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I was discussing with one of my friends which races seem to be most dominant at different points in the game. Like which race is strongest during early game, mid-game, and late game?
DISCLAIMER: OPINION ALERT
For example, I felt that In Brood War, Protoss dominated early game, Terran dominated mid game, and Zerg controlled late game. That was my personal opinion.
What do you guys think about SC2 in this case?
PLEASE VOTE ON UNITS AVAILABLE AND GENERAL TACTICS TAKEN. I understand that Build Orders cause variations here but I'm sure you guys can still have a general opinion. Like which race would you LEAST want to play during early, mid, and late game?
Poll: Which rate is best at early game?Protoss (77) 54% Terran (43) 30% Zerg (16) 11% Balanced (7) 5% 143 total votes Your vote: Which rate is best at early game? (Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Balanced
Poll: Which race is best at mid-game?Terran (78) 60% Zerg (24) 18% Balanced (19) 15% Protoss (10) 8% 131 total votes Your vote: Which race is best at mid-game? (Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Balanced
Poll: Which race is best at late game?Terran (95) 68% Zerg (28) 20% Protoss (12) 9% Balanced (4) 3% 139 total votes Your vote: Which race is best at late game? (Vote): Terran
(Vote): Protoss
(Vote): Zerg
(Vote): Balanced
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They're all balanced IMO. Isn't that the idea?
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On June 05 2010 03:19 ChocolateZerg wrote:
DISCLAIMER: OPINION ALERT
For example, I felt that In Brood War, Protoss dominated early game, Terran dominated mid game, and Zerg controlled late game. That was my personal opinion.
To what extent? Because in BW I feel this is much less true than it is in starcraft 2, although its not THAT bad in SC2.
Also, I think early each race is sort of split up with what they are good at early game. T is the best defensively, P is the best offensively, and Z is the best in being able to produce since they can use an early inject larvae.
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The big problem with TL polls is that you see the results before you vote. It biases the voters.
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as a Protoss player I think early game is clearly P>Z and T>P.
Zealots are so strong vs lings now
Terrans can do so much gay shit early game its ridiculous
I think midgame PvT is pretty even,I just personally have some big troubles with some builds (1 1 1) midgame PvZ is still pretty good for P in that sense that P can do some gay shit like 4gate or 3 gate robo while Zerg doesnt have that many options, but then if you just let zerg do what he wants he might punish you for it later by having massive eco and army, so I have a really hard time judging that. I dont face zergs often in ladder...
late game PvT is really really hard when the enemy has a big mech force, against M&M I feel pretty comfortable cause colossi rape.
Late game PvZ is really really hard vs good opponents but I gotta admit I've rarely faced good zerg players.
Really all these judgments are a bit shady cause I feel I havent played enough games to judge this properly
However, I'm pretty certain of these early game tendencies of T>P, P>Z
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the problem i have is this si matchup dependant:
Terran > Toss early
Toss > Zerg early
Zerg = Terran early
Terran < Zerg Midgame
Terran >= Toss Midgame
Zerg ? Toss Midgame (i dont play enough of this matchup to know)
Zerg > Terran lategame (as i prepare for a flaming- this is due to the zerg being able to have map control, a good zerg player should steamroll T lategame with ling/hydra/broodlord... especially vs tank thor viking)
Terran > Toss lategame
Zerg ? Toss lategame (see above)
Edit: 7mk you ninjaing bastard.
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I think you should have added option for balanced.
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Wait that means Zerg sucks early,mid and late? I think Late-game Zerg should get more love-votes.
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hehe 
Btw about PvZ, idra said himself he thinks Z >>P late game (and P >> Z early game)
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On June 05 2010 03:35 Kurumi wrote:
Wait that means Zerg sucks early,mid and late? I think Late-game Zerg should get more love-votes.
Agreed. Zerg is the dominant race lategame.
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I've updated the poll to also have balanced as an option.
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Terran really doesn't dominate mid-game.
In fact, mid-game is the best time to break the terran army to prevent them from getting to late game.
