Dark Templar function just fine the way they are. The only change I would appreciate is scrap the Dark Shrine and have Templar Archives function the way it did in Brood War. It costs way too much gas to get High Templar as it is, you may as well get the added bonus of having Dark Templar tech. I believe the Dark Shrine was added because of how powerful both the Dark Templar and High Templar are immediately upon warp in (HT's can feedback both Terran and Zerg detectors for an instant kill).

Atreides-

United States103 Posts

May 11 2010 21:32 GMT

#22

Rushing for DTs feels much weaker than in BroodWar, not that it's a bad thing...

But in the mid / late game, DTs are as strong as ever. Detection is much harder to come by for Terran and Zerg, so using them for map control and harass is very effective. And the warp-in feature makes DTs so much more deadly, you can use a proxy Pylon or a Warp Prism to make harassment even stronger. I don't think that DTs are weak at all.

I think it's OK for Templar tech to be split into two buildings, simply because DTs are stronger than they used to be. Though it would be nice to have the Dark Shrine have some sort of upgrade.

drlame

Sweden574 Posts

May 11 2010 21:36 GMT

#23

On May 12 2010 05:27 Newguy wrote:
DTs really take 0 seconds to build though, because you will have warp gates by then, so the 55 seconds is insignificant.

But the CD on the warpgate becomes longer, so its not insignificant.

Anyway,
I recently watched Artosis' interview of Tester and I really liked his idea of "fixing" DTs: Make them an upgrade at the templar archives. I can however see why blizzard chose to make the DT building separate, or at least imo, because if not scouted correctly it can easily end the game. So by making it an upgrade at the templar archives it would be really difficult to scout whether the protoss is going for storm or DTs. If this really is such a huge problem though I guess they could make some aesthetic change to the archives post upgrade.

Vei

United States2845 Posts

May 11 2010 21:37 GMT

#24

Honestly I think DT's are a great harass/contain unit. The build time might be a little too long, but I think it can still be used very well as it is.

Zeke50100

United States2220 Posts

May 11 2010 21:39 GMT

#25

On May 12 2010 06:36 drlame wrote:

Show nested quote +

ReGating means it really is insignificant (i.e. Warping a DT, switching to Gateway during the warp, producing something the "normal" way, then just switching back to Warp Gate with only a couple seconds of "lost" time, but also with an additional unit in that same amount of time)

Talic_Zealot

688 Posts

May 11 2010 21:40 GMT

#26

I disagree about the vs T statement. If you spread 3 dark templar you can inflict 1000 minerals of damage and that's without touching any unit with them. The same way that burrowed roaches are dangerous for two reasons, DT's can severely screw one's economy big time. I also like to warp-in them in the back of t's base if i have done immortal shuttle harass before that. Has anyone tried using archons since the last patch?? Their splash radius and the way it works have undergone some good changes, I'm curious cause I'm currently on a break from P.

Kantutan

Canada1319 Posts

May 11 2010 21:42 GMT

#27

Yeah DTs are perfectly fine as is. Of course they're not a unit everyone uses every single game, they have a specific purpose and fill a nice niche. Killing a few workers and forcing your opponent to put up detection all around their base is already making it cost effective. Watch Inka and his DTs and you won't say they need tweaking :p

Deleted User 55994

949 Posts

May 11 2010 21:44 GMT

#28

how can you say DT's are 100% always an allin unit? That's just flat out wrong.

Saracen

United States5139 Posts

May 11 2010 21:48 GMT

#29

The DT tech tree reminds me of the Battlecruiser tech tree except they don't get any upgrades from their tech building.

Eukarya

United States29 Posts

May 11 2010 21:55 GMT

#30

On May 12 2010 06:14 MasterFwiffo wrote:
Frankly, we could fix this by bringing back Dark and TWilight Archons and putting DA abilities at the Shrine.

No, seriously.

I kind of agree with this; I really liked the twilight archon idea. Does anyone know what happened to the different kinds of archons? Unless I'm misremembering, there used to be light, twilight and dark archons, each with different abilities.

Vei

United States2845 Posts

May 11 2010 21:56 GMT

#31

I have a feeling stuff like DA/upgrades at the dark shrine are being saved for a later expack ;o

Half

United States2554 Posts

May 11 2010 21:58 GMT

#32

On May 12 2010 06:14 MasterFwiffo wrote:
Frankly, we could fix this by bringing back Dark and TWilight Archons and putting DA abilities at the Shrine.

