agree that they don't like the respective match up. It won't happen as abundantly as one player leaving without consequence, but in short still exploitable.
I honestly like things as they are now. I don't think any changes are necessary.
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I can see this to be more abusive/annoying than actually helpful :/
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- Appears after 5 minutes of no combat OR
- Appears when one player is at 0 supply
- Disappears after combat starts
I like those parameters. I also like it being something you simply check instead of an invite you sent. A msg could simple appear "Player "soinso" has agreed to a draw."
You see the prompt and decide based on the situation whether or not you check a draw as well.
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Blizzard has so much money .... they should get an employe .... who looks after games that were voted by both players for a draw ... Solved perfectly
But it will never happen 
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I think it's only needed when there will be agree from both sides i mean draw. I saw a player i think it was with Morrow and oppo from craft cup or idk and there was a draw  it was 1 hour long on lost temple they were both terran and no one wants to atack (both were doing tank/viking strat) each had half of map and all minerals were used it was a really really! nice game but unfortunately i dont have it anymore
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The draw can be a checkbox in the menu and should not send a message or anything to the other player, so there's no way to abuse it or misclick on a prompt or have to limit the number of times you can turn it on/off. If the situation really calls for a draw both players would check the option independantly and there's always chat to suggest a draw. As soon as both players have it checked the game ends with a draw and that's it.
There should also be an automatic draw in situations where no player can win, so you don't have to play a silly waiting game and if it's not automatic there are going to be assholes that intentionally do not agree on a draw, in order to wait it out and get a win.
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why is there so much wrongness on this forum about brood war?
On July 02 2010 05:01 NATO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 04:40 Puosu wrote:
Doesn't go well with a auto-match ladder system. People will try and abuse strategies that allow them to hit or miss under the time limit and if they deem their situation unfavorable they'll just leave. I think in SC1 it also required there to be no attacking yet.
On July 02 2010 04:42 konicki wrote:
I forget the grace period but lets say it was 3 minutes. Leave before then and the game draws, though not for an iccup match
it was 2 minutes and the only exception was scouting cheese or gas steals. this worked on ICCUP because it was such a small program, and there were mods dedicated to review.
the grace period didn't really break the game either (granted that there was mod review for the above exceptions). however, Blizzard is not going to dedicate a "task force" to resolving these kinds of losses.
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Sometimes the game reaches a stalemate or is just so laggy that neither player wants to stay in the game, but neither really wants to take a loss. A mutually agreed upon draw option would be a plus. Something you could hit next to the pause button to offer a draw. Your opponent would get the message that you'd offered as a chat message, and could F10 to accept, but wouldn't have to.
It's not necessary tho. Those of us who are big kids can handle a loss on our record--even if we didn't really lose.
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There's really no downside to a draw system so long as:
Available at all times during the game
Both players must agree
Doesn't pause the game or spam messages
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I have only had one draw so far, only played just under 2 weeks of the beta. Instead of mucking around I just took the loss.
Having an option to draw would be great. It shouldnt notify the other player that you have pressed the draw button as there is always the chat to talk about drawing.
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i do not think there should be a draw option. draw games turn into the ultimate psychological battle, and the player with more mental strength/endurance wins.
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On July 02 2010 09:06 baller wrote:
i do not think there should be a draw option. draw games turn into the ultimate psychological battle, and the player with more mental strength/endurance wins.
Well you absolutely right... when its not a draw that is. A lot of people in this thread alone have quoted games where the draw was inevitable (no money, but unit producing structures).
A draw is a draw and there ARE draw games in SC2. Though, there is no way to recognize both players for drawing. One must lose and another must win as far as the game code is concerned.
This is really about 2 things:
1.) How can we recognize a draw game when one occurs (though rare)?
2.) Can a draw be called to avoid gameplay hindering elements such as high latency?
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On July 02 2010 09:06 baller wrote:
i do not think there should be a draw option. draw games turn into the ultimate psychological battle, and the player with more mental strength/endurance wins.
