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[Q] Build Worker or Split? - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Nutshell
Profile Joined March 2010
United States41 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-17 19:40:52
May 17 2010 19:40 GMT
#61
baconbits
Profile Joined April 2010
United States419 Posts
May 17 2010 20:15 GMT
#62
for zerg you get your 13th drone slightly faster when you queue first, since if you send workers mining first, that small time not queuing right away could be counting down your larva timer (doesn't start until you're under 3 larva). 13th is when you notice it provided you 9overlord.
Uriel_SVK
Profile Joined April 2010
Slovakia427 Posts
May 17 2010 20:24 GMT
#63
OMG I have been doing it wrong all the time Think thats the only reason Im not in platinum
ManiacTheZealot
Profile Joined December 2009
United States490 Posts
May 17 2010 20:27 GMT
#64
I definitely always go for the miss click and send my drones behind the minerals. It's the most efficient way to start. Then I try to split and do it again. And then I remember I didn't build a worker and that my overlord is still sitting over my base. After that my drone pops out and it sits there because I was to busy to set my rally points. And shortly after that a 6 pool comes into my base and kills me. That's how I achieve max efficiency .
nodq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany123 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-17 20:32:32
May 17 2010 20:32 GMT
#65
On May 17 2010 13:17 Synwave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 17 2010 13:13 derpaderp wrote:
you're talking about .05 of a second here, and you can get 50 minerals before your scv finishes, so honestly, splitting well only puts you ahead by a tiny fraction of a second.

someone should make a joke about splitting hairs.

its up to preference and it doesn't matter.


What if Day[9] casts you in a replay and omg you will look like a noob and be made fun of forever!

>.>

But yeah, its such a tiny tiny detail.
I try to do my best with the ole send workers, build, split workers before they mine thing because its a pretend mental mini-game I play but I don't stress it.



tiny detail, right. But now, take some time and count AAAALLLLLLLLL the tiny details together and what do you get then? RIght... a big f*cking Ball of little tiny Details which will become a gigantic Detail Ball at the End of a Game. Thats the Point, if you start lazy in such a Game like SC(2) then you will do lazy shit later in the Game too. Its all about the DIscipline for the Match and the Game. So dont hate
Spawn moooaaaar Overloooaaaarddzzzz!
KnockOut
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany22 Posts
July 03 2010 21:57 GMT
#66
id say, you build your worker first!
Because, your mouse is automatically already over your mainbuilding. Just make a fast click, press the hotkey and split your worker. Goes faster then selecting all the workers and then hover your mouse over the mineralfields, and go all the way back to the building again.
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
July 03 2010 22:14 GMT
#67
I build my worker first, but that said:
If you had to choose one, with lets say a more significant delay (still not significant though) like 1 second, mining the workers is much more important. Why? A worker is completely useless to you if it's not mining, as if it didn't exist. While it does take longer to order them to mine (especially to split), there are 6 of them, compared to only 1 worker to build.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
Mesha
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
July 03 2010 22:57 GMT
#68
I have read somewhere that you can hold hotkey for worker while loading a game, and then just click your building while holding that hotkey. You will queue your worker as fast as possible and then move on your splitting. Just a thought if nobody mention this.
Reality hits you hard bro.
SageFantasma
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States383 Posts
July 03 2010 23:10 GMT
#69
Honestly, unless you have extremely slow hands, building the worker first is fastest. Build SCV/Probe/Drone, 3/3 split, and set waypoint for workers! In all reality, it's not a gamebreaker, but it could be embarrassing if you fuck up the split and you get way behind.
hizBALLIN
Profile Joined June 2010
United States163 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-03 23:18:07
July 03 2010 23:15 GMT
#70
As a zerg player, this is what I do;

1)Click Hatch, s+d
2)Attempt a 3/3 split, I usually do it perfectly. About 10% of the time I accidently do a 5/1 split, it's always one or the other, oddly enough.
3) Send Overlord to relevant location
4) Set the rally point for my hatch to the central mineral patch
5) Set the rallypoint for the cocoon to an empty mineral patch
6) "HF GL"
7) Build next drone as soon as possible, individually rallying it to the appropriate patch
8) Spam stuff to pump up my APM so my opponent feels ok about losing when he watches the replay.

=D
That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcomes; the anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace.
Tomed
Profile Joined August 2005
United States176 Posts
July 03 2010 23:15 GMT
#71
build worker then send all workers to one patch it's already been proven that splitting doesn't give you any advantage in SC2
purerythem
Profile Joined June 2009
United States245 Posts
July 03 2010 23:29 GMT
#72
this has already been tested and the numbers crunched. Although further testing could be done, it seems pretty obvious there is no real advantage as the AI has been vastly improved.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=130273

He did 5 different tests, each multiple times. You can check the link to see the results and numbers / time. Below are the 5 different ways he did them. They all come out very even, and unless you can do certain ones 100% 100% of the time, its not worth it.

