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On July 21 2010 02:55 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 02:46 brandonc wrote:
Here is a question/discussion starter!
Everyone is saying, HT oom = archon, or why would u morph HTs into archons before the battle because you could storm and morph instantly, why take away the potential (even though u may be emped) to do great AE damage.
But in sc2, DTs morph into archons (not news to anyone) but no one has discussed how that could be useful? DTs into base kill few scvs morph? or sneak into back and morph? its like an insta archon somewhere random. This also means you do not have to build a Templar archives (since dts, unlike in bw, come out a diff building) Yes the argument is if you want an archon you would build a HT because its cheaper as opposed to spending more to get the same unit.
but just saying, anyone thought of this? Eh, when it comes to Archons from DT's it really is hard to find a use that is efficient or as efficient. If you are going to use the Archon to harass, why not just use the Dark Templar? DT's do 50damage a swing, are invisible, are smaller, are as fast/almost as an Archon, they just can't hit air. DT's will force detection, scans, and unit relocation. The only use I can see morphing 2 DT to a Archon is if you have too many DT's, or extra/non active DT's and needed more tanks/AA. Also, I can see DT's being used to make Archons if your opponent has mobile detection and you don't want your DT's in your army to be owned immediately, but that seems like a preference. In all though, I think nobody makes Archons from DT's because going DT is pretty specific, and you want the DT's, not an Archon, the HT seem way more suited to be morphed to an Archon, as they have a state in which they are useless, plus HT's are slow as shit.
I think you missed his point; basically when you dt rush frequently when that's done you'll have some dt's left over which will be pretty useless for a good while after that. His idea is instead of letting them sit around, morphing them into archons and adding them to your main army
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The best situation I have seen for archons is vs. Mutas + lings. Archons are the perfect counter as they do splash and tons of damage vs bio.
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Yeah, I don't get why people are bringing up all sorts of Terran counters in this thread. Marauder/EMP counters them but it's not like Archons were used in PvT in BW anyway.
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If the archon continues to be bad after release, I think a viable buff would be to have it take the brunt of an EMP and stop it. Units directly behind the archon (relative to the EMP) wouldn't be hit by the EMP. This'd make it a lot more tanklike and it'd make sense to have a few in front of your casters and in your army to weaken EMPs.
Then again, I know nothing about balance so this would probably make roaches violently overpowered.
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Archons are great at hitting mineral lines, great at fighting zerg air, and are decent meat shields in most encounters (minus the non-feedback'ed ghosts).
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On June 02 2010 05:44 TheAngelofDeath wrote:So, after running numerous tests on the unit tester with the Archon. It pretty much dismantles anything in large quantities. The exception being the carrier, and broodlords. The topic is short, but I haven't seen a dedicated topic about the Archon so....why all the hatred towards this unit? What is it that makes the Archon so terrible?? I've used it in real game and it holds up just fine, so why is it that it's never used much at all? Thanks. 
In experience, it legitimately doesn't do well.
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Archon drops into mineral lines are amazing imo
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maybe range 3, massive and a speed boost could help?
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On July 21 2010 04:50 Belegorm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 02:55 v3chr0 wrote:On July 21 2010 02:46 brandonc wrote:
Here is a question/discussion starter!
Everyone is saying, HT oom = archon, or why would u morph HTs into archons before the battle because you could storm and morph instantly, why take away the potential (even though u may be emped) to do great AE damage.
