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United States2822 Posts
These were some things I thought about while taking a shower this morning, so I figured I'd post them to TeamLiquid. I admit I haven't put TOO much thought into the idea so it's not very fleshed out. I just wanted some opinions from the community as to what they think.
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The Protoss Dark Shrine is currently one of two buildings (the other being the Protoss Pylon) that does absolutely nothing. The Dark Shrine lacks upgrades and only serves to unlock the ability to create Dark Templar at the Gateway/Warp Gate. It costs 100 minerals and 250 gas to build, and takes 100 seconds to completely warp in.
The Dark Templar that it allows the creation of has been the focus of some balance issues towards the beginning of the beta. It costs 125 minerals, 125 gas and 2 food to warp in. It takes 55 seconds to fully create (or invokes a 45 second cooldown on the Warp Gate that warps it in). It's permanently cloaked and does 45 (+5/upgrade) damage without bonuses.
But I'm sure you all knew that already, right?
My current issues with the Dark Templar are not balance-related at all. I, however, think that creating this unit is a very do-or-die strategy. Because of the major resource and, more importantly, time investment that goes into getting Dark Templar tech, Dark Templars often need to do significant damage or end the game outright otherwise it puts the Protoss player at a heavy disadvantage.
In Protoss vs. Protoss, where Robotics openings are most popular (although the Stargate opening is popular, it often gets a Forge for detection), Dark Templar are not often seen because of the prevalence of Observers. In the cases where Protoss does not get early detection (possibly through DT rushing themselves), DTs end the game immediately.
In Protoss vs. Terran, the Orbital Command's scanning ability, the Missile Turret, and the easy wallins render most Dark Templar openings nullified. Although a Scan does "cost" the Terran 270 minerals, the amount of time and resources lost by the Protoss can be much more than this. Dark Templar in this matchup primarily serve to keep the Terran in their base while the Protoss expands. I like the strategical use of Dark Templar in this matchup the most.
In Protoss vs. Zerg, the Dark Templar seems to be the most useful. Because of the movement of Overseer detection to Lair tech, and the requirement to morph individual Overlords to detect, Dark Templar are more likely to do their damage. However, because of this ability of Overlords to quickly change into a detector and the more mobile nature of the Zerg on their home base, Zerg can also recover from Dark Templar faster than the other races.
I propose a few stylistic changes to the Dark Templar that allow it to fulfill the position of a harassing unit and a combat specialist, not an all-in unit like it is right now.
One - Reduce the build time of the Dark Shrine back to its original build time, or lower. 100 seconds is a very long time and often lends itself to the strategy being scouted easily, which further exacerbates the problems with going the strategy.
Two - Dark Templar uncloak themselves upon attacking for 2 seconds. This ability is similar to Rikimaru's from DotA. Because of the lower building time of the Dark Shrine, the Dark Templar needs to have some sort of drawback as a result. This allows the Dark Templar to come out earlier and do economic harassment, but also reduces its ability to end the game immediately.
Three - Give the Dark Shrine a number of upgrades for the Dark Templar. The Dark Templar is a unit that exists only to do major economic damage or to end the game outright. I've heard similar comments about the Terran Reaper, where the unit is created to do damage and then ignored for the rest of the game. However, the Reaper requires no additional tech and time to get to, as Terrans get Tech Labs for their buildings anyway. I propose the following upgrades available from the Dark Shrine:
Assassination - Removes the uncloak from the Dark Templar's attack. This returns the Dark Templar to the point it is right now. Researching this gives the Protoss the option of playing the way they do right now - that is, a more cheesy-style all-in end-the-game Dark Templar rush.
Void Shift - Passively allows the Dark Templar to pass through units and Force Fields. This gives the Dark Templar the ability to pick off key units in an opponent's army such as High Templar, Infestors and Ghosts and also can reinforce the Protoss idea of forced positional advantage.
