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On May 09 2010 23:58 DeMusliM wrote:
but the fundamentals right now are Terran Vs Protoss - Protoss play is infinitely easier, i'm not saying that to start an argument as i believe there is no greater proof than me play protoss and hitting the Razer cup final (i won more games with protoss going from top 8 - top 2) i went 4-0 with protoss in 2 bo5s, and 2-3 with Terran. Now, considering that i've played Terran alooooooooot more than protoss - i believe those stats to be totally broke..
This is interesting. As I'm also playing Terran it's pretty hard to react vs Protoss builds'.
Let's remember back in BW the Toss is ahead as long as he plays a safe build and techs to Arbiter and Terrans have to micro EMP very well in order to win. If the Toss doesn't make a little mistake it's an easy win for him.
It's kind of the same in SC2 because Protoss can be ahead the whole game if he plays the correct unit counter. We have to wait for new builds which let the Terran survive the first push (vs One Base Allins) and expand equaly. I hope blizzard is going to do some more changes for TvP/PvT.
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blizz needs to do something with mech
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btw. i also suggest to nerf the early reaper/marauder timing
i guess to increase the research time of shells (slightly) + reapers requiring an additional building (cost 50/50 40 seconds to build) will make up for this...also u could lower the production time of reapers by 5-10 seconds they are a little bit more viable
any1 thinks that would be good?
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i think the same, protoss its just easier than T, i've lost with many P doing "nothing", aka playing awful (bad casting, late expoing, no harass, etc) and im really frustrated right now, im playing a lot of different strats, mixing units, using a complex variety of spells and micro intensive work, doing constant harass... and nothing, A-move of toss its pretty powerful right now, plus random FF and GS, nor emp, tanks or raven are strong defense. I think we T players would be recompensated in a long term development of the game, but for now and maybe a long time... T would be the hardest, cool and frustrating race that has being ever.
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Reapers are not imba in tvp because the toss can make a boosted zealot/stalker and the Reaper build is not usefull anymore. The 6 Rax Reaper is just an allin build and even this can be countered with a very fast Gateway.
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reapers are not imba, are useless right now, they are easilycountered in erly game (just in an allin fashion, or very disruptive eco build, can be a good choice), and then its nearly impossible to adding to your forces because their cost/effective ratio. I think reapers need an improvement for being useful in mid or late game, maybe with mines upgrade, replacing vultures space.
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On May 09 2010 23:58 DeMusliM wrote:
^
First off i'd like to point out that i played it from both points of view - and the reality is protoss is alot easier to play, for more reward which isn't how it should be. - If i only played terran and whined all day about it then you could say something - But that's the problem, i have tried it from both sides and my conclusion is even more strongly enforced that something is wrong - sure, races dominate era's due to strategies, or due to a phenominal player dominating everyone - but the fundamentals right now are Terran Vs Protoss - Protoss play is infinitely easier, i'm not saying that to start an argument as i believe there is no greater proof than me play protoss and hitting the Razer cup final (i won more games with protoss going from top 8 - top 2) i went 4-0 with protoss in 2 bo5s, and 2-3 with Terran. Now, considering that i've played Terran alooooooooot more than protoss - i believe those stats to be totally broke. I know i'm not a very good protoss - but i was relying on strategies that were very easy to do, and were highly potent in strength - if people choose to ignore the fact, or selectively view the opposite of what i'm saying then by all means go ahead. I've tried it from both sides, it's not as if i just threw up a banner to provoke an argument.
The amount of effort you have to put in doesn't matter unless the end result isn't equal. I'm not saying that the matchup isn't P favoured (im a p player and i strongly believe it is and obviously as a top t you know what you're talking about) but for most of brood war's life protoss has been the easy mode race and terran has been the super hard pure mechanics race. No one ever disputes brood war's balance based on this reason alone, although you certainly will see a lot of players whine about it.
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ok so we agree toss is easier to play than terran. but its also better than terran
i think most of us would agree we shouldnt make the game any easier, so the logical way to look at it would be to make toss harder race to play
now heres a few examples:
1: remove the global select warpgate key because why should toss has a global key like this when terrans and zergs must hotkey their production facilities..?