I'm guessing when all you have left is a floating barracks and no minerals and all I have left is a zealot and a pylon, you're going to prove to be the player with more mental strength/endurance.
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Terrible poll, not enough options. If they ever allow draws to occur, there needs to be restrictions such as 45 minutes must have elapsed in order to vote draw. It would need to be for stalemates only basically. Seeing as bnet is client to server now, if the game is laggy it's either your fault and you have to deal with it or everyone on bnet is lagging and you should stop laddering until it's fixed.
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+ Show Spoiler [Battle.net #1] +"Allied victory so I don't get a lose?"
"sure"
"kkthnx"
But seriously..I think they need a draw option due to the fact that a TvT can end up with 4 marines each and a few buildings floating outside the map which is crazy. I remember 1 custom game I played it was all floating builds TvT and the kid wouldn't leave for some reason, he had no forces just floating buildings and I just had a floating rax, factory, etc, etc and the f***er wouldn't leave...
It was late at night so I decided to just leave the game running all night. By morning the kid had left ^_^.
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On July 02 2010 10:32 Kantutan wrote:
Terrible poll, not enough options. If they ever allow draws to occur, there needs to be restrictions such as 45 minutes must have elapsed in order to vote draw. It would need to be for stalemates only basically. Seeing as bnet is client to server now, if the game is laggy it's either your fault and you have to deal with it or everyone on bnet is lagging and you should stop laddering until it's fixed.
Actually its a great poll. It asks you a question then leaves the thread for you to discuss what you chose and why.
Secondly, you really must not know a lot about latency and the issues that can cause high latency. The two scenerios of: a) BNET is laggy and b) its you slow internet connection, are valid if only the most obvious reasons.
I mean just because you have a 1337 connection to the internet doesnt mean your never going to play someone who doesnt. In that case the lag affects you as well. Wouldn't you prefer to have a draw option?
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I had a game where I was protoss loss my nexus no money to rebuild.. had 2 probes, 3 immortals, 4 stalkers, and 2 zealots.. other guy had 2 barracks floating.. I went afk and came back every 30 minutes.. he left after 3 hours lol.
The thing I hate most about this system is.. that there has been 2 games where I am 100% sure I wouldve won if the game didn't autolose me... I hate losing but I hate losing 1000 times more because the game decides that I lost when I havent..
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On July 02 2010 10:13 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 09:06 baller wrote:
i do not think there should be a draw option. draw games turn into the ultimate psychological battle, and the player with more mental strength/endurance wins. I'm guessing when all you have left is a floating barracks and no minerals and all I have left is a zealot and a pylon, you're going to prove to be the player with more mental strength/endurance.
i'll admit that bw i have lifted vs 4 pool and drilled my opponents drones to death which created a nasty stalemate. looking back at it, i never want to experience it again and i cant imagine anyone that enjoys it.
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Tbh the "offer draw" button should always be there. All that needs to happen is in text down the bottom it says
"Blah blah blah has offered draw" and the offer lasts for 30 seconds. to accept the draw you go menu -> accept draw.
situations where a terran has a barracks floating away with no many and u have no income to get flying units really shouldnt end in a - who can go the longest before there internet dies - war.
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Since draws should be rare, why not just make them worth nothing (no win/loss tallied, no points lost/gained) on ladder?
Then there's no risk of abusing it, and players can get out of laggy games, etc. without tallying a loss.
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On July 02 2010 12:24 goodkarma wrote:
Since draws should be rare, why not just make them worth nothing (no win/loss tallied, no points lost/gained) on ladder?
Then there's no risk of abusing it, and players can get out of laggy games, etc. without tallying a loss.
Yea that definitely be the case.
The abuse worry comes from spamming, or pretty much the implementation of the "draw" feature, not necessarily the "draw" feature itself.
And hell, maybe tallying the draws to account for "games played" would not be a bad idea either.
