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On May 09 2010 13:36 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 12:28 yoshi_yoshi wrote:
It sucks when a small change of events could bring down your whole argument. Like... have 2 of the final 4 in TODAY's TLI be T. FYI, I saw that tourney. Did you see the semi-finals, the finals, and the 3rd place match? Because if you did, you would know that Louder struggled against Slush, and even a half-awake Huk beat Louder. As for Cauthon, he played solid games against Slush and even the commentators admitted they didn't know what more Cauthon could do.
Thats bullshit, Louder played quite bad today esp vs Huk.. that cant be used as an argument. I mean, he even threw away a game once his 2reaper rush failed. Dont use that as your argument, but the fact that Terran represented 50% of the finals today is a better stat. I also seen Slush vs Cauthon, and Cauthon made lots of mistakes that could of been fixed to win him the games, the commentators must not know shit all about SC2 then if they said that, which I didnt hear.
Again, your stats have no basis, esp in the US server. Its not about racial imbalance, its about whos playing the games. I still think that if Nony was terran, we would all be having this argument about Protoss.. because Nony is the top TALENT player outside of Europe/Asia right now without question, and him playing protoss has NOTHING to do with his success. He would be the top US player regardless of his race, even Random.
But of course, Terrans need to always cry about something. I guess 5 years of SC1 complete dominance with Boxer, Nada, iloveoov, then these past 3 years splitting time at the top with Jaedong counts for nothing. When has Protoss ever been at the top, besides the 6 months of Bisu?? Exactly, never.
I wish the US server had someone like Lucifron to come and show the US people how insane terran can be when used properly. And you never hear Lucifron saying "wahh terran sucks". He just keeps owning and taking names. The only one above of Lucifron is White-ra, and again that is based on SKILL/TALENT, not the race White-ra is playing.
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On May 09 2010 11:32 SuperXlax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 11:24 ghostnuke1234 wrote:On May 09 2010 11:03 NATO wrote:
Most of the players in the end of the TL invitational for US today were Terran. Cauthon taking 2nd place to a zerg. The toss players were eliminated pretty quickly. So I turn this around on you : when have toss done good in a "significant tourney"? Huk, Huk, Huk. Need I mention more? He said "significant tourney", even put it in nice quotes for you. :X
Yes, and Huk has won in tourneys that I consider to be a "significant tourney." For example, the Gosu Coaching tourney has all the top players competing - Kiwikaki, Sheth, QXC, Huk, Idra, etc. The final has been Sheth and Huk multiple times. The last final was Idra and Huk.
How come QXC, Cauthon, Kawaiirice, or other top Terran players never make it to the finals?
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On May 09 2010 13:48 teekesselchen wrote:
Take a proper view at DeMuslim. He plays terran. He is succesful. And he switches to protoss occasionally because he says T cannot win on P.
^^^
QFT.
LOL at all those that quoted DeMuslim as a top Terran player that is bucking the trend!
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I'm curious to find out (possibly from the players themselves) why there is not much more mech usage by terran players. I've watched a ton of cauthon luck games, and in tvz he seems to always go some sort of reaper/hellion/banshee/viking or some combination of harass into mass bio every time he plays zerg. Avilo had that great post about how to go ghost mech as well as the raven opening that's pretty popular seemingly with good korean terrans, yet I still have yet to see any high level terran players try it in tourneys. I saw louder today try early marauder strat vs HuK, only to lose to void rays (which seems pretty common nowadays), and the next game he tried to 6 or 7 rax reaper proxy him (when has that ever worked against a competent protoss player?). I'm not trying to lambast these guys, but I'm puzzled as to the lack of mech play in these tournament games.
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what about brat_OK? (i know he's not on US servers) i'm just talking terrans who seem to win A LOT
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On May 09 2010 13:54 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 13:48 teekesselchen wrote:
Take a proper view at DeMuslim. He plays terran. He is succesful. And he switches to protoss occasionally because he says T cannot win on P.
