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Terrans the weakest race you say? It's not good enough to win tournaments?
Hmm, why does this sound familiar, Like something we heard a long time ago?
I guess you could say this is history repeating itself. Of course that means the successor to the Terran Emperor should be around ere somewhere.
In all seriousness, nothing terran has is weak. No unit is on the "do not make!" list or even feels like it's on the "weak" I do believe it's merely a matter of people figuring things out. Terran seem to have the tools, they just need a master craftsman. In my opinion of course.
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On May 09 2010 15:37 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 10:59 Legendary- wrote:
DeMusliM - 1st place, SC2 Beta Zotac Cup #4
MorroW - 1st place, SC2 Beta CraftCup #1
Jinro - 1st place, SC2 Beta CraftCup #6
LucifroN - 1st place, ESL TV Pro Invite Cup 1st, place Go4SC2_ESL March
I probably missed a few more. Most of the top players DO compete in craftcups and zotac cups, so just because they aren't "invite" tournaments, doesn't make it any less significant (besides the fact that they might have an "easy" first few rounds vs randoms).
Those are first places from quite a few patches ago, probably before the concussive upgrade. Any RECENT first places?
That's pretty disappointing, if top European Terran players are struggling to win. The top US Terran players are also not winning the US tourneys.
As for Morrow, he already posted his view on page 1 of this thread and I encourage people to read his response - especially people that cited him as a top European Terran player.
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On May 09 2010 11:18 BigDates wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 10:49 MorroW wrote:
to answer OP's hidden question:
yes, terran is the worst race at the moment but its becoming better every patch I think TvZ nearly guarentees a win for a T as long as he plays mech over MMM ATM, unless the Z gets broodlords, But, T can end it before 20 minutes in fairly easily. Actually, Marauders do more DPS even against Hydras, than hydras do back with stim, and with medivacs, they get healed super-fast, not to mention, you can get effectively more than a 1:1 ratio of the amount of marauders on 1 base vs a 1 base zerg (half gas cost, mineral cost not as relevent, seeing as Z will always be at a gas deficency while making mutas, as terran wont be) Not to mention they have the amor, and have over 1.5 X the amount of HP as a hydra. Not to mention, they hardcounter Ultras, and roaches just as well, which is why a zerg player would be crazy to get any ultralisks in their current state vs a T player. Show nested quote +
if you look at terran production, they have it the worst.
every zerg unit is built through the hatchery
every protoss unit is built through gateway/robo
Terran can also constantly be pumping out SCV's all game risk-free, as zerg has to carefully decide to drone-up, or get units.
Zerg had to be careful with their larva usage in BW yes. But with larvae injection its not that big of a deal. And pure mmm are pretty bad against hidra-ling-roach.
So yes i agree with you Terran has to go mech or bio-mech, its much stronger, but thats not a problem by any means (its a relief actually, that the game has more than 3 viable units...).
And Cauthonluck was simply outplayed by Slush.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On May 09 2010 14:05 Skyze wrote:
Demuslim is the Idra of War3, and he just complains all day rather than trying to find strats to actually win.
Look at better terrans like Lucifron, BRAT_OK, they never complain "wahh protoss is unbeatable"..
Morrow is another guy who complains all day, esp on BW remember him always being the one to say terran sucked.
There isnt a problem when the true top terrans arent bitching and moaning like the rest. when I hear BRAT_OK and Lucifron say Terran has no chance vs Zerg or Protoss, only THEN will I may take stock into this stupid argument, but until then, and watching them win so many games with Terran.
That's pretty fucking funny considering when Demuslim and Lucifron met in the Razer Domination quarter finals, half the matches they played were PvP, half PvT (one each) and one TvT.
Oh and Demuslim won 3-2.
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all zerg needs to do is sit on his ass, play solid and macro, while terran needs to pull off a miracle with harass to stand a chance in mid/late game, theres barely any chance in straight up game. Considering that gameplay developed to the points zergs already figured out solid openings which stop most of the cheesy stuff from terran yea its hard as fuck for T to win vs good Z macro player....
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On May 09 2010 19:50 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 14:05 Skyze wrote:
Demuslim is the Idra of War3, and he just complains all day rather than trying to find strats to actually win.
Look at better terrans like Lucifron, BRAT_OK, they never complain "wahh protoss is unbeatable"..
Morrow is another guy who complains all day, esp on BW remember him always being the one to say terran sucked.
There isnt a problem when the true top terrans arent bitching and moaning like the rest. when I hear BRAT_OK and Lucifron say Terran has no chance vs Zerg or Protoss, only THEN will I may take stock into this stupid argument, but until then, and watching them win so many games with Terran. That's pretty fucking funny considering when Demuslim and Lucifron met in the Razer Domination quarter finals, half the matches they played were PvP, half PvT (one each) and one TvT. Oh and Demuslim won 3-2.