Late game I would actually say P and T are on par, and Z gets the shaft.
Early game I don't have enough knowledge to judge.
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I voted
Protoss
Terran
Terran
Protoss since Zealot is clearly the best 1st unit! You need a pack of 5 zerglins to kill 1 and at least 2 marines (microed). They have the best early pressure and can produce like kings.
Terran simply because marauders + medivacs will dominate any mid games. Also since they have the most EARLY cheaps (reapers, banshee, timing push with MMM).
Terran cause of their power mech. Now with the tank nerf i'm not so sure about it but I think it will still be quite good.
Zerg, imo are just "good" at any stage. Not the best but just good everywhere....
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On June 05 2010 03:33 Zoltan wrote:
the problem i have is this si matchup dependant:
Terran > Toss early
Toss > Zerg early
Zerg = Terran early
Terran < Zerg Midgame
Terran >= Toss Midgame
Zerg ? Toss Midgame (i dont play enough of this matchup to know)
Zerg > Terran lategame (as i prepare for a flaming- this is due to the zerg being able to have map control, a good zerg player should steamroll T lategame with ling/hydra/broodlord... especially vs tank thor viking)
Terran > Toss lategame
Zerg ? Toss lategame (see above)
Edit: 7mk you ninjaing bastard.
I like how you have Terran > Toss for every part of the game, because it is true.
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The problem I have with this pole is that it really depends on what happens before you get to mid or late game. The game is so dynamic that it is just about impossible to come up with an answer.
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On June 05 2010 03:42 NATO wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 03:33 Zoltan wrote:
the problem i have is this si matchup dependant:
Terran > Toss early
Toss > Zerg early
Zerg = Terran early
Terran < Zerg Midgame
Terran >= Toss Midgame
Zerg ? Toss Midgame (i dont play enough of this matchup to know)
Zerg > Terran lategame (as i prepare for a flaming- this is due to the zerg being able to have map control, a good zerg player should steamroll T lategame with ling/hydra/broodlord... especially vs tank thor viking)
Terran > Toss lategame
Zerg ? Toss lategame (see above)
Edit: 7mk you ninjaing bastard. I like how you have Terran > Toss for every part of the game, because it is true.
Lol well early game reaper > toss
rest of game Ghost > toss =D
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Eh I think there's a little bit of qq'ing going on with everyone voting terran everywhere.
Def. early game I feel like reapers are such a strong opening and lead straight into marauders. Lingrush and zealotRush is easily blocked by a wall-in. And zerg can't really go for mass lings without sacrificing a lot of drone production. If toss goes aggressive against a terran his stalker will be too late to deal with reapers.
I don't feel like zerg's weak early game.. People just forgot about roaches because of the nerf. Roach/baneling or roach/ling > protoss gateway army. (use the lings on sentries, not zealots).
zerg's strongest mid right now I think, mutalisks, hydralisks, infestors. All their good units come at this point. This is when zerg seizes map control and expands.
Late game zerg is  . Ultralisks are still pretty difficult to find a justification for. So far zerg doesnt have an answer to terran mech.
Also based on the polls it looks like protoss is weakest, not zerg. And I kind of agree with that.
Also just for refrence i'm a low diamond player that plays zerg/toss.
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On June 05 2010 03:33 Zoltan wrote:
the problem i have is this si matchup dependant:
Terran > Toss early
Toss > Zerg early
Zerg = Terran early
Terran < Zerg Midgame
Terran >= Toss Midgame
Zerg ? Toss Midgame (i dont play enough of this matchup to know)
Zerg > Terran lategame (as i prepare for a flaming- this is due to the zerg being able to have map control, a good zerg player should steamroll T lategame with ling/hydra/broodlord... especially vs tank thor viking)
Terran > Toss lategame
Zerg ? Toss lategame (see above)
Edit: 7mk you ninjaing bastard.
