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Patch notes: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23094049316&postId=251691264421&sid=5000#18
StarCraft II Beta – Patch 15 (version 0.17.0.15623)
The latest patch notes can always be found at
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=23094049316&sid=5000
General
Improved the system that handles initial placement and promotion/relegation between Leagues & Ladders.
Balance Changes
TERRAN
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Reaper
Nitro Packs research cost decreased from 100/100 to 50/50.
Siege Tank
Siege Mode damage decreased from 60 to 50.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
ZERG
Brood Lord
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 3 to 2.
Bug Fixes
Resolved an issue with publishing maps in non-English locales.
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not sure about the siege tanks nerf, was it really a problem?
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Siege range should be decrease imo.
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They gave up on protoss nerfing
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Woah, that nitro buff is going to be huge for harass.
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Oh, man that is a huge nerf on tanks...
Good job qxc, look what you did!
In TvZ
It looks like mech is going to be less viable midgame now that reaching critical tank mass will take longer, so I think we are going to be seeing some marauder play?
Its interesting to note that:
the hydralisk has 80 hp
the roach has 145 hp
and the ling has 35 hp
Meaning that practically this damage nerf does not affect the number of hits it takes without upgrades.
Though I think this may affect the number of hits that splash damage requires to kill stuff, which would make a big difference in dealing with lings, since now splash will never 1 hit lings, while before double weapons upgraded tanks would kill lings in the 50% damage splash zone.
Upgraded tanks now go: 50 -> 55 ->60 -> 65
Also in TvP
This means tanks won't 3 shot zealots anymore, nor will they 3 shot stalkers anymore, un-upgraded that is.
Tanks with one weapons upgrade will still kill in 3 shots.
But this is less significant because of the amount of use that tanks saw in TvP due to immortals.
Anyways, its double rax tech lab reaper time?
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I'm guessing the main point of this patch was the change in the ladder promotion / ranking system... Does this mean extension of SCIIBeta? :D
(I mean, what can they actually test in 4 days  )
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I'd be interested in seeing how much the dps has changed on tanks in siege mode. How often did they fire?
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Really interesting patch, tanks and some upgrades nerfed, but that Reaper buff is making me think a bit. I wish they'd just fix battle.net instead 
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They gave up on protoss nerfing
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As a Terran player who favors early game play... I see this as fine/good
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This patch definantly didn't fix or improve on anything, from my point of view. Although the -10 dmg on siege tanks is a pretty large nerf but its still sidestepping the main issue(lack of AI overkill) while affecting other MU:s.
Early reaper harasses are going to be even more common now.
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The tank nerf was needed. I am a little confused about the reaper buff. Thank god there was no protoss nerf this time.
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I guess all the "OMFG Mech is imba!" Threads are starting to pay off? lol But really the changes aren't much so not like I'll even notice the change besides maybe the reaper speed cost decreased which is pretty nice.
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Haha, seems like all those raging Zergs making billion forums blaming about everything finally made it.. :DD
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Gonna have to post what I did in the other one:
Not touching Toss. I guess they feel like it's in a pretty good position.
Not too sure how I feel about the Hellion and Thor nerf though. They seemed to fit pretty well in a realistic point-of-view. I kinda wish they would've removed the siege tank smart-firing system instead of nerfing damage, but that might screw up too many balance changes.
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Ouch for terrans. I'm not sure that I agree with reducing the siege damage like that -- seems kinda heavy-handed. I don't think that tanks are really the problem. Where is the viking range nerf? How about better maps that aren't so conducive to tank abuse?
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God these cheap upgrades for terran bio are so silly. Any research less than 100/100 might as well be free. Why did they think it's necessary?
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early game reaper harass will become a ton more common.
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On June 04 2010 09:05 Disastorm wrote:
I'd be interested in seeing how much the dps has changed on tanks in siege mode. How often did they fire?
Their dps is 1/6 lower than it was
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Are tanks really that powerful? Seems not too long ago everyone was complaining that they were worthless because the cost so much gas compared to sc1. Plus with immortal, they have limited use vs toss.
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lol tank nerf... but still 125 gas =(
nitro pack change is imo stupid, instead of making it cheaper they hsould have made it 150/150 BUT make them after the upgrade as fast as speedlings. the moment a zerg gets speedlings they are useless and the moment a p gets a stalker they are useless too =(.
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first time protoss hasn't been nerfed in 15 patches iirc.
that reaper upgrade is gonna be a pain.
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Doesn't the 50 damage sieged tank still kill every zerg unit in the same amount of hits?
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Its ok, mech vs Zerg wont change much, it will be just a bit harder.. What Im afraid is, that mech vs Toss might be a way more harder now..
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On June 04 2010 09:07 xDaunt wrote:
Ouch for terrans. I'm not sure that I agree with reducing the siege damage like that -- seems kinda heavy-handed. I don't think that tanks are really the problem. Where is the viking range nerf? How about better maps that aren't so conducive to tank abuse?
Its interesting that you mention that since some of Blizzard's maps are poorly made. I would be interested in seeing if the pro-scene actually ends up using completely custom maps for their tournaments like in BW.
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do we really need more dirt cheap upgrades? i thought they wanted to increase strategical thinking, not just have a bunch of upgrades you might as well get because they are only 50/50
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Hmm the siege tank was definately too strong. Imba in tvz and tvt and really strong vs protoss. However maybe 60--> 50 was a too big nerf. Why not try 55 first? Or if made 50 the siege upgrade should be cheaper or perhaps make the siege-time/unsige time a little quicker.
However the reaper thing is just plain stupid by blizzard. Remove the speed upgrade, because the reaper is just useless as it is now. It definately need some kind of other upgrade. Perhaps a range upgrade or some other cool stuff.
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The tank nerf is probably overdone. I don't think anyone will use reapers after the extreme early game anyways.
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50dmg seems shitty but we will see
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Only thing that I might get annoyed at is the reduced hellion damage... Seriously I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain Hellions were just that overpowered or anything, anyone else agree?
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People complained about proxy reaper rushes.
Blizzard responds by making them stronger!
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On June 04 2010 09:09 prototype. wrote:
Doesn't the 50 damage sieged tank still kill every zerg unit in the same amount of hits?
If your fighting with just tanks then yes but less damage from tanks mean the zerg army will last longer against the bio.
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oh god, it burns. Scared it hurt tvp too much, damn.
People That don't know what they're talking about complained about proxy reaper rushes.
Blizzard responds by making them stronger!
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so many changes made over a period of time and people are still unhappy...wow
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On June 04 2010 09:09 NATO wrote:
Are tanks really that powerful? Seems not too long ago everyone was complaining that they were worthless because the cost so much gas compared to sc1. Plus with immortal, they have limited use vs toss.
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers.
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In the near future they will make the terran earn minerals / gas when they research some upgrade. 
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it will mean less splash damage asll well
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tanks will still 3 shots roaches so i really dont see how it will fix the z against mech terran, but need to play a couple of game to see if its really still the same
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Excellent patch. STILL not quite enough of a nerf to terran mech, but I understand that it's best to take each step slowly and am ecstatic blizzard has recognized the problem.
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can someone explain the hellion and thor nerfs in simpler terms?
im not sure why but i dont really understand the effect of those two
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you 3 shot the first roach just the same but its the splash that changes things atm you kill the first roach with 3 shots then the second and third die from 1....
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On June 04 2010 09:10 Foreplay wrote:
do we really need more dirt cheap upgrades? i thought they wanted to increase strategical thinking, not just have a bunch of upgrades you might as well get because they are only 50/50
Ya, I really dislike how terran infantry upgrades are so cheap they are no brainers.
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On June 04 2010 09:11 clan_iraq wrote:
People complained about proxy reaper rushes.
Blizzard responds by making them stronger!
yeah I don't get why they're making Terran things cheaper when they need to be make more expensive since Terrans always seem to have excess resources
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They should do something bout dark shrine, it just doesn't seem right. A structure without upgrade doesn't look too appealing. I think they should also make EMP drain some of the energy and not all of it cause it is really annoying for a toss player to have all these high templars and sentries and losing all the energy to 2-3 ghosts.
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On June 04 2010 09:12 DamonRJ wrote:
can someone explain the hellion and thor nerfs in simpler terms?
im not sure why but i dont really understand the effect of those two
Terran mech owns zerg -----> terran mech nerf
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Oh good they nerfed Zerg, damn imba race.
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Baa?21244 Posts
Thank god for siege Tank nerf...
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this is a sad day for terran siege tanks
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On June 04 2010 09:12 DamonRJ wrote:
can someone explain the hellion and thor nerfs in simpler terms?
im not sure why but i dont really understand the effect of those two
upgrades will effect them slightly less. It means those units will be less powerful late game. It doesnt effect early game at all.
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On June 04 2010 09:12 DamonRJ wrote:
can someone explain the hellion and thor nerfs in simpler terms?
im not sure why but i dont really understand the effect of those two
Usually when you research +1 attack on a hellion it adds +1 to it's base damage and +1 to it's bonus damage vs light, so you would be doing +2 vs light and +1 vs normal stuff. Now it's +1 vs everything.
they're basically slightly worse against zerglings and mutas.
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okay +3 tanks deal 65 now instead of 75. ultras have 500 hp and 6 armor.
+3 tanks did 69 damage to them. and that is 8 hits to kill. now +3 tanks deal 59 damage to them and that is 9 hits.
Two patches ago ultras took 7 to kill. and Pre ultra redo (when they had 600 hp) they took 9 hits to kill. ultras are back to original anti tank survivability, with added damage and bigger AOE.
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Do tanks do splash damage equal to main attack damage or less?
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On June 04 2010 09:14 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:11 clan_iraq wrote:
People complained about proxy reaper rushes.
Blizzard responds by making them stronger! yeah I don't get why they're making Terran things cheaper when they need to be make more expensive since Terrans always seem to have excess resources
bad terrans always have spare resources...
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This patch was almost exclusively a TvZ mech build change. Even though the other matchups also gets changed a bit, the overall trobules Z has had vs T mech hast to be the overall reason for the changes.
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I keep getting "Lost connection to Gateway" when I publish my updated maps. I've been getting this error since patch 14 and it's in english locale :/
I hope this patch does something but I doubt it.
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I actually really like this patch.
Now all we need is a slight nerf to EMP
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I might have to switch from terran. Massing siege tanks no longer destroys every unit ever.
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On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers.
how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks.
My hope is that they are doing something to make ravens more viable and maybe BC too, so they have to nerf siege tanks to balance in preparation for that.
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On June 04 2010 09:14 BeyondReal wrote:
They should do something bout dark shrine, it just doesn't seem right. A structure without upgrade doesn't look too appealing. I think they should also make EMP drain some of the energy and not all of it cause it is really annoying for a toss player to have all these high templars and sentries and losing all the energy to 2-3 ghosts.
You really just have to split up your army well and Feedback his ghosts whenever you can. I personally think EMP needs to be a projectile like in BW, instead of instant, to at least give us the chance to dodge it... even if it's a small chance.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks.
Have you, like, actually played any games like that lol -_____-
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On June 04 2010 09:15 im a roc wrote:
I might have to switch from terran. Massing siege tanks no longer destroys every unit ever.
Yeh, it just destroys 5/6 of them.
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On June 04 2010 09:15 Peanuts wrote:
I actually really like this patch.
Now all we need is a slight nerf to EMP
you already got that.
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On June 04 2010 09:06 Senx wrote:
This patch definantly didn't fix or improve on anything, from my point of view. Although the -10 dmg on siege tanks is a pretty large nerf but its still sidestepping the main issue(lack of AI overkill) while affecting other MU:s.
Early reaper harasses are going to be even more common now.
I wonder how much that tank nerf will affect the game in general but I agree. I think a better change would be for tanks to overkill again.
I don't know though.
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This should even things out a bit..mid game pushes won't be as strong, but Zerg ground will still get ripped apart in a straight fight.
Gonna have to keep dropping banelings me thinks.
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wth we didnt need another patch with only 3 days left.
I was looking forward to some sort of terran nerf but for some reason I feel very odd about this patch
anyways, thx for listening to the community in balance aspects blizzard
On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks. My hope is that they are doing something to make ravens more viable and maybe BC too, so they have to nerf siege tanks to balance in preparation for that.
decent terrans should be able to emp your immortals
as soon as thats done they just die sooo fast
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On June 04 2010 09:15 Peanuts wrote:
I actually really like this patch.
Now all we need is a slight nerf to EMP
Yes, take it all away from them.. :D Cmon, they just nerfed every Terran factory unit, could you give as some time or what..
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Bah, I was already loosing 90% of my TvZ, I guess here we go for the last 10%.
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Anyone have the splash damage data for a tank? Like percentage of damage done at some radius.
The damage change didn't do anything to head on attacks with zerglings (1shot) roaches (3shots) hydras (2shots) or banes (1shot).
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I don't mind the tank/thor damage nerf but leave the poor hellions alone :[
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Hellion and Tank nerf kinda hurts me abit as I love to mass hellions. The Thor buff should be good though vs muta..I wish void rays were considered light as I find it silly how a voidray can beat a thor..
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YEEEAAAHH TANK NERF FINALLY
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Can some terran player comment on the implications this will have on TvP. As a zerg player I understand these changes, but I've heard some terran say this will mess up tvp a bit. What exactly are they referring to?
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On June 04 2010 09:18 NuKedUFirst wrote:
Hellion and Tank nerf kinda hurts me abit as I love to mass hellions. The Thor buff should be good though vs muta..I wish void rays were considered light as I find it silly how a voidray can beat a thor..
Agreed Hellions are my favorite unit for Terran, an if they made Voidrays light it might give people a reason to use carriers instead?(Also are Carriers massive or armored?)
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On June 04 2010 09:09 NATO wrote:
Are tanks really that powerful? Seems not too long ago everyone was complaining that they were worthless because the cost so much gas compared to sc1. Plus with immortal, they have limited use vs toss.
Blizz patched the tank shooting mechanic or s/t to make them similar to BW tanks. That plus the amazing AI for tanks in SCII = tanks imba.
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I don't really get the thor anti-air nerf. It will still own the only unit the anti-air was designed to counter.
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I think the tanks AI is more the problem than the damage... they are still going to rape zerg
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On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks. My hope is that they are doing something to make ravens more viable and maybe BC too, so they have to nerf siege tanks to balance in preparation for that.
UHHHH... Tanks totally own immortals once there's a critical mass of tanks; which is waaaayyy less than 100 rofl. Units with splash and big range > units that can absorg 10 free hits with a short range.
ps. As a protoss player, this patch gets my seal of approval. First patch of the beta with no toss nerfs?!
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So when is this patch coming? Anybody have any guesses?
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On June 04 2010 09:22 FeLonius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks. My hope is that they are doing something to make ravens more viable and maybe BC too, so they have to nerf siege tanks to balance in preparation for that. UHHHH... Tanks totally own immortals once there's a critical mass of tanks; which is waaaayyy less than 100 rofl. Units with splash and big range > units that can absorg 10 free hits with a short range. ps. As a protoss player, this patch gets my seal of approval. First patch of the beta with no toss nerfs?!
last non protoss nerf patch wasnt too long ago, I think it was called.. patch 14
On June 04 2010 09:22 FeLonius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks. My hope is that they are doing something to make ravens more viable and maybe BC too, so they have to nerf siege tanks to balance in preparation for that. UHHHH... Tanks totally own immortals once there's a critical mass of tanks; which is waaaayyy less than 100 rofl. Units with splash and big range > units that can absorg 10 free hits with a short range. ps. As a protoss player, this patch gets my seal of approval. First patch of the beta with no toss nerfs?!
if you die with immortals to tanks without T emping you then you're doing something wrong.
For example by having all ur units as one big blob.
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On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks.
Theorycraft time:
If the tanks are seiged, then splash coupled with siege range would make a significant impact on the innortals, even through herdened shields (as each immortal is not only being hit by the shots being fired at it, but also every shot impacting another immortal next to it)
Kev
PS on-topic, I am a little surprised that p15 is out so soon after 14, though I welcome the tank nerf.
Of course, further AMM improvements are always welcome (as long as they do turn out to be improvements)
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On June 04 2010 09:18 NuKedUFirst wrote:
Hellion and Tank nerf kinda hurts me abit as I love to mass hellions. The Thor buff should be good though vs muta..I wish void rays were considered light as I find it silly how a voidray can beat a thor..
Thor buff?
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On June 04 2010 09:23 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
So when is this patch coming? Anybody have any guesses?
Tonight, and you can bet they're crunching to get it out because it's after 1700 Pacific time
In other words, be patient, it's coming when it's ready
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On June 04 2010 09:25 theqat wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:23 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
So when is this patch coming? Anybody have any guesses? Tonight, and you can bet they're crunching to get it out because it's after 1700 Pacific time In other words, be patient, it's coming when it's ready
Alright cool. Thanks man.
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On June 04 2010 09:23 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
So when is this patch coming? Anybody have any guesses?
I have guy on the inside and he said the patch is coming right NOW! Serious though quit living on the edge of your seat and go outside to get some sunshine =)
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its cold and rainy outside though
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On June 04 2010 09:26 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:23 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
So when is this patch coming? Anybody have any guesses? I have guy on the inside and he said the patch is coming right NOW! Serious though quit living on the edge of your seat and go outside to get some sunshine =)
What is this "sunshine" you speak of??? :o
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I think the thor nerf was needed. Even 1 thor unupgraded is pretty strong against muta but 3 wep thors were just silly.
I dont' see the hellion nerf making a difference at all, with the +10 from preigniter I don't think the weapon upgrades actually make much difference.
The tank nerf seems a bit excessive to me. I would have liked to see 55 instead of 50, but we will try it out.
The reaper buff is the upgrade out of left field in this patch. Reapers are just fine early game, they are an extrememly strong and popular opening. The problem with them is that their usability drops to 0 after about 5 minutes into the game. I would rather see the nitro pack upgrade dropped in favor of another upgrade that gives them late game viability (and perhaps requires armory so it can't be gotten too strong).
As for the immorta/tank argument, the reality is it doesn't matter. The reason that immortals aren't that good against tanks is because smart terrans have emp and other forces along with their tanks...so the immortal shields don't do that much. Immortals are fine units, but in good games its not like the early days of beta where a line of immortals would walk in the open field taking tank shots like it was nothing.
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Very nice broodlord nerf. Gotta agree with tank nerf for zergs benefit.
Reaper buffs? Really? Attempting to make viable late game? Don't agree with that as a necessity.
Thor AA reduction, not sure, guess its only upgrades. Same with hellions, seems weird but meh.
Gotta have a big toss patch soon?
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Good job with nerfs, just dont catch why to let reapers go faster ,...
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On June 04 2010 09:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:26 Rorschach wrote:On June 04 2010 09:23 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
So when is this patch coming? Anybody have any guesses? I have guy on the inside and he said the patch is coming right NOW! Serious though quit living on the edge of your seat and go outside to get some sunshine =) What is this "sunshine" you speak of??? :o
LMAO! But yeah I am in Arizona and its 95° today (got sunburns being out for a few hrs) and supposed to hit 103° on Monday! So take some of my extra sunshine/heat if you need some...
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4 shots for a siege tank to kill a stalker. this is sure going to help terrans not mass marauders tvp.
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Nooooooo! My precious tanks!!
10 damage nerf is wayyy too much, man. Why do you do this to me Blizzard, why?
After the constant toss nerf, here comes the T nerf. Vikings, Tanks, Hellions, Thors, what's next? T_T
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On June 04 2010 09:29 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote:On June 04 2010 09:26 Rorschach wrote:On June 04 2010 09:23 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
So when is this patch coming? Anybody have any guesses? I have guy on the inside and he said the patch is coming right NOW! Serious though quit living on the edge of your seat and go outside to get some sunshine =) What is this "sunshine" you speak of??? :o LMAO! But yeah I am in Arizona and its 95° today (got sunburns being out for a few hrs) and supposed to hit 103° on Monday! So take some of my extra sunshine/heat if you need some...
In Nevada buddy, hittin 106 this weekend lol. So I'll stay in my house with the AC. :D
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On June 04 2010 09:28 Tone_ wrote:
Very nice broodlord nerf. Gotta agree with tank nerf for zergs benefit.
Reaper buffs? Really? Attempting to make viable late game? Don't agree with that as a necessity.
Thor AA reduction, not sure, guess its only upgrades. Same with hellions, seems weird but meh.
Gotta have a big toss patch soon?
Still waiting for that Mothership and Carrier buff..
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On June 04 2010 09:29 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:27 TheAngelofDeath wrote:On June 04 2010 09:26 Rorschach wrote:On June 04 2010 09:23 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
So when is this patch coming? Anybody have any guesses? I have guy on the inside and he said the patch is coming right NOW! Serious though quit living on the edge of your seat and go outside to get some sunshine =) What is this "sunshine" you speak of??? :o LMAO! But yeah I am in Arizona and its 95° today (got sunburns being out for a few hrs) and supposed to hit 103° on Monday! So take some of my extra sunshine/heat if you need some...
This sunshine you speak of is a rare concept. Over here in seattle we have had overcast skies for the last 6 months. However, this "sunshine" should start coming in about a month.
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On June 04 2010 09:22 FeLonius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks. My hope is that they are doing something to make ravens more viable and maybe BC too, so they have to nerf siege tanks to balance in preparation for that. UHHHH... Tanks totally own immortals once there's a critical mass of tanks; which is waaaayyy less than 100 rofl. Units with splash and big range > units that can absorg 10 free hits with a short range. ps. As a protoss player, this patch gets my seal of approval. First patch of the beta with no toss nerfs?!
you forgot the reaper buff = protoss and zerg nerf.
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Siege Tank damage decrease effect disregarding splash:
4 hit against zealot instead of 3
2 hit marines with combat shields
Possible changes including splash:
Instead of 1 hit + splash for hydra kills, now it takes 2 hits or 1 hit + 2 splashes or more splashes basically?
anything else?
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On June 04 2010 09:30 intergalactic wrote:
Nooooooo! My precious tanks!!
10 damage nerf is wayyy too much, man. Why do you do this to me Blizzard, why?
After the constant toss nerf, here comes the T nerf. Vikings, Tanks, Hellions, Thors, what's next? T_T
Thats just what they want you to think... don't worry they'll something new to nerf for toss, But I do expect to Terran to get nerfed pretty badly due to all crying posts(Btw I'm fine with the -10damage for tanks)
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On June 04 2010 09:27 Karas wrote:
As for the immorta/tank argument, the reality is it doesn't matter. The reason that immortals aren't that good against tanks is because smart terrans have emp and other forces along with their tanks...so the immortal shields don't do that much. Immortals are fine units, but in good games its not like the early days of beta where a line of immortals would walk in the open field taking tank shots like it was nothing.
QFT. The Immortal vs Tank never really happens in real game, since other units are thrown into the equation.
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As a Zerg I can't wait to get harassed by reapers now, followed be hellions, banshees, and thor drops.
It just seems like ZvT is going to be a guessing game of how Terran is going to harass you! Do you get speedlings first for reapers/hellions or go lair for the banshees. =(
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Germany767 Posts
Now see what you have done! Shame on you.
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On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks. My hope is that they are doing something to make ravens more viable and maybe BC too, so they have to nerf siege tanks to balance in preparation for that.
In response to the above- mass tanks will destroy immortals from a fortified position because the splash will still hit too, and take away
if you have 10 tanks, and all 10 tanks hit all 100 immortals (lets pretend they were infinitely clumped), the tanks would kill them in two shots. The first shots would do 100 damage to each tank- 60 (now 50) damage reduced to 10, reducing their shields from 100 to 0. The next volley would do 600 to each (now 500)
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On June 04 2010 09:33 Forlorn wrote:
As a Zerg I can't wait to get harassed by reapers now, followed be hellions, banshees, and thor drops.
It just seems like ZvT is going to be a guessing game of how Terran is going to harass you! Do you get speedlings first for reapers/hellions or go lair for the banshees. =(
You can defend an early banshee harrass with queens while you go lair.