That can also mean 1 of them is not comfortable in T mirror^^.
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On May 09 2010 19:59 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 19:50 FrozenArbiter wrote:On May 09 2010 14:05 Skyze wrote:
Demuslim is the Idra of War3, and he just complains all day rather than trying to find strats to actually win.
Look at better terrans like Lucifron, BRAT_OK, they never complain "wahh protoss is unbeatable"..
Morrow is another guy who complains all day, esp on BW remember him always being the one to say terran sucked.
There isnt a problem when the true top terrans arent bitching and moaning like the rest. when I hear BRAT_OK and Lucifron say Terran has no chance vs Zerg or Protoss, only THEN will I may take stock into this stupid argument, but until then, and watching them win so many games with Terran. That's pretty fucking funny considering when Demuslim and Lucifron met in the Razer Domination quarter finals, half the matches they played were PvP, half PvT (one each) and one TvT. Oh and Demuslim won 3-2. That can also mean 1 of them is not comfortable in T mirror^^.
no that means neither of them wanted to play TvP thats why they ended up playing pvp
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On May 09 2010 19:50 FrozenArbiter wrote:
That's pretty fucking funny considering when Demuslim and Lucifron met in the Razer Domination quarter finals, half the matches they played were PvP, half PvT (one each) and one TvT.
Oh and Demuslim won 3-2.
This is consistent with what teekesselchen said about DeMuslim on page 3:
Take a proper view at DeMuslim. He plays terran. He is succesful. And he switches to protoss occasionally because he says T cannot win on P.
I find it very disturbing that top European Terran players are switching to Protoss in their tourneys. There is something broken there, and it's not the player.
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sc1 was overall t>z z>p and p>t. i never said terran was the worst race, i just said it was the hardest in sc1 and thats the truth. u cant say demuslim didnt try everything. ive seen these terrans do just about everything and losing miserably so stop trolling this thread with lies please t.t
also flash is an exception. hes a fucking wonderkid thats better than all other human on this planet at rts games xd
On May 09 2010 15:37 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 10:59 Legendary- wrote:
DeMusliM - 1st place, SC2 Beta Zotac Cup #4
MorroW - 1st place, SC2 Beta CraftCup #1
Jinro - 1st place, SC2 Beta CraftCup #6
LucifroN - 1st place, ESL TV Pro Invite Cup 1st, place Go4SC2_ESL March
I probably missed a few more. Most of the top players DO compete in craftcups and zotac cups, so just because they aren't "invite" tournaments, doesn't make it any less significant (besides the fact that they might have an "easy" first few rounds vs randoms).
Those are first places from quite a few patches ago, probably before the concussive upgrade. Any RECENT first places? Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 10:49 MorroW wrote:
to answer OP's hidden question:
yes, terran is the worst race at the moment but its becoming better every patch With the changes to the Thor in patch 11 (shifting more AA damage to vs light and not being able to one-shot workers / Zerglings anymore) I dont think the unit got improved. More shots really make a unit weaker when the armor upgrades are counted more often. So I think patch 11 was a nice nerf. IdrA just Neural Parasited 3 Ravens from Joseki and thats not an improvement for the Terran either after patch 11. Allowing mind control on air units is a bad idea IMO, because its just too easy to take over very expensive units. Zerg with Mothership is just ridiculous ... and even taking over a few Medivacs sounds pretty useful for a Zerg, so a standard unit of Terrans is very vulnerable to this Zerg ability all of a sudden.
ah no u got it all wrong. i dont think t got buffed this patch because of the stats change. i think t got buffed alot in tvz because of the splash dmges being more accurate and improved. that didnt change tvp at all tho. also the broodlord isnt gonna dominate late game so much. vikings can actually snipe them now without dying to hydra while trying because it takes 3 less shots now.
but tvp got better because of the sentry nerf. so this patch tvz got much easier than tvp got
also ravens suck. if u build them u deserve to lose 
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If PvT is so broken, why doesn't Nazgul and Whitera win every EU tourney? =)
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i find thors to be way worse vs mutalisk with current splash system tho ....
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On May 09 2010 20:39 Whalecore wrote:
If PvT is so broken, why doesn't Nazgul and Whitera win every EU tourney? =)
maybe because there is also THIRD RACE.
on more serious note, guys you can't just compare unit vs. unit etc. Some people here compare zerg 1 base vs terran 1 base, marauder vs hydra and that's ridicoulus. You really have to look at things more globally, especially race mechanics.