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idk about the cloak-uncloak parts but the void shift ability would be nice
dark templars seem to be useless for toss atm except if you mix in a few for big battles where they go unnoticed with the lack of detection
dark templar rushes work sometimes but not enough to make them a big part of the game
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while you've come up with some creative ideas, I have no complaints with dts. they are similar to the reaper, in that it makes a good harass unit. As well, I love having a few dt's with my regular army. Alot of people dont notice the few dt's mixed in with my zealots, and the dt's do really great at adding that extra bit of dps to my force. When my opponent notices they are there, they most often think it's not worth the effort to get detection just to deal with the few dt's, since the biggest threat is my main army.
imo, make the dark shrine more useful by merging templar archives with it. Give us DT's and HT's from the same tech building, and they both become more viable. It might encourage people to go templar archives instead of robo/stargate
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United States42252 Posts
They serve a purpose right now. They're the rock in the rock paper scissors. But that doesn't add to the game. I'd certainly like them to be patched in some way.
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Make an upgrade that lets them get warped in (beyond the warpgate).
DTs would be created only at gateways until an upgrade at dark shrine allows warp in via an upgrade.
Maybe this would help some controversy surrounding warped in DTs
Either that, or letting them get warped in, but visible and vulnerable to attack, with the upgrade allowing cloaked warp in.
DTs are underwhelming ATM
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...How long was your shower???? 
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DTs really take 0 seconds to build though, because you will have warp gates by then, so the 55 seconds is insignificant.
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2 ideas for DT upgrades that will make it once again the most hated unit in the game:
1 ability that COMPLETELY cloaks the DT without detection, IE you cant see it moving around AT ALL without detection (no shadows or whatever). also it doenst make any sound when it attacks lol.
another ability that makes it so that the game will never tell the player when their units are under attack by DTs EVER.
I think that should fix DTs
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i odnt like the shrine either. its 250 gas. should've just kept templar tech to just one building and left it at that.
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Dts are fine the way they are, and are still useful at any point in the game.
Just for one example: PvT you say that dts are weak because terrans always have scans. So what? Keep your dts separated from each other. Leave your opponent wasting all their scans just to try and find one of your dts. Any time a scan goes off, try and run that one away, and hit him somewhere else.
or. In the late game, when your moving a large army toward their front door, run a couple of dts around the side to flank.
These are just a couple of suggestions off the top of my head, to illustrate how dts are plenty powerful the way they are, you just need to be more creative when using them.
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Let's make DTs more used by lowering the build cost, then forcing an ability upon them which ruins the entire point of the perma-cloak?
Eh. I don't really agree with the changes. I think it'd be nice if the Dark Shrine held upgrades for Stalker and Void Ray (since they ARE inventions of the Dark Templar, after all), something like a range upgrade for Stalkers or a charge upgrade for Void Rays.
The only upgrades that DTs really need are Weapons upgrades.
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I think part of the answer could be to put dt back into the templar archives, just as a research or something along those lines. Part of the joy of dt in broodwar was the air of chance around the building: the protoss could be going for fast storms, or dt, or both at a later date. Having a separate building takes all of the guesswork out of scouting.
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DTs are the coolest protoss unit by a mile except for maybe immortal! I think the high cost is due to them being insanely powerly though. I don't think they need a change, they simply are only used by certain players, like goody, but you see they do AMAZING damage when they are used. I think they are like reapers and blink stalkers they are not used much until people start to experiment more.
Right now they are really powerful and can win games instantly, and for a low risk.
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I do like the idea of re-combining the dark shrine and the archive.
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United States12235 Posts
The whole point of separating the DT and HT prerequisites was to make sure DTs came out later than HTs. It was a valid balance concern in the early days of BW and they sidestepped that problem by diverging the techs in SC2.
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Frankly, we could fix this by bringing back Dark and TWilight Archons and putting DA abilities at the Shrine.
No, seriously.
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Void shift would allow some crazy stacked DT micro to one shot small buildings and such.
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I agree with you on the build time being too long but I think that is because Zerg has to wait till lair to get any detection (other than the anti-air building).
I agree with the combine the Dark Shrine and the Templar Archive idea from Zeke.
I must say that your argument is a little unclear to me you say:
100 seconds is a very long time and often lends itself to the strategy being scouted easily, which further exacerbates the problems with going the strategy.