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On June 04 2010 09:24 weepingblades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks. Theorycraft time: If the tanks are seiged, then splash coupled with siege range would make a significant impact on the innortals, even through herdened shields (as each immortal is not only being hit by the shots being fired at it, but also every shot impacting another immortal next to it) Kev PS on-topic, I am a little surprised that p15 is out so soon after 14, though I welcome the tank nerf. Of course, further AMM improvements are always welcome (as long as they do turn out to be improvements)
dont need to theorycraft, someone posted a video of 66 tanks wiping the floor with 50 immortals, not even close. the guy who says 10 immortals might kill 100 tanks is beyond retarded
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lol @ people complaining about reaper buff, thats just so pathetic biased. it was like the worst upgrade in all the game, 100 gas for upgrade a little the speed of MAXIMUM TWO OR THREE FUCKING REAPERS. that upgrade should cost 10/10 or nothing at all.
i agree with the other changes too
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Yea this -10 dmg nerf is such Bull, blizzard sidestepping the core issue with mech play and instead just takes a giant nerf bat and hits as hard as possible on the staple terran unit.
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On June 04 2010 09:38 Senx wrote:
Yea this -10 dmg nerf is such Bull, blizzard sidestepping the core issue with mech play and instead just takes a giant nerf bat and hits as hard as possible on the staple terran unit.
I'm not to worried about the damage change but I'm not to happy that they took a shot at Hellions and Thors.(Poor Hellions )
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im afraid mech will be weak vs toss now (atleast not worth picking over bio)
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Well as a Terran player who uses tanks in every match (at least a few for defense) no matter which race I'm against, I honestly think this was due. Now maybe they'll consider dropping the gas cost to 100 or buffing the health a bit so it actually feels like a "tank" and not "light artillery".
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On June 04 2010 09:38 Senx wrote:
Yea this -10 dmg nerf is such Bull, blizzard sidestepping the core issue with mech play and instead just takes a giant nerf bat and hits as hard as possible on the staple terran unit.
Sidestepping the core issues seems to be something of a trend with these patches, eh? :\
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guess I'll just go back to raping Zerg with mass bioballs. so boring :-/
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While i like the reaper upgrade buff - I don't think any upgrade should be 50/50 (which is more or les a "might as well get it at this point") kind of upgrade.
Thank god about tanks and thors...They hit a lot of correct notes with this patch. It'll probably have to be toyed around with to get it just right, but this big change helps a lot I think.
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I think blizz is trying to make upgrades more useful. That might be the reason why the damage nerfs are happening all over the place. They wanna see more cases where +1 weps have a real advantage, as in killing a unit with less hits.
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I don't like the idea of making upgrades less important.......
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Before
![[image loading]](http://wallacetravelgroup.com/_fileupload/Image/tank-experience-pic.jpg)
After
![[image loading]](http://www.gizmology.net/images/tank11.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +Naw just kidding. Ill wait till I actually play with the tank to decide how big this nerf is. Nevertheless I was really wishing Terran gameplay would migrate MORE towards BW mech styles.
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On June 04 2010 09:10 Foreplay wrote:
do we really need more dirt cheap upgrades? i thought they wanted to increase strategical thinking, not just have a bunch of upgrades you might as well get because they are only 50/50
Completely agree with this. I know the game is all bout upgrades to make units viable all game long but its supposed to be a choice in upgrades, not just getting all of them easily while still being able to afford a massive army.
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Germany767 Posts
This makes me sad, they should have waited for us Zergs to completly destroy our terran opponents first Now it wont prove anything anymore^^
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On June 04 2010 09:44 imBLIND wrote:
I think blizz is trying to make upgrades more useful. That might be the reason why the damage nerfs are happening all over the place. They wanna see more cases where +1 weps have a real advantage, as in killing a unit with less hits.
In case you haven't noticed, upgrades got nerfed too >.<
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On June 04 2010 09:46 TheLittleOne wrote:This makes me sad, they should have waited for us Zergs to completly destroy our terran opponents first Now it wont prove anything anymore^^
I wanted to see TLO pwn some "imbalanced"(lol) terran mech as well D:
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ahh okay patch
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Bliz should just outsource all their balancing to Day9. He'd get the job done right. 8)
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patch 15? did I fast forward 2 weeks or is this really happening? lol
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8751 Posts
Promotion/relegation between Ladders? What does that mean?
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This is just depressing. I could careless about all changes besides the awful awful siege tank nerf. Doesn't change TvZ much, but hurts vs Toss quite a bit.
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On June 04 2010 09:46 TheLittleOne wrote:This makes me sad, they should have waited for us Zergs to completly destroy our terran opponents first Now it wont prove anything anymore^^
For once I'm against a terran nurf, terran mech was causing me to actually have to play different for once, I was really getting used to it.
Now, back to 3 base hydra/roach *rubs hands together*
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Why the fuck they patch and nerf so fast?? I dont get it.. They waited like month when Terrans couldnt do shit against 4gate Toss..
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Germany767 Posts
Promotion/relegation between Ladders? What does that mean?
I think its only about the placement matches and the way you climb up or fall from different ladder levels.
edit: first!
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On June 04 2010 09:50 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Promotion/relegation between Ladders? What does that mean?
I believe it means In-game ladders,such as playing between diamond and gold etc.
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On June 04 2010 09:50 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Promotion/relegation between Ladders? What does that mean?
Maybe you won't get relegated to a lower league after winning a game now.
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Terran mechs got nerfed hard, lol
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With the tank damage so low, what's the point of sieging up now?
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All this " QQ TERRAN MECH SO OP!! IMBA!! T_T " seems to have payed off. I hope you guys are happy that the "pillar" unit of the Terran army is looking more and more like it doesn't deserve it's name.
Also, at the beginning there was way too much bio play. Then, tanks got a buff and mech became cool. What are they trying to do, shift this back to the MMM boring crap? Every single mech unit got nerfed in 2 patches.
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I wanna hear Gretorp's opinion on the patch...
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On June 04 2010 09:42 IndecisivePenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:38 Senx wrote:
Yea this -10 dmg nerf is such Bull, blizzard sidestepping the core issue with mech play and instead just takes a giant nerf bat and hits as hard as possible on the staple terran unit. Sidestepping the core issues seems to be something of a trend with these patches, eh? :\
why would they mess with tanks? UGHHHHHH. The tank was perfect the way it was, only thing that needed changing was giving zerg some cannon fodder to smack the tanks (IE 1 food roaches), and lower the attack speed in siege mode so marauders dont roast to tank fire. The damage was fine especially considering its cost and supply.
Mannnnnn, I really dont wanna rely solely on the marauder ball again
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I don't think it's a big nerf, why all the whining about the nerfs ?
Tanks will still one-shot things and their powerfull (overpowered) Ai allow them to not overkill units...
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On June 04 2010 09:53 intergalactic wrote:
All this " QQ TERRAN MECH SO OP!! IMBA!! T_T " seems to have payed off. I hope you guys are happy that the "pillar" unit of the Terran army is looking more and more like it doesn't deserve it's name.
Also, at the beginning there was way too much bio play. Then, tanks got a buff and mech became cool. What are they trying to do, shift this back to the MMM boring crap? Every single mech unit got nerfed in 2 patches.
Maybe it's because Blizzard said they don't want tanks to be like in BW (pillars).
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I'm not sure if nerfing mech was the right direction to go. The problem wasn't that mech units were too powerful (well okay, the Thor does hard counter mutas a little too effectively, especially considering that vikings, marines, HSM, and turrets were already totally viable defenses against mutas).
I think this just messes up T v P balance while doing very little about Z v T. Zerg still has no viable way to even put a dent in a mech army. Like an above poster pointed out, the damage nerf on tanks doesn't make them any less dangerous to hydras, roaches or lings (though it may help Ultras a bit).
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A bit confused about the continuous nerf on brood lords because it really doesn't do anything. Only the armor and hp nerf really did anything. The base dmg nerf before, and the upgrade dmg nerf now will have no effect, just like the upgrade nerf on hellions and thors won't really have an effect. I think that's another one of those side stepping the issue changes. I would actually think upping brood lord dmg (same dps, or even higher) and a decent attack speed decrease (less broodlings) would be the logical change to try out.
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I think this helps T v Z but really hurts T v P balance.
Tanks were already pretty unpopular in T v P.
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Cool, next patch maybe they'll tell us how the promotion works!
Early game harass buff but late game mech nerf. Personally, this is the first patch in a while that I'm not that pissed off about.
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Why the hell are so many people acting like terran mech is now impossible? Yes, tanks were nerfed by 10 damage. We'll see how this plays out, but i assure you mech/tanks aren't instantly useless.
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Germany767 Posts
I wonder if it will help tvt or make it really stupid, like mass marauder.
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On June 04 2010 09:52 Everlong wrote:
Why the fuck they patch and nerf so fast?? I dont get it.. They waited like month when Terrans couldnt do shit against 4gate Toss..
took them 12 patches till they gave terran fair chance to win vs Z in straight game not in cheesy way.
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Blizzard nerfed the Hellion a bit and buffed the Reaper. i think thats because they want more people of higher Leagues to play Reaper as harrass unit over hellion.
i think this is mainly a playtesting reason inspired by the huge overreaction of players when a unit gets nerfed or buffed ("omg shitroach nerfed again... i gonna play imbamech terran!" something like that ).
the overall Mech nerf shouldn't be that bad (even if 10 less dmg on tank seems hard) but it's also more to show the community, that they try to listen to the players (and mech being to strong especially against Zerg was ha huge issue).
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Im ok bout Zerg, just scared to see MMM ball masacred by templars n colossus, cos this is huge mech nerf against P..
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On June 04 2010 09:58 TheLittleOne wrote:
I wonder if it will help tvt or make it really stupid, like mass marauder.
Is it such a big nerf in tvt? When more tanks come into play they will still demolish grouped units.
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On June 04 2010 09:58 TheLittleOne wrote:
I wonder if it will help tvt or make it really stupid, like mass marauder.
I am also dreading the return of the mass marauder. I have to look at the exact numbers of how this affects the number of shots a tank needs to kill something but ten damage is ALOT and for a slow shooting unit like tanks, one more shot to kill something is significant.
It seems that the nerf fails to reach the supposed purpose though, zerg were having problem with mid and late game terran mech, where you have a lot of tanks/thors. But it seems to me that these nerfs just cripples mech in the earlier parts of the game where you have less tanks whereas when you have enough tanks to stack up the splash damage, a base damage nerf doesn't really do anything.
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Holy crap...no Toss changes.
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That tank nerf is huge.
Unfortunately this patch shows that whining = changes, which should put Zerg in a good position as the Zerg playerbase is the whiniest I've ever seen on a videogame.
Hopefully this changes the current state of TvT however.
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This helps. I don't think it totally fixes the problem, but it goes a long way.
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Like the reasoning of that + 10 hp was = We want to give this unit maybe a one shot more in a big fight to make it more vaible.
Next patch - 10 dmg = ???
For god sake, why touch tank, just nerfing Thor AA would make tanks less useful, I just dont get it.. Screw that, lets wait for release..
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On June 04 2010 10:03 iEchoic wrote:
That tank nerf is huge.
Unfortunately this patch shows that whining = changes, which should put Zerg in a good position as the Zerg playerbase is the whiniest I've ever seen on a videogame.
Prepare to see a lot of changes to whatever the Zerg playerbase whines about most frequently. That tank nerf is HUGE.
I think I can live with the tank damage nerf(Got to see how this works out vs Toss first)but they better leave Hellions an Thors alone.
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On June 04 2010 09:57 link0 wrote:
I think this helps T v Z but really hurts T v P balance.
Tanks were already pretty unpopular in T v P.
Are you kidding me? When i PvT and i saw the 3/4 rax and no fact i jumped for joy. When i saw the 2 rax/1 fact/1 start port i got sad. When i saw the 1 rax 2 fact i wanted to cry. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to lose almost an entire army to 6 tanks? Fact is Marauders do a hell of a job against toss, so few T's went the tank route. P's started countering the rax pump and T brought out the tanks+rines/viking and aboslutly raped shit. 6 tanks+Planetary=You aint gettin into my shit, NO MATTAH WHAT.
Honestly i dont really Agree with the tank nerf -10. I think they should of fixed the no over kill, or made it 35(60) so our zealots would actualy stand a chance.
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Tanks didn't need nerfing. Maybe give the zerg another ability or something. They do less damage than they did in BW. Maybe slow attack speed a bit or takes a little longer for siege mode.
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How much damage does a fully upgraded siege tank do now?
I think unsieged tanks are going to be a lot more popular.
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Like ok, but lets make it 100 gas, or shorter research time..
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On June 04 2010 10:03 iEchoic wrote:
That tank nerf is huge.
Unfortunately this patch shows that whining = changes, which should put Zerg in a good position as the Zerg playerbase is the whiniest I've ever seen on a videogame.
Hopefully this changes the current state of TvT however.
It does seem that way. Even my friend who hasn't lost to a Terran mech army in 1v1 ladder is QQing about mech.. makes no sense.
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On June 04 2010 10:06 FaTLiP wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:57 link0 wrote:
I think this helps T v Z but really hurts T v P balance.
Tanks were already pretty unpopular in T v P. Are you kidding me? When i PvT and i saw the 3/4 rax and no fact i jumped for joy. When i saw the 2 rax/1 fact/1 start port i got sad. When i saw the 1 rax 2 fact i wanted to cry. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to lose almost an entire army to 6 tanks? Fact is Marauders do a hell of a job against toss, so few T's went the tank route. P's started countering the rax pump and T brought out the tanks+rines/viking and aboslutly raped shit. 6 tanks+Planetary=You aint gettin into my shit, NO MATTAH WHAT. Honestly i dont really Agree with the tank nerf -10. I think they should of fixed the no over kill, or made it 35(60) so our zealots would actualy stand a chance.
But then there would be no reason to get siege mode.. lol
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On June 04 2010 10:07 iEchoic wrote:
How much damage does a fully upgraded siege tank do now?
I think unsieged tanks are going to be a lot more popular.
why would u do unsieged tanks when u have marauder
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They need to make it so T can beat broodlords and corruptors now
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On June 04 2010 10:07 iEchoic wrote:
How much damage does a fully upgraded siege tank do now?
I think unsieged tanks are going to be a lot more popular.
The thing is, if you are going to use unsieged tanks you might as well just make the faster, stimmable marauders for less resources.
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This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed.
Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up
sighs.
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On June 04 2010 10:08 lolastic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:07 iEchoic wrote:
How much damage does a fully upgraded siege tank do now?
I think unsieged tanks are going to be a lot more popular. why would u do unsieged tanks when u have marauder
On June 04 2010 10:08 ymirheim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:07 iEchoic wrote:
How much damage does a fully upgraded siege tank do now?
I think unsieged tanks are going to be a lot more popular. The thing is, if you are going to use unsieged tanks you might as well just make the faster, stimmable marauders for less resources.
I haven't directly tested it, but from experience it seems like Siege Tanks (not sieged) are far more effective against stalkers than marauders. Anyone have any input here?
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On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs.
Come on, it's not that bad. You're just new to this feeling because it's the first time terran got a nerf.
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On June 04 2010 10:08 yomi wrote:
They need to make it so T can beat broodlords and corruptors now
^
This
Zerg air is extremely hard to counter as T, given that Mutas beat Vikings, and this is going to make it even harder.
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Just wondering because people keep mentioning it but what is this no overkill function of the tank.
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siege should have been nerfed to 35+20 (armored)
marauders lose stim or have their damage changed to 10 +5(armored)
reapers cant cliff jump without nitro pack
Raven heart seeker missle buffed significantly
Roach down to 1 food
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On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:
how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks.
My hope is that they are doing something to make ravens more viable and maybe BC too, so they have to nerf siege tanks to balance in preparation for that.
It's mostly due to splash damage. The tank volleys start depleting the hardened shield on several immortals at once. The splash damage is enough to trigger the hardened shield effect and all it takes is 10 hits for Immortal shields to fall off.
Sounds like a high number but when you reach something like ~12 siege tanks immortals really go down way too fast for them to even be considered tank counter in even cost/supply. It just doesn't happen.
Honestly, immortals only seem to work when you have like 5-6 tanks or less. After that you better start going Air because everything on the ground gets melted away.
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On June 04 2010 10:11 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs. Come on, it's not that bad. You're just new to this feeling because it's the first time terran got a nerf.
Terran have got lots of nerfs... lots of buffs too thats all. Still doesn't sit well with me. I don't mind the hellion / thor change. I do mind the reaper change since I think reapers are a lame unit to begin with.
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Upon further thought, the tank nerf is actually going the right direction for TvT. Tanks are far, far too strong in TvT and can beat every single land unit in the game.
These nerfs look pretty crippling against Zerg and Protoss though. It's hard to remember over all the Zerg whining, but before Mech became popular, Zerg could just manhandle everything Terran could make. This siege tank nerf is gigantic and if it makes mech fall out of favor, there's going to be severe imbalance again, which will be increased by the thor nerf (which is the only unit terran has that can beat mutas besides marines, which aren't very good in TvZ).
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On June 04 2010 10:07 NexRex wrote:
Tanks didn't need nerfing. Maybe give the zerg another ability or something. They do less damage than they did in BW. Maybe slow attack speed a bit or takes a little longer for siege mode.
They do A TON more dmg then in BW if you look at other things than just plain stats.
with shift-queu-atk and the no-overkill-AI.
You can't run in a Ling and force 5 Tanks to shoot at it and use the time they need to shoot again to close in. Same with Zealotbombs.
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On June 04 2010 10:11 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs. Come on, it's not that bad. You're just new to this feeling because it's the first time terran got a nerf.
No, I have no problem with Terran nerfs. I agree with every patch change previous to this patch, including every previous Terran nerf.
The thing is, they did this patch way too fast and did it due to solely whining on the forums. Not enough time to see if it TRULY was too powerful. There were lots more things to be explored, and also they failed to realize the main points -> that mech was only that powerful on steppes of war/LT/incineration zone due to being small maps, and also that sensor towers are what really needed to be nerfed.
other than that everything was loooking to be fine, now they are going backwards first time in 15 patches
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Will see if Mech is enough nerf for Z ^^
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On June 04 2010 10:11 kxr1der wrote:
Just wondering because people keep mentioning it but what is this no overkill function of the tank.
In BW one thing you'd see is people sending in lone units in front of the army to eat seige hits. Also you'd see zealot bombs and such. Basically the second the tanks saw something they would ALL shoot.
Now with the better AI, only enough tanks shoot to kill the enemy units and the others save their shot for next unit. Also once the battle starts they just don't target the first units they see and seem to spread out their attacks pretty well.
The new AI makes it very hard to break tank lines because of how "smart" they are and you can't trick them into wasting shots now.
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On June 04 2010 10:11 kxr1der wrote:
Just wondering because people keep mentioning it but what is this no overkill function of the tank.
basically tanks currently change target when an other unit is about to kill an opponent's unit. This results in the fact that no "shot" is wasted, all damage cycle actually DO damage.
In BW, tanks would overkill, that means that you could have 5 tanks attacking the same unit at the same time and doing so you would lose lots of damage that would've been done to other targets.
No overkill:
4 tank vs 10 stalker: tanks shot. 2 stalker die, tank shot again, all stalkers die.
With overkill:
4 tank vs 10 stalker: tanks shot. 1 stalker die. Tank shot again, an other stalker dies. Stalkers are in range, tank die.
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On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs.
blizzard should try and harness their caving in to whining ability for Bnet 2.0
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Sigh, I can understand fixing a strong strategy, but was nerfing EVERY mech unit's attack necessary? I've considered switching from Terran to Protoss not because of race imbalances but just because I hate TvT so much... this might just be what I needed to make my decision.
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Hey I main Zerg and even though I have lost a lot to Terran mech, I don't think this was the right way to balance.
I have to admit I don't have a good alternative either, but just my opinion.
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Tanks didn't need a nerf to overall damage, they needed a nerf to % splash damage like how they changed ultralisks to 33%. If the splash was 33%-20% instead of 50%-25%, groups of tanks would be significantly less OP.
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On June 04 2010 10:16 avilo wrote:
The thing is, they did this patch way too fast and did it due to solely whining on the forums.
You are right, Blizzard did 0 internal testing and you know this how?
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On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs.
i love how you're so self righteous about how all the zerg whiners are somehow inferior to you in all your posts, but look at you now. although your absolutely genius ghostmech build vs toss will be mostly ruined, it's just funny to see you be such a hypocrite.
i'm glad mech got nerfed a bit, except for the hellions.. come on, i love those guys. =/
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On June 04 2010 10:11 Spidinko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs. Are you tired of listening to other people? Oh, have we a solution for you! Join Bnet2.0 for only $60 and enjoy peace and quiet!
Spidinko: I LOVE the signature!
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On June 04 2010 10:20 Jinsin5 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:16 avilo wrote:
The thing is, they did this patch way too fast and did it due to solely whining on the forums.
You are right, Blizzard did 0 internal testing and you know this because you are a Blizzard Dev.
Mech just started getting popular a couple weeks ago. There is no possible way enough testing was done in time. There are strategies that may take a month or more to find a counter, it's the natural cycle of RTS gaming. Things fall in and out of favor, there wasn't even enough time to see if it would die away like 99% of strategies that become popular throughout an RTS' lifespan.
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Wait. Waaaait....
Wasn't "we wanted tanks to be able to squeeze in ONE more shot just to help them out a little bit" like 2 weeks ago?
now its "REMOVED TEN DAMAGE WHAT THE FUCK WERE WE THINKING!!!!????"
I really don't get it.
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On June 04 2010 10:20 Jinsin5 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:16 avilo wrote:
The thing is, they did this patch way too fast and did it due to solely whining on the forums.
You are right, Blizzard did 0 internal testing and you know this how?
And didn't look at recent pro level games and look at all the data they have from thousands of games being played everyday
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On June 04 2010 10:20 karebear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs. i love how you're so self righteous about how all the zerg whiners are somehow inferior to you in all your posts, but look at you now. although your absolutely genius ghostmech build vs toss will be mostly ruined, it's just funny to see you be such a hypocrite. i'm glad mech got nerfed a bit, except for the hellions.. come on, i love those guys. =/
Seriously poor damn Hellions didn't do anything wrong its a shame really
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at least biomech still works, untill they nerf bio once that starts working... oh well. if you cant adapt cry nerf.. either way wont change much. Just hope they are more reasonable with balance changes next patch around.
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Terran got a nerf.
Zerg got a nerf.
Protoss was left alone
I'm pretty happy.
Why do people whine about every single patch change? I swear, no matter what the changes are there is always a group of people that cry wolf - "oh noes!!! tanks do 10 less dmg now!!! the whole game is ruined!!!" People really need to play the game first before QQing on the forums. Honestly, it's not like in a TvX match-up the Terran army barely survived an evenly matched fight with a tank and some marines left over. We did a tournament in my area last week and the marine/tank/raven push raped everything there.
It is so ridiculously hard to break a turtling terran, which allows the terran to then spend his energies elsewhere - powering units, getting upgrades, harassing, etc. Pre-patch 15 from my experience, if the terran turtled up and macroed off of one base, if they played even semi-well they would have a better, more robust army, than their opponent (if the T harassed well, of course). These changes will only make the game better, imo.
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On June 04 2010 10:25 pash1k wrote:
Why do people whine about every single patch change? I swear, no matter what the changes are there is always a group of people that cry wolf - "oh noes!!! tanks do 10 less dmg now!!! the whole game is ruined!!!" People really need to play the game first before QQing on the forums. Honestly, it's not like in a TvX match-up the Terran army barely survived an evenly matched fight with a tank and some marines left over. We did a tournament in my area last week and the marine/tank/raven push raped everything there.
It is so ridiculously hard to break a turtling terran, which allows the terran to then spend his energies elsewhere - powering units, getting upgrades, harassing, etc. Pre-patch 15 from my experience, if the terran turtled up and macroed off of one base, if they played even semi-well they would have a better, more robust army, than their opponent (if the T harassed well, of course). These changes will only make the game better, imo.
Which is why Terran is so powerful at high-level play and regularly wins pro-level tournaments.
Oh, wait.
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Mech just started getting popular a couple weeks ago. There is no possible way enough testing was done in time. There are strategies that may take a month or more to find a counter, it's the natural cycle of RTS gaming. Things fall in and out of favor, there wasn't even enough time to see if it would die away like 99% of strategies that become popular throughout an RTS' lifespan.
It's extremely bold to make claims that blizzard just goes onto other forums, looks at the recent hot topic, and makes changes accordingly, with no testing, then makes the actual changes with random numbers taken out of the air, and not test the number changes after.