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On July 02 2010 11:52 Powster wrote:
I had a game where I was protoss loss my nexus no money to rebuild.. had 2 probes, 3 immortals, 4 stalkers, and 2 zealots.. other guy had 2 barracks floating.. I went afk and came back every 30 minutes.. he left after 3 hours lol.
The thing I hate most about this system is.. that there has been 2 games where I am 100% sure I wouldve won if the game didn't autolose me... I hate losing but I hate losing 1000 times more because the game decides that I lost when I havent..
When does the game auto-loss you when u haven't lost? ^_~... The rules of starcraft is the first person to leave the game or lose all their buildings loses, if you do either one of those things you've lost legitimately 100%.
You might as well complain if you have a huge advantage in pieces left in chess but then are dumb enough to get your king mated, then decide you didnt really lose.
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Draw would be great within the first minute or two of a game. In the first 2 minutes you will know if lag is gonna be an issue and you should be allowed to leave without having to play a horribly laggy game or outright lose.
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While one's at it, I think it makes sense to be nice to add a "draw game" option for situations where the opponent disconnects.
I am aware (maybe some people are not) that SC2 detects which players disc as opposed to SC1, which is a key component in implementing my suggestion.
It would be as a voting system for all parties who weren't on the disconnected player's team... it's just a gesture of kindness to the person who got disced, whether you want them to have a loss (and you get a win) they didn't deserve, or not.
I couldn't see it being abused because the disconnected team/player couldn't vote, and there's no reason the player(s) that won would want to call it a draw if the disc was suspicious (player was loosing, or something bad just happened to him)
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no draws. One of the flaws with iccup is people can get to a high rank playing only one or 2 matchups
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On July 02 2010 15:11 Foreplay wrote:
no draws. One of the flaws with iccup is people can get to a high rank playing only one or 2 matchups
not much of a flaw imo, when i played in the beta i had like 90% winrate tvt. Since my overall winrate was about 50% you can imagine how my other matchups looked ^_^, it was pretty frustrating i wish i could have played tvz and tvp versus less skilled opponents and tvt vs more skilled.
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I think this is actually a very useful poll and Blizzard should really consider implementing it. I would certainly want to draw a game if it started to become particularly laggy.
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Grace period is too susceptible to abuse. The mutual draw idea is really good though but most people won't want to draw, they just want you to lag out and win themselves. Well unless they are lagging equally badly.
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There shouldn't be a grace period, but there should be the ability to offer a draw. I don't think draws should give both players zero points though,... it should make both players lose like 5 points! This reason is because a DRAW means you are both losers, not both winners or tied, you tied for last.
Plus I can think of people that will abuse using draws in the same way people try to pause the game 3 times before they quit. Just annoying.
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scout 6pool - alt f4
scout proxy (anything) - alt f4
Only certain group of people would want that... and I dislike associating with these people.
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Unfortunately, any Draw conditions/stipulations will be abused and it will be make things worse than better. Like people have mentioned friends who run into each other will just agree on draws, if its set to a certain timeframe ppl will do all-ins, just leave to begin with, dc, etc.
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A draw doesn't really make sense with the AMM system. Plus, its just asking to be abused.
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Suppose there could be one-time possibility per player to ask for draw per game, same as pauses but this wouldn't pause the game. The situations where draw could be thought don't need pauses anyway, since draw should only be wanted when lag is huge issue, or if there's no chance for either side to get upper hand prebattle (mined out) and defender has the advantage.
It's damn minor thing to think about though, I've played 1,5k+ games in SC2 and haven't met a situation where draw would've been necessary. Few times due to blizz' unplayable lag it would have helped tho.
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Guys, how the hell could an offer draw system be abused? Both sides would need to agree. If two friends that know each other play in a AMM game and decide to offer draw, so what? you don't get any losses or wins, so it's not what I'd consider abuse, theres still thousands/millions of other AMM opponents they can play against. In fact I'd say it's even god, in the sense that when the multiplayer starts up and no one is placed in a league, it will place people based off their record, and if really good people play each other, it's simply not fair for one of them to get a loss (in my opinion), since they would then need to play more games to move to their proper league.
