EPTIn chess one player can have an overwhelming material advantage but the other player can still force a draw through repetition of forcing checks.
The only real problem I see is in SC2 is there is no “offer draw” command…
Lifted Terrans and Stalemate - Page 6
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lowlypawn
United States241 Posts
In chess one player can have an overwhelming material advantage but the other player can still force a draw through repetition of forcing checks. The only real problem I see is in SC2 is there is no “offer draw” command… | ||
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fuzzehbunneh
United States66 Posts
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Vip3ra
Norway13 Posts
The real question asked in the first post tho is should terran buildings have fuel, a max flight time to prevent this situation. I think so | ||
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ccou
United States681 Posts
On May 08 2010 17:33 randombum wrote: This would be ridiculous, its a in game mechanic that is well known. It is not your win if you can force your opponent to run, but cannot kill him. Just because he cannot kill you does not mean you have won. It is a draw if you cannot kill him and he cannot kill you regardless of if you would win if he decides to suicide. Imagine another scenario, of Zealot + cannons/pylon vs dt pylon. The dt user can never win, but he can prevent himself from dying. Should he lose because if he can't win? No, its a draw. Should we make it so cannons lose detection after 5 minutes of no action? What about if a protoss has a single dt blocking a ramp vs a maxed out terran army, but the terran has no mobile dection or means to get one because the toss sniped all of them when he knew he could not win outright. Should we change the game so dts become visible after they have been in the game too long? If you cannot fulfill the victory condition which is destroy all your opponents buildings then you have not won regardless of you situation. (Unless your opponent leaves). Sure, removing Terran's ability to float their way to a stall won't prevent all draws. It's true a single DT blocking the ramp of a maxed terran army could stall the game permanently, but DTs aren't permanently invisible for the sole purpose of turning games into draws. The ONLY function of being able to stay afloat permanently with terran buildings is to drag the game out forever. There's no reason in normal game circumstances that you don't land for 5 minutes or however long. Even if there's a draw function, floating terran buildings encourage draws. Just because a game mechanic is well known or it was in place in BW doesn't mean it has to carry over. MBS wasn't in BW, neither was the reveal mechanic, nor that zerg buildings start dying when it's off the creep. Terran buildings staying afloat encourages 5 minute hide and seeks in addition to draws. This is a bad thing. This is why the reveal mechanic is in place. Hey, I play random in SC2. All you Terran players seriously have not wasted time hunting down a BM opponent in a TvT after you beat them with marauders because they lifted? There's no need to nerf terran flight, it could just be that buildings in flight do not count as active buildings when checking for victory conditions and CCs in flight don't count towards active mains for the reveal mechanic. | ||
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Kanil
United States1713 Posts
What is your plan to solve those stalemates? If your plan can solve those stalemates, then why do Terran buildings need fuel? What makes that stalemate different than any other? My opinion: No mining/fighting for X minutes, game ends in a draw. All problems solved. | ||
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Slunk
Germany768 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:49 Kanil wrote: Alright, so give Terran buildings a fuel limit, if you want. Stalemates can, and will continue to happen. What is your plan to solve those stalemates? If your plan can solve those stalemates, then why do Terran buildings need fuel? What makes that stalemate different than any other? My opinion: No mining/fighting for X minutes, game ends in a draw. All problems solved. There are real stalemates, like this cannon/DT case somebody mentioned. And there are sure losses for terran players that only become stalemates because of the map layout and/or the liftoff ability. Also the latter is way more likely to happen. I bet 99% of stalemates happen because of floating buildings right now. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
this is clearly some thing that existed since BW and it make the different between races there is no need to fix since it didnt make any thing imbalance in BW => therefore notthing is imba in sc2. close this thread | ||
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Pjoo
Finland6 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:37 Vip3ra wrote: The real question asked in the first post tho is should terran buildings have fuel, a max flight time to prevent this situation. I think so I think this is the real point of the discussion. To me, with current game mechanics, it is clear that the game is draw, as neither protoss nor terran can win. Well, unless the terran does something idiotical, but as long as he doesn't do that, protoss hasn't won. How would the fuel mechanic work on maps with islands? Not very well I assume, so fixing this just for certain maps seems quite odd solution. I very much would like to see "offer draw" button for those stalemates, but it wouldn't probably work either, because while most people would be happy with the draw and just get on with it, im sure there would be people(mean american people, europeans are always nice) who would just decline draw offers and wait for their opponent to leave like with the current system. Forced draw seems simple fix, but making it so it doesn't end non-stalemate games might be slightly hard. Like, say, hidden SCV and Command Center on island, but no minerals, or something similarly crazy rare. Still, would be just lame for such anti-stalemate mechanics for ending a non-stalemate game. I can't imagine long fuel timer affecting the game balance much at all(then again, I am not pro SC player, but atleast long is nice non-defined relative term and if long enough, has no practical effect on anything), so that combined with offer draw seems like way to go. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
