I'd like some opinions on this reasoning and thoughts from more experienced posters and players:
Patch 11 Phoenix
Theorycraft
This is a simplified example - I understand that a lot of this is game-situational. I'll look into the build time to get Air technology, along with how the units stack up themselves, and the cost and time effectiveness of the Mutalisk vs Phoenix.
Mutalisk Cost: 100/100 Supply: 2 Build Time for unit: 33s Path for Technology*: Spawning Pool, Lair, Spire Cost for Technology: 200/0, 150/100, 200/200 = 550/300 Time for Technology: 65s, 80s, 100s = 245s = 4min 5sec
Phoenix Cost: 150/100 Supply: 2 Build time for unit: 45s Path for Technology: Pylon, Gateway, Cybernetics core, Stargate Cost for Technology: 0/0* 150/0, 150/0, 150/150 = 450/150 Time for Technology: 25s 65s, 50s, 60s = 200s = 3min 20sec
*Pylon cost is 0/0 because both Overlords and Pylons provide supply, and is the same cost for both races. With the Larva mechanic, producing overlords does not add linear/technology build time to Zergs technology tree, hence why its not added into the build time. The pylon IS added to the Protoss' build time, because you can't actually build buildings without the Pylon, whereas you can build buildings without Overlords.
If both players rush/bee-line for Air units with discounting times to actually place buildings Protoss can get a Stargate at about 200sec into the game, and start producing units, which take 45s each. Protoss can get a Phoenix out within 245 seconds, which is about 4min 5 sec.
Zerg can finish a Spire at about 245 seconds, and finish (X-number of) Mutalisks within 4min 38 sec.
Clearly Zerg has it more resource and time expensive to tech to Air technology, however the strength of Zerg is the build multiple Mutalisks at once. More on this later.
Protoss have a window of TOTAL air superiority for about the build time of the Mutalisks, which is 35s. Considering how fast Phoenix's are, this is significant Overlord hunting time, especially on the smaller maps. There is absolutely nothing that Zerg can do against this - Zerg is unable to build the technology quick enough. Keep in mind that this is a single Stargate build, you can add on another Stargate at 150/150 cost, which will bring the total technology costs in line with Zerg, with (in this example) no time increase to the build. This time-advantage is extended when Protoss use the Chronoboost ability to produce Phoenix's quicker!
One for One, the Phoenix is more expensive than the Mutalisk to produce - coming at an extra 50 minerals.
Now onto the situational stuff: Obviously this patch has made the Phoenix is more micro-intensive than before. From the youtube video, its easy to see that Phoenix is a fantastic unit against Mutalisks with proper micro. There would be a critical number of Phoenix's that can snipe Mutalisks with nothing the Zerg player can do apart from "Not go mutalisk".
Conclusion Obviously this is a huge buff to the Phoenix. The Protoss player is able to tech quicker, produce quicker and have air superiority before Zerg. Even if Zerg were able mass Mutalisk, the Phoenix has one production cycle advantage, which with 2 Stargate play, would mean that 4 Phoenix are out in the same time as Zerg's Mutalisk group, typically between 6 - 8 Mutalisks. Zerg not only lose in the air tech, but with the latest change, Zerg lose with unit control and if Zerg wants to pursue the Mutalisk tech tree against Protoss, Zerg must put early pressure to delay the Phoenix.
All in all, I think this change limits Zergs scope and versatility against Protoss, especially if Phoenix's are used in skilled hands.
Not gonna read all 36 pages, but up till page 6 people are wondering why about the hellion buff.
It isnt really a buff perse. They already did damage out to range 6 (that was the "splash"). However previously hellions only acquired targets within range of 5.
SO, that means hellion AI is smarter and better when attack moved, but not as good when microed. Well, that isnt necessarily true either. It just means micro will be a little bit trickier with them.
On May 07 2010 11:15 sk` wrote: Wow... Z got raped HARD.
Only real means to fend off early all-ins was Crawler placement and re-placement. Gone.
Broodlords, nerf.
Ultra, buffed but still shit. Ignored the real problem, impractical.
Corrupters, buffed but still shit. Ignored the real problem, not that effective in air battles versus their cost.
Infestors, raped. Completely raped.
Spore Crawlers, ignored the real problem... range.
I guess it is time to T up...
overreact much? Infestors still have a very strong fungal growth, and 50 energy no-research mind control at 9 range was beyond OP and needed to be fixed.
Corrupters are counters to massive air units, they are NOT supposed to be able to beat vikings and phoenix in a straight up even-cost fight.
broodlords needed a small nerf, they are still very strong
just position your spines better so you dont have to move them around as much. seriously soo spoiled, the other races actually have static defenses, and you get one that can move. seriously if beta started today and blizzard told you that you can move your static defense but it takes 6 seconds to root, you would've been ecstatic. Now theres a penalty for moving around your static defense, as their should be.
The Sentry nerf is perfectly placed, P has do decide to give up ~25% dmg or some forcefields. I like it. I don't like the phoenix change, since zerg should have at least one air unit which is able to counter phoenix. May give corrupters same range as phoenix would resolve the thingy.
People complaining about spores movement make no sense....
Last I checked Turrents and Cannons didn't move around everywhere lol and are more expensive. If terran and toss have to learn where to put ATA defense, so should zerg. Besides, queens are surprisingly really good ATA dense for rushes if used properly.
