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As many of you probably already know, blizzard and kespa have been going at it for years on the distribution rights and property rights etc. on broadcasted tournaments/ladders/whatever you want to call it in korea. We all know there are also many MANY tournaments going on (razer, TLI, HDH, etc.) all around the world.
How does blizzards stance on wanting to have their hand in e-sports affect the way these smaller tournaments run today/will run once release hits?
as it stands, it looks like blizzard wants to basically run kespa when they dont like something theyre doing and sit back and collect money if kespa does what blizzard wants. i am not debating their right to do or not to do so, but more interested in if a new american/european company/internet broadcasting company wanted to run tournaments/ladders of SC2 today. would they have to jump through all the hoops to do so? or is kespa singled out simply because of their size and popularity?
one that comes to mind is Razer, they just had their international tournament.. did they have to get the "go ahead" from blizzard? how does that work?
i as well as many/most/all of you are extremely interested in the broadcasting of sc2 as an e-sport both foreign and domestic.. so please enlighten me/us!
edit: not sure if this belongs in general or in sc2. moderators do what you will.
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I really doubt they will care until the host starts making some decent bank. Right now I don't see much profit, as it takes a hell of a lot of work, multiple people working, small sponsors, and it is beta.
If any of the tourneys pick up some ground I'm sure Actibliz will be on their backs.
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Yes, you gotta ask for permission if you want to do a tournament in the beta, but I don't know if they will keep it when the actual game is released.
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On May 11 2010 20:21 ToeJam wrote:
I really doubt they will care until the host starts making some decent bank. Right now I don't see much profit, as it takes a hell of a lot of work, multiple people working, small sponsors, and it is beta.
If any of the tourneys pick up some ground I'm sure Actibliz will be on their backs.
cant make any decent bank without gaining some ground and popularity.. cant gain any ground or popularity if you cant get by actibliz legal.. cant get any big sponsorships without being a legitimate company.. really trying to see what we as individuals or even what companies can do at this point and onward
On May 11 2010 20:27 MarCoon wrote:
Yes, you gotta ask for permission if you want to do a tournament in the beta, but I don't know if they will keep it when the actual game is released.
do you have any documentation on this? did the TLI, razer tourny, HDH, etc. all have permission? who do you ask permission from? is there a specific e-sports broadcasting liaison that individuals/companies can contact within blizzard?
watched link, based on what artosis said it looks like you do have to have permission, at least for LAN tournaments. Most likely for internet tournaments as well. still looking for more info on the specifics
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On May 11 2010 20:27 MarCoon wrote:
Yes, you gotta ask for permission if you want to do a tournament in the beta, but I don't know if they will keep it when the actual game is released.
Offcourse they will.
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mrgoochio you gotta trust me on this one sir 
On May 11 2010 20:29 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2010 20:27 MarCoon wrote:
Yes, you gotta ask for permission if you want to do a tournament in the beta, but I don't know if they will keep it when the actual game is released. Offcourse they will.
I still hope they won't
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On May 11 2010 20:38 MarCoon wrote:mrgoochio you gotta trust me on this one sir Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 20:29 Nyovne wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 11 2010 20:27 MarCoon wrote:
Yes, you gotta ask for permission if you want to do a tournament in the beta, but I don't know if they will keep it when the actual game is released. Offcourse they will. I still hope they won't
I am not doubting it, but I'm interested in more information on the specifics. blizzard esports broadcasting/tournament/LAN liaison info? blizzard's official documentation on their policy/rules? etc. etc.
thanks for the info so far though
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There is no such specific info out yet as far as I know.
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Any idea where HDH, razer, MLG, or any of these other individuals/companies got their information from?
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Most of the bigger sites got a mail from Blizzard about that. HDH probably got some help from TLs side.
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Zurich15355 Posts
Just like has been said, you need a license from Blizzard to run broadcasted tournaments. So far for the Beta this has been no problem.
This was also the case with SCBW btw and is not something new.
There is no official Blizzard documentation I am aware of.
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On May 11 2010 21:31 zatic wrote:
Just like has been said, you need a license from Blizzard to run broadcasted tournaments. So far for the Beta this has been no problem.
This was also the case with SCBW btw and is not something new.