Test 1: New drone first or moving all drones to mineral line first

Test 2: Efficiency of mineral micro

Test 3: 9 OL build or 10 OL build

Test 4: Extractor trick before overlord (11 OL)

Test 5: Extractor trick after OL (10 OL)

It seems like the AI is intelligent enough without our efforts to help it out Extractor trick doesn't seem viable in any situation which is quite interesting IMO. In addition, the more micro you do the more likely you are to screw something up. For example, it took me like 5 tries to get 10 OL - extractor trick to get 3 perfect shots at it ( the numbers posted here), since it is so much more complex than just hitting "1sd" over and over.
sjschmidt93
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2518 Posts
July 03 2010 23:33 GMT
#73
Unless you're a pro I don't think it really matters. Sure, if you're Jaedong that tenth of a second is pretty important, but if your... you... it doesn't really make a difference because normal human beings are gonna fall behind at some point anyway.
My grandpa could've proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, he's also dead. -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
getSome[703]
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States753 Posts
July 03 2010 23:39 GMT
#74
I scanned through the thread and didn't see this piece of advice so I'll offer it:

Holding down the worker key during the loading screen (e for protoss, etc) and then immediately clicking on the command building when the game starts immediately queues a worker (I believe you must click on the hatchery and then s for zerg). Just a little faster, and makes the build then send worker option a bit more advantageous (although like others have said, will hardly effect the game). I believe the 6/3 split is the most advantageous, although 6/2/2 is probably better if you can pull it off
Running Log! http://www.runningahead.com/logs/5081b4d7a4a94c5e8fa20b01e668dfb6/calendar
skeldark
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2223 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-03 23:45:54
July 03 2010 23:44 GMT
#75
i love this threads. i really love them.
all test show there is no advantage. and than the people discuss and discuss until next test and this one show: there is no advantage.
Not a little one, NO one. its a risk you could mismirco.
i think the problem ist the people WANT to do something at start of the game.

So the best trick is:
sit back and make you ready for the real game. its starts after 1 min.

even if your pro one day and day9 makes jokes of you because you move worker first and dont micro on minaral line and dont sent worker on empty minarels.
who cares if you win the game ^^

Save gaming: kill esport
SantaClaws
Profile Joined July 2010
Denmark11 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-03 23:55:17
July 03 2010 23:47 GMT
#76
Hi, this is my first post on tl

-I play random on low-end diamond, but when I play terran and protoss I find it to be most efficient to split before worker. Because by watching replays by myself even though my worker is a split second later than my opponents, my first supply structure (pylon or depot) is slightly faster than his/hers. And the first supply structure is always the one supply capping you.
-Therefore splitting first to get your supply structure is the best long-term option imo. Even though it's only a slight difference and doesn't really matter. Ofcourse I do the "send all 6 to one patch, query one worker, split the workers in half before they reach the patch"-split.
-Now for zerg it's another matter, because you can build more than one worker at a time.

-Edit , I actually did some ressearch which I forgot to say. I played with the slowest speed, and it turned out that doing it my way I would have up to 10 minerals more after 90 seconds of playtime (not real time) which is a few seconds after I place my first barrack as terran. -this ofcourse might aswell be because of me being used to that order and didn't execute the others just as well, but I genuinely tried. Ánd 10 minerals difference seem verry plausible imo. But it just comes to show you, that it really REALLY doesn't matter at all tbh. (I did use some other tricks such as microing the workers and force 2 scv's on all the mineral patches that were closest- the result, only 10 minerals difference)

-Santa
Ichabod
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1659 Posts
July 03 2010 23:55 GMT
#77
On July 04 2010 06:57 KnockOut wrote:
id say, you build your worker first!
Because, your mouse is automatically already over your mainbuilding. Just make a fast click, press the hotkey and split your worker. Goes faster then selecting all the workers and then hover your mouse over the mineralfields, and go all the way back to the building again.


Pls have a good reason for bumping an old thread; kthx.
iEchoic
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1776 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-04 00:00:23
July 03 2010 23:57 GMT
#78
You should send your workers first before constructing a worker. You can go over the math for it, it's pretty simple.

Just consider that .5 seconds of idle time on your workers waiting to mine while creating an SCV is losing .5 seconds of mining on six workers. Missing .5 seconds of idle time on your CC while sending your workers is losing .5 seconds of mining time on one worker.

The human intuition is to create your worker first so that your build can begin as soon as possible. This is less than optimal, though.

I remember the AoEII community (which was a lot more math-oriented because of the huge focus on econ that game had) went over this argument, and it was found that gathering ASAP is more important than creating a worker first for the reason above. I don't know why the SCII community seems to have come to a different conclusion.
vileEchoic -- clanvile.com
SichuanPanda
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Canada1542 Posts
July 04 2010 00:06 GMT
#79
I'd say worker first, you want to start worker production as soon as possible, granted a split should take less than a second if you are fast / practiced splitting, however that 1 second means 1 second you are behind someone who built worker first. And as we all know in SC, 1 second timing here and there can add up to a lot later in the game.
i-bonjwa
purerythem
Profile Joined June 2009
United States245 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-04 00:43:12
July 04 2010 00:42 GMT
#80
I'm not trying to start any flames, but did anyone actually read the previous post I linked? The math shows out of just about every combination, there is no advantage in 3/3, 2/2/2 or 6 to 1 mineral patch. The disadvantage of doing 3/3 or 2/2/2 is that if you misclick at all, you will be behind. Most do the 3/3 or 2/2/2 out of habit and it just a way of how they start the game.
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