EPTPatch 13 Discussion - Page 77
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Trogdor
United States158 Posts
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
Not sure why toss are crying so much, I mean Void were way to strong as they were, on several occasions i would scout them and still lose, that force field nerf really only applys to ultras, so its more of a zerg buff late game than a toss nerf... seems like a pretty reasonable patch to me. Besides, 1 range isnt THAT much. Its not like they killed its damage or hp, that said it will be interesting to see if Frenzy can be balanced, my thoughts are that they will simply remove when zerg use a single ultra to smash through all of toss force fields and then just overwhelm them with unit count. | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
We still believe that the terrans are spending too much on infrastructure who was it that joked that because 1% of terran players were going mech they would buff infantry? Im sorry, Ive forgotten your name. But you are a genius, sir. | ||
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taruts
New Zealand41 Posts
UDP is enabled to help improve game performance. Numerous performance and stability improvements. Living in New Zealand, and getting constant disconnects/game crashes, this is a very welcome change! Thank you Blizzard. Force Fields can now be destroyed by Massive ground units walking over them. This is IMO a welcome change. Force Fields ("FFs") were a fundamentally game changing mechanic in that it altered the physical terrain absolutely. It rendered many ground armies completely ineffective. With this change, making FFs destroyable, will make mid-end game that much more interesting and dynamic. Now FFs are not so absolute and now there a ways to counter! =) Void Ray: Range decreased from 7 to 6. As a terran player this was exactly what I was hoping for and I think Blizzard identified and balanced the issue correctly. Void Ray ("VR) early harass against a terran was simply too oppressive early-mid game. It essentially required the terran to get vikings en masse if there were more than 3 VRs. This not only made the terran unable to move out of their base and pressure the protoss effectively, it diverted significant amounts of resources to produce units that were often of little use later. On particular maps it was especially devastating when turrets and bunkers/marines were ineffective against them due to the excessive range. Marine: Stimpack research cost decreased from 150/150 to 100/100. Combat Shield research cost decreased from 150/150 to 100/100. This is an extremely interesting change. Decreasing research costs does not boost the effectiveness of these units in any material way. If one was going for a MMM army, they were going to get these upgrades anyway. The only thing this change has done is made it easier/earlier to get. Facilitating upgrades does not, I think, increase the strength of the MMM army composition but actually opens up the terran's options to go mech. Mech units were difficult to get for terran due to high gas cost. I think Blizzard is trying to rectify this by lowering resource cost early-mid game to allow terran to diversify their army and place less reliance on MMM. Infestor: Frenzy spell added: Costs 25 energy. A completely new ability for zerg. This is essentially bloodlust from WC3 ported to SC2. BNET is down so I cannot test atm, but I am expecting it to be autocastable? Its relatively low cost suggests it is not envisaged for ultralisk-only use as some people claim. I think this is a very useful spell in that it amplifies the effectiveness of a zerg army as a whole and makes them more useful mid-late game against teched up terran and protoss. This pushes up the ceiling of effectiveness for all zerg units. Overseer: Infested Terran spell added: Costs 125 energy Some people are claiming zerg will begin spamming overseers to exploit the infested terran mechanism due to no food cost. But at such a high energy cost, I doubt if it is worth spending resources to make a substantial number of them. I think adding this ability for overseers is a very good thing. It spices up the gameplay a lot by introducing a new harass option for zerg. Overseer: Contaminate spell added: Costs 75 energy. The contaminate spell is also huge when used strategically. It can lead to some tense gameplay (i.e. engaged in battle, lost a bunch of units, and a couple of overseers contaminates your buildings so slows your army replenishment rate!? Cool!) The fact that some people may now put a turret/cannon or two to counter overseer contamination risk makes the game that much more dynamic!! Overall, adding these new abilities to the overseer introduces a new set of harass options for the zerg which is most welcome. It is not fundamentally game changing but makes things a lot more interesting! Ultralisk: Life decreased from 600 to 450. Damage changed from 25 to 15 (+25 Armored). Damage versus structures increased from 60 to 75. I think people might be missing a crucial point here about the ultralisk change. Its damage is increased immensely but its survivability has been decreased. This means that as long as you can get your ultralisks to your enemies' ground armies, they are going to obliterate them. The question thus becomes, how do you get your ultralisks to their armies? Burrow? Accompanying lings/roaches to soak up damage? Mix up the unit composition and throw in a few mutas/broodlords? By amping up the ultralisk damage, zerg now has a very potent and powerful ground army demolisher. The ultra has become less tanky, but way more devastating! Zerg players should be excited to test out the new ultra's potential! Phew. A bit long. Great patch!  | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 22 2010 08:21 Spidermonkey wrote: Shouldn't a true BGH map have gold at every base? That'll be the Massive Game Hunters (MGH) map | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
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Tsagacity
United States2124 Posts
On May 22 2010 08:53 taruts wrote:Ultralisk: Life decreased from 600 to 450. Damage changed from 25 to 15 (+25 Armored). Damage versus structures increased from 60 to 75. I don't think anyone missed much with the ultralisk change. The problems with the ultralisk have always been that they melt in the face of marauder lines or stalker/immortal lines, and that brood lords are more effective. Ultralisks did a ton of damage before the patch, but rarely got into a position to do any damage. Reducing health doesn't really help.I think people might be missing a crucial point here about the ultralisk change. Its damage is increased immensely but its survivability has been decreased. This means that as long as you can get your ultralisks to your enemies' ground armies, they are going to obliterate them. The question thus becomes, how do you get your ultralisks to their armies? Burrow? Accompanying lings/roaches to soak up damage? Mix up the unit composition and throw in a few mutas/broodlords? By amping up the ultralisk damage, zerg now has a very potent and powerful ground army demolisher. The ultra has become less tanky, but way more devastating! Zerg player should be excited to test out the new ultra's potential! Phew. A bit long. Great patch! By the time you have ultralisks, your opponent should have detectors so burrow shouldn't solve the problem. Using ling/roach to soak creates other problems because of the size and pathing of the ultralisk, plus a good player will just focus the ultralisk anyway. It seems like your best bet for getting ultralisks into an attacking position would be to overlord drop and hope they dont have much anti-air. | ||
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h4xh4xh4x
Canada90 Posts
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palefountains
China24 Posts
On May 22 2010 07:45 Curiosity wrote: I still feel that the most fair nerf on the Void Rays is to force them to recharge when they switch to a new target. To my understanding, which may be incorrect (and if it is so, then please excuse me), the purpose of the Void Ray is to destroy capital ships and massive units. However, because Void Rays don't necessarily have to recharge with every new target, they can easily burn through tons and tons of marines or any other small/medium unit. Though I'm not that satisfied with this nerf, I'm glad Blizzard is addressing the Void Ray issue. As for the stim pack and shields, I find it very helpful for Terrans to prevent the immortal timing push that comes when the Terran grabs his first expo. However, this could be detrimental to the Protoss game because with shields and stim, I highly doubt the Protoss will be able to break the Terran with the same timing push, which I believe is a valid strategy. totally agree. I would say Void Rays should recharge after a certain amount of time. So terran could wait for the chance to throw in forces. And you are also absolutely right with the timing problem of protoss immortal rush against terran. Terran can even fly his second base in the worst case. | ||
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taruts
New Zealand41 Posts
On May 22 2010 09:02 Tsagacity wrote: I don't think anyone missed much with the ultralisk change. The problems with the ultralisk have always been that they melt in the face of marauder lines or stalker/immortal lines, and that brood lords are more effective. Ultralisks did a ton of damage before the patch, but rarely got into a position to do any damage. Reducing health doesn't really help. By the time you have ultralisks, your opponent should have detectors so burrow shouldn't solve the problem. Using ling/roach to soak creates other problems because of the size and pathing of the ultralisk, plus a good player will just focus the ultralisk anyway. It seems like your best bet for getting ultralisks into an attacking position would be to overlord drop and hope they dont have much anti-air. Good points Tsagacity. My point, generally, is that since now ultra damage has been increased so much, incentives to use them in interesting ways has also been increased. For example, previously, the damage from ultras did not justify micro/macro to drop ultras into terran tank lines, etc. Now with the damage increase, this strategy has just become a lot more viable and effective. With the upped damage, there is a lot more incentive to get them up to the front lines (or behind/flank/drop?). Blizzard has given zerg a fantastic splash ground damage weapon. It is up to the zerg player to come up with ways to use them effectively (like the one way you suggested). This was less viable prior to this patch; it promotes more exciting gameplay! =) | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