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On June 04 2010 10:20 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:11 Spidinko wrote:On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs. Are you tired of listening to other people? Oh, have we a solution for you! Join Bnet2.0 for only $60 and enjoy peace and quiet! Spidinko: I LOVE the signature!
Thanks!  About time someone noticed =)
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On June 04 2010 10:21 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:20 Jinsin5 wrote:On June 04 2010 10:16 avilo wrote:
The thing is, they did this patch way too fast and did it due to solely whining on the forums.
You are right, Blizzard did 0 internal testing and you know this because you are a Blizzard Dev. Mech just started getting popular a couple weeks ago. There is no possible way enough testing was done in time. There are strategies that may take a month or more to find a counter, it's the natural cycle of RTS gaming. Things fall in and out of favor, there wasn't even enough time to see if it would die away like 99% of strategies that become popular throughout an RTS' lifespan.
They are freaking releasing the game in a couple of months with just a couple of beta weeks left after the downtime. How the hell are they suppose to wait a month for people to discover the right counter? You clearly can't have played or watched much zerg versus terran if you don't understand why they did what they did.
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On June 04 2010 10:27 Jinsin5 wrote:Show nested quote +
Mech just started getting popular a couple weeks ago. There is no possible way enough testing was done in time. There are strategies that may take a month or more to find a counter, it's the natural cycle of RTS gaming. Things fall in and out of favor, there wasn't even enough time to see if it would die away like 99% of strategies that become popular throughout an RTS' lifespan.
It's extremely bold to make claims that blizzard just goes onto other forums, looks at the recent hot topic, and makes changes accordingly, with no testing, then makes the actual changes with random numbers taken out of the air, and not test the number changes after.
Well, I didn't say that, but thanks for the opinion?
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this patch is fine. whiners gonna whine.
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On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs.
Oh dont worry, you will get used to it
Delicious Terran tears.
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On June 04 2010 09:16 SirNeb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:11 Mastermind wrote:
Actually, mass tanks rape mass immortals in my experience. Immortals are only strong when the tanks are in small numbers. how could that be true? wouldn't surprise me if 10 immortals can kill 100 sieged tanks.
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............. you must be hard to surprise
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This is definitely a step in the right direction. Mech NEEDED a nerf.
Sigh @ the reapers though, it's just because noone ever gets that upgrade so now they're just making it cheap. I wish all the infantry upgrades weren't so damn cheap though
We're gonna see like 6 reapers coming into a base early now instead of just 1 or 2
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On June 04 2010 10:11 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:08 yomi wrote:
They need to make it so T can beat broodlords and corruptors now ^ This Zerg air is extremely hard to counter as T, given that Mutas beat Vikings, and this is going to make it even harder.
Are you kidding me? If a zerg goes broodlord AND muta, you should be happy as terran. You can't afford to make both as zerg and expect to win against an equally skilled opponent. Thor neutrilize muta and viking owns corruptor.
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On June 04 2010 10:29 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:27 Jinsin5 wrote:
Mech just started getting popular a couple weeks ago. There is no possible way enough testing was done in time. There are strategies that may take a month or more to find a counter, it's the natural cycle of RTS gaming. Things fall in and out of favor, there wasn't even enough time to see if it would die away like 99% of strategies that become popular throughout an RTS' lifespan.
It's extremely bold to make claims that blizzard just goes onto other forums, looks at the recent hot topic, and makes changes accordingly, with no testing, then makes the actual changes with random numbers taken out of the air, and not test the number changes after. Well, I didn't say that, but thanks for the opinion?
???
"There is no possible way enough testing was done in time."
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On June 04 2010 10:26 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:25 pash1k wrote:
Why do people whine about every single patch change? I swear, no matter what the changes are there is always a group of people that cry wolf - "oh noes!!! tanks do 10 less dmg now!!! the whole game is ruined!!!" People really need to play the game first before QQing on the forums. Honestly, it's not like in a TvX match-up the Terran army barely survived an evenly matched fight with a tank and some marines left over. We did a tournament in my area last week and the marine/tank/raven push raped everything there.
It is so ridiculously hard to break a turtling terran, which allows the terran to then spend his energies elsewhere - powering units, getting upgrades, harassing, etc. Pre-patch 15 from my experience, if the terran turtled up and macroed off of one base, if they played even semi-well they would have a better, more robust army, than their opponent (if the T harassed well, of course). These changes will only make the game better, imo. Which is why Terran is so powerful at high-level play and regularly wins pro-level tournaments. Oh, wait.
So, you're suggesting that Blizzard is justified in nerfing something only if that strategy wins lots of BETA tournaments? Get real. They work with what they have. I don't agree with everything that Blizzard does, but the amount of QQing that I see just in this thread is ridiculous - the worst part is, it's over the smallest things. A bit hypocritcal, imo, to say "blizzard gave in to all the whining with this patch, why don't they fix bnet 2.0?" and then proceed to whine.
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Just because they try out different values for damage and HP during the BETA doesnt mean they will release the game this way. Odds are they will release a game different than the last beta version that we end up playing after seeing what worked and what didnt. Its really frustrating to see people whining before they even give the patch a chance and assuming that this is the way the game will be released. Please be patient.
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United States7166 Posts
dmg lowered from 60 to 50 on siege tank..
i think tanks will still melt everything on zerg ground really fast, and zergs will still have problems going ground.
still 3 shots roach and still amazing targeting system (no overkill) and splash is what's going to be the issue.
hope i'm wrong and that there's something im missing here, but so far it doesn't look like it will really change much for zvt
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oh yah i completley forgot about the speedreapers buff.. time to 9rax untill that gets cried at as well, then we will never get to mech in the first place.
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On June 04 2010 10:31 Subversion wrote:This is definitely a step in the right direction. Mech NEEDED a nerf. Sigh @ the reapers though, it's just because noone ever gets that upgrade so now they're just making it cheap. I wish all the infantry upgrades weren't so damn cheap though We're gonna see like 6 reapers coming into a base early now instead of just 1 or 2
I'm a little confused how is reducing the cost of the speed upgrade going to double the amount of reapers you'd see from normal harassment? O.o
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Really annoying to see people say things like " Blizzard just nerfed T mech because everyone complained about it ", maybe they had reasons to complain?
It's not the first game that blizzard makes, they know how to balance a game >.>
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The reaper upgrade isn't going to do much because it takes forever to research.
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I would've preferred if they made tanks 4 food or something instead of lowering their damage. No big deal, though
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8751 Posts
The Leagues are Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum/Diamond. But the patch notes say there have been changes made to promotion/relegation between Leagues and Ladders. I understand promotion/relegation between Leagues. What is promotion/relegation between Ladders?
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Terran got a nerf. Good. Dunno if decreasing reaper movement speed upgrade cost was necessary but we'll see.
One thing for sure, NO terran player can bitch. the race has A LOT of ressources to work with and a 10 nerf to tanks is not something terran players should be pissed about.
Zerg got nerf to broodlords, we'll see how this plays out. I see BL's as the Zergs working version of the protoss mothership. They can change the tide of war.
Protoss, while I'm glad they didnt nerf them, they have done more than enough already, I'm kinda dissapointed they didnt boost up the MS somehow, or boosted the storm of HT, or worked on the carrier....so much to do so little time
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On June 04 2010 10:32 pash1k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:26 iEchoic wrote:On June 04 2010 10:25 pash1k wrote:
Why do people whine about every single patch change? I swear, no matter what the changes are there is always a group of people that cry wolf - "oh noes!!! tanks do 10 less dmg now!!! the whole game is ruined!!!" People really need to play the game first before QQing on the forums. Honestly, it's not like in a TvX match-up the Terran army barely survived an evenly matched fight with a tank and some marines left over. We did a tournament in my area last week and the marine/tank/raven push raped everything there.
It is so ridiculously hard to break a turtling terran, which allows the terran to then spend his energies elsewhere - powering units, getting upgrades, harassing, etc. Pre-patch 15 from my experience, if the terran turtled up and macroed off of one base, if they played even semi-well they would have a better, more robust army, than their opponent (if the T harassed well, of course). These changes will only make the game better, imo. Which is why Terran is so powerful at high-level play and regularly wins pro-level tournaments. Oh, wait. So, you're suggesting that Blizzard is justified in nerfing something only if that strategy wins lots of BETA tournaments? Get real. They work with what they have. I don't agree with everything that Blizzard does, but the amount of QQing that I see just in this thread is ridiculous - the worst part is, it's over the smallest things. A bit hypocritcal, imo, to say "blizzard gave in to all the whining with this patch, why don't they fix bnet 2.0?" and then proceed to whine.
I agree. What do you really want Blizzard to do? Either way there's always endless complaining. Blizzard 1) listens to the community and makes a change. Well then Blizzard has no idea what they're doing and listens to the lowest common denominator. Or 2) Blizzard does not listen. Then they're just a money hungry company who doesn't care about the players. It's just lose/lose for them isn't it
I mean, get real. And in truth I'd rather have a company who listens to the players than one who doesn't.
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On June 04 2010 10:32 pash1k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:26 iEchoic wrote:On June 04 2010 10:25 pash1k wrote:
Why do people whine about every single patch change? I swear, no matter what the changes are there is always a group of people that cry wolf - "oh noes!!! tanks do 10 less dmg now!!! the whole game is ruined!!!" People really need to play the game first before QQing on the forums. Honestly, it's not like in a TvX match-up the Terran army barely survived an evenly matched fight with a tank and some marines left over. We did a tournament in my area last week and the marine/tank/raven push raped everything there.
It is so ridiculously hard to break a turtling terran, which allows the terran to then spend his energies elsewhere - powering units, getting upgrades, harassing, etc. Pre-patch 15 from my experience, if the terran turtled up and macroed off of one base, if they played even semi-well they would have a better, more robust army, than their opponent (if the T harassed well, of course). These changes will only make the game better, imo. Which is why Terran is so powerful at high-level play and regularly wins pro-level tournaments. Oh, wait. So, you're suggesting that Blizzard is justified in nerfing something only if that strategy wins lots of BETA tournaments? Get real. They work with what they have. I don't agree with everything that Blizzard does, but the amount of QQing that I see just in this thread is ridiculous - the worst part is, it's over the smallest things. A bit hypocritcal, imo, to say "blizzard gave in to all the whining with this patch, why don't they fix bnet 2.0?" and then proceed to whine.
I don't mind the -10 damage nerf but to be fair this thread had a tiny TINY amount of QQ compared to the mountains of "OMFG Mech is imba!!!@!" threads floating around.
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Everyone should stop thinking about TvZ, and start thinking about how good this change could be for TvT, I strongly believe that thor/tank or bio builds just became viable again.
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little off topic but what's QQ? (still trying to get in the whole SC lingo lol)
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As a Terran player I can care less about the nerfs to upgrades and tanks. Should make the game more interesting and a little more difficult for Terran.
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On June 04 2010 10:38 Kindred wrote:
little off topic but what's QQ? (still trying to get in the whole SC lingo lol)
QQ = crying eyes
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On June 04 2010 10:38 Kindred wrote:
little off topic but what's QQ? (still trying to get in the whole SC lingo lol)
That's not even sc lingo... that's lingo thats about as old as the internet itself.
Crying eyes.
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United States7166 Posts
yeah the 10 dmg nerf on tank doesnt seem to make almost any difference vs zerg. you can figure this out by simple math or what i did which is change their dmg in a map editor and do some tests
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Oh man TvT will be Reaper rush vs Reaper rush
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On June 04 2010 10:35 Liquid`NonY wrote:
The Leagues are Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum/Diamond. But the patch notes say there have been changes made to promotion/relegation between Leagues and Ladders. I understand promotion/relegation between Leagues. What is promotion/relegation between Ladders?
good catch Nony hopefully it is something good like ladders are now ranked (read: diamond 1 is better then diamond 2) and you get promoted between ladders... but I doubt it
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On June 04 2010 10:38 Twinweapon wrote:
As a Terran player I can care less about the nerfs to upgrades and tanks. Should make the game more interesting and a little more difficult for Terran.
I wouldn't say its going to make Terran play anymore interesting if anything it might push people bad towards Bio game play.
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Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke.
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On June 04 2010 09:14 Zurles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:12 DamonRJ wrote:
can someone explain the hellion and thor nerfs in simpler terms?
im not sure why but i dont really understand the effect of those two Usually when you research +1 attack on a hellion it adds +1 to it's base damage and +1 to it's bonus damage vs light, so you would be doing +2 vs light and +1 vs normal stuff. Now it's +1 vs everything. they're basically slightly worse against zerglings and mutas.
that's a good thing, everyone knows hellions are way to good against mutas
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I'm assuming with how late it's getting that the patch is going to be done during the beta downtime yea?
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On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke.
Some noobs ? Dude go read this thread : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129070
On topic : It still amazes me how people are complaining before even testing how the changes affect the gameplay
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(zerg player) ... hallelujah ;DDDDD. Also excited to see the ladder changes -- if they're even noticeable.
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On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke.
Yeah just a bunch of noobs complained, it wasn't a list of good players or anything ..oh wait...
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On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke.
You're right, every single person that thought that Terran mech was stronger than their options, and hence a little too strong was "some noob."
Do people understand the point of nerfing/buffing? It's not just to get rid of strategies that are too strong in every single MU. It is just as important to balance the race internally - Blizzard has to balance various strategies that a race might consider, and make them on a similar viability level. If Terrans only go mech in every single MU (not saying that's happening), then even if the strategy is not "too strong" they still need to change it so that going bio won't put anyone at a huge disadvantage. This kind of internal balance is hard - they have to make more than one strat viable without messing up the TvX MU.
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If this is not enough, I guess they'll have to move them to 4 supply instead of 3, which does seem to be a bit off compared to Zealots and Roaches.
I don't think it adresses the main problem though. At 200/200, armies will still melt, so it only makes the way to get there tougher, and might change the whole builds rather than keeping them in line.
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Do Tanks do 50 dmg for the whole splash area or is it decreased on anything but the main target like on ultralisk?
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Thank you god for the tank nerf, you really exist
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On June 04 2010 10:43 Syner wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:14 Zurles wrote:On June 04 2010 09:12 DamonRJ wrote:
can someone explain the hellion and thor nerfs in simpler terms?
im not sure why but i dont really understand the effect of those two Usually when you research +1 attack on a hellion it adds +1 to it's base damage and +1 to it's bonus damage vs light, so you would be doing +2 vs light and +1 vs normal stuff. Now it's +1 vs everything. they're basically slightly worse against zerglings and mutas. that's a good thing, everyone knows hellions are way to good against mutas
Yea I was starting to worry that Blizzard wouldn't see the problem lol
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Good changes, I would be happy if the game came out tomorrow.
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On June 04 2010 10:47 pash1k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. You're right, every single person that thought that Terran mech was stronger than their options, and hence a little too strong was "some noob." Do people understand the point of nerfing/buffing? It's not <i>just</i> to get rid of strategies that are too strong in every single MU. It is just as important to balance the race internally - Blizzard has to <b>balance various strategies that a race might consider, and make them on a similar viability level.</b> If Terrans only go mech in every single MU (not saying that's happening), then even if the strategy is not "too strong" they still need to change it so that going bio won't put anyone at a huge disadvantage. This kind of internal balance is hard - they have to make more than one strat viable without messing up the TvX MU.
Yeah its a good point but going Bio Vs a Zerg who isn't retarded is a death wish sadly lol.
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On June 04 2010 10:39 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:38 Kindred wrote:
little off topic but what's QQ? (still trying to get in the whole SC lingo lol) That's not even sc lingo... that's lingo thats about as old as the internet itself. Crying eyes.
This is wrong.
It comes from ALT+QQ in WC2 an SC1 which was used to quit the game.
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Try to keep the changes in perspective; the hellion and thor changes really aren't that significant; they wont affect the gameplay at all until you get upgrades, and even then they'll only deal 1 damage less per upgrade against light units (for a maximum of 3 less damage overall), while still doing the exact same amount to non-light units.
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On June 04 2010 10:45 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. Yeah just a bunch of noobs complained, it wasn't a list of good players or anything ..oh wait...
When it comes to Zerg it doesn't matter because the entire Zerg playerbase is as whiny as a bunch of children. They've whined since day 1 of the beta about EVERYTHING.
What is it that attracts these people to Zerg?
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On June 04 2010 10:45 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. Yeah just a bunch of noobs complained, it wasn't a list of good players or anything ..oh wait...
Before mech was even hugely popular in us/eu Tester called it a joke unit because of how op it was. TESTER the top protoss in Asia and quite possibly the world
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On June 04 2010 10:49 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:39 PanN wrote:On June 04 2010 10:38 Kindred wrote:
little off topic but what's QQ? (still trying to get in the whole SC lingo lol) That's not even sc lingo... that's lingo thats about as old as the internet itself. Crying eyes. This is wrong. It comes from ALT+QQ in WC2 an SC1 which was used to quit the game.
thought it was from wc3...
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Lowering tank damage by 1/6? Seems excessive. Zerg players just didnt have enough time to come up with mainstream strategies to beat mech. I lost ALL THE TIME in TvZ to things like nydus worms, tunneling roaches, losing thors in a battle and zerg switches to muta, corrupter/broodlord, getting my army caught out of position, etc... but of course the race that started totally imba ends up getting what they want because their opinions of their own skill are inflated. And nerfing factory upgrades? wtf? I just don't get it.
And to top it all off, blizzard slaps terrans in the face by making up for massive nerfs with a decrease in cost of a useless upgrade. grrrr. They should make an upgrade that requires armory or something that makes reapers not completely useless after 5 minutes into the game.
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hellion OP! NERFNERF!
really just can lol at that . random kneejerk changes ftw!
srsly whatever.
dont think it will affect any of my matchups expect making roach/hydra 1a a bit stronger again in zvt.
and we all know 1a is the ultimate goal blizzard has for their casuzals in evry situation eh
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On June 04 2010 10:50 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:45 PanN wrote:On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. Yeah just a bunch of noobs complained, it wasn't a list of good players or anything ..oh wait... When it comes to Zerg it doesn't matter because the entire Zerg playerbase is as whiny as a bunch of children. They've whined since day 1 of the beta about EVERYTHING. What is it that attracts these people to Zerg?
Maybe you should think about stopping baiting people with your posts and contribute?
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On June 04 2010 10:48 GodIsNotHere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:47 pash1k wrote:On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. You're right, every single person that thought that Terran mech was stronger than their options, and hence a little too strong was "some noob." Do people understand the point of nerfing/buffing? It's not <i>just</i> to get rid of strategies that are too strong in every single MU. It is just as important to balance the race internally - Blizzard has to <b>balance various strategies that a race might consider, and make them on a similar viability level.</b> If Terrans only go mech in every single MU (not saying that's happening), then even if the strategy is not "too strong" they still need to change it so that going bio won't put anyone at a huge disadvantage. This kind of internal balance is hard - they have to make more than one strat viable without messing up the TvX MU. Yeah its a good point but going Bio Vs a Zerg who isn't retarded is a death wish sadly lol.
And how is this a bad thing?
You mean you have to change your build according to the race your playing?
Gosh.
Racial differences?
Gee.
I don't get the bitching here or the defending of the idea.
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On June 04 2010 10:53 pash1k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:50 iEchoic wrote:On June 04 2010 10:45 PanN wrote:On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. Yeah just a bunch of noobs complained, it wasn't a list of good players or anything ..oh wait... When it comes to Zerg it doesn't matter because the entire Zerg playerbase is as whiny as a bunch of children. They've whined since day 1 of the beta about EVERYTHING. What is it that attracts these people to Zerg? Maybe you should think about stopping baiting people with your posts and contribute?
There is about 4 threads whining about Mech at all times.
Do you tell those people to stop baiting and contribute?
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On June 04 2010 09:02 SirNeb wrote:
not sure about the siege tanks nerf, was it really a problem?
Yeah. It was.
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On June 04 2010 10:09 avilo wrote:This is the first patch out of 15 patches that is pretty bad on blizzard's part. They gave in to bnet forum whining + some whining here instead of waiting to see what developed. Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up sighs.
LOL, that's because it's the first patch out of 15 where Terran has been nerfed. Cry more plz.
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50/50 cost upgrades are pretty stupid for a strong ability like nitro packs.
tank nerf seems good.
not sure what effect hellion / broodlord upgrade changes wil do.
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On June 04 2010 10:54 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:53 pash1k wrote:On June 04 2010 10:50 iEchoic wrote:On June 04 2010 10:45 PanN wrote:On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. Yeah just a bunch of noobs complained, it wasn't a list of good players or anything ..oh wait... When it comes to Zerg it doesn't matter because the entire Zerg playerbase is as whiny as a bunch of children. They've whined since day 1 of the beta about EVERYTHING. What is it that attracts these people to Zerg? Maybe you should think about stopping baiting people with your posts and contribute? There is about 4 threads whining about Mech at all times. Do you tell those people to stop baiting and contribute?
Just because other people do something never justifies you to do the same. Be the bigger man/woman. The way to solve "zerg whining about everything in the world" isn't to whine, nor is it to bait people with your posts.
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On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke.
Its not just about TvZ....TvT is also one dimensional because tanks eliminate any other possible ground unit, including "tank" units like Rauders and Thors. When a unit makes a match so "obvious", that unit is probably a little OP.
That being said, this change isn't significant enough to change anything really, because tanks still splash such a huge portion of most units HP.
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terran nerfs????
the rapture is beginning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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On June 04 2010 10:54 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:53 pash1k wrote:On June 04 2010 10:50 iEchoic wrote:On June 04 2010 10:45 PanN wrote:On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. Yeah just a bunch of noobs complained, it wasn't a list of good players or anything ..oh wait... When it comes to Zerg it doesn't matter because the entire Zerg playerbase is as whiny as a bunch of children. They've whined since day 1 of the beta about EVERYTHING. What is it that attracts these people to Zerg? Maybe you should think about stopping baiting people with your posts and contribute? There is about 4 threads whining about Mech at all times. Do you tell those people to stop baiting and contribute?
those thread were filled with people disagreeing and TLO as the only T/Z player saying its fine.
wat?
really i think blizz really did something way too fast (2-3 weeks give players a chance to adapt! ohwait...") but watheveer. let them do the qq related "balance". they did in for all races and now its apparently Ts turn to get the "lol we dunno lets just do something " nerf. :>
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You people going at each other remind me of the xbox/ps3 fanboys on sites like gametrailers.com where they rage at each other just because they prefer one console to the other
sad
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10 damage nerf is pretty epic, since any unit with 50/100/150 hp and ANY armor will now take that less of a hit. Just another reason to not use siege mode tbh. Save your mobility, and have ridiculously high attack rates and still good damage.
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holy shit how do they keep decreasing terran upgrade costs, this shit is fkin ridiculous
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I don't think the 50/50 was too drastic, as you have to sacrifice getting one of the other and overall more usefull upgrades from your tech lab early on. I mean, there's no way marauder slow should be cheaper than nitro pack.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On June 04 2010 10:56 teamsolid wrote:Same thing happened with the command and conquer community, players whined horribly for things that really were not imbalanced and EA gave it to them, and look where cnc ended up
Those such as yourself lol?
Glad Blizzard is finally taking a step in the right direction, but the smart AI is still going to make tanks rape. Probably needs some other form of nerf.
Nitro Pack "buff" seems very inconsequential, but whatever. Reapers aren't going to change at all with this change =[
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They should have removed the smart targeting feature only.
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Wow Blizzard does seem to be listening to a lot of you guys. I think terran mech is really fun to play against! Hopefully after the the tank nerf people will still go mech as it is STILL strong! No protoss changes? Fix carriers Blizzard =]
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Mid-game and late game reapers are viable...It's just that no one has the balls to change up their strategies.
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As a Terran player, I like how the tank change affects TvZ. Basically the only differences seem to be the following:
- 1 tank shot + 2 hellion shots instead of 1 + 1: hardly matters, cause most of the time it's 2 tank shots killing hydra's anyway. It's not like you'll want to make hydra now.
- Always 3 tank shots to kill a roach, instead of 2 shots at 2 or 3 weapon upgrades: Quite a big change for mid to lategame against roaches, but assuming they'll stay at 2 supply I think it's definitely justified.