I'm pretty sure I shouldn't even respond to this, but whether or not your ZvT lategame analysis is correct (I do happen to disagree) you can't possibly believe that ling hydra broodlord is a good unit composition against tank viking thor, you need like 6-8 tanks to hold off infinity lings and hyras and the vikings and thors will then just clean up the broodlords (which are good units, but only when they can be defended). Also to talk about map control with hydras and broodlords AND map control makes no sense, those are the slowest units for zerg, those are NOT map control units.
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I voted Protoss, Terran, Terran but it's not true on every map.
I feel that zerg is very strong in late game on desert oasis for example. Zerg can be a very strong race in late game but a lot of current map are just not adapted.
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true, maps certainly play a big role, especially with perverted maps like incineration zone
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In general as zerg I find zvp very balanced (as long as you scout 2 gate), zvt I find terran has the advantage terran really never has to worry about anything early where as zerg not only has to be super wary of bunker rushes, reapers, hellions, MnM all-ins. It's very scary but really I just have to convince myself that it's supposed to be that way.
Zerg lategame > all in my experiance but it's very hard to get there without staying ahead all game. Tanks shoot super fast and way better AI than sc1, they can't really be dealt with effectively to be dealt with effectively without either holding their numbers back through constant roach/ling pressure to keep numbers down or broodlords (the only reasonably effective way to draw tank fire for your roaches/lings is by using broodling, several tanks melt ANY ground army even with limited support).
My personal final verdict:
T>P all phases of the game, there's usually 1 scary protoss push but in general ghosts > protoss.
P=Z all phases of the game
T>Z early-mid game, Z>T lategame
All advantages can be overcome through many other areas of personal skill/strategy, except incineration zone, that map is pretty rofl for the swarm -_-;
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The polls should be based on individual match ups rather than each race as a whole. There isn't much useful information that can be drawn from this.
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On June 05 2010 03:20 Backpack wrote:
They're all balanced IMO. Isn't that the idea?
ahhh, there can never be enough optimism 
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.... the early game is balanced I feel because there is many different build orders / building placements that work differently on each map, and you cannot say 1 race is strongest early game right now because it's just not the way the game works
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I can only speak for zerg matchups, of course.
ZvP
Early: Z
Mid: Even
Late: P
Z has the luxury of either early pressure or drone powering early. Once P can tech void rays/collosi and/or build up for a push, P catches up. At the same time, however, Z still has lots of harrass options and is strong vs the P army on open ground if they've scouted well and built an army. I think things swing slightly to P late game when P has secured a third, is able to construct critical masses of void rays/collosi and sentries to split an army. They also have extremely fast reinforce with warp gates.
ZvT
Early: T
Mid: Z
Late: T
T has a lot of harass or all-in options early which can sometimes be tough to scout. Zerg usually has a midgame timing when muta harass or other map control is easy and zerg can safely macro a bit. Late game, the high damage output and range of many T units makes an extremely tough ball to crack which usually has to be combated indirectly.
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On June 05 2010 04:23 MoreFasho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 03:33 Zoltan wrote:
the problem i have is this si matchup dependant:
Terran > Toss early
Toss > Zerg early
Zerg = Terran early
Terran < Zerg Midgame
Terran >= Toss Midgame
Zerg ? Toss Midgame (i dont play enough of this matchup to know)
Zerg > Terran lategame (as i prepare for a flaming- this is due to the zerg being able to have map control, a good zerg player should steamroll T lategame with ling/hydra/broodlord... especially vs tank thor viking)
Terran > Toss lategame
Zerg ? Toss lategame (see above)
Edit: 7mk you ninjaing bastard. I'm pretty sure I shouldn't even respond to this, but whether or not your ZvT lategame analysis is correct (I do happen to disagree) you can't possibly believe that ling hydra broodlord is a good unit composition against tank viking thor, you need like 6-8 tanks to hold off infinity lings and hyras and the vikings and thors will then just clean up the broodlords (which are good units, but only when they can be defended). Also to talk about map control with hydras and broodlords AND map control makes no sense, those are the slowest units for zerg, those are NOT map control units.
