EPTTerran tourney wins? - Page 6
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lew
Belgium205 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
raven is absoltely useless in tvt and frankly i dont even think u know how to play that mu man thor marauder medeivac isnt how u do it lol They rape in air battles, they rape in marauder vs marauder battles, they rape in thor vs thor battles. PDDrones are good. End of story, I'm not even gonna debate this ;p 100 mana to block 20+ shots? Yes plz. I don't play thor/marauder/medivac anyway  Tank/viking/raven, maybe with thor first cause it's safe vs banshees so you can expo. | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On May 09 2010 22:12 ReachTheSky wrote: Right now i think that Terran gameplay still needs to evolve to compete with the current styles of other top users of other races. I couldn't agree more with the end of morrow's last post. It's much harder to revolutionize game play in general (for all three races) due to the hard counter system of SC2. I think there would be more options in terms of strategy if SC2 used a soft counter system similar to SC1, instead of having a situation where one unit in the Protoss tech tree (ie the Immortal) renders mech completely not viable for Terran. | ||
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
On May 09 2010 22:35 FrozenArbiter wrote: They rape in air battles, they rape in marauder vs marauder battles, they rape in thor vs thor battles. PDDrones are good. End of story, I'm not even gonna debate this ;p 100 mana to block 20+ shots? Yes plz. I don't play thor/marauder/medivac anyway Tank/viking/raven, maybe with thor first cause it's safe vs banshees so you can expo.they dont just block 20 shots. its not set in stone lets say ur 10 viking vs 10 viking + 1 PDD he can use first 10 shots to kill the PDD ezpz. the PDD can max destroy like 4 projectiles per game second or so | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
On May 09 2010 14:05 Skyze wrote: Demuslim is the Idra of War3, and he just complains all day rather than trying to find strats to actually win. Look at better terrans like Lucifron, BRAT_OK, they never complain "wahh protoss is unbeatable".. Morrow is another guy who complains all day, esp on BW remember him always being the one to say terran sucked. There isnt a problem when the true top terrans arent bitching and moaning like the rest. when I hear BRAT_OK and Lucifron say Terran has no chance vs Zerg or Protoss, only THEN will I may take stock into this stupid argument, but until then, and watching them win so many games with Terran. It's ignorance like this that frustrates me - just because Lucifron doesn't voice his opinion on a forum - doesn't mean he doesn't voice it. Lucifron told me he hated protoss before i even said anything, which is further backed up by the fact he went protoss vs my terran 2x and won 2-0, and then lost vs my protoss twice too.- And when i spoke to Brat about how to beat protoss, he said - "i don't ))". If complaining all day - rather than finding strats implies that i don't play/innovate/test enough or what ever - then how does the fact that i played protoss to beat several top players just completely deter that statement. - I played protoss just to proove to people the race was indeed too strong vs terran, and was too easy to play - hopefully patch 11 and onwards will help to solve that problem - as it's what every terran player feels, not just me. | ||
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lew
Belgium205 Posts
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
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ghostnuke1234
164 Posts
On May 09 2010 22:38 DeMusliM wrote: It's ignorance like this that frustrates me - just because Lucifron doesn't voice his opinion on a forum - doesn't mean he doesn't voice it. Lucifron told me he hated protoss before i even said anything, which is further backed up by the fact he went protoss vs my terran 2x and won 2-0, and then lost vs my protoss twice too.- And when i spoke to Brat about how to beat protoss, he said - "i don't ))". If complaining all day - rather than finding strats implies that i don't play/innovate/test enough or what ever - then how does the fact that i played protoss to beat several top players just completely deter that statement. - I played protoss just to proove to people the race was indeed too strong vs terran, and was too easy to play - hopefully patch 11 and onwards will help to solve that problem - as it's what every terran player feels, not just me. Glad to see DeMuslim add his two cents to this discussion. For all those that cited Morrow and DeMuslim as examples of top Terran players, please read their responses in this thread. It's clear that the failure of top Terran players to win is an obvious trend and it shouldn't be something that the community should treat lightly. | ||