^^^ QFT. LOL at all those that quoted DeMuslim as a top Terran player that is bucking the trend!
Well with that mind set yes he will always struggle with protoss ^^.
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On May 09 2010 13:57 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 13:54 ghostnuke1234 wrote:On May 09 2010 13:48 teekesselchen wrote:
Take a proper view at DeMuslim. He plays terran. He is succesful. And he switches to protoss occasionally because he says T cannot win on P.
^^^ QFT. LOL at all those that quoted DeMuslim as a top Terran player that is bucking the trend! Well with that mind set yes he will always struggle with protoss ^^.
And I think you should read Morrow's post, whom some have already cited as being a top Terran from Europe. Since you are too lazy to read through this thread, here is Morrow's response from page 1:
Morrow wrote:
i think its really ignorant of u ppl to actually say that the zerg users r doing better because they r better. its impossible to say whos better because its so damn imba and the maps r just as big in the role
i think we all should just assume that the terrans practice as much as the zergs, which is probably true and i think its also statistically proven that zergs has been winning with standard non-innovative strats such as roach hydra against crazy bos with tons of "brilliant" transitioning from terran
(go back to page 1 to view Morrow's complete response)
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Demuslim is the Idra of War3, and he just complains all day rather than trying to find strats to actually win.
Look at better terrans like Lucifron, BRAT_OK, they never complain "wahh protoss is unbeatable"..
Morrow is another guy who complains all day, esp on BW remember him always being the one to say terran sucked.
There isnt a problem when the true top terrans arent bitching and moaning like the rest. when I hear BRAT_OK and Lucifron say Terran has no chance vs Zerg or Protoss, only THEN will I may take stock into this stupid argument, but until then, and watching them win so many games with Terran.
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On May 09 2010 14:04 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 13:57 blade55555 wrote:On May 09 2010 13:54 ghostnuke1234 wrote:On May 09 2010 13:48 teekesselchen wrote:
Take a proper view at DeMuslim. He plays terran. He is succesful. And he switches to protoss occasionally because he says T cannot win on P.
^^^ QFT. LOL at all those that quoted DeMuslim as a top Terran player that is bucking the trend! Well with that mind set yes he will always struggle with protoss ^^. And I think you should read Morrow's post, whom some have already cited as being a top Terran from Europe. Since you are too lazy to read through this thread, here is Morrow's response from page 1: Show nested quote +Morrow wrote:
i think its really ignorant of u ppl to actually say that the zerg users r doing better because they r better. its impossible to say whos better because its so damn imba and the maps r just as big in the role
i think we all should just assume that the terrans practice as much as the zergs, which is probably true and i think its also statistically proven that zergs has been winning with standard non-innovative strats such as roach hydra against crazy bos with tons of "brilliant" transitioning from terran (go back to page 1 to view Morrow's complete response)
Dunno what that had to do with my post idc what morrow thinks his opinion doesn't = fact thank you.
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On May 09 2010 13:47 ghostnuke1234 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 13:26 KiLL_ORdeR wrote:
we need a system to be put in place that says "I'm a newbie and don't know jack about Starcraft, or anything for that matter." in the beggining of posts and threads, when that is in fact the case.
The fact of the matter is that Terran has the potential to be the most powerful and versatile race in the game if you know how to use them, which nobody does because nobody has played enough games.
That's just insulting to players like Cauthon, QXC, LZGamer, Kawaiirice, and other top Terran players.
who's that insulting? do you realize how many thousands of games it takes to be good at an RTS? This is why we need a tag that say"I'm a newbie and don't know jack about Startcraft." Ask any good player and I guarantee that they will tell you that they need hundreds more games to even consider themselves moderately skilled. Being good relative to the competition, doesn't make you a good player. I can log onto B.net right now and ruin 90% of the kids in BW, or go to a youth soccer game and make all of those kids look like garbage, but that doesn't make me a good player at either of those games, it just means that i am more experienced and technically stronger than players who haven't played as much. Same thing here.