There is no official Blizzard documentation I am aware of.
ill be the first one to admit that i have only recently been interested in the specifics on how this all works, so i apologize in advance. if i am missing some obvious information on how to find out more about the process to obtain a license from blizzard or even how to contact the correct person/department regarding this, please point me in the right direction!
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On May 11 2010 21:38 mrgoochio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 21:31 zatic wrote:
Just like has been said, you need a license from Blizzard to run broadcasted tournaments. So far for the Beta this has been no problem.
This was also the case with SCBW btw and is not something new.
There is no official Blizzard documentation I am aware of. ill be the first one to admit that i have only recently been interested in the specifics on how this all works, so i apologize in advance. if i am missing some obvious information on how to find out more about the process to obtain a license from blizzard or even how to contact the correct person/department regarding this, please point me in the right direction!
I think I got an email about it, but I can't find the bloody thing. Wasn't there a sticky on the b.net forums about tournament organising and the hoops you had to jump through?
Ahh yes, here's the EU version
Interested in running Starcraft II beta tournaments? Please send an email with the following information about your tournament to sc-tourneyinfo-eu@blizzard.com .
• Name of the tournament
• Name of the person operating the tournament
• Name of the organization running the tournament
• Contact information
• Mailing address
• Times and dates of your tournament
• Participating country(ies)
• List of tournament sponsors and partners
We will review and evaluate your request.
Thank you,
Blizzard eSports Team
As regards to the legality of general broadcast, that's a murky quagmire of international copyright law, intermingled with the DMCA and the concept of fair use, aka. a fucking mess. Long story short, Blizzard won't do crap until there's a lot of money involved.
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It will be free in beta to make them popular but who knows if they will start charging and controlling sponsors and other stuff on release like they want to charge and control kespa..
Tournament like HDH get millions of views.. I dont see them ignoring it.
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On May 11 2010 22:56 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 21:38 mrgoochio wrote:On May 11 2010 21:31 zatic wrote:
Just like has been said, you need a license from Blizzard to run broadcasted tournaments. So far for the Beta this has been no problem.
This was also the case with SCBW btw and is not something new.
There is no official Blizzard documentation I am aware of. ill be the first one to admit that i have only recently been interested in the specifics on how this all works, so i apologize in advance. if i am missing some obvious information on how to find out more about the process to obtain a license from blizzard or even how to contact the correct person/department regarding this, please point me in the right direction! I think I got an email about it, but I can't find the bloody thing. Wasn't there a sticky on the b.net forums about tournament organising and the hoops you had to jump through? Ahh yes, here's the EU version Show nested quote +Interested in running Starcraft II beta tournaments? Please send an email with the following information about your tournament to sc-tourneyinfo-eu@blizzard.com .
• Name of the tournament
• Name of the person operating the tournament
• Name of the organization running the tournament
• Contact information
• Mailing address
• Times and dates of your tournament
• Participating country(ies)
• List of tournament sponsors and partners
We will review and evaluate your request.
Thank you,
Blizzard eSports Team As regards to the legality of general broadcast, that's a murky quagmire of international copyright law, intermingled with the DMCA and the concept of fair use, aka. a fucking mess. Long story short, Blizzard won't do crap until there's a lot of money involved.
very informative post, thanks.
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So did Husky and HD for example had to ask Blizzard?
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googling sc-tourneyinfo turned up some various links that eventually lead me to find a post about the NA information (basically the same thing, different email addy)
Interested in running Starcraft II beta tournaments? Please send an email with the following information about your tournament to sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com.
• Name of the tournament
• Name of the person operating the tournament
• Name of the organization running the tournament
• Contact information
• Mailing address
• Times and dates of your tournament
• Participating country(ies)
• List of tournament sponsors and partners
We will review and evaluate your request.
Thank you,
Blizzard eSports Team
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On May 11 2010 23:21 Clamev wrote:
So did Husky and HD for example had to ask Blizzard?
After looking into this for a few hours, I'm guessing: yes
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They will have emailed the eSports team yes, and there ya go, that's the US version of the form.
Blizzard tend to cooperate early on with this kind of thing, expect a harder line later, if my experience running an official fansite for WoW was anything to go by. They need backing to start with and that need lessens as time goes on and they become less receptive to dealing with third parties. Who knows, maybe they'll be more cooperative this time around.