2: give warpgate and gateway some kind of dilemma in decision. for t its a big choice to go reactor or tech lab in our bos but its different story with warp gate. the only time toss doesnt get warp gate early game is when he make void ray.
so now we could make the gateway better, warpgate worse or make the upgrade cost more. that it costs much time (this is what blizzard chose) doesnt make any questions if u want it or not, it just makes it later but definitely something u want.
what makes the reactor so hard for terran is that it takes so long time but with good reward later on in the game, so why not just make the gateway switch take lets say 20 seconds instead of 5? its not a big change but it definetly raises some questions for toss like "is it worth it right now, can i survive during this swap" just like terran asks when he builds the reactor.
now this would probably make toss pretty weak to stuff like 4rax on 1base or massunit gogo so then secondly we would probably want to make so normal gateways produce quicker maybe?
these r just some examples but my main point is that i think a great way to make toss harder
would be to create more strategical choices such as between gateway and warpgate in the early stages. late game you will always want the warpgate and im fine with that because u always want the reactor for terran lategame rather than keeping it addon-less
ill give another example
3: u could change the storm to cost 100 and emp to 100 and give them bigger radius. then toss has to plan and prepare his attacks and have high templars at his expansions before terran attack. right now toss can just defend by making a few cannons and then just warping in hts and storming everywhere, its a very simple task because u dont need any timing. ive never seen any warpinstorms in pvz so i dont see how this would make anything worse for that mu.
id love it if blizzard worked more on the protoss strategy when it comes to macro and timing rather than just unit counters and compositions
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Weren't all those events months ago?
IMO zerg is going to dominate this game as players get more comfortable with macro builds
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yes i agree... the timing and macro mechanics deserve more work, but also, the micro and unit reaction lack of smoothness (aka hellion and viking XD) maybe more micro action could benefit a more intensive game... but im really confused about balance solutions, many of us have clear analysis about problems, but not solutions. Why a lazy toss are winning games against a working and clever terran? idk, maybe sc2 development team, need to watch more sc:bw proleague games...10 years of balancing could help!!! bring back positioning, harass and timing strategies power for god sake!
i cant believe that after cause strong damage in enemys production, 1 or 2 rounds of easiest macro revert all messy game and give a victory to brute players.
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Making Toss harder to play is a very nice idea. Then you don't have to change a lot in unit stats, you just have to make it equally hard to play.
BTW:
JINRO IS IN THE FINALS !!!
He's playing excellent so far!
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On May 10 2010 01:16 TurboMaN wrote:
Making Toss harder to play is a very nice idea. Then you don't have to change a lot in unit stats, you just have to make it equally hard to play.
BTW:
JINRO IS IN THE FINALS !!!
He's playing excellent so far!
yea, someone has to contact jinro and tell him to lose, he'll make us all look stupid after all this whine 
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Sweden33723 Posts
On May 09 2010 23:08 DeMusliM wrote:
Was just watching Jinro vs a protoss(who didn't play good) - and jinro almost lost ;S.
PvT just seems as if protoss have the perfect counter to every terran composition if they play correctly. It starts from gateways providing a +2 armour to ranged, meaning marines do 3-4 damage per hit vs all gateway units, and marauders do 7-8 cutting dps to 3-4.66, so initially your behind.
Later on your Mech is countered by the robotics bay/voidrays - and same with your air - countered by voidrays.
I'm not sure what they can do about the matchup without interfering too much with the zvp/tvz.
But it seems to be a prolonged problem that stemmed back from BW - that terran play is alot less forgiving for mistakes than that of the protoss in the PvT matchup.
I just believe that in a few months (given if things stay the way they are) protoss players won't lose unless they mess up HUGELY vs terran players.
The unforgiving nature of T wasn't really present in SC1... I mean, sort of yes, but because of how high ground worked and how strong tanks were you had way more room for sick come backs and such.
It feels like you have to almost always match toss unit for unit now which makes it difficult when you need tech vs some builds and units vs others etc :/ There's nothing like the safety of a FD opening in SC1, or even a 1 fac cc.
I just feel like there's builds that work vs maybe 2/4 or 3/4 toss openings, but then auto-die vs the 4th, and it's too hard to tell what they are going 
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United States24805 Posts
On May 10 2010 01:24 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 23:08 DeMusliM wrote:
Was just watching Jinro vs a protoss(who didn't play good) - and jinro almost lost ;S.
PvT just seems as if protoss have the perfect counter to every terran composition if they play correctly. It starts from gateways providing a +2 armour to ranged, meaning marines do 3-4 damage per hit vs all gateway units, and marauders do 7-8 cutting dps to 3-4.66, so initially your behind.
Later on your Mech is countered by the robotics bay/voidrays - and same with your air - countered by voidrays.
I'm not sure what they can do about the matchup without interfering too much with the zvp/tvz.
But it seems to be a prolonged problem that stemmed back from BW - that terran play is alot less forgiving for mistakes than that of the protoss in the PvT matchup.