Even though hydra bl is slow- on creep hydras are pretty fast. Zerg should be able to have creep on most of the map. All the zerg should be doing is surrounding the terran on 2 (or even 3) bases, and forcing him to try to push out against the broodlords. The only chance terran has is a slow march into zerg territory( slowly moving tanks forawrd while covering them with vikings). The vikings cant go farther than tank range because they will get killed by hydras. Not impossible but also not easy, with the zerg being able to do serious damage to the T back line if the T overextends to far. In retrospect the balance is fairly even, but i do think that Z has the advantage simply because they can take more bases faster than the terran player can, and is more mobile once set up on 3+ bases.
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On June 05 2010 05:42 3clipse wrote:
I can only speak for zerg matchups, of course.
ZvP
Early: Z
Mid: Even
Late: P
Z has the luxury of either early pressure or drone powering early. Once P can tech void rays/collosi and/or build up for a push, P catches up. At the same time, however, Z still has lots of harrass options and is strong vs the P army on open ground if they've scouted well and built an army. I think things swing slightly to P late game when P has secured a third, is able to construct critical masses of void rays/collosi and sentries to split an army. They also have extremely fast reinforce with warp gates.
ZvT
Early: T
Mid: Z
Late: T
T has a lot of harass or all-in options early which can sometimes be tough to scout. Zerg usually has a midgame timing when muta harass or other map control is easy and zerg can safely macro a bit. Late game, the high damage output and range of many T units makes an extremely tough ball to crack which usually has to be combated indirectly.
I completely agree with this. I play protoss and was a high level diamond player (before wipe... not that that says all that much)
PvZ
For me this matchup was really just all about scouting. Lings come out earlier than Zeals and ling all ins or run-by's can be a pain to deal with if you aren't properly walled. Towards the mid game I'd give Z a slight advantage but that's mainly due to the power of muta harass. P needs to scout constantly to see if that expo is coming up and how many gasses are up in the main. By the late game if I've reached critical mass of Colossi (Coloxen?) then that's pretty much gg for the zerg.
PvT
I'd say:
Early: T - Reaper or Marauder harass
Mid: P - 4 gate, 3 gate robo, VR rush, 3 gate phoenix
Late: T - Critical mass in tanks > any ground army. And protoss air generally has a hard time vs T due to Vikings and Marines
Early game it can be a huge gamble for protoss. Standard play has P not wall off and go for a quick cyber -> stalker. This is fine if he reaper rushes you, but I've been caught off guard with a proxy marauder before and as you all know a marauder will slap a stalker silly. You basically have to hold off until your next zeal comes but sometimes they will basically all in with those marauders and then what can you do? Stalkers dont work and zealots get kited.
Towards Mid game the matchup swings back in favor of the Protoss as there are plenty of options available and their army is just now starting to get scary.
Late, unless the P pulls a complete techswitch and calls in the Protoss air fleet, they will just get annihilated by siege tanks + ghost support. And really to fund a heavy air tech switch P needs 3+ bases. If the T goes MMM, it is much much easier to deal with, but those damn tanks really screw up everything.
TvZ
Early: T
Mid: Z
Late: T (unless Z gambles and goes for BLs)
If you haven't seen them, search for qxc vs sheth. These replays show without a shadow of a doubt that late game Z ground army has NO chance whatsoever against an entrenched T. I believe sheth threw 3 200/200 armies at qxc. Sheth lost his army every time (including ultras) while qxc dropped something like 10 supply and qxc had like 16 siege tanks just chillin in his main not even in the fight.
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United States47024 Posts
Late-game is tricky to judge. In theory, a Zerg who successfully survives the transition to Corruptor/Broodlord is in extremely good shape in both matchups, and is hard to fight cost-effectively. In practice, the transition is tough to pull off without getting punished for it, or without having to face counter units that are a much smoother transition (e.g. Vikings). The question is what do you call Zerg "late game" if they have no safe way to get to late game tech?
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EPT