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taking a look at their "negotiations" with kespa, not likely lol. got my fingers crossed though!
edit: although I found blizzards NA contact info, anyone who has any other thoughts/input/experience etc. is more than welcome to chime in. The more readily available information regarding the expansion of e-sports the better.
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It seems to me that blizzard would be wise to have a threshold system in place where tournaments below a certain number of players, below a certain prize pool, that is being organized by fans and not by a company/organization and that is only being broadcasted over the internet should get a free pass to go. Otherwise the risk is that this is just going to kill off stuff like the HDH invitational in the future. As someone pointed out Blizzard is being very accommodating now to requests because its beta and they want the publicity. In one year from now expect that no tournament initiatives by fans, that does not involve lots of sponsor money is going to get approval.
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I wonder where the line is drawn for this. I can think of some examples in the gray area:
- broadcasting your own game in a tournament you participated in
- broadcasting someone's game from a random tournament
- hosting a tournament that isn't broadcasted
- hosting a tournament that isn't broadcasted but with replays released
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So what happens if you managed to host a big tournament with success without Blizzard's consent? They send their eSport soldiers to hunt you down?
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Well I'd imagine that doing so violates something in the EULA and they can sue.
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On May 12 2010 02:21 lolaloc wrote:
So what happens if you managed to host a big tournament with success without Blizzard's consent? They send their eSport soldiers to hunt you down?
It's intellectual property infringement, they'll serve a DMCA take-down notice and then sue you if you don't comply.
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Every(non basement) video game tournament gets the 'go ahead' from the respected company or there is no tournament.
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On May 12 2010 01:41 teko wrote:
I wonder where the line is drawn for this. I can think of some examples in the gray area:
- broadcasting your own game in a tournament you participated in
- broadcasting someone's game from a random tournament
- hosting a tournament that isn't broadcasted
- hosting a tournament that isn't broadcasted but with replays released
I'd also like to know some more specifics on this. I think if blizzard is really going to take esports seriously, they will eventually publish some type of documentation outlining their stance and policies to the public. i haven't been able to find anything so far, but i may have missed it.
On May 12 2010 02:33 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 02:21 lolaloc wrote:
So what happens if you managed to host a big tournament with success without Blizzard's consent? They send their eSport soldiers to hunt you down? It's intellectual property infringement, they'll serve a DMCA take-down notice and then sue you if you don't comply.
So does that mean other e-sports related game companies just don't care? obviously if it is intellectual property infringement, they have the choice to pursue the offenders.. but for example, I don't recall hearing any issues with counterstrike 1.6 or source related issues. 1.6 is huge in the international scene. However, starcraft broadcasting in korea is admittedly on another level.
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On May 12 2010 02:37 mrgoochio wrote:
So does that mean other e-sports related game companies just don't care? obviously if it is intellectual property infringement, they have the choice to pursue the offenders.. but for example, I don't recall hearing any issues with counterstrike 1.6 or source related issues. 1.6 is huge in the international scene. However, starcraft broadcasting in korea is admittedly on another level.
It's extremely complex and far beyond my level of expertise and it's precisely this complexity that makes it horribly expensive and time-consuming to bring any kind of case against it even if the company in question wanted to, which a lot of them don't. I mean what's the benefit of suing CS 1.6 broadcasters?
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I agree, and same question.. but for SC2 broadcasters (minus any of the organizations under kespa lol)
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On May 12 2010 03:09 mrgoochio wrote:
I agree, and same question.. but for SC2 broadcasters (minus any of the organizations under kespa lol)
I highly doubt ActiBlizz will sue any online SC2 broadcasters, there is nothing to gain from it.
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Currently, we are in contact with Blizzard regarding the HDH.
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On May 12 2010 02:37 mrgoochio wrote:
So does that mean other e-sports related game companies just don't care? obviously if it is intellectual property infringement, they have the choice to pursue the offenders.. but for example, I don't recall hearing any issues with counterstrike 1.6 or source related issues. 1.6 is huge in the international scene. However, starcraft broadcasting in korea is admittedly on another level.
There have been a lot, a lot of issues with Valve demanding a lot of money for licenses and refusing to give licenses for 1.6 in favor of CSS for a long time. I can tell you there's definitely similar policies in place there.