I just believe that in a few months (given if things stay the way they are) protoss players won't lose unless they mess up HUGELY vs terran players. The unforgiving nature of T wasn't really present in SC1... I mean, sort of yes, but because of how high ground worked and how strong tanks were you had way more room for sick come backs and such. It feels like you have to almost always match toss unit for unit now which makes it difficult when you need tech vs some builds and units vs others etc :/ There's nothing like the safety of a FD opening in SC1, or even a 1 fac cc. I just feel like there's builds that work vs maybe 2/4 or 3/4 toss openings, but then auto-die vs the 4th, and it's too hard to tell what they are going
Isn't that because we can't scan since we need mules!?
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On May 10 2010 01:29 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 01:24 FrozenArbiter wrote:On May 09 2010 23:08 DeMusliM wrote:
Was just watching Jinro vs a protoss(who didn't play good) - and jinro almost lost ;S.
PvT just seems as if protoss have the perfect counter to every terran composition if they play correctly. It starts from gateways providing a +2 armour to ranged, meaning marines do 3-4 damage per hit vs all gateway units, and marauders do 7-8 cutting dps to 3-4.66, so initially your behind.
Later on your Mech is countered by the robotics bay/voidrays - and same with your air - countered by voidrays.
I'm not sure what they can do about the matchup without interfering too much with the zvp/tvz.
But it seems to be a prolonged problem that stemmed back from BW - that terran play is alot less forgiving for mistakes than that of the protoss in the PvT matchup.
I just believe that in a few months (given if things stay the way they are) protoss players won't lose unless they mess up HUGELY vs terran players. The unforgiving nature of T wasn't really present in SC1... I mean, sort of yes, but because of how high ground worked and how strong tanks were you had way more room for sick come backs and such. It feels like you have to almost always match toss unit for unit now which makes it difficult when you need tech vs some builds and units vs others etc :/ There's nothing like the safety of a FD opening in SC1, or even a 1 fac cc. I just feel like there's builds that work vs maybe 2/4 or 3/4 toss openings, but then auto-die vs the 4th, and it's too hard to tell what they are going Isn't that because we can't scan since we need mules!?
even with scan, P can hide their tech easily by placing pylons on the wierdest place possible
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On May 10 2010 01:31 Brokengamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 01:29 micronesia wrote:On May 10 2010 01:24 FrozenArbiter wrote:On May 09 2010 23:08 DeMusliM wrote:
Was just watching Jinro vs a protoss(who didn't play good) - and jinro almost lost ;S.
PvT just seems as if protoss have the perfect counter to every terran composition if they play correctly. It starts from gateways providing a +2 armour to ranged, meaning marines do 3-4 damage per hit vs all gateway units, and marauders do 7-8 cutting dps to 3-4.66, so initially your behind.
Later on your Mech is countered by the robotics bay/voidrays - and same with your air - countered by voidrays.
I'm not sure what they can do about the matchup without interfering too much with the zvp/tvz.
But it seems to be a prolonged problem that stemmed back from BW - that terran play is alot less forgiving for mistakes than that of the protoss in the PvT matchup.
I just believe that in a few months (given if things stay the way they are) protoss players won't lose unless they mess up HUGELY vs terran players. The unforgiving nature of T wasn't really present in SC1... I mean, sort of yes, but because of how high ground worked and how strong tanks were you had way more room for sick come backs and such. It feels like you have to almost always match toss unit for unit now which makes it difficult when you need tech vs some builds and units vs others etc :/ There's nothing like the safety of a FD opening in SC1, or even a 1 fac cc. I just feel like there's builds that work vs maybe 2/4 or 3/4 toss openings, but then auto-die vs the 4th, and it's too hard to tell what they are going Isn't that because we can't scan since we need mules!? even with scan, P can hide their tech easily by placing pylons on the wierdest place possible
ye lol same goes for z
as soon as they get lair creep is all over the place because of overlords and tumors
i barely use scan anymore
vs toss i guess and vs z i send out raxes lol
totally agree with jinro that its quite a guessing game in tvp while toss can just get observer if he wants to play safe
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I've seen a lot of terrans using scan a lot more frequently and almost at the same time Protoss uses to get an observer. Scan vs Mule is kinda the same decision like workers vs units / overlords for zerg.
About the build order argument - excuse me but wouldn't it be kinda dumb if there is a BO thats is "good" or at least "ok" vs !!everything!! ? - so why would you play anything else... ?! seriously Sthat would be hell of a boring game not even worse broadcasting at ALL. As there are, like FA said, some builds that cover a lot of basic builds, thats good isn't it?
By the way - 2 gate robo isn't suitable for all openings either - it's 3/4 too.
