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Canada5155 Posts
On May 09 2010 14:00 Fen wrote:
I think people seem to be overestimating how easy it is for terran to force the draw. To do so, they need to cripple their enemy in such a way that they cant build 1 air unit. We arent talking about a standard game where the terran just flies off. We are talking about very specific circumstances.
Swear this is the last time I'm gonna try to explain this.
Terran has to:
cripple their enemy in such a way that they cant build 1 air unit.
Opponent has to:
cripple their enemy entirely
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Congratulations, you've proved that Protoss are not Terran.
I've thought about this a bit more. I don't really care if my floating buildings don't count towards victory/defeat, but nerfing the Terran by adding a fuel counter is retarded and unnecessary, considering how often this problem happens.
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On May 09 2010 14:18 HawaiianPig wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 14:00 Fen wrote:
I think people seem to be overestimating how easy it is for terran to force the draw. To do so, they need to cripple their enemy in such a way that they cant build 1 air unit. We arent talking about a standard game where the terran just flies off. We are talking about very specific circumstances. Swear this is the last time I'm gonna try to explain this. Terran has to: cripple their enemy in such a way that they cant build 1 air unit.Opponent has to: cripple their enemy entirely
God this discussion is a waste of time.
If you cant kill your opponent for any reason that does not involve someone breaking the rules, then you do NOT deserve a win
Terran lifting is not overpowered, it is a racial advantage which very rarely allows the terran to defend against a loss
By adding draws, we can stop stalemate situations from being a competition of who is the most stubborn
I'm done
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Even WC3 could end up in a draw, it was very rare but has happened. This game didn’t end up in a draw but you can see how it could happen.
http://www.highper.ch/aoh/index.php
By adding a fuel level to Terran CC won’t solve the possibility of some games turning into stalemates… I can think up several ways a SC2 game could turn into a draw.
1) Both players could have massive amounts of towers and are totally mined out. Then both players lose all their units to the towers. Now you just have towers and buildings sitting there…
2) One players could have DT guarding his base and the other players has no detection and no way to mine resources. But if the DT leave his base gets destroyed and the other players has towers in his base so the DT can’t attack.
3) Players could get stranded on an island.
My point is we need to add some mechanism to handle ALL possible drawing situations. One way would be if no minerals are mined for XX amount of minutes. I don’t know what the best solution is but let’s find a solution that works for all scenarios.
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I don't see why Terrans being able to fly really is an issue.
BW survived for over a decade with this ability and it worked out fine.
I'm all for implementing a draw option with certain conditions, but I really don't think changing the Terran racial advantage is the way to go.
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Canada11321 Posts
On May 09 2010 15:17 Ryuu314 wrote:
I don't see why Terrans being able to fly really is an issue.
BW survived for over a decade with this ability and it worked out fine.
I'm all for implementing a draw option with certain conditions, but I really don't think changing the Terran racial advantage is the way to go.
Not all things are equal when the mechanic was moved from BW to SCII so they don't behave the same and therefore have unintended consequences. (Just like the hitpoints of SCV's prior to the nerf.)
1) Terran buildings could fly- BUT were as slow as turtles. If the terran did fly his base away, most of the times he caught, unless there was no anti-air. I do like how the flying mechanic is faster in SCII, but it does make it easier to run into a corner.
2) I'm pretty sure R1CH's observation is correct. Most proleague maps did not have large empty spaces as border. There may be some safe spots, but not every map. And they were hard to get to because of the slow flying speed.
With these two changes we have an outcome that is neither interesting nor intended. I see no problem with having Terran being able to lift-off, find another landing spot and rebuilding. Base trading is a tense match-up, but no-one sets out to base-trade as part of their build order. (My brother's first placement match turned into a base trade.)
Being able to hide in a corner doesn't balance any racial differences that I can think of. What mechanic does the Protoss or the Zerg have that can create a similar situation?
Either floating buildings need to not counted as buildings when floated after a certain amount of times
Or a fuel limit is needed or something.
We could also add a draw feature, but it still doesn't solve the unintended consequence of the fast flying terran buildings combined with the large, empty border.
(Oh, and in a base trade, you can't just hide some air unit. By definition, both players are on the ropes trying to knock each other out. Every unit counts, so said air unit would be brought into battle. It would be idiotic to have a hidden army just in case he flies away if I lose my entire base and therefore the game in the mean time .)
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this, among many other reasons is why you don't try and trade bases with a terran. if you're trading bases with a terran you're doing something wrong.
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On May 09 2010 15:14 lowlypawn wrote:
My point is we need to add some mechanism to handle ALL possible drawing situations. One way would be if no minerals are mined for XX amount of minutes. I don’t know what the best solution is but let’s find a solution that works for all scenarios.
Isn't the simplest thing usually the best ? Like one side can propose a draw (menu -> propose draw) and other side can accept it or ignore it? Or add that if draw is proposed and no minerals are being mined for xx time then draw is forced ?
But my point is, reasonable humans can (sometimes) agree to draw in any situation that was not foreseen by the game mechanics.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 09 2010 14:18 HawaiianPig wrote:
Swear this is the last time I'm gonna try to explain this.