All one needs to do is type like "/draw", some text would appear on the other side's screen, and if they typed /draw too then the game would end in a draw.
Overall, I don't think offer draw is an important option, but it is rather simple and may help some unfair stalemate situations people are put in. I like the option to offer draws to people who disconnect even better, personally
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On July 02 2010 04:42 scnok wrote:
i like the idea of the draw after both players agree to it, i cant see any major problems with it
I can see one, so if the game isn't laggy for one player and the other player SAYS that it's laggy (might not be laggy at all... might only be cause he's misclicked and f'ed his start) and the player doesn't want to agree to draw... then the other player will just call bad manner and blah blah blah so it will become something huge over the community. Rules will be setuped within the community and not agreeing to draw will be viewed as being bad manner and blah blah blah....
imo better the way it is. You lag? you pay the price, both lags? well play the game, there is no advantage for both players. You don't want to play cause it's laggy? Take the lost like a man. You don't want the lost? Well don't play or play customs.
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On July 02 2010 20:23 Ouga wrote:
Suppose there could be one-time possibility per player to ask for draw per game, same as pauses but this wouldn't pause the game. The situations where draw could be thought don't need pauses anyway, since draw should only be wanted when lag is huge issue, or if there's no chance for either side to get upper hand prebattle (mined out) and defender has the advantage.
It's damn minor thing to think about though, I've played 1,5k+ games in SC2 and haven't met a situation where draw would've been necessary. Few times due to blizz' unplayable lag it would have helped tho.
For one that is not the only situation.... If you dont believe me, read the previous 3 pages.
Secondly, your right, its not only about draw games, but unplayable games; games where one of the two opponents have a bad connection to the servers. It doesn't matter who it is as both of the players will experience the lag associated with the others connection. A "draw" system helps remedy this type of situation that does indeed occur.
Is it a minor thing... yea, but a lot of the minor things are what is bring bnet 2.0 down. Its all the minor things that have been ignored. Is this even that difficult to implement?
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On July 02 2010 18:09 bokchoi wrote:
Unfortunately, any Draw conditions/stipulations will be abused and it will be make things worse than better. Like people have mentioned friends who run into each other will just agree on draws, if its set to a certain timeframe ppl will do all-ins, just leave to begin with, dc, etc.
omg do you people even read the post!? Honestly don't respond if your not even going to read the post.
The fact that a player simply given the option to draw within the first 2 min was determined abusive in the original post.
Friends agreeing to draw.... OK. What is the big deal there. They don't get a win. They don't get a loss. These are ranked matches so they will have to lose or win to stake claim. I don't see how friends agreeing to draw in a random match-making system could become abused unless you were awarded points for drawing.
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Most of the people on the first page are not reading the thread, it states clearly that BOTH PLAYERS MUST AGREE to draw. Therefore you can't just dodge certain opponents: both you and your opponents must agree. Therefore the only times dodging will work is if everyone is lagging
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I like the both players must agree....
but leaving it with no draws is fine, only because it can be abused (via self/forced disconnections)...either way, Blizzard has it right.
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On July 03 2010 00:17 Xapti wrote:
Guys, how the hell could an offer draw system be abused? Both sides would need to agree. If two friends that know each other play in a AMM game and decide to offer draw, so what? you don't get any losses or wins, so it's not what I'd consider abuse, theres still thousands/millions of other AMM opponents they can play against. In fact I'd say it's even god, in the sense that when the multiplayer starts up and no one is placed in a league, it will place people based off their record, and if really good people play each other, it's simply not fair for one of them to get a loss (in my opinion), since they would then need to play more games to move to their proper league.
All one needs to do is type like "/draw", some text would appear on the other side's screen, and if they typed /draw too then the game would end in a draw.