But then you say
Dark Templar uncloak themselves upon attacking for 2 seconds.
I mean you reduce the build time because it can be scouted easily but then you actually reveal the units when they attack? Doesn't make sense to me. In other words they won't even need detection to kill them (120 hp/shields isn't that much to take down).
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imo they should just remove the shrine and let DT's come from templar archives...
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I don't think BLizzard should mess with the unit itself (Except giving it back the fucking warp blade, this scythe thing looks ridiculous). The only thing that might be good is reducing the build time of the shrine. It takes the longest to build in the entire game and being actually useless other than unlocking a unit that actually depends on the element of surprise, this is not appropriate.
Other than that, the DT is fine. Just as in SC1 it sometimes can save your ass if you are behind and with scans being so valuable and so rare, you can do a lot of damage if you separate them and force terran to waste scans on every single one or giving you mapcontrol.
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Dark Templar function just fine the way they are. The only change I would appreciate is scrap the Dark Shrine and have Templar Archives function the way it did in Brood War. It costs way too much gas to get High Templar as it is, you may as well get the added bonus of having Dark Templar tech. I believe the Dark Shrine was added because of how powerful both the Dark Templar and High Templar are immediately upon warp in (HT's can feedback both Terran and Zerg detectors for an instant kill).
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Rushing for DTs feels much weaker than in BroodWar, not that it's a bad thing...
But in the mid / late game, DTs are as strong as ever. Detection is much harder to come by for Terran and Zerg, so using them for map control and harass is very effective. And the warp-in feature makes DTs so much more deadly, you can use a proxy Pylon or a Warp Prism to make harassment even stronger. I don't think that DTs are weak at all.
I think it's OK for Templar tech to be split into two buildings, simply because DTs are stronger than they used to be. Though it would be nice to have the Dark Shrine have some sort of upgrade.
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On May 12 2010 05:27 Newguy wrote:
DTs really take 0 seconds to build though, because you will have warp gates by then, so the 55 seconds is insignificant.
But the CD on the warpgate becomes longer, so its not insignificant.
Anyway,
I recently watched Artosis' interview of Tester and I really liked his idea of "fixing" DTs: Make them an upgrade at the templar archives. I can however see why blizzard chose to make the DT building separate, or at least imo, because if not scouted correctly it can easily end the game. So by making it an upgrade at the templar archives it would be really difficult to scout whether the protoss is going for storm or DTs. If this really is such a huge problem though I guess they could make some aesthetic change to the archives post upgrade.
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Honestly I think DT's are a great harass/contain unit. The build time might be a little too long, but I think it can still be used very well as it is.
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On May 12 2010 06:36 drlame wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 05:27 Newguy wrote:
DTs really take 0 seconds to build though, because you will have warp gates by then, so the 55 seconds is insignificant. But the CD on the warpgate becomes longer, so its not insignificant. Anyway, I recently watched Artosis' interview of Tester and I really liked his idea of "fixing" DTs: Make them an upgrade at the templar archives. I can however see why blizzard chose to make the DT building separate, or at least imo, because if not scouted correctly it can easily end the game. So by making it an upgrade at the templar archives it would be really difficult to scout whether the protoss is going for storm or DTs. If this really is such a huge problem though I guess they could make some aesthetic change to the archives post upgrade.
ReGating means it really is insignificant (i.e. Warping a DT, switching to Gateway during the warp, producing something the "normal" way, then just switching back to Warp Gate with only a couple seconds of "lost" time, but also with an additional unit in that same amount of time)
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I disagree about the vs T statement. If you spread 3 dark templar you can inflict 1000 minerals of damage and that's without touching any unit with them. The same way that burrowed roaches are dangerous for two reasons, DT's can severely screw one's economy big time. I also like to warp-in them in the back of t's base if i have done immortal shuttle harass before that. Has anyone tried using archons since the last patch?? Their splash radius and the way it works have undergone some good changes, I'm curious cause I'm currently on a break from P.