- More shots to kill an ultra (don't feel like doing the math :p): This is probably where the intention of the change lies. Seems quite fair cause blizzard does seem to want this unit to be the one that can break mech one way or another, and it didn't seem like it was quite capable.
So what we might see is zergs pressuring Terrans to keep the upgrades and tank count as low as possible and try to bust with ultra. We'll see how it turns out.
I dislike a little bit how it takes away the incentive to upgrade mech, Then again, you'll kinda have to if you want to not die to upgrades ultra's. So I guess it's ok.
What I dislike the most, however, is how it affects TvP, taking 1 more shot to kill both zealots and stalkers seems pretty huge to me, even knowing there are other units around. They were already kinda hard to incorporate into a TvP build considering the fact they were reasonably easy to counter, don't think i'll be making them in the match-up anymore.
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On June 04 2010 11:06 ZlaSHeR wrote:
10 damage nerf is pretty epic, since any unit with 50/100/150 hp and ANY armor will now take that less of a hit. Just another reason to not use siege mode tbh. Save your mobility, and have ridiculously high attack rates and still good damage.
Another reason? You are nuts. But if you want to make my life easier by not using siege mode, just go ahead.
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Not looking forward to more reaper rushes, but I am looking forward to increased (even if it's a little bit, again) ultralisk viability in the late game. ^^
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the siege tank nerf is pretty insightful. Tanks under a high caliber player are really a pain in the ass to stop.
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On June 04 2010 09:02 SirNeb wrote:
not sure about the siege tanks nerf, was it really a problem?
YES it was look at some replays of pro terran players, it was horrendous.
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awesome patch
high five anybody?
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On June 04 2010 11:26 Bob300 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:02 SirNeb wrote:
not sure about the siege tanks nerf, was it really a problem? YES it was look at some replays of pro terran players, it was horrendous.
It was a problem in the current meta-game. It wasn't too long ago those 'pro' T players deemed tanks 'useless'. They shouldn't have nerfed based on 1-2 weeks of meta-game change. No zerg even tried to use broodlords which is plain stupid.
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On June 04 2010 09:07 Hidden_MotiveS wrote:
Tanks a lot Blizzard T_T
*facepalm*
I like this patch, except for not fixing the ultras/archons.
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On June 04 2010 10:50 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:45 PanN wrote:On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. Yeah just a bunch of noobs complained, it wasn't a list of good players or anything ..oh wait... When it comes to Zerg it doesn't matter because the entire Zerg playerbase is as whiny as a bunch of children. They've whined since day 1 of the beta about EVERYTHING. What is it that attracts these people to Zerg?
lol so good question. a lot of idiots choose that race it seems :/
i cant believe after a huge nerf to the tanks there are some retards whining about the reapers, serious brain problems there...
im pretty sure if they buff the ravens hp by 1 there will be a lot of threads of zergs whining about it.
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wow about time, thank youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
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For every noob Zerg that complains about mech because they lost to it a few times there is a noob Terran that says mech isn't imbalanced because they lost a few games to Zerg.
Face it, Blizzard isn't reading the posts from Bronze league players on this site when determining patches, they're looking at all the statistics they have.
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hehe I was just about to complain how I hate the waiting period between patch notes and b.net going down. guess what!
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lol 4 shots to kill tank vs. tank now... I guess one can unsiege and dodge the last blow if done quickly. This is pretty drastic meta-game change!
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Wow...GOOD PATCH! It's best when Blizzard leaves Protoss untouched.
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Of course smart targeting effects every unit in the game.
Hydras, Immortals, Broodlords... its just not as noticeable.
They cant just remove that feature from Tanks only.
Pheonix's are pretty good to lift them? Also, Dropping stuff right on tanks would probably be a good idea. At least force them to turret n shit like on SC1.
Hope we don't see any more damage redux, next they should remove that extra 10 HP they gave tanks not too long ago- if they still prove to be Whine-Inducing.
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Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit
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On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:Show nested quote +
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit
Care to elaborate?
Your stay at tl might not be so long if thats how you're going to post.
On topic, the tank nerf was needed I guess. Nothing else really gamebreaking, except maybe that reapers will be more annoying than ever >.<
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On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:Show nested quote +
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit
Its cuz zergs were crying too much.
Making upgrades less important is definitely not the way to go.
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I have a feeling that 50/50 on reapers nitro pack is sooo strong, lets say i wanna put out 2 reaps with speed in patch 14, i would do rax on 10, then pop 2 gaz to make sure i have that 150 gas for 1st reaper and nitropack doing so, my nitro will be ready when i get my 2nd reaper out and on way while nitro finishes and now, i can skip the 2nd gas and still have enuff for packs and initial reapers nooo problem, i mean getting the 2nd gas on my build was pretty much the biggest hit.. Reap harass +CC on 14 here i come.
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I know I'm reaper rushing as soon as the patch drops lol.
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On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:Show nested quote +
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit
of course you are sad.
a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad.
oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage.
come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them.
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You guys just keep on reaper rushing. Just more free wins for me.
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People need to calm down. I'm Terran player myself and the damage output on tanks is just ridiculous. Its way too high. I also think the damage output of immortals is way to high, but thats kind of tuned down with their low range.
I think we need a bunch of games with that patch and certain situation to see if -10 damage is too much of a nerf or not. In fact; all damage nerfes always mean longer and more forgiving fights and thats exactly what all we e-Sport fanatists want to see. Right now, you ran into Tanks with a Zerg force because you made that decision that you can handle the Terran army - you could not. All your force is down and you are dead.
With that nerf, you can probably get away with damaged, but at least alive untis so you can probably recover.
I don't really understand the Hellion and Thor nerf, but lets see how it works out
I also do think reapers with speedupgrade should be as fast as speedlings (at least when not on creep) because right now they are slower even on normal ground.
It will also make TvT less of a pain in the ass, because Tanks won't get 3-shot by other tanks now.
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On June 04 2010 11:42 cursor wrote:
Of course smart targeting effects every unit in the game.
Hydras, Immortals, Broodlords... its just not as noticeable.
They cant just remove that feature from Tanks only.
If you mean that they don't overkill, nope, this is wrong. Anything that doesn't deal damage instantly will happily overkill (seriously, go try it with hydras or marauders or something). Tanks deal damage instantly so they don't overkill on their primary target.
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10 damage doesnt seem like much, but it will be interesting to see how this affects the splash damage they dish out.
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yay for more reaper harass.....
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The nitro upgrade needed reduced. Who the hell ever dropped 100 gas for an early harass. Now at least it will be viable vs zerg imo.
@Butigroove, do you just wonder the forums looking for posts of inadequate length, or is it just my lucky day?
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On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them.
His post didn't even mention tanks. I think the thor and hellion nerf was completely unnecessary.
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Somebody already said this, but I imagine blizzard collected plenty of stats on terran mech play from many, many thousands of games across all servers. Just like the roach nerf, I'm sure they have the numbers.
If it turns out too much of a nerf, they'll get rebuffed someday. No harm done.
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On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them.
If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win.
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On June 04 2010 11:50 tubs wrote:
You guys just keep on reaper rushing. Just more free wins for me.
Reapers do a lot more than just rush to win. Gives Terran plenty of time to build up / tech.
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On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win.
Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded.
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ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol
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On June 04 2010 11:56 Ideas wrote:
ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol
They give a useless unit some stock, and you call them "dumb"
Have you ever seen reapers even used successfully past the 5 minute mark? This doesnt change anything.
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On June 04 2010 11:56 Ideas wrote:
ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol
I'm a Terran player and I feel your pain no joke. Reapers are so lame.... but with 50/50 there is almost no reason not to use them anymore.
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LOL, reaper buff?
spd reap rush is going to be fun.
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Good changes and it doesn't screw up terran synergy.
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On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded.
ok seriously guys come on. It's not just random scrub diamond players that thought it was imba
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129070¤tpage=5#98
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On June 04 2010 12:00 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded. ok seriously guys come on. It's not just random scrub diamond players that thought it was imba http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129070¤tpage=5#98
Yeah sure, I'm just saying most players in Diamond are retarded and thats why this change is so drastic. I don't think Terran needed nerfing, I think Zerg needed the changes if anything ( to make up for it ).
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The change to the upgrades of hellion and Thor do not seems to have any noticeable effect at all, its a good intention, but it may have unintended consequences.
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On June 04 2010 12:02 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:00 kNyTTyM wrote:On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded. ok seriously guys come on. It's not just random scrub diamond players that thought it was imba http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129070¤tpage=5#98 Yeah sure, I'm just saying most players in Diamond are retarded and thats why this change is so drastic. I don't think Terran needed nerfing, I think Zerg needed the changes if anything ( to make up for it ).
fair enough. I too think it is drastic
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On June 04 2010 12:02 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:00 kNyTTyM wrote:On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded. ok seriously guys come on. It's not just random scrub diamond players that thought it was imba http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129070¤tpage=5#98 Yeah sure, I'm just saying most players in Diamond are retarded and thats why this change is so drastic. I don't think Terran needed nerfing, I think Zerg needed the changes if anything ( to make up for it ).
Based on what evidence?
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On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them.
Lol, stop embarassing yourself man, he didn't write anything about tanks, just about thors and hellions. Seriously people, at least read what you quote...
And I must say I don't like how Blizzard lowers the imporatnce of upgrades too. I don't care about weaker damage output of tanks and whatever, but upgrades are dynamic and very important part of the game. If something, they should make upgrades more important...
The same with lowering cost of various terran infantry upgrades. They should leave the cost alone (or even increase it) but make the upgrade stronger. I don't want cheap wortless shit, I want pricy upgrade, but which make noticeable difference.
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On June 04 2010 12:04 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:02 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 12:00 kNyTTyM wrote:On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded. ok seriously guys come on. It's not just random scrub diamond players that thought it was imba http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129070¤tpage=5#98 Yeah sure, I'm just saying most players in Diamond are retarded and thats why this change is so drastic. I don't think Terran needed nerfing, I think Zerg needed the changes if anything ( to make up for it ). Based on what evidence?
What are you asking evidence for? I'm agreeing that Zerg needed an answer, and Terran didn't need to get nerfed against Protoss in the process.
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On June 04 2010 11:58 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:56 Ideas wrote:
ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol They give a useless unit some stock, and you call them "dumb" Have you ever seen reapers even used successfully past the 5 minute mark? This doesnt change anything.
the reaper is a horribly designed unit that is probably the most shallow in the game. amazing in the 1st 4 minutes, completely useless afterward except as a super expensive scout. This buff just makes them a bigger pain in the ass for the 1st 4 minutes.
they should of addressed the reaper a long time ago with an effort to make them good in the later stages of the game instead of this.
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On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them.
Guess what dude, your 25 hydra's will still evaporate in 2 seconds, cause the nerf doesn't affect tank performance vs hydra at all. They'll still die in 2 shots, so you still won't be able to a-move to victory.
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Siege tank damage is nerfed, but is 10 damage going to matter that much when there are 15 of them firing on your units?
And the things that really upset me are the constant zerg tier3 nerfs. Brood lords are basically the only unit that can break terran mech, and now they're being nerfed. they were already fragile and situational enough.
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How many of you ever try pushing out before +2 attack upgrade in full mech except against silly players who stop building units? You probably haven't more than once or twice. 60 damage siege tanks and 3 shot to muta Thor just don't have the umph that so many have complained about. It just gets run over, and that's gg because mech doesn't have the production to be able to afford a lost push like that. Well guess what? With +2 you now have 60 damage siege tanks and 3 shot to muta Thor.
ker-splat
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On June 04 2010 12:09 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:58 Energizer wrote:On June 04 2010 11:56 Ideas wrote:
ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol They give a useless unit some stock, and you call them "dumb" Have you ever seen reapers even used successfully past the 5 minute mark? This doesnt change anything. the reaper is a horribly designed unit that is probably the most shallow in the game. amazing in the 1st 4 minutes, completely useless afterward except as a super expensive scout. This buff just makes them a bigger pain in the ass for the 1st 4 minutes. they should of addressed the reaper a long time ago with an effort to make them good in the later stages of the game instead of this.
Exactly. This only makes reapers MORE annoying in the first minutes of the game. They won't change late game much if any.
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On June 04 2010 12:09 tfmdjeff wrote:
Siege tank damage is nerfed, but is 10 damage going to matter that much when there are 15 of them firing on your units?
And the things that really upset me are the constant zerg tier3 nerfs. Brood lords are basically the only unit that can break terran mech, and now they're being nerfed. they were already fragile and situational enough.
Blizzard is really pressing ultralisks as much as possible. Now it takes 11 shots from a tank to kill ultra instead of 9.
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were a lot of people getting air upgrades for broodlords and owning with them or is that just a random nerf?
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On June 04 2010 12:09 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:58 Energizer wrote:On June 04 2010 11:56 Ideas wrote:
ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol They give a useless unit some stock, and you call them "dumb" Have you ever seen reapers even used successfully past the 5 minute mark? This doesnt change anything. the reaper is a horribly designed unit that is probably the most shallow in the game. amazing in the 1st 4 minutes, completely useless afterward except as a super expensive scout. This buff just makes them a bigger pain in the ass for the 1st 4 minutes. they should of addressed the reaper a long time ago with an effort to make them good in the later stages of the game instead of this.
This is a good point but I don't know what could possibly be done to make the unit less "shallow."
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On June 04 2010 12:09 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:58 Energizer wrote:On June 04 2010 11:56 Ideas wrote:
ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol They give a useless unit some stock, and you call them "dumb" Have you ever seen reapers even used successfully past the 5 minute mark? This doesnt change anything. the reaper is a horribly designed unit that is probably the most shallow in the game. amazing in the 1st 4 minutes, completely useless afterward except as a super expensive scout. This buff just makes them a bigger pain in the ass for the 1st 4 minutes. they should of addressed the reaper a long time ago with an effort to make them good in the later stages of the game instead of this.
What I think would be good is some sort of either like anti armor gun or machine gun that they could set up. Be an upgrade, and slow them down tremendously, but maybe fgive armor/health/dps? I'm not sure. Or let them 'morph' into a unit.
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On June 04 2010 12:06 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:04 Baarn wrote:On June 04 2010 12:02 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 12:00 kNyTTyM wrote:On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded. ok seriously guys come on. It's not just random scrub diamond players that thought it was imba http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129070¤tpage=5#98 Yeah sure, I'm just saying most players in Diamond are retarded and thats why this change is so drastic. I don't think Terran needed nerfing, I think Zerg needed the changes if anything ( to make up for it ). Based on what evidence? What are you asking evidence for? I'm agreeing that Zerg needed an answer, and Terran didn't need to get nerfed against Protoss in the process.
I am curious to why you disagree with the change rather than a blanket statement that people in diamond are retarded.
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On June 04 2010 12:11 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:09 Ideas wrote:On June 04 2010 11:58 Energizer wrote:On June 04 2010 11:56 Ideas wrote:
ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol They give a useless unit some stock, and you call them "dumb" Have you ever seen reapers even used successfully past the 5 minute mark? This doesnt change anything. the reaper is a horribly designed unit that is probably the most shallow in the game. amazing in the 1st 4 minutes, completely useless afterward except as a super expensive scout. This buff just makes them a bigger pain in the ass for the 1st 4 minutes. they should of addressed the reaper a long time ago with an effort to make them good in the later stages of the game instead of this. This is a good point but I don't know what could possibly be done to make the unit less "shallow."
How about when you get a engineering bay up you have a +30 hp upgrade that takes quite awhile? Or maybe give them the bomb throwing ablity like in old beta, except you research it at EB and you can just hit and run, maybe use it on units? Anything would have been better really.
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I saw a T player use reapers behind the marines.
As long as they did not die, it seems that they mow the shit out of zerg lings in large chunks.
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Welp, time to take out my rage by reapering some noobs.
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On June 04 2010 12:12 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:06 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 12:04 Baarn wrote:On June 04 2010 12:02 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 12:00 kNyTTyM wrote:On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded. ok seriously guys come on. It's not just random scrub diamond players that thought it was imba http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=129070¤tpage=5#98 Yeah sure, I'm just saying most players in Diamond are retarded and thats why this change is so drastic. I don't think Terran needed nerfing, I think Zerg needed the changes if anything ( to make up for it ). Based on what evidence? What are you asking evidence for? I'm agreeing that Zerg needed an answer, and Terran didn't need to get nerfed against Protoss in the process. I am curious to why you disagree with the change rather than a blanket statement that people in diamond are retarded.
Oh well if you want that evidence I can only tell you from my experience playing in Diamond and pre-patch 13 Platinum. I've very rarely lost to Z players, not because mech is OP, because they are engaging mech / never harassing / among other things. Seriously, at Diamond level.
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On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded.
But it's perfectly fine for a Terran to 1a to win. Just not Zerg.
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... is it just me or does this seem like it's just going to make mech players turtle even harder?
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On June 04 2010 12:11 aznhockeyboy16 wrote:
were a lot of people getting air upgrades for broodlords and owning with them or is that just a random nerf?
Yeah i was wondering this too... I didnt see many builds kicking around where zerg got air weapons haha
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On June 04 2010 12:16 Grimjim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded. But it's perfectly fine for a Terran to 1a to win. Just not Zerg.
Mech can't 1 a victory they need to 1e, think next time! good grief
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With the time and money it takes to go heavy spire units, I didn't know anyone went beyond 1/0
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On June 04 2010 12:11 kNyTTyM wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:09 tfmdjeff wrote:
Siege tank damage is nerfed, but is 10 damage going to matter that much when there are 15 of them firing on your units?
And the things that really upset me are the constant zerg tier3 nerfs. Brood lords are basically the only unit that can break terran mech, and now they're being nerfed. they were already fragile and situational enough. Blizzard is really pressing ultralisks as much as possible. Now it takes 11 shots from a tank to kill ultra instead of 9.
Is that with 0 armor or the +4 tier armor upgrades? I'd like to see those numbers; I would of course simply test it myself, but...yea, bnet is down. So, what numbers did you use?
Personally, I am glad to see terran is finally getting something nerfed...
On June 04 2010 12:18 Sputty wrote:
Mech can't 1 a victory they need to 1e, think next time! good grief
Also, lol'ed.
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On June 04 2010 12:18 Sputty wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:16 Grimjim wrote:On June 04 2010 11:55 DooMDash wrote:On June 04 2010 11:54 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 11:50 ShadezOwnage wrote:On June 04 2010 11:43 D3lta wrote:
Hellion
Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
Thor
Anti-air weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
What a bunch of bullshit of course you are sad. a terran player who saw a million zerg units blow up in a few shots is sad. oh but you know, i should have been doom dropping and nydusing all over and should have had this huge macro advantage. come on now. everyone knows you can just push across the map pretty much untouched with enough tanks and AA next to them. it was a joke. I am not talking about private league pros, i am talking about the average plat/lowdiamond player, which is a TON of us. Seeing 25 hydras get blown up in about 2 seconds because they strayed into the 1234 range of a tank is not how the game was meant to be played. nor was tanks being so strong that they just moved up slowly with cover and you had no chance of beating them. If you attack a full mech army head on and get raped, thats your fault. You can't ask blizzard to nerf shit just because you're a lower level player and you want to 1a to win. Thats exactly how I feel. So many Zergs even in Diamond just playing retarded. But it's perfectly fine for a Terran to 1a to win. Just not Zerg. Mech can't 1 a victory they need to 1e, think next time! good grief
We need to 1d from time to time as well you know.
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Guess what dude, your 25 hydra's will still evaporate in 2 seconds, cause the nerf doesn't affect tank performance vs hydra at all. They'll still die in 2 shots, so you still won't be able to a-move to victory.
Which leads me to ask the big question. Did this actually address anything zerg is complaining about? Top level zerg players complaints seem to be directed at late game tanks owning everything on the ground, while the rest of the T army is dedicated to countering tank counters (i.e. viking/raven/thor/hellion). The thing is, tanks are still going to own everything on the ground late game. The only thing that will change that is to nerf tanks to a point where certain armies can click into them on the ground. This would effectively destroy the unit as we know it, and drastically change a racial staple that has existed since the dawn of SC. So naturally no one wants this, or at least they think they don't. Eventually zerg will probably find a way to counter mech, that will have nothing to do with this tank nerf (Sen has already been doing some good stuff on this front). This feels like the immortal 10 sec production time token nerf. Didn't really change anything but it bought some time untell players figured out you can just spam marauders into fast immo push.
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OMG why did they nerf tanks? i believe rauders are the one that should be nerfed...
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Blizzard is so dumb. How is the SC2 seige tank more exciting when you make siege mode and unsieged mode increasingly the same?
The dichotomy of siege vs unsieged in SC1, and siege range vs non was what made it so exciting. Blizzard is foolish to do this. They should have fixed the AI so tanks wouldn't smart acquire targets anymore.
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On June 04 2010 12:26 AnxietE wrote:
OMG why did they nerf tanks? i believe rauders are the one that should be nerfed...
rauders are overrated... quit your complaining.
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On June 04 2010 12:30 0neder wrote:
How is the SC2 seige tank exciting
The dichotomy of siege vs unsieged in SC1, and siege range vs non was what made it so exciting. Blizzard is foolish to do this. They should have fixed the AI so tanks wouldn't smart acquire targets anymore.
^ fix't?
And to actually add something to this discussion...I think tanks need not to fire so RIDICULOUSLY fast when in unsieged mode...they are just way too fast. Slowing the RoF down when unsieged would probably lead to a more varietal dichotomy, no?
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Maybe Blizzard nerfed Mech in hopes that Terrans would start using the most uninteresting unit in the game again. Sigh....well the Marauder-light period was great while it lasted.
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The margin by which the best (read: asian) zerg players are stomping any and all terrans, which was already significant, just got larger
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I personally think its great they're nerfing damage across the board. They have been doing this to a ton of units with each patch (no protoss nerfs this time, but they got it a lot in the past).
Actually allowing units to survive for more than 2 seconds should be pretty fun .
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On June 04 2010 12:35 HuskyTheHusky wrote:I personally think its great they're nerfing damage across the board. They have been doing this to a ton of units with each patch (no protoss nerfs this time, but they got it a lot in the past). Actually allowing units to survive for more than 2 seconds should be pretty fun .
I prefer to see more blood and guts per second personally.
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Finally a little help vs the imba T
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On June 04 2010 12:35 HuskyTheHusky wrote:I personally think its great they're nerfing damage across the board. They have been doing this to a ton of units with each patch (no protoss nerfs this time, but they got it a lot in the past). Actually allowing units to survive for more than 2 seconds should be pretty fun .
^ QFT, totally agree. Hey, maybe now we'll actually be able to micro a few units so battles last longer than 12 seconds!!! I like the way DPS is going down en totale.
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So much crying and counter-crying in this thread.
Disclaimer: I'm a Zerg player.
From my perspective, this does not change TvZ mech at all. The upgrades make practically no difference in either the case of Thors or Hellions. What really kills mutalisks is a certain critical number of Thors and smart defense, not an upgrade. There was a mathematical sweet spot with the upgrades before, but it came out so late that it didn't really even matter.
Missing the +1 per upgrade vs. Light is going to make practically no difference at all for Hellions either.
Tanks now do 10 less damage in siege mode. That's going to make practically no difference. The only even remotely visible difference it could make is having splash not be quite so powerful. Now you can lose 80% of your army in 2 seconds instead of 90%.
Trust me, no Zergs are gonna man up and a-move into your mech army now. It's still pretty much the same game as before. To all the Terran players out there: do your mech builds exactly as before and see if you notice any difference at all. My guess is you won't or you'll only notice a difference with 1 or 2 tanks. After you get more tanks, your army is still going to be unapproachable by any sane Zerg player.
Reaper upgrade changes nothing.
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I mean think about SC1. Units generally had LESS health than in SC2. All I can picture in my head is reavers blowing up 5 lings in one shot, or lurkers making 20 marines disappear into nothing but blood. That worked very well in SC1 and you could still micro your units to avoid shots. Maybe what we need is more visible projectiles that we have the ability to dodge like lurker spikes or scarbs.
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On June 04 2010 12:40 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
So much crying and counter-crying in this thread.
Disclaimer: I'm a Zerg player.
From my perspective, this does not change TvZ mech at all. The upgrades make practically no difference in either the case of Thors or Hellions. What really kills mutalisks is a certain critical number of Thors and smart defense, not an upgrade. There was a mathematical sweet spot with the upgrades before, but it came out so late that it didn't really even matter.