But in sc2, DTs morph into archons (not news to anyone) but no one has discussed how that could be useful? DTs into base kill few scvs morph? or sneak into back and morph? its like an insta archon somewhere random. This also means you do not have to build a Templar archives (since dts, unlike in bw, come out a diff building) Yes the argument is if you want an archon you would build a HT because its cheaper as opposed to spending more to get the same unit.
but just saying, anyone thought of this? Eh, when it comes to Archons from DT's it really is hard to find a use that is efficient or as efficient. If you are going to use the Archon to harass, why not just use the Dark Templar? DT's do 50damage a swing, are invisible, are smaller, are as fast/almost as an Archon, they just can't hit air. DT's will force detection, scans, and unit relocation. The only use I can see morphing 2 DT to a Archon is if you have too many DT's, or extra/non active DT's and needed more tanks/AA. Also, I can see DT's being used to make Archons if your opponent has mobile detection and you don't want your DT's in your army to be owned immediately, but that seems like a preference. In all though, I think nobody makes Archons from DT's because going DT is pretty specific, and you want the DT's, not an Archon, the HT seem way more suited to be morphed to an Archon, as they have a state in which they are useless, plus HT's are slow as shit. I think you missed his point; basically when you dt rush frequently when that's done you'll have some dt's left over which will be pretty useless for a good while after that. His idea is instead of letting them sit around, morphing them into archons and adding them to your main army
But unless if you need them in your army for tanking or AA, you're better on running the dts in your army instead. Their DPS will be much higher, and the enemy will still be forced to use scans everywhere you go. Yes, they can be sniped inside your army, but even if thats the case, thats time and micro your opponent is spending while you can take out his priority targets (or micro DTs to the back of your army and then bring them back right after). The same goes for vZ, with forcing Overseers (and sniping them to keep the zerg on his toes), though vZ they at least do decent damage with their bonus vs bio.
For their cost and dps, 2 DTs (250/250) aren't worth morphing to an archon most of the time (except for AA in emergencies or needing more tanks to beef up your army). 2 HTs (100/300) are more so, but even then its only once they've served their primary function (Feedback/Storm) and you want to get more of them right then and there, though vZ depending on army composition, HT -> archon off the bat makes sense sometimes. This isn't to say that you should never merge DTs, but just that its pretty situational.
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On July 21 2010 04:52 andrewlt wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people are bringing up all sorts of Terran counters in this thread. Marauder/EMP counters them but it's not like Archons were used in PvT in BW anyway.
I think its general frustration with the current state of Protoss vs Terran.
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On July 21 2010 07:02 Grond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 04:52 andrewlt wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people are bringing up all sorts of Terran counters in this thread. Marauder/EMP counters them but it's not like Archons were used in PvT in BW anyway. I think its general frustration with the current state of Protoss vs Terran.
+1. Feed back is not as advertised (a spell which allows there to be spell tension between HT's and ghost).
On another note, I think a double archon drop would be killer on the mineral line, ESPECIALLY in the late game, where archons with the +3 upgrade 1shot scvs unless they have maxed armor. I have yet to see this in actual play, but on paper, it's looking pretty sweet.
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since archons can move while being morphed, what if morphing archons are microed to the back to block escape, sandwich, whatnot and when they finish morphing, there will be additional surface area utilized on the ball of enemy units.
Kinda hard to pull off though, cz normally templars aren't alone in the back as the other bun of the sandwich, nor is the archon movespeed very good for it. what if archon move speed was improved to go along with it?
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On July 21 2010 07:38 Chronopolis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:02 Grond wrote:On July 21 2010 04:52 andrewlt wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people are bringing up all sorts of Terran counters in this thread. Marauder/EMP counters them but it's not like Archons were used in PvT in BW anyway. I think its general frustration with the current state of Protoss vs Terran. +1. Feed back is not as advertised (a spell which allows there to be spell tension between HT's and ghost). On another note, I think a double archon drop would be killer on the mineral line, ESPECIALLY in the late game, where archons with the +3 upgrade 1shot scvs unless they have maxed armor. I have yet to see this in actual play, but on paper, it's looking pretty sweet.