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Yeah DTs are perfectly fine as is. Of course they're not a unit everyone uses every single game, they have a specific purpose and fill a nice niche. Killing a few workers and forcing your opponent to put up detection all around their base is already making it cost effective. Watch Inka and his DTs and you won't say they need tweaking :p
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how can you say DT's are 100% always an allin unit? That's just flat out wrong.
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The DT tech tree reminds me of the Battlecruiser tech tree except they don't get any upgrades from their tech building.
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On May 12 2010 06:14 MasterFwiffo wrote:
Frankly, we could fix this by bringing back Dark and TWilight Archons and putting DA abilities at the Shrine.
No, seriously.
I kind of agree with this; I really liked the twilight archon idea. Does anyone know what happened to the different kinds of archons? Unless I'm misremembering, there used to be light, twilight and dark archons, each with different abilities.
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I have a feeling stuff like DA/upgrades at the dark shrine are being saved for a later expack ;o
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On May 12 2010 06:14 MasterFwiffo wrote:
Frankly, we could fix this by bringing back Dark and TWilight Archons and putting DA abilities at the Shrine.
No, seriously.
Then protoss would have FIVE more units then the zerg lol.
I kind of agree with this; I really liked the twilight archon idea. Does anyone know what happened to the different kinds of archons? Unless I'm misremembering, there used to be light, twilight and dark archons, each with different abilities.
It was the same exact system except the Archons were called different things, Dark Archons have never existed in the history of public SC2 beta releases. At one point though, it had feedback. I suspect they changed the name so they could add REAL twilight archons with differing abilities in the campaign later down the road. .
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Hungary11270 Posts
I disagree at the point that they are not valuable in PvT. I had some success with a DT expand opening that transitions into High Templars while pressuring with DTs. The seeming "easy" counters are all very limited:
- Scan DOES cost 270 minerals
- Turrets cannot be everywhere and they do not walk - so you get to expand for free
- Wall-ins can be negated by Warp Prisms.
So as a means of temporary map control, they are useful.
However I agree with your point that the building is rather underwhelming in its functions.
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Mixing a DT into your ball for late game is very effective, unless they have detection outright, many people miss them in the fray and they can get you decent amount of kills, but unless you enemy doesn't pay attention, they will never win you the game alone. Sure they are a bit gas heavy, but it's nothing you can't afford when you are on 2-3 bases, and it discourages 1base DT rushes, which is imo good.
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United States2822 Posts
I actually did say that I like DTs in PvT the most out of all the matchups because it is the only matchup I feel where it is not some sort of all-inish play. I haven't experimented with it that much vs. Zerg but whenever I get DT'd as Protoss I either defend it and win easily or lose to it straight up.
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I think that a few upgrades from the dark shrine are a must. The building is too expensive to not get any other benefit. These upgrades do not need to be for the DT and in fact I think they shouldn't be. The DT is powerful enough as is. It may be that Blizzard is saving the upgrades for a later expansion and as Vei said above but it would be nice if they gave us one at least.
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DT's don't really give me any problems in TvP as I open with a fast raven, but I'm sure it could catch many players off guard who don't use the same build.
I do think it's silly that they split dark templars away from the templar archives, at least when you consider that the dark shrine serves no other purpose than to make DTs. I think that a good upgrade for them would be increased movement speed (as it was rumored in patch 11). It would make them much more powerful as harassment units. That said, I think that they could still use SOME other buff or upgrade aside from movement speed before they really start to see more play.
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I don't play toss but if I did, I would be known for my usage of the DT.
I think the templar line should be buffed with a single building for both templars and a cheaper storm research with a longer +25 energy research.
More powerful cloaked units would make detection worthwhile in SC2. Currently, detection is near useless.
Also, add lurker.
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RUSHING for anything should be a do or die strategy. I hardly ever rush for dts, theyre more of a midgame harrass unit that I can plop down to kill workers out of the pylons i have scattered around the map. I still robo bay first, and I personally dont find it very hard to hide my DT tech, just put it in a corner or at a corner of an unused base.