No, seriously.

Then protoss would have FIVE more units then the zerg lol.

It was the same exact system except the Archons were called different things, Dark Archons have never existed in the history of public SC2 beta releases. At one point though, it had feedback. I suspect they changed the name so they could add REAL twilight archons with differing abilities in the campaign later down the road. .

Aesop

Hungary11305 Posts

May 11 2010 22:02 GMT

#33

I disagree at the point that they are not valuable in PvT. I had some success with a DT expand opening that transitions into High Templars while pressuring with DTs. The seeming "easy" counters are all very limited:

- Scan DOES cost 270 minerals
- Turrets cannot be everywhere and they do not walk - so you get to expand for free
- Wall-ins can be negated by Warp Prisms.

So as a means of temporary map control, they are useful.

However I agree with your point that the building is rather underwhelming in its functions.

Zaphid

Czech Republic1860 Posts

May 11 2010 22:11 GMT

#34

Mixing a DT into your ball for late game is very effective, unless they have detection outright, many people miss them in the fray and they can get you decent amount of kills, but unless you enemy doesn't pay attention, they will never win you the game alone. Sure they are a bit gas heavy, but it's nothing you can't afford when you are on 2-3 bases, and it discourages 1base DT rushes, which is imo good.

520

United States2822 Posts

May 11 2010 22:18 GMT

#35

I actually did say that I like DTs in PvT the most out of all the matchups because it is the only matchup I feel where it is not some sort of all-inish play. I haven't experimented with it that much vs. Zerg but whenever I get DT'd as Protoss I either defend it and win easily or lose to it straight up.

Malingo

United States45 Posts

May 11 2010 22:26 GMT

#36

I think that a few upgrades from the dark shrine are a must. The building is too expensive to not get any other benefit. These upgrades do not need to be for the DT and in fact I think they shouldn't be. The DT is powerful enough as is. It may be that Blizzard is saving the upgrades for a later expansion and as Vei said above but it would be nice if they gave us one at least.

SiegeFlank

United States410 Posts

May 11 2010 22:32 GMT

#37

DT's don't really give me any problems in TvP as I open with a fast raven, but I'm sure it could catch many players off guard who don't use the same build.

I do think it's silly that they split dark templars away from the templar archives, at least when you consider that the dark shrine serves no other purpose than to make DTs. I think that a good upgrade for them would be increased movement speed (as it was rumored in patch 11). It would make them much more powerful as harassment units. That said, I think that they could still use SOME other buff or upgrade aside from movement speed before they really start to see more play.

Vexx

United States462 Posts

May 11 2010 22:39 GMT

#38

I don't play toss but if I did, I would be known for my usage of the DT.

I think the templar line should be buffed with a single building for both templars and a cheaper storm research with a longer +25 energy research.

More powerful cloaked units would make detection worthwhile in SC2. Currently, detection is near useless.

Also, add lurker.

t3tsubo

Canada682 Posts

May 11 2010 23:08 GMT

#39

RUSHING for anything should be a do or die strategy. I hardly ever rush for dts, theyre more of a midgame harrass unit that I can plop down to kill workers out of the pylons i have scattered around the map. I still robo bay first, and I personally dont find it very hard to hide my DT tech, just put it in a corner or at a corner of an unused base.

Twinweapon

United States90 Posts

May 11 2010 23:28 GMT

#40

1st thing they need to do is make the scv hp 50 or 55 so they do not 1 hit scv's because to be honest when toss has DT's there are at most 6. They move faster then any Terran ground unit w/o stim besides the reaper w/upgrade and if timed right with an obs, Toss can use them the second Terran drops his mules.

This timing when perfect will either end the game asap or allow toss to make a come back. It is fine were it is, but imo should cost more gas as it is the most critical and game changing unit for toss (imo again). Hell I would enjoy the ability of them being the one unit toss can't warp in and to create them they need to close the warp gate as that only takes 3 seconds and then make the unit in 55 seconds, but hell that's me hating on the unit so it could be a little rash. Even if scouted DT drops are game changing because if an opposing player has map control and army is not at main it easily allows DT's enough time to destroy supply depots and any other key buildings they want to destroy or stop production.

Just how effective they are against Terran is unbelievable.

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