Missing the +1 per upgrade vs. Light is going to make practically no difference at all for Hellions either.
Tanks now do 10 less damage in siege mode. That's going to make practically no difference. The only even remotely visible difference it could make is having splash not be quite so powerful. Now you can lose 80% of your army in 2 seconds instead of 90%.
Trust me, no Zergs are gonna man up and a-move into your mech army now. It's still pretty much the same game as before. To all the Terran players out there: do your mech builds exactly as before and see if you notice any difference at all. My guess is you won't or you'll only notice a difference with 1 or 2 tanks. After you get more tanks, your army is still going to be unapproachable by any sane Zerg player.
Reaper upgrade changes nothing.
agree, no difference with this patch. Nerf tank is not needed, what is needed is a way for zerg to deal against that.
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biggest nerf in weeks compared to all the small research and buildtime changes. seems like blizz is feeling quite the pressure that they suddenly throw out huge ass nerfs after no testing.
someone should explain to blizz what metagame means.
whatever maybe i can roach/hydra 1a again :D
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I honestly dont believe these nerfs will make a shred of difference... seeing as how it still requires the same number of shots to kill all the units. Pointless nerf to keep the zerg masses happy, but in reality most good players will have probably seen this as pointless
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On June 04 2010 12:46 Darpa wrote:
I honestly dont believe these nerfs will make a shred of difference... seeing as how it still requires the same number of shots to kill all the units. Pointless nerf to keep the zerg masses happy, but in reality most good players will have probably seen this as pointless
I bet it will be the complete opposite.
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This patch didn't really do much, lol.
The only thing that I felt really did anything was the nitro pack upgrade buff. Reapers, especially early reaper harass/cheese just got more gay. Other than that, nothing too exciting out of this one. The tank damage nerf isn't really that big, because it doesn't reduce or increase the number of hits required by a seige tank to kill most units. The biggest implication of this damage nerf was the reduction of the splash damage, which I personally feel is a very warranted nerf.
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The nitro pack buff I guess I can understand where it comes from. It was pretty much worthless to get because of the fact that the reaper is such a one trick pony and now the upgrade is cheap enough that if you are going for three early reapers it might potentially be worth getting in some situations. But they really need to look at reaper survivability if the unit is ever going to do have a larger role in this game beyond killing four workers, cap a xel'naga watchtower and die.
What about adding an hp upgrade like the combat shields for reapers but put it in a higher tech structure to not make it available very early in the game. Or a "weapons refit" that changes the damage type or armor type. Or even something crazy like a stationary cloak upgrade in the ghost academy that cloaks the reaper but only while it is standing still or while not shooting. Then at least their scouting qualities could be utilized later on in the game.
As it stands now, the reaper is so weak that I am confident that it dies from EMP, being scanned and standing next to an Archon when it dies.
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But there's no sense crying
over every mistake.
You just keep on trying
till you run out of cake.
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On June 04 2010 09:03 hordeau wrote:
They gave up on protoss nerfing
About damned time.
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On June 04 2010 12:33 InfiniteIce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:30 0neder wrote:
How is the SC2 seige tank exciting
The dichotomy of siege vs unsieged in SC1, and siege range vs non was what made it so exciting. Blizzard is foolish to do this. They should have fixed the AI so tanks wouldn't smart acquire targets anymore. ^ fix't? And to actually add something to this discussion...I think tanks need not to fire so RIDICULOUSLY fast when in unsieged mode...they are just way too fast. Slowing the RoF down when unsieged would probably lead to a more varietal dichotomy, no?
I heartily agree with your proposal. Make it weak unseiged, and imba while seiged.
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my sc2 launcher has a twitch! incoming patch?
*edit: nvm I think its just wigging out on me
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nerfing the staple unit of the terrans? bs, they were fine
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On June 04 2010 12:50 Ryuu314 wrote:
This patch didn't really do much, lol.
The only thing that I felt really did anything was the nitro pack upgrade buff. Reapers, especially early reaper harass/cheese just got more gay. Other than that, nothing too exciting out of this one. The tank damage nerf isn't really that big, because it doesn't reduce or increase the number of hits required by a seige tank to kill most units. The biggest implication of this damage nerf was the reduction of the splash damage, which I personally feel is a very warranted nerf.
The reaper upgrade takes forever to research. You're not going to see effects early game.
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This patch changes nothing. This isn't a nerf at all to Terran mech, 50dmg per shot will still obliterate everything that moves on the ground due to improved AI targeting (its much better then sc1's tanks ai)
The no upgrades to light dmg, big freaking whoop... most players don't go past 1 upgrade anyways because the average game only last about 10-15 min if that. So you lose +1 dmg, woweee big nerf to mech (lawl)
This is really a pointless patch. They just should've just bundled this changes with the beta reopen, would atleast save us the down time and continue playing.
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On June 04 2010 13:09 Denarius Jay wrote:
The no upgrades to light dmg, big freaking whoop... most players don't go past 1 upgrade anyways because the average game only last about 10-15 min if that. So you lose +1 dmg, woweee big nerf to mech (lawl)
Thor's AA has multiple attacks, does it not? It would lose about 5 damage a volley, which sucks considering Thor is Terran's best AA vs Zerg (mutas beat vikings, marines get owned by infestors).
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On June 04 2010 13:09 Denarius Jay wrote:
The no upgrades to light dmg, big freaking whoop... most players don't go past 1 upgrade anyways because the average game only last about 10-15 min if that. So you lose +1 dmg, woweee big nerf to mech (lawl)
its actually a huge deal for thor vs muta when upgrades begin to come into play and you're just wrong about most people stopping at +1
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I am not crying, just pointing out blizzard could have waited longer and Zergs could have tried many, many more things before this type of change.
though...say hello to more marauder usage again lol. It really does not change much tvp or tvz, seems like it helps out TvT the most due to tanks taking 4 shots and marauder taking 3 to die (is that right?)
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i question why TLO got BCs instead of ravens against idra. he was certainly contained but was turtling effectively. PDD* works against corruptors and/or seeker missile is at least a guaranteed hit against one brolord.
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maybe the situation report when released will give better insight to these changes... I also can't help but think that the siege tank change is more for TvT and not TvZ.... Any terran players really think that TvT will no longer be primarily Tank and Viking wars?
Maybe they were trying to "kill to birds with one stone" though and help two MU....
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Tanks in sc1 did so much damage and they were fine, I mean common they are siege tanks! from 75 to 50,, it's a joke
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On June 04 2010 13:15 taintmachine wrote:
i question why TLO got BCs instead of ravens against idra. he was certainly contained but was turtling effectively. PTD works against corruptors and/or seeker missile is at least a guaranteed hit against one brolord.
Wrong thread..?
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On June 04 2010 12:46 Darpa wrote:
I honestly dont believe these nerfs will make a shred of difference... seeing as how it still requires the same number of shots to kill all the units. Pointless nerf to keep the zerg masses happy, but in reality most good players will have probably seen this as pointless
direct hits from a tank require the same amount of shots against most zerg ground units. except the ultra.
but splash hits require more. the 50% zone could kill 1 hydra with three shots before. now it requires 4 shots. roach needed 5 shots and now 6 or maybe 7 (not sure if armor reduces splash damage). and lings arent one shoted by splash after the +2 mech upgrade.
at least on paper it looks like a huge nerf.
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I think Blizzard should have given a little more time. I mean, in the end, what does a week of extra testing really do to damage us?
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On June 04 2010 13:17 NeoScout wrote:
Tanks in sc1 did so much damage and they were fine, I mean common they are siege tanks! from 75 to 50,, it's a joke
Yes, but they could be countered by small fast units. Now they rape fast small units, along with the heavy ones, too. They do need to be nerfed, because Terran should not be able to just lock off any possible ground army in the game from attacking. Add in the fact that vikings and thors both have insane range and damage, and you're beginning to see why terran mech is so scary. You have to basically out produce him two to one, and then you still might not break it.
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Im terran but I like this patch. Now no more whiners who QQ after the game "u've only got ur win cause ur race is OP."
As this still happen at very high rating.
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Yeah I'm hoping to see less "LOL so retarded" "Terran...." etc when I still roll these kids.
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Am i the only zerg that consistantly beat mech pre patchh 15? GD get off your high horse and laughing at units and try them out in their element and actually use them with backup in similiar food armies. i use ultralisks, i beat mech, coincidence? maybe. but i ultras are that bad then throwing 48-60 food into them means i should easily lose eh?
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this zerg told me i would have never won if it were in patch 15.....
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On June 04 2010 12:40 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
So much crying and counter-crying in this thread.
Disclaimer: I'm a Zerg player.
From my perspective, this does not change TvZ mech at all. The upgrades make practically no difference in either the case of Thors or Hellions. What really kills mutalisks is a certain critical number of Thors and smart defense, not an upgrade. There was a mathematical sweet spot with the upgrades before, but it came out so late that it didn't really even matter.
Missing the +1 per upgrade vs. Light is going to make practically no difference at all for Hellions either.
Tanks now do 10 less damage in siege mode. That's going to make practically no difference. The only even remotely visible difference it could make is having splash not be quite so powerful. Now you can lose 80% of your army in 2 seconds instead of 90%.
Trust me, no Zergs are gonna man up and a-move into your mech army now. It's still pretty much the same game as before. To all the Terran players out there: do your mech builds exactly as before and see if you notice any difference at all. My guess is you won't or you'll only notice a difference with 1 or 2 tanks. After you get more tanks, your army is still going to be unapproachable by any sane Zerg player.
Reaper upgrade changes nothing.
No, it does not change TvZ mech at all, but it affects TvP mech quite a bit with tanks taking 1 extra shot to kill a zealot/stalker.
Nice job blizzard, by trying to fix TvZ, you mess up TvP.
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On June 04 2010 12:34 standingcow wrote:
The margin by which the best (read: asian) zerg players are stomping any and all terrans, which was already significant, just got larger
Not necessarily. During patch 13 (and 14 i think) there was GomTV invitational and final ended up as TvsT mirror matchup. It is the most recent invitational in Korea, and the finalists are former SC1 progamer KSJ and makaprime whose atm considered as one of the best terran in Korea.
Btw many Top Korean SC2 gamers participated.
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They should give Force fields HP instead of BIG units walking through them. I mean seriously all they could come up with is "BIG SHIT CAN WALK THRU THE FIELDS CUZ THEIR FREAKING BIG.." really? -tebin
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I don't understand the Nitro Packs change. It does nothing except make it so you might think about getting it, and then decide not to because that gas could be; another reaper, conk shells, half of stim or shields, half of your fac, all of which are useful outside the 4 minute mark. People tearing about this change need to step back and see the if a T foolishly invests in this early game he has cost himself one of these things.
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IMO they should have reduced the Firing Rate of Siege to pull back damage, and take away that +10 hitpoints they got a while ago.
The Siege rate seems to be way way too high.
Yes, I'm a Terran player... I feel that the rate was more of a problem than the Power. I just really wanted to put that out there. I think Time for fast units to move in (Lings/Zealots/Blink/Roaches) would be more beneficial on the ground VS tanks. Please discuss if you like.
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On June 04 2010 13:34 KMK wrote:
They should give Force fields HP instead of BIG units walking through them. I mean seriously all they could come up with is "BIG SHIT CAN WALK THRU THE FIELDS CUZ THEIR FREAKING BIG.." really? -tebin
maybe they know something we dont know?
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On June 04 2010 12:11 De4ngus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:09 Ideas wrote:On June 04 2010 11:58 Energizer wrote:On June 04 2010 11:56 Ideas wrote:
ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol They give a useless unit some stock, and you call them "dumb" Have you ever seen reapers even used successfully past the 5 minute mark? This doesnt change anything. the reaper is a horribly designed unit that is probably the most shallow in the game. amazing in the 1st 4 minutes, completely useless afterward except as a super expensive scout. This buff just makes them a bigger pain in the ass for the 1st 4 minutes. they should of addressed the reaper a long time ago with an effort to make them good in the later stages of the game instead of this. This is a good point but I don't know what could possibly be done to make the unit less "shallow."
remove/nerf the building damage it does and give it stim packs? stim comes late enough so that other races have defense already, so it doesnt compound its strength in early cheeses, and might make them useful in battle for shredding light units like zlots. reapers have similar HP to marines and higher dmg output, much more so if they had stim. marauder-reaper ball could theoretically be effective, with marauders tanking and killing the stalker/roach while reapers in the back melt the zlots and lings.
all theorycrafting ofc
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On June 04 2010 13:34 KMK wrote:
They should give Force fields HP instead of BIG units walking through them. I mean seriously all they could come up with is "BIG SHIT CAN WALK THRU THE FIELDS CUZ THEIR FREAKING BIG.." really? -tebin
hmmm, ok that was off topic or out of the blue. either way wrong thread =D
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reapers with nitro are good mid to late game against zerg and terran btw. they rape hydralisks and just dodging the tank positions and attacking your production and resources is so strong.
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Tank damage change does matter against hydras btw. Tanks have a 0.5 damage radius to their splash IIRC, so now it takes 2 0.5 damage hits plus 1 full damage hit to kill a hydra. With 60 damage shots it takes only 1 0.5 damage hit plus 1 full damage hit.
I have absolutely no idea if this will mean anything in practice.
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ARGHHHHHHH but oh well, mech was really strong anyways.
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General
Improved the system that handles initial placement and promotion/relegation between Leagues & Ladders.
Interesting...I wonder what changes were made and if we'll actually notice them.
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patch started downloading for me just now....
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Patch downloaded. But Bnet still down.
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I just hate that siege tanks are worse vs toss now.
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On June 04 2010 09:10 Hider wrote:
Hmm the siege tank was definately too strong. Imba in tvz and tvt and really strong vs protoss. However maybe 60--> 50 was a too big nerf. Why not try 55 first? Or if made 50 the siege upgrade should be cheaper or perhaps make the siege-time/unsige time a little quicker.
However the reaper thing is just plain stupid by blizzard. Remove the speed upgrade, because the reaper is just useless as it is now. It definately need some kind of other upgrade. Perhaps a range upgrade or some other cool stuff.
I would be for making their default speed somewhere between their normal movement speed now and the speed they get after the upgrade, then removing the speed upgrade altogether. In place of the speed upgrade possibly a health upgrade to make them somewhat more useful for harass later as well as somewhat useful to attack with.
Not saying they are useless in midgame, I had a build vs zerg (which doesnt work if I see them go roach or muta) that involves a drop of 3-4 hellions plus 4 reapers which seems to be rather effective. The hellions with fire support from reapers toast lings and hellions meatshield so the reapers can take out spinecrawlers.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the original reason the medic was removed and the heal bio role was moved to the dropship was so when the reapers were hopping up and down cliffs ect. there would be a unit capable of healing them as the medic would only be able to stay on one part of the battlefield in order to heal them. But what we are seeing is currently there is a stage of the game where reapers become unused because so many things can kill them fast whether they are being healed or not. And before most of these units come into play you dont have dropship tech yet.
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Bnet is up! :D New patch play time!
Edit: Well, it was for a second lol.
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On June 04 2010 09:02 SirNeb wrote:
not sure about the siege tanks nerf, was it really a problem?
yep
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They have killed the T mech.
Now we will return to three rax marauder gogogogo
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maybe this tank nerf will mean we can see something other than tank/viking in tvt
probably not...
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On June 04 2010 13:46 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
Bnet is up! :D New patch play time!
Edit: Well, it was for a second lol.
lol someone got rick rolled :d
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Haha, they let you input your new ID then kick you off. Blizz....damn them. :p
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If ppl continue to whine, next they will cut tank damage to 20)) I agree tha terran mech were a little bit strong but that is becouse ppl dont anderstand yet how to counter it. Why dont they made tank damage 70 at the begining of the beta) when nobody used them? And now they cut the choise if you go reapers you make the upgrade bottom line. Kind of stupid
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Tanks in siege mode = immortal dmg, anyone else thing thats f'ing retarded? Yea, Zerg needed some help vs. Mech, but now tanks are even more worthless vs toss.
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I can't even put in my ID. You guys deserve to get pitchforked in the face.
I was so excited for nothing.
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On June 04 2010 09:02 SirNeb wrote:
not sure about the siege tanks nerf, was it really a problem?
Due to the improved firing rate of tanks in siege mode, critical mass for annihilating enemy units was made at about 6 tanks. Coupled with maurauders and marines WITH medivacs tanking dmg at the front, it made for a ridiculously powerful ball to break when you cannot flank. Only success I had against this was with burrowed roaches sniping the tanks OR Broodlords which was a ridiculously expensive tech switch.
Edi: mild success with zerglings WHEN i can flank, otherwise the marauders/marines and tanks eat them up
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A 10 dmg nerf isn't significant? Jesus Zerg players in SC2 are a bunch of whiners...won't be happy until zerglings do 999 dmg to all
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On June 04 2010 13:55 Bosko wrote:
Tanks in siege mode = immortal dmg, anyone else thing thats f'ing retarded? Yea, Zerg needed some help vs. Mech, but now tanks are even more worthless vs toss.
Yep.
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It appears that all the whining about Mech has led Blizzard to nerf it.... Pity, I don't like this.
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On June 04 2010 13:17 NeoScout wrote:
Tanks in sc1 did so much damage and they were fine, I mean common they are siege tanks! from 75 to 50,, it's a joke
This game is Starcraft II. Terran didn't have the Thor back then to annihilate Mutalisks. Thor+Tanks were too powerfull and required no-skill from the Terran, let's hope this little nerf helps. (tanks still 1 shot or 2-shot Zerg units you know ?)
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I don't like any of these nerfs, at all.
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What I think would be good is some sort of either like anti armor gun or machine gun that they could set up. Be an upgrade, and slow them down tremendously, but maybe fgive armor/health/dps? I'm not sure. Or let them 'morph' into a unit.
um... there are the marauders as a Anti Armor unit and the Marine as a machine gun unit.
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I am so disgusted in the tank nerf, because now tanks will just suck vs protoss now. Also the damage is not the issue its the rate of fire of the tanks god!!!!!!!!!
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i cant a-move into a ball of siege tanks.. they must be overpowered
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I would have preferred to have the rate of fire down rather then damage, which would make them more like BW tanks.
And btw, there IS one Zerg unit that needs 1 extra shot from a tank to die ... yes that's right, Ultras got a ninja-buff woo hoo.
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like seigetanks were barely buffed in the beta, and in the start everyone was like OMG never make them...now everyone makes them and suddenly they are overpowred.. just goes to show that this game is a work in progress and a lot of stuff isnt thought of already..
ppl should play more instead of just watching streams and complaining about imba :>
that being said, I dont realy know how to feel about the hellionnerf.. I sure didnt think they r overpowred
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No one did lol. Hellions never hurt nobody no how. D:
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People bringing up that tanks in SC1 didn't smart fire ect, forget that tanks are 1 extra supply, and 25 extra gas in SC2. Do you guys who don't play Terran realize how much of an impact that is? 50 damage would be fine if you take 1 supply away, or maybe 25 gas. I don't understand Blizzards nerf everything attitude, why not make an actual useful addition to Zergs abilities rather than nerf Terran to be worse against Protoss in the process.
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overall I see this as a good patch, i am currently a diamond zerg player rank 3 and 90% of my loses were due to terran mech build going into mid-late game. Multiple times when i figured that i had a excellent flank with burrowed/OL drop roaches and ling/hydra/infestor for support nearby i would still lose cause tanks were so beastly with the splash.
Cant wait to see how it will change the game!
not sure if i agree or not with the broodlord nerf but i still think they should give a lil more help to the ultra. Its still not practical to get at any point of the game
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On June 04 2010 14:08 arnold(soTa) wrote:like seigetanks were barely buffed in the beta, and in the start everyone was like OMG never make them...now everyone makes them and suddenly they are overpowred.. just goes to show that this game is a work in progress and a lot of stuff isnt thought of already.. ppl should play more instead of just watching streams and complaining about imba :> that being said, I dont realy know how to feel about the hellionnerf.. I sure didnt think they r overpowred
Well that was primarily because Siege Tanks did suck when the beta first began. The unit itself was mostly the same, but its counters were several times stronger than they are now. Roaches and Immortals always ate tanks for breakfast, and it wasn't until all the Thor buffs and P/Z changes that tanks started seeing more use.
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tanks still 3 shot roaches and 2 shot hydras unupgraded so I don't think this adresses the issue. What they are doing is nerfing tanks vs Protoss because it now takes an aditional shot to kill zealots/stalkers.
This is not the right nerf Blizzard!
edit: 2 shot hydras not 3 shot
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On June 04 2010 12:19 InfiniteIce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:11 kNyTTyM wrote:On June 04 2010 12:09 tfmdjeff wrote:
Siege tank damage is nerfed, but is 10 damage going to matter that much when there are 15 of them firing on your units?
And the things that really upset me are the constant zerg tier3 nerfs. Brood lords are basically the only unit that can break terran mech, and now they're being nerfed. they were already fragile and situational enough. Blizzard is really pressing ultralisks as much as possible. Now it takes 11 shots from a tank to kill ultra instead of 9. Is that with 0 armor or the +4 tier armor upgrades? I'd like to see those numbers; I would of course simply test it myself, but...yea, bnet is down. So, what numbers did you use?
500 health +1 base armor
500/(50-1) = 10.2 which is 11 shots
49 x 11 = 539 so no way ultralisk regenerates 39 that fast so 11 shots kills
500/60 = 8.33 = 9shots
9x 60= 540 also no way ultralisk regens that fast.
This is obviously assuming no splash
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On June 04 2010 13:33 Nemesis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:40 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
So much crying and counter-crying in this thread.
Disclaimer: I'm a Zerg player.
From my perspective, this does not change TvZ mech at all. The upgrades make practically no difference in either the case of Thors or Hellions. What really kills mutalisks is a certain critical number of Thors and smart defense, not an upgrade. There was a mathematical sweet spot with the upgrades before, but it came out so late that it didn't really even matter.
Missing the +1 per upgrade vs. Light is going to make practically no difference at all for Hellions either.
Tanks now do 10 less damage in siege mode. That's going to make practically no difference. The only even remotely visible difference it could make is having splash not be quite so powerful. Now you can lose 80% of your army in 2 seconds instead of 90%.
Trust me, no Zergs are gonna man up and a-move into your mech army now. It's still pretty much the same game as before. To all the Terran players out there: do your mech builds exactly as before and see if you notice any difference at all. My guess is you won't or you'll only notice a difference with 1 or 2 tanks. After you get more tanks, your army is still going to be unapproachable by any sane Zerg player.
Reaper upgrade changes nothing. No, it does not change TvZ mech at all, but it affects TvP mech quite a bit with tanks taking 1 extra shot to kill a zealot/stalker. Nice job blizzard, by trying to fix TvZ, you mess up TvP.
Why would any Protoss use Zealots against mech? If the tanks dont melt them, the Helions will once they get in range. Just throwing away minerals with Zealots.
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On June 04 2010 13:36 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:11 De4ngus wrote:On June 04 2010 12:09 Ideas wrote:On June 04 2010 11:58 Energizer wrote:On June 04 2010 11:56 Ideas wrote:
ok if theyre going to give reapers a 50/50 upgrade then they need to make concussion shells 100/100. 50/50 upgrades in any case are so dumb (previously overlord speed, warpgates, shells, and now this shit).
man i hate reaper rushes lol They give a useless unit some stock, and you call them "dumb" Have you ever seen reapers even used successfully past the 5 minute mark? This doesnt change anything. the reaper is a horribly designed unit that is probably the most shallow in the game. amazing in the 1st 4 minutes, completely useless afterward except as a super expensive scout. This buff just makes them a bigger pain in the ass for the 1st 4 minutes. they should of addressed the reaper a long time ago with an effort to make them good in the later stages of the game instead of this. This is a good point but I don't know what could possibly be done to make the unit less "shallow." remove/nerf the building damage it does and give it stim packs? stim comes late enough so that other races have defense already, so it doesnt compound its strength in early cheeses, and might make them useful in battle for shredding light units like zlots. reapers have similar HP to marines and higher dmg output, much more so if they had stim. marauder-reaper ball could theoretically be effective, with marauders tanking and killing the stalker/roach while reapers in the back melt the zlots and lings. all theorycrafting ofc
Yeah, the building damage isn't really useful considering Marauders are almost as good and much better survivability. Main problem later in the game is that they just take so long to build vs compared to how short they tend to survive in firefights. Something like Stim might not help that too much, since they'll still probably die off relatively quick, and in close fights you would be pressed to reinforce marine as they build faster, or marauder for longer survivability.