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The rights to content created at events is always a difficult subject. Many of the BW tournaments in Asia have rather complex contractual agreements when it comes to broadcasting. That's all I can really say about the subject. I have in the past been warned by my peers to avoid commentating on games from particular tournaments due to rights infringement.
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To shed some more light on the Kespa situation that keeps coming up in this discussion.
Early on when BW was really getting going in Korea, Kespa was the broadcasting powerhouse and had all the cards for a variety of reasons.
Blizzard felt that they deserved a piece of the pie and some authority over it since it was their game.
Kespa would not play ball so Blizzard decided to back/create GomTv I think it was called, as a competitor to Kespa. Kespa used it political influences to basically have GomTv killed, thus preventing Blizzard from getting into the cookie jar.
Blizzard is now negotiating from a place of power in regards to SC2 in order to make an example of Kespa. Blizzard has basically decided to say from the get go, this is my show and this is how its going to be.
Blizzard is very interested in esports, and it seems as long as they are kept in the loop and have the option of saying no, they are happy for now.
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On May 11 2010 20:29 Nyovne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 20:27 MarCoon wrote:
Yes, you gotta ask for permission if you want to do a tournament in the beta, but I don't know if they will keep it when the actual game is released. Offcourse they will.
Can Blizzard legally prevent someone from hosting a non-profit tournament of a game (thats not in beta)? Personally, I find that hard to believe. Can blizzard really tell a bunch of guys that bought their game that they can't play each other by using a bracket system?
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On May 12 2010 09:12 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2010 20:29 Nyovne wrote:On May 11 2010 20:27 MarCoon wrote:
Yes, you gotta ask for permission if you want to do a tournament in the beta, but I don't know if they will keep it when the actual game is released. Offcourse they will. Can Blizzard legally prevent someone from hosting a non-profit tournament of a game (thats not in beta)? Personally, I find that hard to believe. Can blizzard really tell a bunch of guys that bought their game that they can't play each other by using a bracket system?
Read those little things that come up every time the game updates. You don't own anything when it comes to SC2. You pay that $60 but you have to play on Blizzard's terms, or not at all.
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Dew is correct, Blizz owns it all, including your account.
Would Blizz prevent 16 friends from doing a tournament where no money is involved? No
If you are spamming about a cash prize tournament all over the place and do not get permission from their esports team, then yes they can and indeed have stopped it.
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I don't think they have legal recourse to stop you from running a tournament, but they have control of their trademarks and probably any public display of their product. However, they now have the technical ability to stop you from running any tournaments by forcing everyone to play only on Battle.net (and it would be within their legal rights to do so).
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On May 12 2010 10:52 Gibybo wrote:
I don't think they have legal recourse to stop you from running a tournament, but they have control of their trademarks and probably any public display of their product. However, they now have the technical ability to stop you from running any tournaments by forcing everyone to play only on Battle.net (and it would be within their legal rights to do so).
I think this sounds more accurate. I really dont think blizz can stop a tournament thats non-profit (this is different than cash prize. A tournament can still be cash prize but the organizers could make no profit off it, as most console game lan tournaments are) , they just MIGHT be able to stop it from being streamed. You guys talking about the EULA know that EULA is not [completely] legally binding right?
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You could just not call it a tournament and just call it a series of friendly matches with money on the line 
But then broadcasting it would raise some eyebrows.
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On May 12 2010 12:42 Zeke50100 wrote:You could just not call it a tournament and just call it a series of friendly matches with money on the line But then broadcasting it would raise some eyebrows.
I don't see something like this working with a legitimate corporation working with bigname sponsors like Intel, AMD, and the works... I have some things planned that I don't want to mention pre-maturely.
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On May 12 2010 12:42 Zeke50100 wrote:You could just not call it a tournament and just call it a series of friendly matches with money on the line But then broadcasting it would raise some eyebrows.
I also would think that you have to worry about gambling laws. Having a cash tourny without sponsors and for profit is essentially illegal gambling in most states. So as far as a blizzard approval, they have a legal department and I know I don't so approval could be, to some small degree, for user safety.
Terrible run on.
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Hi,
I'm actually organising a StarCraft 2 tournament with a sponsor called VISTA.