Terran has to:
cripple their enemy in such a way that they cant build 1 air unit.
Opponent has to:
cripple their enemy entirely
The point is that in a very large percentage of games, this is not relevantly different. It's only different at all if the opponent has no ability to mine,no air units, and not enough minerals to build an air unit/mining unit. Even in those cases where Protoss or Zerg is forced into a stalemate, a large fraction of them were likely avoidable by defending their base instead of base trading since they were probably already at an advantage (not all cases, but I am extremely skeptical that most Terrans that are reasonably good would launch an attack that banks on them destroying every chance of Protoss having an air unit unless they were already losing--the possibility of hiding one is just too high), or probably could have snuck out a worker/air unit.
On May 09 2010 16:25 Falling wrote:
2) I'm pretty sure R1CH's observation is correct. Most proleague maps did not have large empty spaces as border. There may be some safe spots, but not every map. And they were hard to get to because of the slow flying speed.
So explain how altering the core game mechanic is a better choice than simply designing maps that accomodate, especially since there are plenty of advantages to be had in filling that space with useful terrain anyway?
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I have a solution to the draw problem. Every map in the map pool should have an island expo. That way if you trade bases with terran, then the terran doesn't have to float his cc to the corner of the map - he can float it to the expo and win directly from there. =D
Actually, i have an even better solution.
After a set time, all buildings and units on the ground face instant destruction.
Therefore, in case you are worried of a draw with no AA units, then the win goes to the terran.
I just dont buy this draw thing. If terran is able to criple a whole toss economy with no AirvAir, i think the terran deserves to win by virtue of being able to land anywhere he wants and expand from there.
Imagine a real situation. Protoss is trapped on an island with no food, no minerals, no gas, and no anti-air-unit.
Any sane terran is gonna lift is Command centre to another region, make banshee's and bombard the protoss position. So lore wise, idd say terran should win in case of this position.
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well, im not trying to say that i am for or against it but:
1/ Im a P user, i understand that situation since i hv been through it quite smtimes (in plat? yes)
2/ Im agree that the speed of the building floating is truely high and need to be reduced some how.
but
1/ talking about forcing a draw, let me remind you that the static defends of both Z and P could be used to force a draw in a lot of situation in BW (a very good example would be stork vs smbody that stork even used mind control to have a second race, map minded out and Z was aiming for a draw PvZ)... and all T have is semi-static which is bunker (i dont count PF here since we r talking about lifting)
2/ map design: this also a problem with map design, remember y python > LT??? we hate island on the map, hate the locations where ground army cannot touch => blame it on the map.
3/ i saw alot of progammer (including NonY and Ret) when it comes to a base trade in BW, they always save at least 50 minerals in the end just in case for the final workers that change the game and i thing that also a "skill" that you must "practice" when u vs any races not only vs T.
4/ The only thing i want to call imba and need to remove here is the ability to load 5 workers of the CC. clearly in the high level play these day, no pro use it since we understand how much minerals we lose to the lack of non-mining/flying time which is not worth to use the load command. Therefore, Load here is an action of Terran's main building to "protect" their workers which clearly no other races have and need to be removed
lastly, i just wana point out that a replaying checking system should be made so that "draw" can be check and record as 0 - 0
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Load here is an action of Terran's main building to "protect" their workers which clearly no other races have and need to be removed
remove all unique abilities and make the game like Age of empires II minus war elephants?
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On May 08 2010 22:32 Champi wrote:Show nested quote +Yeah, put it this way, if there's a Terran lifted with no army and a Protoss running around the map waiting for the Terran to float back in, if the power went out(!!!), they'd call the game in the Protoss' favour, no? /agree
sorry man. NO. not in professional games. in beginner games maybe but also there are many other things beginners dont realise.
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terran buildings should run out of fuel after x minutes, crash, and blow up. shortly before this happens the game should give a voice warning.
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On May 09 2010 17:55 NB wrote:
1/ talking about forcing a draw, let me remind you that the static defends of both Z and P could be used to force a draw in a lot of situation in BW (a very good example would be stork vs smbody that stork even used mind control to have a second race, map minded out and Z was aiming for a draw PvZ)... and all T have is semi-static which is bunker (i dont count PF here since we r talking about lifting) Forcing a draw is not the biggest problem here, since there will be draws. But the fact is that if Zerg or Protoss are playing for the draw, they must actually spend resources and disrupt their build orders. Terrans can simply lift off pre-exisiting buildings that were going to be built in the first place, meaning they don't play for the draw but still have the ability to play for the draw.
Draw is a feasible outcome of the game. That being said, should Terrans have a free draw mechanic? How would people feel if one race had a free mechanic that gives them the advantage over other outcomes, like a free win mechanic?