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On May 09 2010 14:06 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 13:57 blade55555 wrote:On May 09 2010 13:54 ghostnuke1234 wrote:On May 09 2010 13:48 teekesselchen wrote:
Take a proper view at DeMuslim. He plays terran. He is succesful. And he switches to protoss occasionally because he says T cannot win on P.
^^^ QFT. LOL at all those that quoted DeMuslim as a top Terran player that is bucking the trend! Well with that mind set yes he will always struggle with protoss ^^. Artosis says P is imba in Sc1. Flash is on a ten game streak in PvT. T was poor early in SC1 too. Now T is super strong. Crying imbalance is not the solution. Try different things, then think about calling imba. Also, where are your 6+ Platinum reps? You need those for imbalance proof. Everything else is baseless whining.
I didn't say anything about imbalance... Unless you meant to quote the person I quoted I never said anything about T being too strong I am saying that with that mind set he will always struggle against protoss...
Now if you meant the guy I quoted then ignore my post.
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On May 09 2010 14:08 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 14:06 stormtemplar wrote:On May 09 2010 13:57 blade55555 wrote:On May 09 2010 13:54 ghostnuke1234 wrote:On May 09 2010 13:48 teekesselchen wrote:
Take a proper view at DeMuslim. He plays terran. He is succesful. And he switches to protoss occasionally because he says T cannot win on P.
^^^ QFT. LOL at all those that quoted DeMuslim as a top Terran player that is bucking the trend! Well with that mind set yes he will always struggle with protoss ^^. Artosis says P is imba in Sc1. Flash is on a ten game streak in PvT. T was poor early in SC1 too. Now T is super strong. Crying imbalance is not the solution. Try different things, then think about calling imba. Also, where are your 6+ Platinum reps? You need those for imbalance proof. Everything else is baseless whining. I didn't say anything about imbalance... Unless you meant to quote the person I quoted I never said anything about T being too strong I am saying that with that mind set he will always struggle against protoss... Now if you meant the guy I quoted then ignore my post.
He's talking about the OP. This is an imbalance (cry) thread hidden under the guise of "tell me all the tourneys Terran has won *crycry* According to forum rules, OP needs 8+ high plat level replays for this shit thread. Iunno why it's not closed.
This thread is bullshit. You see just as many, if not more, Terrans winning or placing in high level tourneys as you see Protoss and none of the Protoss players have made a *crycry* protoss wins no tourney imba! threads.
If you go to the liquipedia article on invitational tourneys you'll see that Protoss has won ZERO invitational tourneys, while Terran won one and Zerg swept the rest. If you look at tourneys like CraftCup, the past winners have been Zerg, Terran, and Protoss and the spread is pretty even between Protoss and Terran. Zerg wins the vast majority of tournaments.
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Zerg wins the vast majority of tournaments.
I agree that zerg is imba, and toss not so much. Toss is almost balanced, but still terran is a bit worse then toss and much worse then zerg.
1st of all blink range bug shd be fixed, btw.
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On May 09 2010 10:59 Legendary- wrote:
DeMusliM - 1st place, SC2 Beta Zotac Cup #4
MorroW - 1st place, SC2 Beta CraftCup #1
Jinro - 1st place, SC2 Beta CraftCup #6
LucifroN - 1st place, ESL TV Pro Invite Cup 1st, place Go4SC2_ESL March
I probably missed a few more. Most of the top players DO compete in craftcups and zotac cups, so just because they aren't "invite" tournaments, doesn't make it any less significant (besides the fact that they might have an "easy" first few rounds vs randoms).
Those are first places from quite a few patches ago, probably before the concussive upgrade. Any RECENT first places?
On May 09 2010 10:49 MorroW wrote:
to answer OP's hidden question:
yes, terran is the worst race at the moment but its becoming better every patch
With the changes to the Thor in patch 11 (shifting more AA damage to vs light and not being able to one-shot workers / Zerglings anymore) I dont think the unit got improved. More shots really make a unit weaker when the armor upgrades are counted more often. So I think patch 11 was a nice nerf.