I totally agree to that mechanics argument, that "w" key for warp is kinda exagerated, it would be not much of a problem if you have to actually use one of the 0-9 hotkeys for that purpose (plus you dont need to mess with the different hotkey sets anymore...)
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On May 10 2010 00:51 MorroW wrote:
2: give warpgate and gateway some kind of dilemma in decision. for t its a big choice to go reactor or tech lab in our bos but its different story with warp gate. the only time toss doesnt get warp gate early game is when he make void ray.
so now we could make the gateway better, warpgate worse or make the upgrade cost more. that it costs much time (this is what blizzard chose) doesnt make any questions if u want it or not, it just makes it later but definitely something u want.
what makes the reactor so hard for terran is that it takes so long time but with good reward later on in the game, so why not just make the gateway switch take lets say 20 seconds instead of 5? its not a big change but it definetly raises some questions for toss like "is it worth it right now, can i survive during this swap" just like terran asks when he builds the reactor.
now this would probably make toss pretty weak to stuff like 4rax on 1base or massunit gogo so then secondly we would probably want to make so normal gateways produce quicker maybe?
these r just some examples but my main point is that i think a great way to make toss harder
would be to create more strategical choices such as between gateway and warpgate in the early stages. late game you will always want the warpgate and im fine with that because u always want the reactor for terran lategame rather than keeping it addon-less.
As a Protoss player i find this idea really good. Blizz already said they want a tension for going warpgate instead of gateway and toss user need to find a good balance between both. i always tought that was just to ez to get warpgate. they really need to rise the transformation time
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Sweden33723 Posts
On May 10 2010 01:38 GoDannY wrote:
I've seen a lot of terrans using scan a lot more frequently and almost at the same time Protoss uses to get an observer. Scan vs Mule is kinda the same decision like workers vs units / overlords for zerg.
About the build order argument - excuse me but wouldn't it be kinda dumb if there is a BO thats is "good" or at least "ok" vs !!everything!! ? - so why would you play anything else... ?! seriously Sthat would be hell of a boring game not even worse broadcasting at ALL. As there are, like FA said, some builds that cover a lot of basic builds, thats good isn't it?
By the way - 2 gate robo isn't suitable for all openings either - it's 3/4 too.
I totally agree to that mechanics argument, that "w" key for warp is kinda exagerated, it would be not much of a problem if you have to actually use one of the 0-9 hotkeys for that purpose (plus you dont need to mess with the different hotkey sets anymore...)
All the popular TvP openings in SC1 were at least "ok" vs everything, and you had some opportunity to scout. 1 fac CC with engineering bay has a chance at holding anything, 2 fac vults same, 1 fac fd same. They don't counter everything, but they don't outright die to anything either.
There is literally nothing even remotely similiar to that for Terran in SC2.
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On May 10 2010 02:52 FrozenArbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 01:38 GoDannY wrote:
I've seen a lot of terrans using scan a lot more frequently and almost at the same time Protoss uses to get an observer. Scan vs Mule is kinda the same decision like workers vs units / overlords for zerg.
About the build order argument - excuse me but wouldn't it be kinda dumb if there is a BO thats is "good" or at least "ok" vs !!everything!! ? - so why would you play anything else... ?! seriously Sthat would be hell of a boring game not even worse broadcasting at ALL. As there are, like FA said, some builds that cover a lot of basic builds, thats good isn't it?
By the way - 2 gate robo isn't suitable for all openings either - it's 3/4 too.
I totally agree to that mechanics argument, that "w" key for warp is kinda exagerated, it would be not much of a problem if you have to actually use one of the 0-9 hotkeys for that purpose (plus you dont need to mess with the different hotkey sets anymore...) All the popular TvP openings in SC1 were at least "ok" vs everything, and you had some opportunity to scout. 1 fac CC with engineering bay has a chance at holding anything, 2 fac vults same, 1 fac fd same. They don't counter everything, but they don't outright die to anything either. There is literally nothing even remotely similiar to that for Terran in SC2.
The thing is any build that isn't bio vs toss has incredible weaknesses that cannot be RELIABLY scouted. Once that void ray enters your base it's game over if you don't already have some marines ready to kill it, and if you were going for a thor opening or banshees, game set and match.
I mean for example in a recent game for Cauthonluck, he had a reaper luckily scout a stargate just as it was coming out and went into pure marine mode. He could do that cause he already had some raxes and then added on more. If he opened anything but bio he would've lost at that point. And he was lucky to even scout the stargate to begin with - if it had been on the other side of toss base he would've never seen it.
And obviously, bio has its own weaknesses. Anyone that makes the commitment to bio can't magically transform the raxes into something else, so you're pretty much stuck making bio vs storm and colossi later on.
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EPT