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On May 10 2010 03:41 Anti-Milton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 17:55 NB wrote:
1/ talking about forcing a draw, let me remind you that the static defends of both Z and P could be used to force a draw in a lot of situation in BW (a very good example would be stork vs smbody that stork even used mind control to have a second race, map minded out and Z was aiming for a draw PvZ)... and all T have is semi-static which is bunker (i dont count PF here since we r talking about lifting) Forcing a draw is not the biggest problem here, since there will be draws. But the fact is that if Zerg or Protoss are playing for the draw, they must actually spend resources and disrupt their build orders. Terrans can simply lift off pre-exisiting buildings that were going to be built in the first place, meaning they don't play for the draw but still have the ability to play for the draw. Draw is a feasible outcome of the game. That being said, should Terrans have a free draw mechanic? How would people feel if one race had a free mechanic that gives them the advantage over other outcomes, like a free win mechanic?
How do you know that T isn't disadvantaged in some other way to begin with? If you've solved SC2 and know exactly how it's balanced, I'm sure we'd all like to know.
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On May 10 2010 03:52 crate wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2010 03:41 Anti-Milton wrote:On May 09 2010 17:55 NB wrote:
1/ talking about forcing a draw, let me remind you that the static defends of both Z and P could be used to force a draw in a lot of situation in BW (a very good example would be stork vs smbody that stork even used mind control to have a second race, map minded out and Z was aiming for a draw PvZ)... and all T have is semi-static which is bunker (i dont count PF here since we r talking about lifting) Forcing a draw is not the biggest problem here, since there will be draws. But the fact is that if Zerg or Protoss are playing for the draw, they must actually spend resources and disrupt their build orders. Terrans can simply lift off pre-exisiting buildings that were going to be built in the first place, meaning they don't play for the draw but still have the ability to play for the draw. Draw is a feasible outcome of the game. That being said, should Terrans have a free draw mechanic? How would people feel if one race had a free mechanic that gives them the advantage over other outcomes, like a free win mechanic? How do you know that T isn't disadvantaged in some other way to begin with? If you've solved SC2 and know exactly how it's balanced, I'm sure we'd all like to know.
Hello fellow poster. I am really not trying to single you out here, but posts like this are why tlnet is going to shit. There's a growing trend in making these really ignorant, hyperbolic posts like this that are essentially the equivalent of using the chewbacca defense to argue a point. There's nothing offensive about what you are saying, but it's so flat out retarded that not only does it not contribute to the discussion at hand, it can't really effectively be responded to because it's just so fucking dumb.
I mean does anyone truly believe the ability to force stalemates is somehow related to race balance? Really, honestly? Do you even believe what your one line post is suggesting? Posts like this could basically be described as spam somewhat cleverly disguised as a post with actual contributory intent behind it. I mean one or two of these is fine, but it's like you refresh a new thread and it's 10 pages of comments like this. They are just so baseless and bad and make reading threads so difficult.
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On May 08 2010 10:20 Joey.rumz wrote:
Or Nony can say "you know, I have 500 people watching me stream, this loser on the other team probably doesn't," say gg, and find a new game.
During release, I can see this being a legit problem. But it's stupid beta where ELO will be reset who knows how many more times.
I guarentee this game was shorter than the stand off it is now enduring. I wish nony would just go find a game after leaving this, and take retribution by pounding someone's skull in (preferably with phoenix micro.)
Why do people make this arguement? LOL ITS JUTS BETAS!! Isnt beta for fixing problems? Isnt this a problem? Saying "Its just beta" just shows that you dont understand what a beta is for. A beta is for complaining about imbalances, if Nony did this against any other race he would have won, but since its Terran thats OK? Fanboy much?
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On May 09 2010 15:14 lowlypawn wrote:Even WC3 could end up in a draw, it was very rare but has happened. This game didn’t end up in a draw but you can see how it could happen. http://www.highper.ch/aoh/index.phpBy adding a fuel level to Terran CC won’t solve the possibility of some games turning into stalemates… I can think up several ways a SC2 game could turn into a draw. 1) Both players could have massive amounts of towers and are totally mined out. Then both players lose all their units to the towers. Now you just have towers and buildings sitting there… 2) One players could have DT guarding his base and the other players has no detection and no way to mine resources. But if the DT leave his base gets destroyed and the other players has towers in his base so the DT can’t attack. 3) Players could get stranded on an island. My point is we need to add some mechanism to handle ALL possible drawing situations. One way would be if no minerals are mined for XX amount of minutes. I don’t know what the best solution is but let’s find a solution that works for all scenarios.
After reading that awesome article I'm going to go mass some towers in wc3.
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Oh c'mon, this discussion is more about manners than IMBA-ness of Terran... If sm1 is such a morron to play like that - JUST LEAVE THE GAME!
Is 1 win really that important to get totally worked up about that?
Besides: Terran Buildings were able to lift in SCBW as well and noone complained about it, just because it's not an Issue in 99% of the games and in all the other games were the game goes to the point of total annihilation, the other player should've known that Terran can lift and fly away. That's why you don't basetrade against Terran etc.
And if the Terran wins by killing your last building and you weren't able to because you had no air-unit's - well, you've lost fair and square.
And if it's one of those 1 in 10'000 stalemate-situations and noone can really win - well, be the mannered one and leave...
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EPT