Overall, I don't think offer draw is an important option, but it is rather simple and may help some unfair stalemate situations people are put in. I like the option to offer draws to people who disconnect even better, personally
i can think of a way that it would be abused. if your opponent doesn't want a loss and he doesn't want to play you for whatever reason, he could purposely start lagging (by downloading for example) and ask for a draw. even if you were way ahead, if the lag is bad enough you'll want to get out of the game asap.
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On July 03 2010 01:23 Win.win wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 00:17 Xapti wrote:
Guys, how the hell could an offer draw system be abused? Both sides would need to agree. If two friends that know each other play in a AMM game and decide to offer draw, so what? you don't get any losses or wins, so it's not what I'd consider abuse, theres still thousands/millions of other AMM opponents they can play against. In fact I'd say it's even god, in the sense that when the multiplayer starts up and no one is placed in a league, it will place people based off their record, and if really good people play each other, it's simply not fair for one of them to get a loss (in my opinion), since they would then need to play more games to move to their proper league.
All one needs to do is type like "/draw", some text would appear on the other side's screen, and if they typed /draw too then the game would end in a draw.
Overall, I don't think offer draw is an important option, but it is rather simple and may help some unfair stalemate situations people are put in. I like the option to offer draws to people who disconnect even better, personally i can think of a way that it would be abused. if your opponent doesn't want a loss and he doesn't want to play you for whatever reason, he could purposely start lagging (by downloading for example) and ask for a draw. even if you were way ahead, if the lag is bad enough you'll want to get out of the game asap.
Wow, good thinking. There has to be some way to solve that, because when both players have no money and a floating barracks, its a waiting game = NOT STARCRAFT.
Maybe use that smart mind and think of a solution . Lol I'm trying at least...
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Absolutely not. Every kind of draw system can be abused easily.
Even in case of mutual agreement, good players might not want to duke it out against each other and just offer draw each time they meet, that wouldn't be good.
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While a good idea I don't think it's nessecary. I'm fairly sure most people wouldn't abuse it if it was a mutual agreement. It just isn't needed though. Losing a few games due to lag doesn't really matter in the whole picture of a Ladder Season, they are having seasons right? (You could also win some, really making it a wash)
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On July 02 2010 04:39 ThePassingShadow wrote:
Problem is:
Don't like TvP ? Never play TvP ! Game starts; see opponent's race; leave.
DRAW!
Queue up again.
Yeah the system would never work with a match making engine.
I like the idea of having a button both players have to click to agree on a draw.
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sugestion:
1) you only can draw when both agree.
2) drawing a game is a partloose. you loose some not many points by a draw.
so no one will draw if they dont have to. they draw on draw situations ( both no base both 1 building , 1 on island) or on lag.
@Win.win
if someone makes superlag its no way to abuse the draw system. its a way to abuse the winstystem! if you got superlag you surrender even if you would win. so its a little fix for this problem. you can deny draw and play it out when you want....
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I would really like this possibility to draw. There have been more than a few times the second I get in a game the doorbell rings or phone goes off and it's something I must take care of for work etc. Then all of a sudden u can't get out of the game and it's really tuff to choose.
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On July 03 2010 01:44 skeldark wrote:
sugestion:
1) you only can draw when both agree.
2) drawing a game is a partloose. you loose some not many points by a draw.
so no one will draw if they dont have to. they draw on draw situations ( both no base both 1 building , 1 on island) or on lag.
@Win.win
if someone makes superlag its no way to abuse the draw system. its a way to abuse the winstystem! if you got superlag you surrender even if you would win. so its a little fix for this problem. you can deny draw and play it out when you want....
The problem there is that when there is lag it is usually due to one persons connection and not the others. And, depending on location, service providers, and what not that person could be you or me one game and out opponent the next game. Reducing someones points becuase the prefer to use the "draw" option to avoid a laggy game isnt fair.
Asking players to sit through a lag fest no matter who is at fault is the ridiculous part. A player should not be punished for wanting to find an opponent with whom he connects better.