I thought about maybe adding an armory/fusion-core level upgrade so they can be reactored, but then that might make them too strong against certain combinations. Using the unit tester, massed reapers rape pretty much any other mass light combination (other than ghosts, though ofc they take even longer to build).
Maybe they should just bring back the old D8 ability back, nerfed a little. From the battle report they were featured in, it seemed really viable for turning the tide of battle if skillfully used.
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Yay! Finally PvT lategame is little bit more playable...
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Ultralisks are effectively immune to splash as they are the same size as the splash radius. and in case you are wondering it takes 9 hits for fully upgraded tanks to kill fully upgraded ultralisks.
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another clueless patch... buff, nerf cycle... this is not balancing.
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On June 04 2010 14:15 Afterhours wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 13:33 Nemesis wrote:On June 04 2010 12:40 DefMatrixUltra wrote:
So much crying and counter-crying in this thread.
Disclaimer: I'm a Zerg player.
From my perspective, this does not change TvZ mech at all. The upgrades make practically no difference in either the case of Thors or Hellions. What really kills mutalisks is a certain critical number of Thors and smart defense, not an upgrade. There was a mathematical sweet spot with the upgrades before, but it came out so late that it didn't really even matter.
Missing the +1 per upgrade vs. Light is going to make practically no difference at all for Hellions either.
Tanks now do 10 less damage in siege mode. That's going to make practically no difference. The only even remotely visible difference it could make is having splash not be quite so powerful. Now you can lose 80% of your army in 2 seconds instead of 90%.
Trust me, no Zergs are gonna man up and a-move into your mech army now. It's still pretty much the same game as before. To all the Terran players out there: do your mech builds exactly as before and see if you notice any difference at all. My guess is you won't or you'll only notice a difference with 1 or 2 tanks. After you get more tanks, your army is still going to be unapproachable by any sane Zerg player.
Reaper upgrade changes nothing. No, it does not change TvZ mech at all, but it affects TvP mech quite a bit with tanks taking 1 extra shot to kill a zealot/stalker. Nice job blizzard, by trying to fix TvZ, you mess up TvP. Why would any Protoss use Zealots against mech? If the tanks dont melt them, the Helions will once they get in range. Just throwing away minerals with Zealots.
Throwing minerals away on Zealots as opposed to...on Pylons? >.>
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i like all the changes but the hellion debuff....did anyone use hellion currently? i play protoss so they never use it on me (even when i mass zealot)....but maybe its overused when facing a zerg?
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I use hellions vs Zerg all the time. The hellion change doesn't bother me, and neither does the Thor's to be honest. It's that siege damage...
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Throwing minerals away on Zealots as opposed to...on Pylons? >.>
Try those 250 mineral expensive Immortals.
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yea but every high level diamond terran i play uses the mech build...its as overused as marauders was. I still think the mech build is going to be really strong, but hopefully this will add variety to their builds.
maybe they can back those tanks up with reapers now
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as a Terran player I feel like this is also directed at TvT in that unupgraded tanks no longer 1-shot riot shield marines, and +1/+0 tanks no longer 2-shot marauders.
I think this should definitely make Terran infantry way more viable in TvT
I'm sure Mech will still be by far the more predominant build, but infantry will still be more useful
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God, lately all of Blizzard's patches have hit the correct units, but in the complete wrong way...
Evidence:
Battlecruiser: Get's kited and doesn't do its full DPS because it can't get enough shots off, so Blizzard makes them build faster.
Ultralisk: People were complaining that it couldn't get in range because it's too big, so it's damage was increased.
Reapers: Had little viability past the early game, so Blizzard made it's speed upgrade faster.
Terran Mech: Zerg didn't have a good counter to it, so Blizzard nerfed tanks.
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On June 04 2010 14:27 backwardsname wrote:
as a Terran player I feel like this is also directed at TvT in that unupgraded tanks no longer 1-shot riot shield marines, and +1/+0 tanks no longer 2-shot marauders.
I think this should definitely make Terran infantry way more viable in TvT
I'm sure Mech will still be by far the more predominant build, but infantry will still be more useful
Just what I want to do, more MMM. Thanks Blizzard, the only way to make TvT more boring is making MMM more viable in TvT.
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On June 04 2010 14:28 ghettohobbit2 wrote:
God, lately all of Blizzard's patches have hit the correct units, but in the complete wrong way...
Evidence:
Battlecruiser: Get's kited and doesn't do its full DPS because it can't get enough shots off, so Blizzard makes them build faster.
Ultralisk: People were complaining that it couldn't get in range because it's too big, so it's damage was increased.
Reapers: Had little viability past the early game, so Blizzard made it's speed upgrade faster.
Terran Mech: Zerg didn't have a good counter to it, so Blizzard nerfed tanks.
Agreed 10000%.
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Hey, I don't think the weakend Siege damage is gonna be such big of a deal, roaches are still 3 hitted by tanks, but upgrades might become a little more important, and of course the rest of your army will have a harder time to kill the roaches.
Why they nerved the thor I don't rly get, I rly don't think it was too strong against mutas, nor do I think that this nerv is gonna be pretty huge.
Don't see why the hellion nerv was necessary either, but think it is pretty fair, as hellions are still insanely good.
the broodlord nerv isn't going to have any effect imo either, since they are ridiculously strong already, without any upgrades at all.
Overall an OK patch.
Ultras are rly rly good now btw., I think the changes they have done to them were pretty nice.
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On June 04 2010 14:31 Cola.bier wrote:
Hey, I don't think the weakend Siege damage is gonna be such big of a deal, roaches are still 3 hitted by tanks, but upgrades might become a little more important, and of course the rest of your army will have a harder time to kill the roaches.
Why they nerved the thor I don't rly get, I rly don't think it was too strong against mutas, nor do I think that this nerv is gonna be pretty huge.
Don't see why the hellion nerv was necessary either, but think it is pretty fair, as hellions are still insanely good.
the broodlord nerv isn't going to have any effect imo either, since they are ridiculously strong already, without any upgrades at all.
Overall an OK patch.
You don't see much changes because you are looking at the entirely wrong match up. Zealots take 1 extra shot, Stalkers take 1 extra shot.
I'll say it 100x, the solution should have been a Zerg specific ability to help counter Terran, not a Terran nerf.
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Yay ... all the Zerg whining worked. Siege tanks only doing 50 damage for a 3 food immobile unit? And of course Thors can do even less against Mutalisks now with reduced damage upgrade.
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Can't wait for Idra or Artosis to post so we can get an actually knowledgeable post in here.
Imho. you people are jumping the gun far too early, we can't be sure how the match up is changed by the changes to mech before testing it (how does it affect splash etc.) but at least we do know that Blizzard is aware of the fact that mech is a bit too powerful against zerg and is going to be dealing with it. That's good.
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On June 04 2010 14:38 Puosu wrote:
Can't wait for Idra or Artosis to post so we can get an actually knowledgeable post in here.
Imho. you people are jumping the gun far too early, we can't be sure how the match up is changed by the changes to mech before testing it (how does it affect splash etc.) but at least we do know that Blizzard is aware of the fact that mech is a bit too powerful against zerg and is going to be dealing with it. That's good.
i love how idra and artosis are experts but tlo isn't cause he disagrees with you.
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On June 04 2010 14:38 Puosu wrote:
but at least we do know that Blizzard is aware of the fact that mech is a bit too powerful against zerg and is going to be dealing with it. That's good.
If you give a sick patient the wrong medicine nothing will get better. You may have attempted to fix the problem but that really means nothing.
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Terrible patch.. Now i ll play marauder only..((
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It's weird because now vs single targets sieged tanks do ALOT more dps unsieged instead of just some more DPS.
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On June 04 2010 14:45 PrinceXizor wrote:
It's weird because now vs single targets sieged tanks do ALOT more dps unsieged instead of just some more DPS.
If they're armored... And splash > single target.
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Psst see where i say against single targets?
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Would 40 damage + 20 vs armored in siege have worked better? It wouldn't have helped against roaches but lots of shit wouldn't die nearly as fast against tanks in all matchups that right now instadies to tanks
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For reference
DPS of an unsieged tank: 14.42 to light units and 24.03 to armored
DPS of a sieged tank: 16.66 + 8.33*(number of units in splash radius).
OLD DPS of a sieged tank: 20+ 10*(number of units in splash radius)
Each upgrade provides:
unsieged: 1.92 DPS to light units and 2.88 DPS to armored units
sieged: 1.66+.833*(number of units in splash radius) DPS
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I think 50 damage + 10 to armored would be nice.
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On June 04 2010 15:01 DooMDash wrote:
I think 50 damage + 10 to armored would be nice.
except i think part of the main point was to help ultralisks vs tanks. since adding 2 shots unupgraded and 1 shot upgraded definitely helps ultralisks alot.
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I'm I the only one who cares about Ultralisks the same amount I care about Battle Cruisers? I would never build a battle cruiser in SC2 pretty much... I would think most Z's would feel the same way about Ultras. I guess thats not a good attitude, but it seems like a nerf to help a unit that people rarely get anyway is stupid, while still affecting every other thing in the game.
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can someone maybe upload the patch files? i cannot use the blizzard downloader due to campus router connection.
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On June 04 2010 15:12 DooMDash wrote:
I'm I the only one who cares about Ultralisks the same amount I care about Battle Cruisers? I would never build a battle cruiser in SC2 pretty much... I would think most Z's would feel the same way about Ultras. I guess thats not a good attitude, but it seems like a nerf to help a unit that people rarely get anyway is stupid, while still affecting every other thing in the game.
most zerg do feel that ultralisk is useless, without even making one in sooo many patches. blizzard, TLO, myself and others are trying to fix that. BCs are just too unimportant to terran atm because every other unit fills it's role better. only thing they are uniquely good for is yamato, and they aren't worth the time and cost for that.
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Nitro Packs should allow Reapers to move on the bounce, jumping from point to point instead of scooting along the ground. This would greatly enhance their maneuverability in army battles.
If they're still too vulnerable, give them an alternate form of Stim (pain suppressors) that when activated reduces the damage the take to 1/2 or 1/3... or perhaps a passive ability such that 1/2 or 2/3 of the damage they take is dealt over time instead of immediately.
Bottom line, though, Reapers take a stupidly long amount of time to build, because they're crazy-good at the very start of the game. Tech lab build time should be increased so that Reaper build time can be reduced. (Which would be conducive to add-on swapping, of which I strongly approve, and would make Marauder rushes less annoying.)
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Really hate the tank change against toss. One extra hit against zealots and stalkers was completely unecessary.
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On June 04 2010 14:28 ghettohobbit2 wrote:
God, lately all of Blizzard's patches have hit the correct units, but in the complete wrong way...
Evidence:
Battlecruiser: Get's kited and doesn't do its full DPS because it can't get enough shots off, so Blizzard makes them build faster.
Ultralisk: People were complaining that it couldn't get in range because it's too big, so it's damage was increased.
Reapers: Had little viability past the early game, so Blizzard made it's speed upgrade faster.
Terran Mech: Zerg didn't have a good counter to it, so Blizzard nerfed tanks.
Oh my god, this is so much truth.
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On June 04 2010 13:55 Bosko wrote:
Tanks in siege mode = immortal dmg, anyone else thing thats f'ing retarded? Yea, Zerg needed some help vs. Mech, but now tanks are even more worthless vs toss.
Good one.
range 13, 50 damage to everything + splash
vs
range 5, 20 damage to everything but armored - splash
Yeah... That's the same thing. You're right.
Tanks have never been worthless vs toss. Watch some Strelok games or something honestly...
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yeah an upgrade that makes them produce from reactors would allow them lategame use i think. the upgrade would have be from something like a planetary fortress or something so that it's more late game or just sacrificing economy for it.
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I don't think reapers are crazy good at the start of the game. It's so easy to stop and you need to kill several workers to be put at an equilibrium. Also reapers have NO function aside from cheesing. Clearly weak design and so are the 50/50 upgrades (in other words also the concussive shells).
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Helping zerg is a good thing. But i'm not sure that the problem was in the tank, maybe it was that no zerg unit was an answer to tanks.
For people saying the +1 -> 0 uppgrade damage won't change anything, every terran was rush +3 mech dmg so it is a big change..
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reapers do pretty well mid-late vs terran and zerg. but vs toss they are practically useless past harrass.
VS terran you can use them to quickly bypass any tank group and attack the bases.
Vs zerg flanking with reapers is an extremely fast way of taking out hydralisks. not to mention that reapers in bunkers are able to eliminate 4x their food cost in light units.
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On June 04 2010 15:21 used man wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:28 ghettohobbit2 wrote:
God, lately all of Blizzard's patches have hit the correct units, but in the complete wrong way...
Evidence:
Battlecruiser: Get's kited and doesn't do its full DPS because it can't get enough shots off, so Blizzard makes them build faster.
Ultralisk: People were complaining that it couldn't get in range because it's too big, so it's damage was increased.
Reapers: Had little viability past the early game, so Blizzard made it's speed upgrade faster.
Terran Mech: Zerg didn't have a good counter to it, so Blizzard nerfed tanks. Oh my god, this is so much truth. 100% fact. Fact is, the solutions aren't as simple as they seem and in some cases require new units or unit overhauls to fix.
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I don't think that reapers need a buff at this time though as players haven't explored reapers beyond early game harrassment. and even the ultralisk buffs have been more to get players to try them out than anything. i think nerfing tanks was premature, and that if anything at all needed to be done, it's returning ultralisks to 600 hp.
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On June 04 2010 14:34 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:31 Cola.bier wrote:
Hey, I don't think the weakend Siege damage is gonna be such big of a deal, roaches are still 3 hitted by tanks, but upgrades might become a little more important, and of course the rest of your army will have a harder time to kill the roaches.
Why they nerved the thor I don't rly get, I rly don't think it was too strong against mutas, nor do I think that this nerv is gonna be pretty huge.
Don't see why the hellion nerv was necessary either, but think it is pretty fair, as hellions are still insanely good.
the broodlord nerv isn't going to have any effect imo either, since they are ridiculously strong already, without any upgrades at all.
Overall an OK patch. You don't see much changes because you are looking at the entirely wrong match up. Zealots take 1 extra shot, Stalkers take 1 extra shot. I'll say it 100x, the solution should have been a Zerg specific ability to help counter Terran, not a Terran nerf.
Well I don't know about you, but I hardly use siege tanks against protoss.
If I see it done, unless its not some weird mech style from painuser, it is usually a timing tank push, often not even using siege mode.
once you are in front of the enemys base you start to contain him with buildings to block the way.
If you blocked nicely he couln't bust it with ground units.
if you screwed up you got demolished and your tanks killed all your own units.
I think this will still remain the same.
If he is trying to bast a wall by the terran he takes insane amounts of damage until he can pierce through.
the key was, just like in broodwar, to prevent the terran from getting a decent position.
Don't feel like I'm weeker against protoss now.
The main influence will happen in TvT.
€: cruisers to me seem more like a finisher units, just like carriers.
cruisers I have used the most against protoss so far, but they actually are insanely good against zerg.
hydras are ridiculously owned by cruisers, the corrupter though, are a good counter.
but if you, for example, built some turrets aswell and some vikings cruisers im sure can be rly good against zerg.
they also should destroy broodlords easily.
The Ultralisk I have seen in use quite a bit since the last patch.
Played some games with darkforce yesterday and he used them a lot (TvZ)
they seem to do quite well now.
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What? No changes to Protoss?
After 13 + 1 iterations, did they finally run out of things to nerf?
Random thought, just like zerg units moving faster on creep, toss units (except probes) should move faster within pylon power. This might help those poor zealots defend against reapers comin' in with them new nitro packs.
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i can tell that what every whiners want are something to QQ over with. Tank's got 20% damage reduction, and every 'MECH' units nerfed (i think it was necessary, eventhough im a terran player) and yet they still got something more to QQ about terran.
I bet they won't stop until terran race is completely erased from the game.
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On June 04 2010 14:55 PrinceXizor wrote:
For reference
DPS of an unsieged tank: 14.42 to light units and 24.03 to armored
DPS of a sieged tank: 16.66 + 8.33*(number of units in splash radius).
OLD DPS of a sieged tank: 20+ 10*(number of units in splash radius)
Each upgrade provides:
unsieged: 1.92 DPS to light units and 2.88 DPS to armored units
sieged: 1.66+.833*(number of units in splash radius) DPS
This is what I was thinking about. I think your estimation of sieged DPS is a bit of an overestimation though. The tank does not do it's full damage over the complete splash radius.
I guess it finally makes sense to unsiege tanks when fighting mass Stalkers, not even counting the blink. Before the DPS was about even, now it's high enough to warrant a choice. Which is good, unsieged tanks have some utility. I would like the choice to be even more obvious, for example by making a part of the sieged damage to light only.
In short, I like the change.
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I do gotta say, this is a good sign that Blizzard's balance is starting to swing back in the right direction. the last few patches aside from 13 were less than stellar
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On June 04 2010 15:32 siyke15 wrote:
i can tell that what every whiners want are something to QQ over with. Tank's got 20% damage reduction, and every 'MECH' units nerfed (i think it was necessary, eventhough im a terran player) and yet they still got something more to QQ about terran.
I bet they won't stop until terran race is completely erased from the game.
Even if the game achieves perfect balance, each of the races will still whine about balance. They have to blame something for losing.
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On June 04 2010 15:32 yamabuki wrote:
What? No changes to Protoss?
After 13 + 1 iterations, did they finally run out of things to nerf?
Random thought, just like zerg units moving faster on creep, toss units (except probes) should move faster within pylon power. This might help those poor zealots defend against reapers comin' in with them new nitro packs.
That would be kind of cool, see pylon highways to get around the map quicker.
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On June 04 2010 14:28 ghettohobbit2 wrote:
God, lately all of Blizzard's patches have hit the correct units, but in the complete wrong way...
Evidence:
Battlecruiser: Get's kited and doesn't do its full DPS because it can't get enough shots off, so Blizzard makes them build faster.
Ultralisk: People were complaining that it couldn't get in range because it's too big, so it's damage was increased.
Reapers: Had little viability past the early game, so Blizzard made it's speed upgrade faster.
Terran Mech: Zerg didn't have a good counter to it, so Blizzard nerfed tanks.
Perhaps because Blizzard intended a similar dynamic, but the availability and practicality of the units were off?
I mean seriously. Even an eight year old couldn't accidentally design the fact that the Battlecruiser is countered by Vikings. Obviously, this was an intentional facet of their design. Rather then changing the role of the unit, they changed how easy it was to get the unit out.
Or conversely, they disagreed with the overall role of the unit.
The previous ultralisk was designed to counter bioball, but it would have no chance of killing marauders. Moreover, the zerg already have many counters to Bioball, including banelings and fungal growth. Thus, they reddesigned it into a anti heavy armored role which the zerg lack.
Also: Nerfing tanks was dumb. Should've just nerfed thors a lot more then they did.
overall tho, among the better patches. cuz of reapers.
<3 reapers.
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Still no fix for wins not counting and me looping placements?? :/
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Holy shit why nerf tanks?
Shit shit shit shit.
Remove their anit-overkill smart-targeting, not NERF them FFS.
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See? This is what happens when you all bitch hard enough. Are you happy now? ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?
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Weapon upgrade bonus decreased from 1(+1 Light) to 1.
So basically this means that hellions will only ever do 24 dmg max to Light units?
Anyway, can someone report if the game still crashes and dies like an old crone when trying to load older replays?
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Looks like diamond league is removed. Or at least you cant get placed it in right away, went 5-0 in placement and im on plat.
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On June 04 2010 15:53 k!llua wrote: So basically this means that hellions will only ever do 24 dmg max to Light units? Anyway, can someone report if the game still crashes and dies like an old crone when trying to load older replays?
it means that they deal 1 more damage to all units, before it seems they did 2 more damage against light.
@Pylon highway: I think it would make a little more sense if the shields of units recharged faster then
but then I want an C&C styled factory that repairs all my mech units for free :>
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On June 04 2010 15:32 DooMDash wrote:
bnet is up guys.
Thanks!
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ZOMG 1 DAMAGE CHANGES!!!!
....only for upgrades.
Really lol of a patch but I feel this is the way patching should be.
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Why was the "5-0 plat?" thread deleted? There was a duplicate but now they're both gone... perhaps two mods each deleted one at the same time ;P?
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off topic but, does anyone know where i can manually download this patch? i don't wanna reinstall as it takes longer to download all the patches.
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Any Situation Report? None is included in the OP.
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On June 04 2010 16:46 Vei wrote:
Why was the "5-0 plat?" thread deleted? There was a duplicate but now they're both gone... perhaps two mods each deleted one at the same time ;P?
Yeah I found that strange, particularly considering how big an issue it has been on this board for as long as i can remember.
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I like the siege nerf, but I dont agree with the rest. But this goes for every patch: We'll just have to see how it is.
Hope they're fixing b.net soon T_T
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Atleast they are trying something with the tanks but we'll see if they went overboard. All in all I think the changes are good, cudos blizzard!
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In BW, it was common knowledge that a max terran army was stronger than a max protoss or max zerg army. The weakness was that it wasnt as mobile as the protoss or zerg army. Directly nerfing terran mech goes down the path of homogenizing the races and while it may 'balance' the game in terms of combat, it makes the game less interesting. Instead of nerfing terran mech, I would prefer to see protoss or zerg buffs. The rough general feel of races should be, terran has a scary strong army, protoss has scary strong spells/attacks, and zerg has scary traps and guerrilla tactics.
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I disagree with the mech changes they made. I don't think that was the proper solution. Mutas were already successful against mech, now they will rape..
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Ok, after some gameplay.. Anyone competent could give us a serious facts, how actually this mech nerf affected TvZ or is it too early?
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On June 04 2010 17:04 Talic_Zealot wrote:
I disagree with the mech changes they made. I don't think that was the proper solution. Mutas were already successful against mech, now they will rape..
how will reducing their damage make mutas more effective against them??
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Why would they have a patch when the beta is so close to being suspended for a few weeks?
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On June 04 2010 17:02 FinalStrike wrote:
In BW, it was common knowledge that a max terran army was stronger than a max protoss or max zerg army. The weakness was that it wasnt as mobile as the protoss or zerg army. Directly nerfing terran mech goes down the path of homogenizing the races and while it may 'balance' the game in terms of combat, it makes the game less interesting. Instead of nerfing terran mech, I would prefer to see protoss or zerg buffs. The rough general feel of races should be, terran has a scary strong army, protoss has scary strong spells/attacks, and zerg has scary traps and guerrilla tactics.
This game doesn't have to be the same as the BroodWar. I just think that buff for zerg and toss would make battles way more faster I mean, the battle length would be way shorter as it is now (the battle length is still kinda short imo). Let's see how this patch will affect the game play, then we could make some conclusions after more games played. But somehow I kinda agree with you.
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I tried to see if I could use the reset to play around with Random for awhile. Talk about getting curbstomped
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Did they reset everyone again?
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People are complaining about the cheap reaper tech, but seriously, who has ever in their life researched that upgrade? Might give reapers a small chance of mid game play with that.
I 100% support siege tank nerf, would've maybe preferred range nerf instead of damage but it's still nice.
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Weapon upgrades is whatever, siege damage nerf is quite something. Could kinda see it coming though, I mean they really demolished ground so hard.
After I got #1 platinum with terran I have been playing all the 3 races.. hm new placement matches, hard to decide what to choose. Terran is the most tedious but great fun. Playing zerg is such a rush, macro fest extreme. And protoss, warping in units everywhere is such a nice mechanic..
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On June 04 2010 17:08 arew wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 17:02 FinalStrike wrote:
In BW, it was common knowledge that a max terran army was stronger than a max protoss or max zerg army. The weakness was that it wasnt as mobile as the protoss or zerg army. Directly nerfing terran mech goes down the path of homogenizing the races and while it may 'balance' the game in terms of combat, it makes the game less interesting. Instead of nerfing terran mech, I would prefer to see protoss or zerg buffs. The rough general feel of races should be, terran has a scary strong army, protoss has scary strong spells/attacks, and zerg has scary traps and guerrilla tactics. This game doesn't have to be the same as the BroodWar. I just think that buff for zerg and toss would make battles way more faster I mean, the battle length would be way shorter as it is now (the battle length is still kinda short imo). Let's see how this patch will affect the game play, then we could make some conclusions after more games played. But somehow I kinda agree with you.