Well, I don't have definitive numbers, obviously, but it feels like PvZ is pretty one-dimensional for the Zerg. Any attempt at going Mutas get soundly crushed by a reactive Stargate and Phoenix pumping. Before you had to sit around, getting your Probes gibbed and running Stalkers/Sentries around like headless chickens while you slowly build up Phoenixes to reach that magic 3:5 ratio. Now you can just run in with Phoenixes as they spawn and kick some serious ass. Pretty sure the Muta openers are going to phase out entirely before long.
Now you know its either going to be Hydras with possibly some Infestors...and High Templar and an assload of Speedlots and Sentries can handle both, so...yeah. PvZ is pretty much gonna suck for Zerg for a while.
Unless, of course, Zerg start getting smart and use Corruptors to handle the Phoenixes (trying not to get them killed by Stalkers). That'll switch things up a bit.
On May 07 2010 13:58 Chen wrote: overreact much? Infestors still have a very strong fungal growth, and 50 energy no-research mind control at 9 range was beyond OP and needed to be fixed.
This is not that fix however... this just makes it happen later, costing more. It doesn't address a balance issue, it just makes it less likely to occur. Lazy balance.
Also, Fungal Growth is trash. Give me PULAAAAAAAAAAAGUUUUUUUUUUUU.
Corrupters are counters to massive air units, they are NOT supposed to be able to beat vikings and phoenix in a straight up even-cost fight.
Know that much... so what does counter? Oh, nothing.
broodlords needed a small nerf, they are still very strong
If you let Z get enough gas to get them you deserve it.
just position your spines better so you dont have to move them around as much. seriously soo spoiled, the other races actually have static defenses, and you get one that can move. seriously if beta started today and blizzard told you that you can move your static defense but it takes 6 seconds to root, you would've been ecstatic. Now theres a penalty for moving around your static defense, as their should be.
K... see, the reason Z was gifted Spines was because unlike other races we don't get shit at T1 or T1.5. Lings or Roaches that both lost badly to all good early all-ins. Stopping this so we could actually access our units was thanks to the Crawlers and being able to move them as the need arised. Now... ? Great, if your base has a back door you're fucked.
Interesting patch, but reading the explanations makes me lose confidence in them "the changes to NP are to help protect the ultralisk from being mind-controlled too easily" ?????
Kind of sad to see the corrupter ability go. I know nobody liked it, but against PF'ed and turrent infested terrans, I liked it. Any chance this new ability will be patched in the future to be able to target buildings, or would that make it OP? I can see this being used against Thor and collosus...
Infestor: It was probably needed, but man I loved me some neural parasite. I have a friend who is a bit Thor-crazy. I'll have to fast tech now.
Siege Tank Life increased from 150 to 160. Siege Mode splash damage now originates from the center of the target, rather than the impact location near the unit in order to maintain more reliable splash damage.
no cost change wtf is this !@!#@!#!@
well in my experience, in sc2 there is no such thing as a mech terran, I saw it tried but failed, it worked really well when integrated with a decent number of mmm, but pure mech wasn't really viable, now with helion range increased, and slightly stronger seige tanks blizzard is trying to make it more viable.
besides thor took a massive beating in that patch.
Regarding all the balance changes I'm quite content with them, I like how they reduce burst dmg across the board (almost), and the general tweaks. I'm missing a tinkering with Force Field though, I just think it lasts too long and is abit too cheap to cast.
But this patch is all about the phoenix.. W _ T _ F ?!
I can't belive this is what we're seeing, and I hope they come up with something fast to replace this with some sort of real animation canceling. =´(
On May 07 2010 13:58 Chen wrote: overreact much? Infestors still have a very strong fungal growth, and 50 energy no-research mind control at 9 range was beyond OP and needed to be fixed.
This is not that fix however... this just makes it happen later, costing more. It doesn't address a balance issue, it just makes it less likely to occur. Lazy balance.
Also, Fungal Growth is trash. Give me PULAAAAAAAAAAAGUUUUUUUUUUUU.
just position your spines better so you dont have to move them around as much. seriously soo spoiled, the other races actually have static defenses, and you get one that can move. seriously if beta started today and blizzard told you that you can move your static defense but it takes 6 seconds to root, you would've been ecstatic. Now theres a penalty for moving around your static defense, as their should be.
K... see, the reason Z was gifted Spines was because unlike other races we don't get shit at T1 or T1.5. Lings or Roaches that both lost badly to all good early all-ins. Stopping this so we could actually access our units was thanks to the Crawlers and being able to move them as the need arised. Now... ? Great, if your base has a back door you're fucked.
LOL. fungal growth is trash? ok just cause it doesnt do 300 automatic damage doesnt make it suck lol. its one of the strongest spells in the game considering it immobilizes units for 8 seconds and does 36 damage, ie 80% of marine HP after a stim.
oh yeah, lets completely forget the fact that corrupters are extremely good vs colossi, a rather important unit in the PvZ matchup.
on broodlords, so if the game goes late and both players are on 4-5 bases, the toss/terran should automatically get punished for being unable to prevent the zerg from staying on equal/+1 bases? right.
and you still havent made any argument on crawlers lol. all your problems can be solved with scouting (woot 25 mineral lings and overlords flying everywhere) and good foresight. you seem to think that blizzard wants and made it so the only way that zerg can survive to lair is by massing crawlers. you should watch some replays of great zergs like maybe idra and see how many times over the course of 10 games he masses spine crawlers and is forced to shuffle them from main to natural in order to defend his bases.
I'm almost double posting here, but the bloody phoenix is.. I'm stunned.
You dont even have to attackmove, you just have to move it across or close to something in range and it WILL shot at it. There is absolutly no micro involved in this. I'm terrified =(
EPT