IdrA just Neural Parasited 3 Ravens from Joseki and thats not an improvement for the Terran either after patch 11. Allowing mind control on air units is a bad idea IMO, because its just too easy to take over very expensive units. Zerg with Mothership is just ridiculous ... and even taking over a few Medivacs sounds pretty useful for a Zerg, so a standard unit of Terrans is very vulnerable to this Zerg ability all of a sudden.
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SC1 does not have 33% of each race in the top ranks.
The strategy of the game is not complete. I would like to see more hellion drops, more drops usage (you have medivacs already! Free dropships!), more tanks (I have trouble stopping them as P... even with immortals), more ravens, more hellions (they rape zealots), etc.
2 weeks ago I made a thread about Proper Phoenix Use. It starts with people saying they suck and do not try it. One week later, Nony shows his phoenix build, now they are imbalanced according to some people (even before patch 11). The point is, there is so much not being done in the game it's crazy. You don't think the standard strategies work? Then why use them! Show us your magic. We need innovation first.
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There's a reason so many top koreans are using Zerg. If I had to guess, with the game's current state, you won't see Terran win a single tournament anytime soon.
The multi-hatch selection and inject larvae mechanics make macroing zerg a cakewalk and you can spam 4sh while doing just about anything. Single composition armies aren't nearly as effective with Terran and you must constantly be pumping MMM+Ravens or whatever to maintain an even match with zerg massing hydra alone. If the zerg actually does throw in some infestors and other units that require micro... it's game over.
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On May 09 2010 15:44 rackdude wrote:
SC1 does not have 33% of each race in the top ranks.
The strategy of the game is not complete. I would like to see more hellion drops, more drops usage (you have medivacs already! Free dropships!), more tanks (I have trouble stopping them as P... even with immortals), more ravens, more hellions (they rape zealots), etc.
2 weeks ago I made a thread about Proper Phoenix Use. It starts with people saying they suck and do not try it. One week later, Nony shows his phoenix build, now they are imbalanced according to some people (even before patch 11). The point is, there is so much not being done in the game it's crazy. You don't think the standard strategies work? Then why use them! Show us your magic. We need innovation first.
I have to agree with you on requesting more innovation, but the Terran army is pretty limited in mid-late game. This is true due to some simple non-unit-related facts: they cant switch up their tech as fast as the other two races can ... Marines or Marauders only change the style in a small amount, but Zealot or Stalker or Sentry is a big difference for a Protoss. The Protoss also have Chrono Boost and can rush their production from a new tech building if they decide to switch.
Zerg on the other hand only need one new builing for a completely new unit and a tech switch, whereas Terrans need to build LOTS of Starports (even several in a row before the facility can be used at top capacity) if they want to switch from ground to air. This makes them really slow. Added to this is the fact that defensive structures are not that great against the tight balls of ground troops who are able to apply a maximum amount of dps with a minimum of attack space.
Upgrades play a big role as well and Terrans have three groups to upgrade: Infantry, Mech, Air. This makes any big tech switch hurt a lot and adds to the racial disadvantage of Terrans. If some players are good enough to overcome this it it doesnt mean the disadvantage isnt there. Sadly the "Terran Turtle" has a very soft shell and is impossible as a serious way to go.
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The thing is that the "Terran key characteristic" (from BW) of having an immobile army is made pointless not by the fact that the sieged tanks get outmaneuvered by more mobile tactics (warping in behind the siege line or Nydussing around), but rather they simply get overrun by the opposition. Being immobile doesnt really give these Terran units any big advantage, so it ends up being a disadvantage most of the time. That is one of the reasons why Tanks arent used as much in SC2 now ...
If Blizzard could be persuaded to buff the defensive values of Terrans we could actually have the slow turtling style back. Just having one +2 armor upgrade for buildings isnt enough to make up a difference, but something along that line might actually work and it would be simple enough. Another idea might be to have some remains of Mech units salvageable (but destructible!) for Terrans to give them a slight push towards the Mech style of play.
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EPT