Im not asking that stasis, lurkers or dark swarm be put back in the game and a buff to protoss or zerg doesnt have to be a damage buff either. Perhaps warp prisms are easier to get/harder to kill to do a poor man's recalls into terran's base with warp gate units or more zerg units get burrowed movement? I would like to avoid t/p/z all doing the same thing, by making an army and duking it out in the middle of the map.
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LOVE the patch
And to those who say the siege nerf doesnt help much as zerg, since it doesnt decrease the number of hits needed: It DOES help alot, since they usually dont have only siegetanks, but also thors, hellions, marauders or whatever, and after one siegehit, the units now have 10 more health before they die to those other units.
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Seemed like a good patch overall. The tank nerf may or may not be needed, but I like how they try to make people actually use all the upgrades in serious games. Noone ever seemed to get the reaper upgrade.
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great patch, makes lings a litle bit more viable against tanks!
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5-0 puts you in platinum now???
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omg wow now broodlords are terrible man they are fucking retarded why even go hive tech
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On June 04 2010 18:06 Dukke wrote:
5-0 puts you in platinum now???
yeah lol same, I went 5-0 and got placed into platinum =D seems we'll have some easy bash.
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On June 04 2010 18:06 arew wrote:yeah lol same, I went 5-0 and got placed into platinum =D seems we'll have some easy bash.
You are the shit guys !
For real: everyboy is platinum now with 5:0 (happened to me aswell), so it won't be any easier for you guys.
and once you get into diamond it will be rly nice, because you only get decent opponents.
I only had one game where my opponent wasn't doing some sort of cheese and it was a TvT, he went mass viking with some tanks on scrap station, this strateigy is a huge epic fail now, tvt will change a lot.
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haha bnet forums already full of kids comapling reapers OP
wow just wow ...
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i think they should change the tank to 40+20 vs armored instead of 60 or 50 pure dmg, pure dmg will always own the shit out of ling and hydra before they reach and roach will always have too little dmg to stop the terran army
hellions are there to stop the light units but blizzard isnt realizing that tanks do their job 10 times better
i think it was uncalled for to nerf to hellion dmg as it attacks so slowly, same with the broodlord dmg. also dont agree with how they act on the tank as i explained previously but im glad they r aware of the problem just dont know how to deal with it
oh and forgot about the reapers, love that change, totally fair. ive almost never upgraded that just because its too costly to fit in very early game. might get used now when reaper rushing i dont know
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Maybe they're just regularizing upgrades? The hellion damage nerf is really minor especially. Thor upgrade nerf can make a really difference. The broodlord upgrade nerf does nothing.
I think the tank nerf might the biggest implications for TvT, with combat shield marines not being oneshotted anymore until +2 (if +1 armor). And +1 tanks don't two shot marauders. Probably you want to spend your money on tanks and vikings still, though.
Has anyone gotten into diamond yet?
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Who reads the bnet forums anyway ?. I tried it several times... afterwards I had to slap mysefl for actually believe theres anythig worth reading
Full of whiners/10 years old just like the WoW forums.
Im still curious how the change will effect TvT.
Im kinda worried about Tvp though I kinda liked getting some tanks/ravens into my bio mix
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as stubborn as blizzard is with their wierdo bnet at least they care about community input about the actual game
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Its fun how they try to correct the flaws of their game design with changes to the dmg numbers.
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oh ya I forgot to mention they fixed the black minimap in replay problem!
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hmmm, how come nobody is in diamond league ?
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On June 04 2010 18:06 crimsn wrote:
omg wow now broodlords are terrible man they are fucking retarded why even go hive tech
I really hope that's a joke.
That's like the smallest nerf imaginable to broodlords considering most of their DPS comes from broodlings anyway, which have separate upgrades.
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My...beautiful tanks...
+ Show Spoiler +NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! + Show Spoiler +Just kidding, good patch overall poking at the mech issue.
I personally play both Toss and Terran right now so it's both good and bad in my biased eyes.
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Finally the T nurf!!
is the reaper buff is really needed? I do wonder though how a 6 rax reaper rush with speed is going to play out :-/
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On June 04 2010 19:23 aka_star wrote:
Finally the T nurf!!
is the reaper buff is really needed? I do wonder though how a 6 rax reaper rush with speed is going to play out :-/
rofl people are clueless
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Why didn't they change the overlord speed upgrade back to 50/50 then? I hate this lack of consistency...
Siege tank damage nerf is always good of course :p
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The tank nerf is really only effecting splashed units. It'll still kill most targets in either 1 or 3 hits.
With the smart casting non overkill of tanks in this game, it's totally understandable.
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On June 04 2010 18:20 MorroW wrote:
i think they should change the tank to 40+20 vs armored instead of 60 or 50 pure dmg, pure dmg will always own the shit out of ling and hydra before they reach and roach will always have too little dmg to stop the terran army
hellions are there to stop the light units but blizzard isnt realizing that tanks do their job 10 times better
i think it was uncalled for to nerf to hellion dmg as it attacks so slowly, same with the broodlord dmg. also dont agree with how they act on the tank as i explained previously but im glad they r aware of the problem just dont know how to deal with it
oh and forgot about the reapers, love that change, totally fair. ive almost never upgraded that just because its too costly to fit in very early game. might get used now when reaper rushing i dont know
One of the reasons they nerfed the tank I think is to make the ultra stronger against mech. With 40+20 = 60 dmg against ultras, they still suck bad ass. Ultras combined with frenzy should at least now in theory be good against mech.
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On June 04 2010 10:50 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 10:45 PanN wrote:On June 04 2010 10:41 TeWy wrote:
Zergs are winning almost every single tournament since day 1 but just because some noobs complained about terran mech, it still got nerfed, what a fuking joke. Yeah just a bunch of noobs complained, it wasn't a list of good players or anything ..oh wait... When it comes to Zerg it doesn't matter because the entire Zerg playerbase is as whiny as a bunch of children. They've whined since day 1 of the beta about EVERYTHING. What is it that attracts these people to Zerg?
I dunno, I've seen some of the Zerg players points and they do have some valid ones (I'm Toss)
Their race really is /boring/ they have zerglings, hydras and roaches as their meat and potatoes units, the other 2 races seem to have some more variety at the low end.
Also the recent roach nerf is bullshit, 2 food for the roach - ok cool if that's the case make it strong again - put the high health regen or armour back.
It must be very difficult to balance Zerg because of just how different they are as a race overall.
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Cheers blizzard. You did something I actually approve of. Now how bout those chat channels?
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On June 04 2010 10:53 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:
and we all know 1a is the ultimate goal blizzard has for their casuzals in evry situation eh
I know I'm a total chobo but if you want to complain about SC2 being a 1a game then people need to continue to petition Blizzard to buff the armour of EVERY SINGLE UNIT and nerf the attack strength.
Even if it's only 10% changes - the current strength of the units, combined with their god awful health / armour / shield means that most huge battles are over so god damned m.f.n quickly that there really is no time for exceptional, high skill and exciting micro - even the top players don't always dance their units.
I know it's a War 3 thing but I really did respect dancing units out, mid battle healing units, etc - it's here in SC2 but fucking rare because the poor players are so busy doing other stuff that it's easier to just do a '1a' fight with a good unit mix and at best do some queued focus fire against the enemy using hard counter against hard counter :/
I've seen very few replays where I've just gone 'holy shit that was a sick move' :/
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On June 04 2010 11:34 Atrio wrote:*facepalm* I like this patch, except for not fixing the ultras/archons.
There's archons in SC2?
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This is definitely a community patch!
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On June 04 2010 12:40 InfiniteIce wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 12:35 HuskyTheHusky wrote:I personally think its great they're nerfing damage across the board. They have been doing this to a ton of units with each patch (no protoss nerfs this time, but they got it a lot in the past). Actually allowing units to survive for more than 2 seconds should be pretty fun . ^ QFT, totally agree. Hey, maybe now we'll actually be able to micro a few units so battles last longer than 12 seconds!!! I like the way DPS is going down en totale.
Also agree with this post.
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Those balance-changes (not Patch15, but more or less in general) are so pointless IMHO.
Why not make changes that can't be done when the game is out? They'll be continuing to patch anyways once the game is out, but we will have to live with no highground-advantage, crappy Unit-control and overall broken Units....
Im truly unhappy and I will continue not to play, which is what I've done since patch 13... It's just so disappointing to see Blizzard making those IMHO unnecessary changes and not caring about the gamemechanics, that are just not as good as the fans expected, at least based on what I've heard and read, which is of course highly biased.
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I'd say Vikings where the unit that needed nerfing, it's very mobile and with ravens it completely dominates air. I would nerf its speed to make it a little less mobile. The tank nerf... not so sure, terran late game was the problem, and this will probably effect early/mid-game mech play most..
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On June 04 2010 14:06 Angra wrote:
i cant a-move into a ball of siege tanks.. they must be overpowered
So as has been said multiple times in this thread, it's ok if Terran can A-move into the other races but not the other way round?
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Good patch, will try to use more reaper in early 2v2 now when I get T as random :o
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On June 04 2010 20:29 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:06 Angra wrote:
i cant a-move into a ball of siege tanks.. they must be overpowered So as has been said multiple times in this thread, it's ok if Terran can A-move into the other races but not the other way round?
Great going sir, you must be an excellent R player and as such completely unbiased.
Banelings and forcefields don't really force a T player to micro his army so he won't get completely obliverated. Also nevermind the fact that races should have unique units and tactics, it's not that big of deal anyway.
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Its looking like up to this point noone has been placed in diamond, people with 17-2 records are still sitting in platinum. I'm curious to hear if anyone does get placed in diamond and what kind of record they had when they got there, just wondering if they possibly made it harder to get into ontop of not being able to be placed into it, which would be great. Or the glass is half empty view point is, they removed diamond altogether =/.
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On June 04 2010 20:29 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 14:06 Angra wrote:
i cant a-move into a ball of siege tanks.. they must be overpowered So as has been said multiple times in this thread, it's ok if Terran can A-move into the other races but not the other way round?
Thing is, siege tanks don't just A-move do they? they have to get in position and take time to siege up.
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Guess reapers are the way to go early game esp vs zerg (but its such a bitch to micro )
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Since this is the place to discuss this I`ll bring it up:
What do you guys think of the new way the placements work? You apparently cannot be placed in Diamond any longer. This seems like yet another example of Blizzard listening to it`s community! Makes me think positive thoughts about the future of this game.
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On June 04 2010 20:49 Grend wrote:
Since this is the place to discuss this I`ll bring it up:
What do you guys think of the new way the placements work? You apparently cannot be placed in Diamond any longer. This seems like yet another example of Blizzard listening to it`s community! Makes me think positive thoughts about the future of this game.
Yes, this is a cool stuff, finally :p
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On June 04 2010 20:49 Grend wrote:
Since this is the place to discuss this I`ll bring it up:
What do you guys think of the new way the placements work? You apparently cannot be placed in Diamond any longer. This seems like yet another example of Blizzard listening to it`s community! Makes me think positive thoughts about the future of this game.
Oh that's a nice change! I wonder how many people were raging when they got 5-0 and ended up in platinum?
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can't find a thread on this, but is the diamond league even around after this patch? everyone i know thats gone 5-0 is in platinum and there are people who are 20-2 records that havnt been put in diamond yet.
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Tank nerf wtf... now they are even worse vs protoss. I guess it was to help TvZ balance but imo it'd be better to make roaches be 1.5 supply.
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We're getting there. If they don't hit the soft spot in a month, hey , they're still working on Starcraft for 2 more years, it's not like we can't expect the blizzard installer to download new patches for the released game .
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On June 04 2010 09:03 hordeau wrote:
They gave up on protoss nerfing
Lol yes they did.
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On June 04 2010 20:54 stroggos wrote:
can't find a thread on this, but is the diamond league even around after this patch? everyone i know thats gone 5-0 is in platinum and there are people who are 20-2 records that havnt been put in diamond yet.
I am 21-4 and still Platinum, so Idk. Its either INSANELY hard, or it doesn't exist.
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On June 04 2010 21:11 Joseki wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 20:54 stroggos wrote:
can't find a thread on this, but is the diamond league even around after this patch? everyone i know thats gone 5-0 is in platinum and there are people who are 20-2 records that havnt been put in diamond yet. I am 21-4 and still Platinum, so Idk. Its either INSANELY hard, or it doesn't exist.
Yeah i've been wondering that too.
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Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know.
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On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know.
No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta.
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On June 04 2010 20:43 Panoptic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 20:29 abrasion wrote:On June 04 2010 14:06 Angra wrote:
i cant a-move into a ball of siege tanks.. they must be overpowered So as has been said multiple times in this thread, it's ok if Terran can A-move into the other races but not the other way round? Thing is, siege tanks don't just A-move do they? they have to get in position and take time to siege up.
Terran have more units than just the siege tanks.
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On June 04 2010 17:51 Viruuus wrote:
And to those who say the siege nerf doesnt help much as zerg, since it doesnt decrease the number of hits needed: It DOES help alot, since they usually dont have only siegetanks, but also thors, hellions, marauders or whatever, and after one siegehit, the units now have 10 more health before they die to those other units.
SO much QFT, assuming that this post is sarcasm. Which I hope it is.
The siege nerf is STILL IRRELEVANT. Until they remove the tank smartcast/smartattack/whatever, tanks are still going to completely dominate ground bio (aka Zerg).
IMO, the tank nerf was intended exclusively to make Ultralisks more viable against T mech, which they, still, are not.
Arbitrary patch, irrelevant changes...
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It's not completely crazy to think diamond was simply taken out, its another step in the direction the current ladder system is already going ( making bad players feel good ). Essentially its going to push people who were sub diamond up to the top league since there are less leagues altogether. Its very strange they would stealth change something like that though, they did announce the change when they put in diamond afterall. Who knows ...
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Could be that it is set up in such a way that there has to be enough good players before a new diamond league is created. So when sufficent players are doing well, all of them gets moved up.
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Woohooo! I am a diamond T player and I must say that I love this patch!!
Even though tanks are still immensly supply and gas heavy (3 food/125 gas), I can now save money by not buying the Siege Mode upgrade at all since it's becoming more and more pointless.
As a Terran player I have felt following: TvZ has been fairly balanced, especially after patch 12. TvT is a single strategy matchup where the guy with the fastest tank out, and the most vikings in the air wins.
Though the TvP matchup is what I want to discuss.
Playing Terran I have laid ear to alot of Protoss complaints about mainly two things; How incredibly insane EMP is and how two ghosts nothing short of "neutralize" an entire toss army. Secondly how strong tanks were.
From my POV TvP is roughly translated "Total immobility versus Perfect flexibility/mobility". The way this is supposed to be understood requires a longer explanation;
In a TvP matchup going bio is quite normal. Playing bio as such dosn't affect mobility at all, on the contrary! The moment a Protoss player gets as much as a single Colossus however, we NEED tanks. Tanks is aside from vikings the only thing we have to effectively kill Colosi unless we want to focus on Marauders doing the job, which we don't want to since they are hardcountered by just a few more Colosi thereby playing your opponents hand.
Throughout the post we want to remember that the Protoss wants to catch the Terran while he is moving Tanks. The larger amount of Tanks moving, the better for the Protoss. He also want the chance to neutralize any EMP threat, but that is second to neutralizing the tanks.
Tanks are quite good unsieged but in order for us to effectively take down Colosi (and effectively defend our army from getting melted at the same time), we need the in Siege Mode. THE MOMENT a Terran player goes into Siege Mode he has limited himself to TWO options, nothing more. First he can try to wait and hope that his opponent is cocky enough to try and take on his entire army. Theoretically a Terran will demolish any Protoss making this mistake, so that rarely happens. Secondly he can try to slowly push the opponent by unsieging a few tanks at a time, moving them one by one or in pairs of two depending on the amount of tanks. Some Terran favor adding bunkers to this push seeing as they are practically free due to Salvage, and provide your weak bio (Marines) with an additional 400 HP. Eventually this might lead to reaching the opponents base and beginning a proper assault...
Meanwhile let's have a look at the Protoss options. If the Terran player chooses to sit back and not do the slow push, the Protoss has all the time in the world to expand and in a suprisingly quick manner, get complete map control. When having a signifigant force, the Terran player will rarely allow this however, so; If the Terran player indeed goes for the slow push, the Protoss player get a few more options:
1. In most cases he will have his main army in front of the Terran player's slowly pushing army, thereby hindering any "fast" movement, only pulling back when the Terran resieges Tanks in range of the Protoss army. While this is on, the Protoss already will have the tech to get Warp Prisms. 1 Warp Prism in a Terran main will force him to keep focus there, and in most scenarios retreat part of/or all of his army (depending on the size of the drop). Self said, when the army is moving, the Protoss strikes and wins. He will hereby have neutralized the threat of Siege Mode tanks (Especially with Blink).
Or: He can poke to the Terran army while he is slowpushing using some blink micro Stalkers or Immortals, to try and lure of the Ghosts EMP, or buy time for his templars to either Storm or Feedback hereby neutralizing or at least minimizing the theat of EMP, making a normal attack on a Tank army alot easier.
Or: He can even try to sneak his army behind yours defending on the map, sometime resulting in him retreating, other times in a basetrade.
Now comes what you've all been reading for: My point!
TvP has always been about mobility vs non mobility and the ONLY definite Terran strenght has been that of pure raw damage which is what is now getting nerfed. Especially against good Protoss players that are able to decide wether to retreat from getting EMP'ed to recharge shields and go again when the Ghost energy is down, that extra hit that it will now take to kill a Zealot and a Stalker is going to be HUGE. I agree that Tanks were powerful and I still belive that they are, but I also belive that modifying our only real strenght is very significant seeing as it is STILL the Protoss that sits with the options and possibilities.
Just some guys thoughts...
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On June 04 2010 21:25 abrasion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 20:43 Panoptic wrote:On June 04 2010 20:29 abrasion wrote:On June 04 2010 14:06 Angra wrote:
i cant a-move into a ball of siege tanks.. they must be overpowered So as has been said multiple times in this thread, it's ok if Terran can A-move into the other races but not the other way round? Thing is, siege tanks don't just A-move do they? they have to get in position and take time to siege up. Terran have more units than just the siege tanks.
Yeah, but when you quoted Angra he was referring to siege tanks.
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On June 04 2010 21:24 Therapist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know. No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta.
Blizzard is testing if getting into Diamond is tough enough. If someone manages to enter in 3 days, they'll increase the difficulty lol
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I'll take no Protoss buffs over a Protoss nerf anyday. I think this will work out in the end. Mech play was a sure fire way to steam roll people.
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On June 04 2010 09:11 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:09 prototype. wrote:
Doesn't the 50 damage sieged tank still kill every zerg unit in the same amount of hits? If your fighting with just tanks then yes but less damage from tanks mean the zerg army will last longer against the bio.
oh no, not lasting longer against the bio!
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On June 04 2010 21:24 Therapist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know. No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta.
The time left in the beta doesn't matter as long as Diamond is hard to get into.
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I feel really, really bad for anyone i play against in patch 15. Prepare to be raped by reapers ALL GAME LONG BABY!
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You're all overreacting about the Reaper upgrade cost decrease.
The upgrade was never really significant and had very little effect. 100/100 for that shitty upgrade was quite expensive and upgraded reapers aren't thay fast
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I dont understand it... My problem with siege tank dmg was that it was 60 normal damage... I would have preferred like a 35(+30 armored) change or something like that... Its hard to counter cause its very strong against all ground units... But thats only my opinion... TvX will now be either tanks tanks and tanks and some other units for meatshield purpose, or no tanks cause they suck (depending on how significant is the change)... But thats my opinion only, maybe im wrong and it will be good...
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I'll say it 100x, the solution should have been a Zerg specific ability to help counter Terran, not a Terran nerf.
But I'm still not sure that would make Zerg any better against mech. What should they do, give 'lings an ability that says "LAWL at seige tanks?" What is that gonna do against Toss? Besides, they supposedly did that with Ultras (although I don't agree, even though rolled upgrades is a good start).
Blizzard's philosophy seems to be give units general abilities to counter all the races (yes, even EMP seems useful against Zerg or TvT).
I like Idra's ling/bling drops against Marine/Tank vs. T in some of the vods I watched. Roaches / Corruptor's into Broolords with map control. Corruptors can keep ravens under control and you can burrow roaches for some sneaky damage too.
Keeping the Terran contained is the big issue. If you can hold them to one base + nat you can starve them out if you're patient. You cannot, however, let them contain you. Speelings on creep vs. Mech cannot be understated if you catch them off guard. I've also had reasonable success with 2 overseers contaminating the factories while you harrass the front.
A lot of the problem seems to be impatience and zerg just saying "I can't a-move into a wall of tanks WTH nerf!" Of course you can't, you're not supposed to.
As far as the other changes go, I don't think hellion harass is gonna stop ZvT. The nerf effects the upgrade and not the pre-igniter, so not a huge deal. I think the upgrades are meant to taper off the effect you see of 3/3 thors/tanks/vikings just owning everything (including Toss ><).
Just my 2 vespene.
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i can see the outcry with the nitropack buff XD
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On June 04 2010 22:17 lolaloc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 21:24 Therapist wrote:On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know. No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta. Blizzard is testing if getting into Diamond is tough enough. If someone manages to enter in 3 days, they'll increase the difficulty lol
I really hope that's the case and the new diamond will actually be something like A level on iccup, only the really, really good players can reach it.
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On June 04 2010 09:02 Darow wrote:
Siege range should be decrease imo.
wtf no? thats the only reason ppl use seige tanks cause they SIEGE
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On June 04 2010 09:05 synapse wrote:I'm guessing the main point of this patch was the change in the ladder promotion / ranking system... Does this mean extension of SCIIBeta? :D (I mean, what can they actually test in 4 days )
Beta wont be extended. They have ordered the hardware and need to get that idle hardware hooked up. If anything they will be banking on the phase 2 of the beta to get some more test in before they send out the next patch for people buying the current release.
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On June 04 2010 23:14 eNtitY~ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 21:24 Therapist wrote:On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know. No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta. The time left in the beta doesn't matter as long as Diamond is hard to get into.
From blizzard's point of view, they are looking to test every change they make and with 3 days left I don't see how that's possible for them if diamond really exists.
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Has anyone managed to get into diamond yet? I rather enjoy that it takes time to get into.
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Two patches in a row with no protoss nerfs! Hooray!!!
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On June 05 2010 00:13 Razamataz wrote:
Two patches in a row with no protoss nerfs! Hooray!!!
No announced nerfs! Kek
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United States12238 Posts
On June 04 2010 20:54 stroggos wrote:
can't find a thread on this, but is the diamond league even around after this patch? everyone i know thats gone 5-0 is in platinum and there are people who are 20-2 records that havnt been put in diamond yet.
There's probably either a minimum MMR or people simply haven't played enough games to reach a review checkpoint while they're eligible to be promoted (people were originally getting promoted usually after what, 30-40 games?). It's also possible that review checkpoints to break into Diamond now also occur less frequently.
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it's absurd how blizz is obeying the community
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On June 04 2010 09:02 Darow wrote:
Siege range should be decrease imo.
yea range should be decreased to 7, dmg should be changed to 15+10, splash should be removed
oh wait ...
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Just played 5 games, won 4 and got placed in Gold?
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Won all my placement matches only to be placed in platinum. boo hoo
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won 4 games got into plat as well! wonder if they increased difficulty of getting into diamond, or it could be just that placement matches are way harder just after a wipe.
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yay no toss nerf this patch
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Tanks got that +10 hp, so while they may take 1 more shot to kill a certain unit, they can take one more hit in some respects. I don't know if this forces an armory as soon as tanks are coming out to get upgraded as soon as possible, sacrifice a tank or two for armory plus weapon damage. The power of marines/tanks is pretty strong right now, I think this damage decrease might be due to the cheapness of marines. It's not just the tank damage, but it's the high rate of marine fire supplementing them that makes the tank damage stand out, 10 less damage, but a stimmed marine essentially makes up for this, it was just more devastating earlier. A nerf is a nerf when you first hear about it, but I think it'll be ok. It's going against the immortal/collossus/zealot mix I'm worried about.