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On July 03 2010 01:23 Win.win wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 00:17 Xapti wrote:
Guys, how the hell could an offer draw system be abused? Both sides would need to agree. If two friends that know each other play in a AMM game and decide to offer draw, so what? you don't get any losses or wins, so it's not what I'd consider abuse, theres still thousands/millions of other AMM opponents they can play against. In fact I'd say it's even god, in the sense that when the multiplayer starts up and no one is placed in a league, it will place people based off their record, and if really good people play each other, it's simply not fair for one of them to get a loss (in my opinion), since they would then need to play more games to move to their proper league.
All one needs to do is type like "/draw", some text would appear on the other side's screen, and if they typed /draw too then the game would end in a draw.
Overall, I don't think offer draw is an important option, but it is rather simple and may help some unfair stalemate situations people are put in. I like the option to offer draws to people who disconnect even better, personally i can think of a way that it would be abused. if your opponent doesn't want a loss and he doesn't want to play you for whatever reason, he could purposely start lagging (by downloading for example) and ask for a draw. even if you were way ahead, if the lag is bad enough you'll want to get out of the game asap.
This is indeed plausable.... However, you can remedy it by adding simple parameters.
1/ no attacking has occured
2/ niether player is actively mining
That is a good point though because you can easily open up a third party program to create lag.
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On July 03 2010 01:23 Win.win wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 00:17 Xapti wrote:
Guys, how the hell could an offer draw system be abused? Both sides would need to agree. If two friends that know each other play in a AMM game and decide to offer draw, so what? you don't get any losses or wins, so it's not what I'd consider abuse, theres still thousands/millions of other AMM opponents they can play against. In fact I'd say it's even god, in the sense that when the multiplayer starts up and no one is placed in a league, it will place people based off their record, and if really good people play each other, it's simply not fair for one of them to get a loss (in my opinion), since they would then need to play more games to move to their proper league.
All one needs to do is type like "/draw", some text would appear on the other side's screen, and if they typed /draw too then the game would end in a draw.
Overall, I don't think offer draw is an important option, but it is rather simple and may help some unfair stalemate situations people are put in. I like the option to offer draws to people who disconnect even better, personally i can think of a way that it would be abused. if your opponent doesn't want a loss and he doesn't want to play you for whatever reason, he could purposely start lagging (by downloading for example) and ask for a draw. even if you were way ahead, if the lag is bad enough you'll want to get out of the game asap.
And how is the current system any better in that scneario? Some one could still start lagging hoping that you will leave even if no draw system exist.
I think ppl for some reasson are trying to think of ways to abuse a mutual draw agreement, but after reading this thread i still cant think of many valid ones.
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On July 02 2010 10:32 Kantutan wrote:
Seeing as bnet is client to server now, if the game is laggy it's either your fault and you have to deal with it or everyone on bnet is lagging and you should stop laddering until it's fixed.
Just wanted to point out the possiblity that its neither your fault, your ISP's fault, or Blizzard's fault, since the Internet is not magic, connections from a specific location to another location can be filled with traffic or have problems that cause lag from one place to another (I.E. , its the internet's fault).
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check this out, i made a post regarding this
link here
here are some elaborate ways of introducing draw option in game
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Not sure if I'd like this. I envision lots of popular/well known players dodging eachother constantly and getting ridiculous stats just because they arent forced to play anybody good. I'd probably end up being suspicious of anybody with ridiculous stats and probably not give anybody their due credit.
I'd also feel awkward and guilty if I ever denied somebody a draw as if I'm bming them.
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absolutely nothing wrong with it if both players agree
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Not sure why people would be opposed to having a mutual-draw feature, it would end those long drawn games where you have to become a minesweeper.
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I dont know about you guys, but I could easily see Blizzard being able to code in something that basically is:
if ms (or lag,) > 100
then offerdraw to players
that way, the only way I guess you could exploit it is by making your own computer lag... but the only reason you would do that is late game to try and make your opponent agree to the draw.