On May 08 2010 21:56 Izslove wrote: Nony failed to destroy the Terrans base so did not deserve to win. This doesn't make sense because the Terran doesn't have a base. Floating off the map and leaving the grounds we were fighting over, Incineration Zone, does not constitute having a base on Incineration Zone. | ||
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Zurles
United Kingdom1659 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
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SLTorak.Hobo
Canada67 Posts
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:27 Liquid`NonY wrote: PS: I woke up to a defeat screen and I'm watching the replay to see how this is possible. He has one Command Center in the corner of the map, 48 minerals and 211 gas. Replay is at 1:45 out of 9:06 so far game needs an offer draw button so that situations like this don't happen | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:33 SLTorak.Hobo wrote: This debate has been beat to death between this thread, and the last zerg who had units but no base and terran floated(I think the Terran had a rax floated). Most people told the Zerg that he had indeed lost an not the terran but now since its Nony people are more inclined to flop the other way. I on the other hand still say a terran who floats his base while the other person has an army able to kill it has lost. Its sad the amount of people who try to justify flying off and AFKing till someone else gets bored as a win for them since they 'dun dun dun strategically waited out the opponent, showing their epic awesomenesss'. Fuel is I suppose one option that would work..better yet the Terran players can grow a set of balls and actually try to float their base an use it. If you can't do that you lose the game simply put. Overall I think its sad Blizzard is going to have to implement a hand holding feature cause of a bunch of lamers. Yeah, well when people kill the mystique and take me out of my role-playing mindset, then I'm going to think about why Terran buildings can float and how that's supposed to help them. Only in an absolutely terrible RTS would there be an ability that forces a draw. It's a side effect of the ability and if it can be trimmed off, it should be. I can't fathom how any of you defend the "I float away and force a draw" mechanic. Hell I wish it was in WC3 so it'd be another reason to laugh it. It's something that SC players ought to bear with shame. | ||
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Shizuru~
Malaysia1676 Posts
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pyr0ma5ta
United States458 Posts
On May 08 2010 17:01 pyr0ma5ta wrote: Because the win condition is "eliminate all your opponent's buildings or be the last one in the game." The opponent still has buildings, and hasn't left the game, so you haven't won. It's like having a Bishop and a King left against a bare King in Chess, as long as the bare King plays optimally, he can't lose. The game is a draw, regardless of the fact that he's down a Bishop. I demand that someone who is suggesting that floating buildings not count or fall down eventually or whatever respond to my post. | ||
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Kanil
United States1713 Posts
On May 08 2010 23:58 Slunk wrote: There are real stalemates, like this cannon/DT case somebody mentioned. And there are sure losses for terran players that only become stalemates because of the map layout and/or the liftoff ability. Also the latter is way more likely to happen. I bet 99% of stalemates happen because of floating buildings right now. You quoted my post, but didn't answer a single one of my questions. You did not offer a plan for what you described as "real" stalemates, nor did you explain why a Terran flying a building is not a "real" stalemate. I don't think anyone doubts lift off stalemates are by far the most common, but nerfing Terran buildings won't prevent stalemates from occuring. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
It doesn't stop stalemates, but it forces them to either land at some point or lose the game, which means they have to come in range of attacking units and be at the same risk as the other player. | ||
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SLTorak.Hobo
Canada67 Posts
On May 09 2010 00:41 Liquid`NonY wrote: Yeah, well when people kill the mystique and take me out of my role-playing mindset, then I'm going to think about why Terran buildings can float and how that's supposed to help them. Only in an absolutely terrible RTS would there be an ability that forces a draw. It's a side effect of the ability and if it can be trimmed off, it should be. I can't fathom how any of you defend the "I float away and force a draw" mechanic. Hell I wish it was in WC3 so it'd be another reason to laugh it. It's something that SC players ought to bear with shame. Huh I think you read me wrong, I think you won the game too. I supported the zerg last time he had units and the terran fucked off with a rax too. Its not cool, no one wants to sit for hours waiting for a douche who went AFK to land. Its absurd the idea that its forced upon you. I was just saying overall its sad Blizzard has to implement a new feature cause some kids can't admit they have lost. So there has to be a fuel like feature or something, draws tho I think will lead to ladder abuse in the long run. EDIT: And yes, when you can't land your buildings because the other person will kill them when you do..I consider that a loss I don't really care about people who say "WELL U HAVE NO BASE EITHER!" No shit sherlock, but my army will fuck your building up if you decide to try and play not AFK. | ||
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