And if you weren't seeing reaper rushes you certainly will now. You can already get a successful reaper harass from a nonproxied barracks on certain maps, I think a proxy on a lot of maps will be more of a threat than it is. May warrant an earlier scout in some cases. Who knows with it being so cheap it may entice people will start building them into their unit comps (ha!), the ole 5 reaper squad to hit and run production buildings on a map like LT or something.
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its also possible there is no diamond?
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On June 05 2010 00:44 teekuppi wrote:
Won all my placement matches only to be placed in platinum. boo hoo
Wait? Blizz is listening to the community??
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yay diamond finally means something
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On June 04 2010 23:42 Puosu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 22:17 lolaloc wrote:On June 04 2010 21:24 Therapist wrote:On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know. No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta. Blizzard is testing if getting into Diamond is tough enough. If someone manages to enter in 3 days, they'll increase the difficulty lol I really hope that's the case and the new diamond will actually be something like A level on iccup, only the really, really good players can reach it.
lol if they made it as tough as A on ICCUP you'd have like 10 diamond players on the whole NA servers
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On June 05 2010 01:05 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 23:42 Puosu wrote:On June 04 2010 22:17 lolaloc wrote:On June 04 2010 21:24 Therapist wrote:On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know. No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta. Blizzard is testing if getting into Diamond is tough enough. If someone manages to enter in 3 days, they'll increase the difficulty lol I really hope that's the case and the new diamond will actually be something like A level on iccup, only the really, really good players can reach it. lol if they made it as tough as A on ICCUP you'd have like 10 diamond players on the whole NA servers
yeah i hope its like C or C- on ICCup
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Wooooo! Diamond is now a prestigous bracket to be in, and not a clusterfuck of noobs!
THE HIIILLLS ARE ALLIIIIIIVE..
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how can anyone say that almost 20% less damage from siege tank is still not good enough, especially as they've obviously not even played more than a few hours since the patch...
fail.
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On June 04 2010 14:55 Sputty wrote:
Would 40 damage + 20 vs armored in siege have worked better? It wouldn't have helped against roaches but lots of shit wouldn't die nearly as fast against tanks in all matchups that right now instadies to tanks
I suggested this a while back. Because it would keep the siege tank's damage the same vs all of the things it normal was meant to kill in the toss army while only making it less useful against zerg hydras. (also it wouldn't one hit kill marines)
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it doesn't 1-hit upgraded marines now... unless for some sick reason the terran is upgrading vehicle weapons.
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On June 05 2010 05 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 05 2010 05 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:28 tarsier wrote:
it doesn't 1-hit upgraded marines now... unless for some sick reason the terran is upgrading vehicle weapons.
A meching terran upgrading vehicle weapons is soooo weird!
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damn i went 5:0 and im in platinum :S
edit: ok I calmed down seeing that it isnt just me
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damn u tought they understand that you need to work for getting in diamond
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On June 05 2010 00:57 Sv1 wrote:
Tanks got that +10 hp, so while they may take 1 more shot to kill a certain unit, they can take one more hit in some respects. I don't know if this forces an armory as soon as tanks are coming out to get upgraded as soon as possible, sacrifice a tank or two for armory plus weapon damage. The power of marines/tanks is pretty strong right now, I think this damage decrease might be due to the cheapness of marines. It's not just the tank damage, but it's the high rate of marine fire supplementing them that makes the tank damage stand out, 10 less damage, but a stimmed marine essentially makes up for this, it was just more devastating earlier. A nerf is a nerf when you first hear about it, but I think it'll be ok. It's going against the immortal/collossus/zealot mix I'm worried about.
And if you weren't seeing reaper rushes you certainly will now. You can already get a successful reaper harass from a nonproxied barracks on certain maps, I think a proxy on a lot of maps will be more of a threat than it is. May warrant an earlier scout in some cases. Who knows with it being so cheap it may entice people will start building them into their unit comps (ha!), the ole 5 reaper squad to hit and run production buildings on a map like LT or something.
Agreed. Previously, tanks were a bit too powerful upon reaching a certain number clumped and this nerf was warranted. The degree of which I am not so sure though. I worry about the immortal colossi and zealot ball mix also, however, I think EMP will still be the determinative factor in most encounters.
In regards to reaper rushes, from the couple of games I played as terran, I really feel this change to the speed upgrade going overboard. TvZ on LT, the zerg could do nothing to defend against my group of 5-6 speed-reapers, it seemed near exploitative.
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I think increasing the cost of tanks would've been better than decreasing their damage. 150/125 is pretty cheap for something with the amount of damage and rate of fire of a siege tank.
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I played a bunch of games today and almost no terran went tanks. It's really annoying trying to counter a certain strategy when you don't have any friends to practice with.
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Is anyone else having crash problems with the client since patch 15? I crashed maybe twice before patch 15..now have crashed about 7 games, definitely over half of what I've tried to play today.
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i played like 10 games in patch 15 then logged on recently it tried to patch and kept failing, so now i need a reinstall and update of all 15 patches. yay blizzard.
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Just got promo, looks like they fixed it.
![[image loading]](http://i50.tinypic.com/8yystf.png)
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Quick fix to imba TvP would be to make collosus not targetable by air so OP vikings can't own it. Or bring viking range air to air range down to 5 so stalkers can, you know, actually protect collosus instead of being useless tank folder.
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or to learn to use pheonix/carrier/hallucination/HT or any of the other little explored units in Protoss's arsonal
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This promotion thing is messed up. I just went 4-5 in 4v4. Previously, I was in Gold with losing my two most recent games and yet I got promoted to Platinum. Go fig. *shrug*
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On June 05 2010 00:03 TheAngelofDeath wrote:
Has anyone managed to get into diamond yet? I rather enjoy that it takes time to get into.
Took me about 20 games.
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I'm 20-5 and still in platinum. I went 5-0 in placement matches, got put into gold then won 2 games and got promoted to platinum. Still stuck at plat with ~400 points.
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first patch that toss hasnt been nerfed = wewt, we still have never receieved a buff tho as far as i can remember lol
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On June 05 2010 10:44 PrinceXizor wrote:
or to learn to use pheonix/carrier/hallucination/HT or any of the other little explored units in Protoss's arsonal
Cause phoenix and carriers own vikings.
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On June 04 2010 23:48 Executioner.zealot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 09:05 synapse wrote:I'm guessing the main point of this patch was the change in the ladder promotion / ranking system... Does this mean extension of SCIIBeta? :D (I mean, what can they actually test in 4 days ) Beta wont be extended. They have ordered the hardware and need to get that idle hardware hooked up. If anything they will be banking on the phase 2 of the beta to get some more test in before they send out the next patch for people buying the current release.
How do we know they've ordered hardware?
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Love the change to reapers..Went from never losing vs reaper harass, to I have now lost 5 games in a row after 5-0ing my placements to reapers and got bounced to shitty gold when I should be in diamond. Little irritating considering I scouted and built for them and my stalkers flatly can't counter them again. This should be a fun patch. /sarcasm.
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What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result.
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just wana tell everyone that diamond is backed up, rank2 diamond right now =))
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On June 05 2010 12:10 -orb- wrote:
What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result.
You're 100% wrong. Before there was absolutely no choice - the reaper upgrade was trash. Now there is a choice on whether you want to include reapers into your strategy past 2 minutes...now you can use them for a whopping 2 minutes or so longer (lol).
Anyways, now there is choice between stim/concussive/reaper, which also means many diff styles and such.
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On June 05 2010 01:05 antelope591 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 23:42 Puosu wrote:On June 04 2010 22:17 lolaloc wrote:On June 04 2010 21:24 Therapist wrote:On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know. No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta. Blizzard is testing if getting into Diamond is tough enough. If someone manages to enter in 3 days, they'll increase the difficulty lol I really hope that's the case and the new diamond will actually be something like A level on iccup, only the really, really good players can reach it. lol if they made it as tough as A on ICCUP you'd have like 10 diamond players on the whole NA servers
A really should just be Proleague. But even then Diamond should be High C/low b.
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On June 05 2010 12:13 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 01:05 antelope591 wrote:On June 04 2010 23:42 Puosu wrote:On June 04 2010 22:17 lolaloc wrote:On June 04 2010 21:24 Therapist wrote:On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know. No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta. Blizzard is testing if getting into Diamond is tough enough. If someone manages to enter in 3 days, they'll increase the difficulty lol I really hope that's the case and the new diamond will actually be something like A level on iccup, only the really, really good players can reach it. lol if they made it as tough as A on ICCUP you'd have like 10 diamond players on the whole NA servers A really should just be Proleague. But even then Diamond should be High C/low b.
boo low C i want to be in diamond
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United States47024 Posts
On June 05 2010 12:13 Half wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 01:05 antelope591 wrote:On June 04 2010 23:42 Puosu wrote:On June 04 2010 22:17 lolaloc wrote:On June 04 2010 21:24 Therapist wrote:On June 04 2010 21:19 weepingblades wrote:
Has anyone been put in the bottom league? I wonder if they simply went back to Copper -> Plat. Seems unlikely, but you never know. No .. I went 0-5 on my spare account it's still bronze. It must be a glitch, it doesn't make sense to make it this difficult to get into diamond with only 3 days left in the beta. Blizzard is testing if getting into Diamond is tough enough. If someone manages to enter in 3 days, they'll increase the difficulty lol I really hope that's the case and the new diamond will actually be something like A level on iccup, only the really, really good players can reach it. lol if they made it as tough as A on ICCUP you'd have like 10 diamond players on the whole NA servers A really should just be Proleague. But even then Diamond should be High C/low b.
The problem is that player skill ultimately is relative. The only way you're going to scale how good players are in each league reliably is by how many people you let in, and right now, there just aren't that many people that are the equivalent of B/C level at the game. Even if you put them in one league, they would be matched against people the league below them anyway, because there simply wouldn't be enough of them for them to always find matches against one another.
Obviously that'll change as the game progresses, but I expect that it should sort itself out.
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On June 05 2010 00:36 NeoScout wrote:
it's absurd how blizz is obeying the community
probably because the community was right
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has anyone else seem a problem in the ladder with points/stats of players?
i've seen a player that is 5-3 w/ over 110, matchlist shows him as 6-3 with a 40 pt win, yet he was over 110 pts, how the fuck is that possible?
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On June 05 2010 12:13 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 12:10 -orb- wrote:
What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result. You're 100% wrong. Before there was absolutely no choice - the reaper upgrade was trash. Now there is a choice on whether you want to include reapers into your strategy past 2 minutes...now you can use them for a whopping 2 minutes or so longer (lol). Anyways, now there is choice between stim/concussive/reaper, which also means many diff styles and such.
I'm 100% wrong and there was absolutely no choice before?
That's funny because personally I've used the upgrade many times and I've seen in it plenty of high level games.
I guess that makes it not 100% doesn't it? And since it was about it being in existence at all I guess that makes you 100% wrong.
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So...yea..does anyone else find it hilariously retarded that, going by their logic from the last patch of making ovie speed 100/100 was to remove the 'gimmie' factor but they give terran ANOTHER gimmie to go with concussive shells?
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On June 05 2010 15:18 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 12:13 avilo wrote:On June 05 2010 12:10 -orb- wrote:
What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result. You're 100% wrong. Before there was absolutely no choice - the reaper upgrade was trash. Now there is a choice on whether you want to include reapers into your strategy past 2 minutes...now you can use them for a whopping 2 minutes or so longer (lol). Anyways, now there is choice between stim/concussive/reaper, which also means many diff styles and such. I'm 100% wrong and there was absolutely no choice before? That's funny because personally I've used the upgrade many times and I've seen in it plenty of high level games. I guess that makes it not 100% doesn't it? And since it was about it being in existence at all I guess that makes you 100% wrong.
While I agree that the guy you quoted is being an idiot, you surely must agree that 100/100 for a unit upgrade that will likely only be used for a few minutes in the early game isn't exactly encouraging
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Sooo is there a diamond league now ?Or the highest is platinum
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On June 05 2010 12:10 -orb- wrote:
What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result.
Warp gate at 50/50 is a good choice I see no one complaining about it.
It will be a choice, player won't train stimpack+marine's shield+marauder's slow+reaper's speed. 99% people took stimpack over this uppgrade, it was not really a choice before.
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On June 05 2010 12:10 -orb- wrote:
What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result.
Lol, agreed.
Marauder : concussive shell lowered to 50/50
Reaper: nitro boost lowered to 50/50
stim cost lowered, marine combat shield cost lowered
zerg:
overlord speed increased to 100/100
burrow increased to 100/100 research time doubled
neural parasite 150/150
i know these are different abilities, but really, what gives?
On one hand they state that they want upgrades to be choices that are being made by the player. yet they streamline the terran upgrades to be dirt cheap while at the same time enforcing their philosophy on zerg. lol.
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Man I guess Blizz does give in to whining. Its crazy that no one used tanks and then all it took was a few pro replays of tanks being used and BAM everyone goes mech. Now I wonder what the next T unit is gona be that were going to switch using and that everyone willc omplain about. Its gona be the repears because now people will get the upgrade and keep a small pack of them around for econ harass mid game through late game, calling it right now.
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On June 05 2010 16:08 XXXSmOke wrote:
Man I guess Blizz does give in to whining. Its crazy that no one used tanks and then all it took was a few pro replays of tanks being used and BAM everyone goes mech.
No it took patches
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On June 05 2010 11:00 hacpee wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 10:44 PrinceXizor wrote:
or to learn to use pheonix/carrier/hallucination/HT or any of the other little explored units in Protoss's arsonal
Cause phoenix and carriers own vikings.
and BC's and Vikes own phoenixs
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On June 05 2010 12:10 -orb- wrote:
What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result.
I completely agree, orb. Cheap upgrades are pointless in starcraft: they become another thing to click while macro ing instead of a strategic alternative. If the upgrade is too weak to justify 100/100, it should be buffed or removed entirely, not cheapened.
oh, it's not just Terran though--don't forget about warp gates!
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haha I went 9-0 at first. Then lost 3 games in a row and was promoted to diamond after the 3rd loss
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was 500 diamond (34-13) before patch 15, now in gold after going 4-1 and losing to a very good player (Talked to him afterwards, was 700 diamond, 2k plat before that). Won 8 straight easily against absolute scrubs after that...still no promotion.
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I'm 20-1 and still nothing, this is really weird if diamond really exists.
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Funny how tanks still are unbeatable by marauders or anything else in TvT.
on most maps it just is the same old story ...
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This Tank "nerf" didn't accomplish anything for ZvT. Tanks still melt any possible ground army, except now the "critical mass" of tanks is 10-12 instead of ~8. Big woop! You still can't push him from the time he gets the first one.
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Seriously the initial placementmatches system is really fucked up atm... I played against one placementsplayer, and four bronzeleagueplayers, I won all five placementmatches and got placed in platinum. I really think that your placement should reflect on what (league)players you've beaten and not how many placementsmatches you've won.
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The ranking/division system doesn't end after the placement matches..
There is no system which can calculate your lvl in 5-10 game so every system sucks
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On June 05 2010 19:00 zerorepent wrote:
Seriously the initial placementmatches system is really fucked up atm... I played against one placementsplayer, and four bronzeleagueplayers, I won all five placementmatches and got placed in platinum. I really think that your placement should reflect on what (league)players you've beaten and not how many placementsmatches you've won.
The opponents you face during placement are all randomly picked from the entire player pool across the leagues. It would just plainly suck to be placed in a lower league just because you got matched with weak players.
It was fixed.
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=25170841321&postId=251682972269&sid=3000#30
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On June 05 2010 15:58 Kvz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 12:10 -orb- wrote:
What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result. Lol, agreed. Marauder : concussive shell lowered to 50/50 Reaper: nitro boost lowered to 50/50 stim cost lowered, marine combat shield cost lowered zerg: overlord speed increased to 100/100 burrow increased to 100/100 research time doubled neural parasite 150/150 i know these are different abilities, but really, what gives? On one hand they state that they want upgrades to be choices that are being made by the player. yet they streamline the terran upgrades to be dirt cheap while at the same time enforcing their philosophy on zerg. lol.
are you saying reaper speed should cost the same as zergling speed?
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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a mass of thors can beat a mass of tanks now... which is really strange... but anyways... tvt is the only matchup that seems to have been changed since now its, reaper aggression into seige tank viking into thor into battlecruisers... or more thors...
also I don't understand the requirements to be put into diamond... Drewbie is in my platinum division at 16-0 and I beat a player who was 13-11 in diamond...
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On June 05 2010 19:57 lolaloc wrote:
The opponents you face during placement are all randomly picked from the entire player pool across the leagues. It would just plainly suck to be placed in a lower league just because you got matched with weak players.
I agree, but I think that it's not supposed to på randomly picked players, but rather first game completely random, and second game based on the first and so on. Let's say that you win first against a bronze-player, then you should play silver or higher in next game, a random person that's not in bronzeleague, a loss will result in a match against someone in same league (in this case bronze) or lower.
That way the placementsmatches say something about how good you are as a player, five completely random matches doesn't say anything at all.
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Have you an idea how inacurrate your Bnet lvl is after 2-3 games?
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On June 05 2010 21:46 tarsier wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 15:58 Kvz wrote:On June 05 2010 12:10 -orb- wrote:
What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result. Lol, agreed. Marauder : concussive shell lowered to 50/50 Reaper: nitro boost lowered to 50/50 stim cost lowered, marine combat shield cost lowered zerg: overlord speed increased to 100/100 burrow increased to 100/100 research time doubled neural parasite 150/150 i know these are different abilities, but really, what gives? On one hand they state that they want upgrades to be choices that are being made by the player. yet they streamline the terran upgrades to be dirt cheap while at the same time enforcing their philosophy on zerg. lol. are you saying reaper speed should cost the same as zergling speed? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
No he is saying that blizzard has gone overboard with upping upgrade costs for zerg.
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On June 05 2010 21:46 tarsier wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 15:58 Kvz wrote:On June 05 2010 12:10 -orb- wrote:
What???
I seriously don't understand why blizzard continues to reduce upgrade costs to 50/50 for terran completely removing choices from the game and making the game less interesting as a result. Lol, agreed. Marauder : concussive shell lowered to 50/50 Reaper: nitro boost lowered to 50/50 stim cost lowered, marine combat shield cost lowered zerg: overlord speed increased to 100/100 burrow increased to 100/100 research time doubled neural parasite 150/150 i know these are different abilities, but really, what gives? On one hand they state that they want upgrades to be choices that are being made by the player. yet they streamline the terran upgrades to be dirt cheap while at the same time enforcing their philosophy on zerg. lol. are you saying reaper speed should cost the same as zergling speed? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I don't think an upgrade should exist that's so minor it should cost 50/50. Concussive Shells is extremely powerful; it shouldn't cost 50/50. Reaper Speed is a small thing, which to me means it should be made more powerful, not that it should cost 50/50. If fast Reapers were as fast as speedlings, or they could bounce over other units, the upgrade might actually warrant 100/100.
Overlord Speed is also fucking pimp, there was never any reason for it to cost 50/50. Warp Gate is extremely strong, and should cost more than 50/50 . (However, the upgrades/tech for Warp Gate units cost a bleeding fortune... those prices could use a drop.)
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Concussive shells used to be a non-upgrade though. I guess they can be raised to 100-100 which just means everyone will ALWAYS get stim first.
I don't want the reaper speed upgrade to be as fast as zerglings, they're already pretty good at harassing. I'd like something that actually increased their viability in the standard army composition. Maybe more damage to non-light or an increase in health. That would be worth a 100-100.
And then to make it more fair, make the upgrade reduce reaper speed so they can't be used as harass after the terran commits.
I feel like the only skill that doesn't seem to have any contention in upgrading is Warpgate. There's absolutely no reason not to get it since it even comes from a building that has no useful upgrades for gate units other than warpgate. People could say hallucination but there's no contest between that and warpgate.
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TvT went from predictable tank/viking into a completely random crapshoot again. TvT should have a "flip a coin" mode.
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I got placed into Diamond after going 6-0. Weird. I'm definitely getting my ass kicked too. I'm now probably 7-6.
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On June 06 2010 06:17 MeruFM wrote:
I feel like the only skill that doesn't seem to have any contention in upgrading is Warpgate. There's absolutely no reason not to get it since it even comes from a building that has no useful upgrades for gate units other than warpgate. People could say hallucination but there's no contest between that and warpgate.
There's no contest if you're getting multiple early gateways, but I'm not convinced that's the only correct choice. In my current opening against Zerg, I rush Phoenix with +1 air weapons, with one stargate pumping Phoenix and one gateway pumping mostly zealots (--> expansion while Zerg is stuck defending Phoenix harass --> speedlots --> templars & upgrades). In my current opening against Protoss, I go 1 gate 1 stargate (Phoenix) 1 robo (Immortals), giving little incentive for early Warpgate (which would be more distracting to macro from, besides). And although it's not my current design, I could certainly see a one gateway one stargate Void Ray --> expand against Terran, which might choose to get +1 air first or simply delay Warpgate to streamline the early game.
Even so, I would bump Warp Gate up to 100/100... the cost is really low for something that accelerates a rush so much.
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On June 06 2010 07:17 HalfAmazing wrote:
TvT went from predictable tank/viking into a completely random crapshoot again. TvT should have a "flip a coin" mode.
People take nerfs WAY too seriously. 10 dmg changes nothing-- NOTHING. In fact, it's a misplaced nerf -- SC2 siege is superior to BW siege mainly due to no-overkill. A little less damage won't do jack, if you see different unit compositions it's because people who don't know much look at the patch notes and immediately think siege is crap now. :p
Siege/vikings is still the most powerfull and flexible unit composition in TvT.
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On June 05 2010 19:57 lolaloc wrote:
The opponents you face during placement are all randomly picked from the entire player pool across the leagues. It would just plainly suck to be placed in a lower league just because you got matched with weak players.
Really? Every time I've gone through the placement matches, I've played against exactly one player from each league, in order from worst to best. I assumed that's how they did it. Start with bronze, if you win, move you up to silver, and so on.
Maybe I'm just lucky.
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On June 06 2010 09:26 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2010 19:57 lolaloc wrote:
The opponents you face during placement are all randomly picked from the entire player pool across the leagues. It would just plainly suck to be placed in a lower league just because you got matched with weak players.
Really? Every time I've gone through the placement matches, I've played against exactly one player from each league, in order from worst to best. I assumed that's how they did it. Start with bronze, if you win, move you up to silver, and so on. Maybe I'm just lucky.
You're definitely just lucky. I got placed against a couple of diamond players, lost to a disconnect and then got plopped into silver.
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blink stalkers kill tanks now :D
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On June 06 2010 11:44 TheElitists wrote:
blink stalkers kill tanks now :D
they did so before, too
but ye... reaching that critical mass has gotten even more expensive, gas-wise. ravens for PDDs plus marauders just gets the job done sooo much better. but that, too, is no change to before -.-
(yes, i could still do with a marauder nerf and yes, tank needs better HP/armor instead)
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There is about 4 threads whining about Mech at all times.
Do you tell those people to stop baiting and contribute?
no because they are collaborating and contributing ideas of how to beat mech. except for the terran players in those forums who talk like you. you fucking moron.
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Placements seem pretty buggy or arbitrary. Went 5-0 through all placement matches in 4v4 steamrolling opponents... and got placed into silver. lols, wtf?
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As a terran player, the only thing who bother me with the tanks nerf is now marauder will come back more usefull in TvP so i expect to see mass marauder comming back then people will start to conplain again the tanks who are useless ( i can't say if it will be useless i don't get the chance to try it yet, this is just what i expect ppl will say like when the roach nerf) and protoss will whine about marauder is too good
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I'm sorry if this has been posted already (either with this patch or previous ones) but it's something I think wasn't there with the earlier patches of the game.
In the Menu > Hotkeys > Profiles there are now 5 profiles altogether
- Standard
- Standard for lefties
- Grid
- Grid for lefties
- Classic
(with Grid being the new one)
Sorry if it's old but I believe players who want to improve their keyboard setup during the downtime might benefit from that.
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EPT