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ghostnuke1234
164 Posts
On May 09 2010 22:57 Corvi wrote: demuslim, so what has to happen regarding tvp? i bet if you, luci, brat and other top terrans would go ahead and make some constructive critisism, blizz couldn't look away. It would also be nice for the other top US Terran players to give their feedback in this thread as well. | ||
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ghostnuke1234
164 Posts
On May 09 2010 22:38 DeMusliM wrote: It's ignorance like this that frustrates me - just because Lucifron doesn't voice his opinion on a forum - doesn't mean he doesn't voice it. Lucifron told me he hated protoss before i even said anything, which is further backed up by the fact he went protoss vs my terran 2x and won 2-0, and then lost vs my protoss twice too.- And when i spoke to Brat about how to beat protoss, he said - "i don't ))". Skyze, are you willing to revise your opinion now? No disrepsect Skyes, but you did come off as ignorant - and please, don't make further excuses now that you have heard what Lucrifon and Brat think. | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
PvT just seems as if protoss have the perfect counter to every terran composition if they play correctly. It starts from gateways providing a +2 armour to ranged, meaning marines do 3-4 damage per hit vs all gateway units, and marauders do 7-8 cutting dps to 3-4.66, so initially your behind. Later on your Mech is countered by the robotics bay/voidrays - and same with your air - countered by voidrays. I'm not sure what they can do about the matchup without interfering too much with the zvp/tvz. But it seems to be a prolonged problem that stemmed back from BW - that terran play is alot less forgiving for mistakes than that of the protoss in the PvT matchup. I just believe that in a few months (given if things stay the way they are) protoss players won't lose unless they mess up HUGELY vs terran players. | ||
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ghostnuke1234
164 Posts
On May 09 2010 23:08 DeMusliM wrote: I'm not sure what they can do about the matchup without interfering too much with the zvp/tvz. But it seems to be a prolonged problem that stemmed back from BW - that terran play is alot less forgiving for mistakes than that of the protoss in the PvT matchup. I just believe that in a few months (given if things stay the way they are) protoss players won't lose unless they mess up HUGELY vs terran players. When I first started this thread, I had an impression that something was not right at the top Terran level but I just wanted to confirm with the community. After hearing back from you and Morrow, it is clear there is a disturbing trend with top Terran players. I watch many of the US tourneys myself and time and time again, the top Terran players fall short. Neither QXC, Cauthon, LZGamer, Kawaiirice, and other top Terran players have managed to win their indvidual tournaments (this excludes team tourneys and showmatches). It would be nice to hear back from the top Terran US players as well. I'm guessing the top US Terran players face the same issues the top European Terran players face. | ||
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
On May 09 2010 23:08 DeMusliM wrote: Was just watching Jinro vs a protoss(who didn't play good) - and jinro almost lost ;S. PvT just seems as if protoss have the perfect counter to every terran composition if they play correctly. It starts from gateways providing a +2 armour to ranged, meaning marines do 3-4 damage per hit vs all gateway units, and marauders do 7-8 cutting dps to 3-4.66, so initially your behind. Later on your Mech is countered by the robotics bay/voidrays - and same with your air - countered by voidrays. I'm not sure what they can do about the matchup without interfering too much with the zvp/tvz. But it seems to be a prolonged problem that stemmed back from BW - that terran play is alot less forgiving for mistakes than that of the protoss in the PvT matchup. I just believe that in a few months (given if things stay the way they are) protoss players won't lose unless they mess up HUGELY vs terran players. well i have an idea, but i was always too afraid to make a thread, as i never seen an op asking for nerfs/buffs not getting flamed to death. and here it goes: make vikings light armored and reduce their dmg (at least the vs. ground one) a bit. thats it. what would change: 1. pure metal (if you count viking in) would get valid tvp, as you finally have a ground metal unit not getting totally destroyed by immortals. 2. vikings would do better vs. charged void rays and also are more likely to be played. so you have a viable bo that doesnt give you a big disadvantage when you got this one toss, who doesnt go void rays. 3. the dmg nerf has to be to make sure they arent too strong vs. gateway units. 4. afaik this wouldnt touch tvz at all. maybe someone wants to spend a second thinking about it. i would gladly make a bigger post with deeper thoughts about it, when i can expect some backup of you guys. | ||