We have emailed to Blizzard (sc-tourneyinfo@blizzard.com) with the details thats listed in this topic earlier.
I like to ask how long does it take to get permission and usually, is it a problem?
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What blizzard wants to enforce via an eula vs. what the courts will allow can be 2 totally separate things. Just because blizzard puts something in an eula doesn't make it enforceable. The last Korean rewrite is a perfect example.
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yeah, I'm going to be bothered forever by the ability for you to create unique content using the game and that content being blizzard's property.
Since when is the license to install and use without tampering and selling it again mean that they own the labor of the players playing the game?
But what can I say, I'm just a farmer who thinks buying a product from someone to make it into a different product to sell to someone else is just the natural order of things
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It is interesting to note that EULAs have been getting some heat lately, because all contracts should/ must have the option to negotiate. EULAs are long and sometimes "excessively" complex. Unfortunately I havn't heard about a ruling either way yet.
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Only in Korea, so far.
The Korean FTC apparently agrees with the people posting in this thread. Blizz does not own player content there anymore. There's a thread here on TL about it.
As for broadcasting...I'm going to just have to repeat what has been said before - what Blizzard asserts and "enforces" in the EULA and what is legally enforceable via a court of law are two different areas.
It would be nice if one of the people who has done this before, i.e. HD, TotalBiscuit, to name two who have posted in this thread, would give some relevant info in this thread besides "yes we had to do it."
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Katowice25012 Posts
On May 11 2010 21:31 zatic wrote:
Just like has been said, you need a license from Blizzard to run broadcasted tournaments. So far for the Beta this has been no problem.
This was also the case with SCBW btw and is not something new.
There is no official Blizzard documentation I am aware of.
To drive this point home further, we at TL have not received any documentation that is contrary to this. Who knows what will happen in the future, but for now really nothing has changed.
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Do you know what would be the shit lol... Starcraft 2 on satellite radio.
Psionic Radio
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Right now it appears you, practically speaking, need to get permission from Blizzard.
However, there are at least 2 issues in play:
1) breach of EULA/TOS; and
2) breach of copyright law.
It's a complicated thing. It (1) is a contracts law issue and (2) is a US federal law issue. They are very different bodies of law.
I don't know the ultimate answer. I don't think anyone does. How much control can Blizzard keep? Well, it mostly depends, realistically, on how much they can bully challengers into submission based on having jillions more dollars to spend on lawsuits.
How much can they control things in a world where everyone has equal availability to challenge their EULA and invoke US copyright law to argue games played are separate works that they don't control? Who knows.
There's a big difference between what "Blizzard allows" and what, at the end of the day, the law says. Blizzard gets to control the game because they're the bully with the money. That's the way most of the law works.
(preemptively -- I am a US IP lawyer in silicon valley and know some things about the relevant law in play. Although I know nothing in particular about Activision/Blizzard in specific.)
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On June 26 2010 18:11 cucumber wrote:
Right now it appears you, practically speaking, need to get permission from Blizzard.
However, there are at least 2 issues in play:
1) breach of EULA/TOS; and
2) breach of copyright law.
It's a complicated thing. It (1) is a contracts law issue and (2) is a US federal law issue. They are very different bodies of law.
I don't know the ultimate answer. I don't think anyone does. How much control can Blizzard keep? Well, it mostly depends, realistically, on how much they can bully challengers into submission based on having jillions more dollars to spend on lawsuits.
How much can they control things in a world where everyone has equal availability to challenge their EULA and invoke US copyright law to argue games played are separate works that they don't control? Who knows.
There's a big difference between what "Blizzard allows" and what, at the end of the day, the law says. Blizzard gets to control the game because they're the bully with the money. That's the way most of the law works.
(preemptively -- I am a US IP lawyer in silicon valley and know some things about the relevant law in play. Although I know nothing in particular about Activision/Blizzard in specific.)
I welcome any further analysis or comments you have on this issue if you decide to make a more detailed look at the EULA etc. Not often I see "I am a lawyer"; usually it's "I am not a lawyer!!!" ^^
Thanks for joining in.
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When the beta comes back I'll pay attention to the EULA/TOS before agreeing and make some comments. (yes, IAAL, but I'm not your lawyer and I will be giving generic thoughts not legal advice .... (we have to say these things))
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EPT