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On July 03 2010 11:14 billyX333 wrote:
Not sure if I'd like this. I envision lots of popular/well known players dodging eachother constantly and getting ridiculous stats just because they arent forced to play anybody good. I'd probably end up being suspicious of anybody with ridiculous stats and probably not give anybody their due credit.
I'd also feel awkward and guilty if I ever denied somebody a draw as if I'm bming them.
There is surely a way to get around this....
For one, good players need to play good players to stay on top, earn points. Secondly the players who consistently draw each other will eventually fall behind those players who do not. It would be in their best interest to win.
Finally, the solution again might be that there is a negative connotation given to drawing (like disconnects in SC1).
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Draw's should be allowed if either both players agree, or one player leaves before the 2-3 minute mark. I think how they had it in the first starcraft was fine.
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this is when blizzards policy of "they dont know what they want" should come in effect.
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On July 03 2010 13:51 konicki wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 11:14 billyX333 wrote:
Not sure if I'd like this. I envision lots of popular/well known players dodging eachother constantly and getting ridiculous stats just because they arent forced to play anybody good. I'd probably end up being suspicious of anybody with ridiculous stats and probably not give anybody their due credit.
I'd also feel awkward and guilty if I ever denied somebody a draw as if I'm bming them. For one, good players need to play good players to stay on top, earn points.
Thats not true
there are tons of fish out there with 2k points
Secondly the players who consistently draw each other will eventually fall behind those players who do not. It would be in their best interest to win.
not true either, any two top players who have a long drawn out history who are generally 50/50 vs eachother arent going to want to play eachother for points
break even expected value imo
why waste 15 minutes on break even expected value when you can just leave and play somebody you're 80/20 against?
also, top players are usually playing a lot of games
drawing 10 games a day immediately as they begin takes up the time of 1-2 games at most
I don't see how drawing out games vs better/tough opponents is ever bad when your only goal is to gain points
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On July 03 2010 01:23 Win.win wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 00:17 Xapti wrote:
Guys, how the hell could an offer draw system be abused? Both sides would need to agree. If two friends that know each other play in a AMM game and decide to offer draw, so what? you don't get any losses or wins, so it's not what I'd consider abuse, theres still thousands/millions of other AMM opponents they can play against. In fact I'd say it's even god, in the sense that when the multiplayer starts up and no one is placed in a league, it will place people based off their record, and if really good people play each other, it's simply not fair for one of them to get a loss (in my opinion), since they would then need to play more games to move to their proper league.
All one needs to do is type like "/draw", some text would appear on the other side's screen, and if they typed /draw too then the game would end in a draw.
Overall, I don't think offer draw is an important option, but it is rather simple and may help some unfair stalemate situations people are put in. I like the option to offer draws to people who disconnect even better, personally i can think of a way that it would be abused. if your opponent doesn't want a loss and he doesn't want to play you for whatever reason, he could purposely start lagging (by downloading for example) and ask for a draw. even if you were way ahead, if the lag is bad enough you'll want to get out of the game asap. Those aren't valid reasons. The issue you mentioned has very little to do with a draw system. It's more so just a (potential) general issue for SC2 - The following explains why:
#1 (assuming it was possible) A person could do that even without the offer draw system, and in that case they'd get a win instead of a tie.
#2 Due to the the way the server tech works in SC2, I highly doubt the player could lag the game consistently enough to bother a person for a prolonged period of time without being dropped by the lag screen. They could lag for a bit, but then they would either have to stop lagging, or get dropped.
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Draws should be in the game if both sides agree to it.
I once had a game where I got cannon rushed while I had proxy warpgates at his main.
So we killed our nexes, no one had money to do anything, he had some cannons left und I had some zealots, he could not attack me and I sure as hell wouldn't run into the cannons ^^.
Well we decided to and the game with rock paper sicors in the chat and I won XD
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EPT