Double archon drop (i.e. 4 HT's or 4 DT's worth of units) won't do much, at least outside copper leagues, since players will pull scvs within seconds and then demolish your 2 large target units. There's a reason why storm drops are king (which only need 1-2 HTs btw), since your storms can destroy most of the scvs before the player has much of a chance to react, not to mention the fact that you will storm on their 'exit' path, so there's really no getaway. 2 Archons (200/600 from 4 HTs, or 500/500 from 4 DTs) are a HUGE investment, and will not be worth the handful of scvs you will kill, not even on paper. Hell, you're better off with a simple DT drop and hope the player doesn't notice or scan in time.
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On June 02 2010 05:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Archons would be a lot better if depleted gases still gave 1-2 gas instead of 0, like in SC1.
I still don't understand why blizzard changed this part of the game... I believe it adds to the game by creating an interesting late late game dynamic where all of a sudden minerals are worth more than gas.
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I've continuously seen people say Archons are slow, they are one of the fastest, largest collision radius units in SC2. They move slow cause you're probably dragging them with your army.
Zealot:
Movement Speed: 2.25w/o--2.75with charge
Archon
Movement Speed 2.8125
Reaper/Zergling
Movement Speed 2.9531w/o
Archons are quite fast for such a big unit.
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On July 21 2010 07:44 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2010 07:38 Chronopolis wrote:On July 21 2010 07:02 Grond wrote:On July 21 2010 04:52 andrewlt wrote:
Yeah, I don't get why people are bringing up all sorts of Terran counters in this thread. Marauder/EMP counters them but it's not like Archons were used in PvT in BW anyway. I think its general frustration with the current state of Protoss vs Terran. +1. Feed back is not as advertised (a spell which allows there to be spell tension between HT's and ghost). On another note, I think a double archon drop would be killer on the mineral line, ESPECIALLY in the late game, where archons with the +3 upgrade 1shot scvs unless they have maxed armor. I have yet to see this in actual play, but on paper, it's looking pretty sweet. Double archon drop (i.e. 4 HT's or 4 DT's worth of units) won't do much, at least outside copper leagues, since players will pull scvs within seconds and then demolish your 2 large target units. There's a reason why storm drops are king (which only need 1-2 HTs btw), since your storms can destroy most of the scvs before the player has much of a chance to react, not to mention the fact that you will storm on their 'exit' path, so there's really no getaway. 2 Archons (200/600 from 4 HTs, or 500/500 from 4 DTs) are a HUGE investment, and will not be worth the handful of scvs you will kill, not even on paper.
Storm drops don't exactly kill that many workers cause the splash radius is quite small. Storming on the exact path is rather dangerous because it usually puts you dead in the middle of thier base, hard to retreat. Also storms are rather valuable, where as archons are not so much (in a battle situation). It's similiar to an immortal drop. You are basically abusing the 2-6 seconds before the player can react and start sending units, I don't see how you could get around 4-8 worker kills in that time spawn. The most important thing is that the archon drop is repeatable, you threaten to come back any time, not just when you have gas/energy on your templars.
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King of the Beta, Huk vs. TLO, game 2: archons not all that strong against tanks and battlecruisers =/
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On July 21 2010 07:59 palanq wrote:
King of the Beta, Huk vs. TLO, game 2: archons not all that strong against tanks and battlecruisers =/
thats not a surprise at all since neither of those are biological... so i dont understand why you brought this up, unless you wanted to show that archons have a counter just like all units...
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im saddened by how archons have turned out in sc2 as of right now. They could still change but right now they just suck. Theres no real reason to go archons except to do something with ur depleted templars. I find that offensive as a protoss fan, that one of the strongest units in the protoss arsenal(lorewise) is a unit you would never get directly. I really hope this changes, I saw a video of the SC2 campaign mission, where archons are approaching and the terran are all like "Wow, those are protoss archons!" acting like theyre so powerful(as they should be).
Now, i understand its a competitive game and doesnt need to follow lore, but there really should be a way to incorporate it into the game as a unit that is good vs something rather than just an extra meatshield.
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to those who argue about feedbacking ghost I would like to see videos of you consistently picking out all the ghosts in a mmm ball and feedbacking them to deny emps
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EPT