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1st thing they need to do is make the scv hp 50 or 55 so they do not 1 hit scv's because to be honest when toss has DT's there are at most 6. They move faster then any Terran ground unit w/o stim besides the reaper w/upgrade and if timed right with an obs, Toss can use them the second Terran drops his mules.
This timing when perfect will either end the game asap or allow toss to make a come back. It is fine were it is, but imo should cost more gas as it is the most critical and game changing unit for toss (imo again). Hell I would enjoy the ability of them being the one unit toss can't warp in and to create them they need to close the warp gate as that only takes 3 seconds and then make the unit in 55 seconds, but hell that's me hating on the unit so it could be a little rash. Even if scouted DT drops are game changing because if an opposing player has map control and army is not at main it easily allows DT's enough time to destroy supply depots and any other key buildings they want to destroy or stop production.
Just how effective they are against Terran is unbelievable.
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The Dark Templar is not an all in unit, since the dark shrine requires a Templar archives, if you have dts you already have the tech buildings for storm, charge, and blink. All of which are useful in a number of MUs.
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On May 12 2010 08:08 t3tsubo wrote:
RUSHING for anything should be a do or die strategy. I hardly ever rush for dts, theyre more of a midgame harrass unit that I can plop down to kill workers out of the pylons i have scattered around the map. I still robo bay first, and I personally dont find it very hard to hide my DT tech, just put it in a corner or at a corner of an unused base.
I tend to follow along this guy's thought processes. Dark Templar are something I use when I'm ahead or planning a frontal assault. I'll generally use a warp prism, warp about 3-4 in the back of their base, then push an expo or their front door with my main force. Sending the Dark Templars in at that point can generally snipe the command center/hatchery/nexus (An aside - is there a single word for that central building? Writing a list seems inefficient D:) or at least wreak some serious havoc.
That being said, I'm a Gold player, so I'm finding tactics that tend to fluster or make my enemy panic very very effective. The same is likely not true at high Plat level where they'll be able to gauge proportional response or realise that the army attacking at the front door is going to be smaller than theirs, due to the cost of DT tech.
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i think it's pretty obvious that one of the expansions will give dark shrine an upgrade for DTs down the road. IMO I think each expansion will add 1 new unit and 2 or 3 new abilities to each race. There is clearly a hole in the dark shrine for a new ability down the road.
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10387 Posts
Dark shrine feels so tacked on though, it should really be removed from the game. If it was a prerequisite building to say, Void Rays (like how Templar Archives was needed for Arbiter Tribunial, which leads us to the DT Rush into 2 base Arbiters strategy), the Dark Shrine could serve as a sexy build full of smooth transitions, but otherwise it feels too tacked on.
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Y not just give the DT a speed boost upgrade and an attack speed upgrade. have the upgrades take 100 seconds instead of the darkshrine taking so long :D
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the thing is in some specific situation, DTs turn out to be an absolute solution such that if you buff it even more, it will become imba
deciding to go DTs make you lose the chance to get the other branch of tech (blink/charge/HT) but come to think of it, for example, PvP with ur foe 4gates rush into expan (which is kinda fail  ) when can clearly see the lack of detection
or with the buff of tanks, T users start having mech in their army, this mean that engineering bay and turret will less likely appear early game which "just enough" time for you to do a DT rush...
same to zerg if you can pull out phoenixes dts
but all of the above require an excellence timing + scouting information which can hardly pull of from 2 people as the same skill level which make DTs become a risky build.
personally im still using it, alot, and die+regret since i didnt go HT but some time it turns out to be perfect xD
DTs using was the Protoss' art in Starcraft and same thing goes for sc2 xD
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The Dark Shrine design is, by itself, special.
I mean, its 2x2 on the grid, and it goes tall as if it was a tower or something. So it's meant to be placed almost anywhere on the map (to hide it) and it's very unique and easy to spot.
It is meant to easily reveal the tech if you manage to spot it. Thus, it can't be merged with the archives and does not need any upgrades, it's a tech-revealer building, if we can call it that way.
