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On May 05 2010 09:34 fungr wrote:
i'm a frequent reader but not an active poster on TL but i watched this one and ejoyed it very much but i do have a question, since you are getting ghosts from 2 or so barracks at a max because of all the gas and rest of the baracks you get marines
why don't you get any reactor on those baracks? you do have minerals to keep all those baracks with reactors on going for most of the game.
is it because of it takes so long to make and it just more effective getting new baracks instead so you can continue pumping marines meanwhile or?
I was curious about this too. I normally get reactors on any rax that I will be pumping straight marines from. Is it more effective to just lay down another rax instead of a reactor?
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Really great analysis Gretorp! Keep up the good work!
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Wow, very impressive findings. Looking forward to more videos!
Audio could be a little louder.
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WOW, I am blown away by this build! I'm definitely gonna try this a few times.
Keep up the good work Gretorp.
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Tried it lots against my friend who's admittedly worse than me, and a bit in 2v2 as well and I have to agree with the whole "works alot better than you'd expect" thing. I don't know about colossi (although I think there's more than enough time to switch to vikings if you have to), but everything else really does get dealt with by this.
Still haven't played a great protoss to really test things, but in regards to guardian shield: it's alot less of an issue than you'd think. Remember that ghosts do 20 damage to light, so if you EMP a sentry it gets taken down by 2 ghosts and a marine in one shot. Sentries absolutely melt against this, even when they get guardian shield up beforehand. The same holds for chargelots. They do some damage, but stimmed marines + ghosts will rip through them.
And reactors on barracks is probably a not too great idea. Reactors are 50 gas 50 minerals (I think), whereas a new rax are 150 min. Both are the same build time too I think. Plus if you put a reactor on a barracks you can't build from it for the reactor build time.
Anyways, just a few observations about ghost/marine. I encourage the sceptics to give it a shot^^ i's niice
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Colossus push with a proxied robo bay - how do you respond?
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Great stream and great first episode!
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Fast ghosts is something I've been doing for about the past week in my TvP's, and I've had great success. I would suggest getting cloak researched, and if you see the protoss is going robo tech, cancel researching cloak. It's a long upgrade, so you have plenty of time to check.
If the protoss goes for 4 gate or void ray, they wont have observers, and a single cloaked ghost can be sent in to their economy and shut it down. Only costs 150/150 to do this, and you continue on with the rest of your build as you see fit 
For the person saying 4 gate can shut down the ghost/marine: You can also use the cloaked ghosts defensively; sure you may lose all of your marines and maybe a supply depot, but your cloaked ghosts are doing bonus damage to light the entire time and you'll easily survive.
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updated with a new cast! Enjoy!!!
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Nice casts!
I was just wondering (as a protoss player) what you've found to be effective so far against you're build (If you're willing to share your secrets)?
One counter I thought of so far is doing using the stargate for phoenixes rather than voidrays. You can use graviton beam to pickup the ghosts or make them use their EMPs on the phoenixes before engaging with the rest of the army. This would be a micro battle just like fighting sentries with guardian shield, though, I guess. Marines would be trying to snipe down the phoenixes while the toss army barrels down on the terran army releasing the ghosts so they can EMP.
That would be awesome to watch.
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United States4126 Posts
On May 05 2010 14:10 Gretorp wrote:
updated with a new cast! Enjoy!!!
Why are you so handsome?
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This should be recommended viewing for anyone even considering playing Terran. *takes notes*
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Re: 1a
I chuckled when you made the "knight on the rim is grim" analogy. Great.
Thanks for sharing an innovative and really good build order. Well explained. Very well done putting up the three main protoss builds, methodical and professionally done.
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Watched parts of your first episode. VERY intriguing build and unit composition. I might even say 2 rax marine/ghost >>>> reactor on 2nd rax + facts would be even stronger. The unit that would concern me the most with ghost/marine obviously is the stalker and marine/ghost/tank demolishes stalkers so fast. Tanks also do well vs the inevitable coli or HT switch. My only concern is dealing with chargelots so perhaps transitioning to more of a hybrid biomech build marine/ghost/tank/hellion would be pretty universally strong.
I just think in general the 2 rax marine/ghost army is pretty strong as an opener - surprisingly strong. You also have EMP for detection vs DTs which would otherwise completely hard counter this build.
Overall I'm impressed and intrigued.
Also a note: I did some testing of my own and discovered that thors now do not beat voidrays 1 on 1 (they used to before the voidray/thor changes). However, en masse voidrays get DEMOLISHED by thors. I think scv repair + a few marines should be sufficient to beat voidrays if you go thors though until you get a good mass. Thors are weakest vs chargelots/immortals, units which will not be out quickly vs voidrays. The trick is can you open thors reactionally in time, or can you open them blindly and not die/be at a disadvantage to non voidray builds? Perhaps you could look into that some.
Lastly, I'd like to see how this holds up to 4/5 warpgate allins. I worry that with proper micro protoss will just overwhelm you.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 05 2010 09:37 TheNikeYork wrote:
I was curious about this too. I normally get reactors on any rax that I will be pumping straight marines from. Is it more effective to just lay down another rax instead of a reactor?
I feel like this is a change that happened in patch 6, where the tech lab cost got dropped, and the reactor build time got increased. Prior to then, the advantage of the reactor over a 2nd barracks was primarily the build time--25 seconds as opposed to 60 for a new barracks. The difference is only 10 seconds as of patch 6, and since the reactor isn't as useful on other buildings in TvP (it's WAY early to get it for the Starport, and Marine/Hellion pump is kind of an awkward unit composition), the added versatility of another Barracks (can be lifted for scouting, or added with a Tech Lab to produce Marauders or Ghosts depending on unit composition) outweighs the 10 seconds and some minerals you save on the reactor.
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well articulated commentary. great build. i'd definitely like to throw in a fast raven and one or a few medivac or banshee for support in there and then go aggressive early off of 1 base into expand.
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Very nice video but the sound was super low: I had to crank all my settings to the max to hear your voice and then my windows warnings scared the living shit out of me.
Been trying this build on ~1500 rating plat EU and it works well. Not 100% on all the timings yet but its truly a suprisingly strong build early which makes most tosses just suicide their first army and then lose later.
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On May 05 2010 18:11 TheYango wrote:
I feel like this is a change that happened in patch 6, where the tech lab cost got dropped, and the reactor build time got increased. Prior to then, the advantage of the reactor over a 2nd barracks was primarily the build time--25 seconds as opposed to 60 for a new barracks. The difference is only 10 seconds as of patch 6, and since the reactor isn't as useful on other buildings in TvP (it's WAY early to get it for the Starport, and Marine/Hellion pump is kind of an awkward unit composition), the added versatility of another Barracks (can be lifted for scouting, or added with a Tech Lab to produce Marauders or Ghosts depending on unit composition) outweighs the 10 seconds and some minerals you save on the reactor.
I'm not sure that I'd say a reactor saves you any time at all, since you can be producing marines while you build a second barracks, but not while you build a reactor. So you end up with 30 seconds less production time by building a reactor instead of a second barracks. So that's more than a whole marine extra by not building the reactor.
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in my opinion, getting a rax is better. the gas it takes to get the reactor is slightly detrimental, but it's just the fact you have to wait while producing nothing and limited to marines when going the reactor, where as with getting another rax, you can produce units and you have the ability to put on tech labs to be producing marauders. Reactor never has that ability. If the opposing player is going mass stalkers, they've negated your reactor
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EPT