People often think that terran has counter to everything, yea, that's true but how often can you make all that units? It's like saying to protoss player to build carriers to counter marauders.
Maybe it's still low knowledge of game etc, but situation isn't that good for terran anyway. BUT game is only at HALF OF BETA, we will see so many changes till the release and I really believe it will be only better. Look at patch notes and you'll see how many things is already changed and fixed.
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I do remember Brood War having a weak Terran in the beginning That, until Boxer arrived.
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On May 09 2010 20:38 MorroW wrote:
ah no u got it all wrong. i dont think t got buffed this patch because of the stats change. i think t got buffed alot in tvz because of the splash dmges being more accurate and improved. that didnt change tvp at all tho. also the broodlord isnt gonna dominate late game so much. vikings can actually snipe them now without dying to hydra while trying because it takes 3 less shots now.
but tvp got better because of the sentry nerf. so this patch tvz got much easier than tvp got
Thanks for reminding me about that change, I didnt think the impact was that huge.
On May 09 2010 20:38 MorroW wrote:also ravens suck. if u build them u deserve to lose
Well sadly IdrA is one of those Zerg who still researches burrow and burrowed Roach movement, so you kinda have to suck and get a Raven for your advancing army as a Terran or lose easily to them popping up right next to you. Sadly he also can afford the research for Neural Parasite, but then IdrA had to complain about the missing Seeker Missile upgrade ... 
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I don't think T knows exactly what to transition from after MMM when it starts to fall apart after Infestors show up. FG is pretty devastating against MMM and NP makes Thors and BCs pretty hard to do.
I think the key will eventually be tanks and drop play in some way shape or form.
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I think that in general, terran units are more disparse.
Looking at barracks for example, I believe it should be something like this:
Marine: Staple
Marauder: anti heavy ground
Reaper: anti light
Ghost: anti caster / supportive unit
But it's more like this:
Marine: Panic anti air
Marauder: Staple
Reaper: anti worker
Ghost: anti protoss
Compared to the gateway units which are staples throughout the entire game, ghosts are for example extremely underwhelming when compared to the sentry overall (due to the latter being ridiculously good in all three matchups), and marines have too many hard counters in midgame. I personally believe that marauders are too good for what they cost. I could imagine a gas cost nerf if the shortcomings of other units were looked over. Siege tank for example, is not a viable option seeing as it costs 5x as much gas.
To even make terran units available, each construction building needs expensive add ons with little or no extra function; in other words, falls short to warp gates or how hatcheries functions, which also means terran got the short end of the stick when it comes to being able to tech swap and get the proper counter units out.
This is of course on top of terran's inferior map control, detection ability and scouting. Furthermore, zerg is way better than terran at recovering. I've seen too many games when terran or protoss opened with extreme harassment on the zerg, that which should be impossible to recover from, zerg came back and won (machine's 0 hatch come back vs inca is a prominent example); something I can't remember seeing a terran do.
At least, that's how I interpret the terran situation.
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On May 09 2010 21:12 Shiragaku wrote:
I do remember Brood War having a weak Terran in the beginning That, until Boxer arrived.
that, and until p1.08 arrived.
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Sweden33723 Posts
also ravens suck. if u build them u deserve to lose
Why do the keep nerfing it 
It's still spectacular TvT for PDDrone, but the Hunter Seeker Missile wasn't even imbalanced when it did bugged-100% splash or whatever it did in patch 1.
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On May 09 2010 21:39 FrozenArbiter wrote:Why do the keep nerfing it It's still spectacular TvT for PDDrone, but the Hunter Seeker Missile wasn't even imbalanced when it did bugged-100% splash or whatever it did in patch 1.
well the "nerfed" the splash because it was a mistake on their side to make it so "strong" in the first place
and now they nerf it more because "mass ravens in 2x2 was too strong"
raven is absoltely useless in tvt and frankly i dont even think u know how to play that mu man :p thor marauder medeivac isnt how u do it lol
some ppl say PDD is great to stop dmg like stalker and hydra but toss dmg output lies in storm and colosus while zerg can simply just snipe the PDDs
Doomgaze - thats a pretty damn good analysis imo
On May 09 2010 21:12 Shiragaku wrote:
I do remember Brood War having a weak Terran in the beginning That, until Boxer arrived.
im wasnt around by that time but i can imagine boxer winning by higher apm harassment and micro managment
in sc2 everyone got fast hands already and the macro+micro is much easier
the only person who could "revolutionize" sc2 would be with strategy bos and gameplay rather than micro and tactics imo
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Right now i think that Terran gameplay still needs to evolve to compete with the current styles of other top users of other races.
I couldn't agree more with the end of morrow's last post.
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EPT