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All we can hope for is another patch by Blizzard or hope when the full version comes out, somebody (progamer or not) will revolutionize its metagame  Bisu style
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countersuggestion:
Leave the tech as it is and add an upgrade to the shrine:
- DTs can cloak other units (with the use of energy)
It would be countered by the same things that counters DTs and give the shrinetech variety.
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The only thing I would like to see is an upgrade in the DS that gives DTs the ability to switch between faster attack speed and permacloak. When you have the "fast attack" mode on, the DT is completely visible, attacks more quickly, and has the same damage it has now, and in the other mode, they are they way they are now but with a lower attack. It would work similar to the way siege mode works for tanks. Then lower the cost of the shrine to maybe 150 gas, and make the upgrade 150/150 or 200/150 or something along those lines. This would make DT harassment less "end-the-game-now-if-it-works," and give them a utility beyond just harassing mineral lines, as they would be no more useful than any other unit as harassment, but give them potential utility in the protoss' main army.
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I think the whole templar tech tree is botched, they need to have one building again, and maybe bring back dark archons with new abilities!
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I remember one game of PvP being extremely behind as he went a heavy aggression build of Gateways on Steppes. I managed to repel him but at the cost of many probes, severely hurting my economy. I decided to use a last ditch effort and build a dark shrine, and distracted him with the remaining stalkers I had.
I managed to get a DT in and he only had 1 pylon powering ALL his production buildings (lol) and destroyed it. Was a great comeback :D
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I think just decreasing the build time on the dark shrine would fix the problem, as by the time you get them out, mobile detection is available for all races.
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Right now dark shrine only requires a twilight council and no templar archives. Therefore, the player is forced to choose either ht or dt. Instead, the player should be given more incentive to make dark templars, by getting the dark shrine. I think the best way to do this would be to add upgrades to stalker and pheonix through the dark shrine. Maybe greater atack range for the stalker and more armor for the pheonix.
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On May 12 2010 08:37 mity wrote:
The Dark Templar is not an all in unit, since the dark shrine requires a Templar archives, if you have dts you already have the tech buildings for storm, charge, and blink. All of which are useful in a number of MUs.
You fail sir. Dark Shrine does not require a templar archives. It only requires a citadel.
Personally, I think DTs are perfectly fine as is. Even after detection, they still do a really good amount of damage to merit being put in with your regular army. At 3 upgrades, they do a whopping 60 damage per hit. In addition, if your opponent does not carry detection along with their army, it is easy to snipe key units during an engagement anyways.
DTs need no changing.
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On May 29 2010 01:23 jamie wrote:
I think the whole templar tech tree is botched, they need to have one building again, and maybe bring back dark archons with new abilities!
I actually like the fact that the templar tech is split. But the DT needs an upgrade at the shrine that supports his role. I do not like the suggestions here that would make DTs come out faster or that make him more of a fighting unit.
so take a look at his role: DTs are harassers. they pop out where your defense and scouting is weak. and exactly this should be improved and not the other way around!
The darkshrine upgrade could be one of the following (just to give a few examples):
- significantly more damage to buildings
(enemy has spread defenses so you build DTs and make use of it)
-ability to cloack other units with energy
(like I suggested above, it would be countered in the same way as DTs themselves but it would improve tactical varieties of the shrine)
-significant movementspeed upgrade
(this would make the immobile lategame protoss army more mobile in general. and the DTs would be more reactive)
-AoE unit lockdown (like Feedback from SCBW)
(remember this underused BW ability? on the DT it would make sense since its better against less units. the more units it hits the less it endures. so it would be exactly a harassing ability)
-singletarget lockdown
(similar as above)
-income steal from a nexus/hatch/cc
(again a pure harassing thing. maybe it should be only a % of the total income or a fix amount per DT)
my personal preference would be the +dmg against buildings or the income steal 
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United States25 Posts
Wouldn't it be cool if the dark shrine was a cloaked building?
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I think it would be cool if Dark shrine could act as a secondary macro ability where you can cloak individual units for a few seconds, like a chronoboost that cloaks units like immortals/high templars/voidrays/collosus at critical moments in the game.
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EPT