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Doomgaze
Sweden89 Posts
Problem is stalkers wouldn't be as good in protecting their colossi from vikings in air mode. Are you proposing different armor types in different modes? Though I must admit I've always loved the idea of vikings in ground mode filling some kind of function that isn't harass :p | ||
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
On May 09 2010 11:21 ghostnuke1234 wrote: I hope it gets to the point where they are winning 33% - that is a sign of balance at the top level. To be frank, I could care less about how well balanced the game is at the bottom and even mid level. If we want SC2 to succeed as an E-Sport, we want to see balanced gameplay at the top level. Aren't we drawing conclusions about this a LITTLE BIT too early? Players like Demuslim make it seem like he has the game figured out after 3 months of beta and simply blames the race as if the games are out of his hand. I don't see the game being that imbalanced tbh. Broodwar has had eras of racial dominance only to have the advantage be swung to a different race as strategies and/or builds develops. I mean come on, are you seriously expecting a 33% split between the tourney wins, as if the race itself is the only variable to take into account for wins, not the player/maps or current strategy trend? | ||
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Corvi
Germany1406 Posts
On May 09 2010 23:29 Doomgaze wrote: ^ Problem is stalkers wouldn't be as good in protecting their colossi from vikings in air mode. Are you proposing different armor types in different modes? Though I must admit I've always loved the idea of vikings in ground mode filling some kind of function that isn't harass :p as they are light armored, phoenix would become an excellent solution for protecting collosi. | ||
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wanderer
United States641 Posts
I also think that the guy who said earlier that one reason for this kind of thing is because of the T's use of 3 bldgs to get his most commonly used units, compared to P's 2 and Z's 1 is a nice observation. | ||
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DeMusliM
United Kingdom401 Posts
First off i'd like to point out that i played it from both points of view - and the reality is protoss is alot easier to play, for more reward which isn't how it should be. - If i only played terran and whined all day about it then you could say something - But that's the problem, i have tried it from both sides and my conclusion is even more strongly enforced that something is wrong - sure, races dominate era's due to strategies, or due to a phenominal player dominating everyone - but the fundamentals right now are Terran Vs Protoss - Protoss play is infinitely easier, i'm not saying that to start an argument as i believe there is no greater proof than me play protoss and hitting the Razer cup final (i won more games with protoss going from top 8 - top 2) i went 4-0 with protoss in 2 bo5s, and 2-3 with Terran. Now, considering that i've played Terran alooooooooot more than protoss - i believe those stats to be totally broke. I know i'm not a very good protoss - but i was relying on strategies that were very easy to do, and were highly potent in strength - if people choose to ignore the fact, or selectively view the opposite of what i'm saying then by all means go ahead. I've tried it from both sides, it's not as if i just threw up a banner to provoke an argument. | ||
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Gont
Germany239 Posts
@topic: i think whats wrong with toss right now is that it is simply the best option for them to mass some kind of warpgate stuff and then push with it all on one base... i suggest a nerf on voidrays and warpgates...i played a lot toss (about 350 games but playing z now) and i still think that it is just stupid that warpgates produce units faster then gateways PLUS u are able to spawn them everywhere on the other hand u should buff toss abilities to macro...i suggest to add another macro mechanic btw. if naniwa wins zotac today with just 4/5 warpgates again i will switch to toss o_O | ||
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