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baeracaed
United States604 Posts
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SleepSheep
Canada344 Posts
On May 22 2010 09:12 palefountains wrote: totally agree. I would say Void Rays should recharge after a certain amount of time. So terran could wait for the chance to throw in forces. And you are also absolutely right with the timing problem of protoss immortal rush against terran. Terran can even fly his second base in the worst case. the void ray charge issue is fine. a little known fact about the void ray is that each time it switches targets the current charge level it's on resets back to the start of its current charge level. this is hugely limited when compared w/ the idea that it continues to charge even when switching its target. units with low hp for instance will die quickly and it'll be incredibly hard for the void ray to get to its max charge level. | ||
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sacrificetheory
United States98 Posts
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On May 22 2010 09:02 Redmark wrote: Are 77 pages of theorycraft really necessary? No one has even played a game under this patch; start the QQing after you play 10 games and find that ultras still suck, not before. This is what happens when a big patch is released and it takes forever for the servers to get back up. Obviously you dont remember the last MSL finals. So many posts in 5 minutes TL broke. Controversy= discussion and posts. | ||
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Leeoku
1617 Posts
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SixSongs
Poland1455 Posts
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Qwerty.
United States292 Posts
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SpicyCrab
402 Posts
I know it has been said but at least wait to try out the changes before you complain. Nobody can construct an accurate picture of how the new zerg is going to play out;the metagame has had NO (literally) chance to develop in reaction to these changes. None of us have played this at ALL. I feel bad for toss because you guys don't get any thing new / fun to try out though. | ||
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Magic1264
United States60 Posts
On May 22 2010 08:53 taruts wrote: Void Ray: Range decreased from 7 to 6. As a terran player this was exactly what I was hoping for and I think Blizzard identified and balanced the issue correctly. Void Ray ("VR) early harass against a terran was simply too oppressive early-mid game. It essentially required the terran to get vikings en masse if there were more than 3 VRs. This not only made the terran unable to move out of their base and pressure the protoss effectively, it diverted significant amounts of resources to produce units that were often of little use later. On particular maps it was especially devastating when turrets and bunkers/marines were ineffective against them due to the excessive range. Ugh, as opposed to the 12 million ways a Terran player is allowed to open up for early-mid game harass? Seriously, when a Protoss player is forced to open 15 cyber into stalker every game against Terran because of reapers; tech to robo to fend off stupid banshee harass, only to get stomped because Terran decided to opt for some marauder or mech. Lets not forget the numerous types of drops that are allowed because of the effectiveness, utility, and overall versatility that is the medivac. The VR opener was severely weak way to open as Protoss. You leave yourself open to a couple other forms of harassment, or just getting rolled over by a nice timing push. Protoss simply don't have the unit versatility or scouting power in the early game to open with 2x VR and a handful of stalkers in the Terran match up, allowing the Terran to open however they f-ing please. That being said, the VR "nerf" shouldn't be terribly huge. I can see why they did it, but at the same time it feels, on the whole, very unjustified. They are already slow as molasses, so it might be interesting to see if one can kite now using vikings. The people who used to lose to VR cheese, or the more "solid" VR harass opener, will still lose to these builds, as the blame for losing wasn't on the ineffectiveness of the base defenses, but actually the player's inability or lack of knowledge to deal with this kind of opener. All these dumb buffs to the Terran make me wonder why the hell I ever hit that Protoss button in the first place = ( | ||
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