Q&A includes questions from email. If you have any more questions feel free to ask me and I'll get to them all when I can thank you! //----------------------------- Warning Episode 3 is a lot of talk, not much video. It is aproximately 70 minutes long.
The video for me was 5 mins of a paused game and about 30 seconds of scv making, not sure if it was bugged for me or there was an error on the video upload, but just incase anyone else experiences the same thought i'd give a headsup.
On May 04 2010 21:20 XeliN wrote: The video for me was 5 mins of a paused game and about 30 seconds of scv making, not sure if it was bugged for me or there was an error on the video upload, but just incase anyone else experiences the same thought i'd give a headsup.
Same for me, do you have to actually download the video to see the whole thing?
i heard you try to develop your own style above all else so i find this pretty interesting. you share your own knowledge on your personally designed builds and your playstyle.
if i was terran i would subscribe.
and a question: how long do you plan on not watching other peoples replays? i guess there are always things one 'forgets' or hasn't thought of that one could learn from other peoples play.
Woot, i tried to "steal" your TvP build from watching your replays/vods but i ended up butchering it. Hopefully this episode is going to help me out more at succeeding at it >;3
edit: also being able to download episodes is 10 times more awesome than watching stuff of livestream.com, so i like this choice.
edit2: i take that back, when i open that link it says "The file link that you requested is not valid.", can't you use megaupload or something?
edit3: I'VE BEEN HEARD! megaupload link works, thanks.
Works now :-) i dled it and it comes up with the whole episode... I think the 4shared might work, it's just you have to dl it and now watch it on their website as they probably don't allow and episode to go for 30++minutes
Okay, watched the whole thing now. Volume was very low, so I had to set my vlc to 200% and use an amplifier option. So it would be cool, if you could increase the volume for the next episodes.
On the build: (I am only ~#30 on Gold and no T, so the following stuff could be nonsense.) You rely a lot on Marines, so would it not make sense to research Shields, after you got an appropriate amount (around 4 from what I have seen) of Ghosts? I noticed you didn't need that upgrade to win (and it is neither that good nor cheap), but in my little clown brain it would make sense to get it, once the game approaches mid game. Also, I am not that sure, if that build is that good against Storm, mid-game. But I have no idea how Ghosts vs HT does work out. Depends on who player will get of EMP/Feedbacks first, I'd guess? On the other hand, you have a lot more flexibility with your build, to prepare for the HT. I definitely would like to see a game, where you use that opening and the P goes Storms later on.
Otherwise the episode was very educational and I will watch the following ones as well. Maybe I'll offrace as T a bit. xD
Vey nice video and interesting take on the mu. I'll definitely be tuning into your episodes as they come out. Hell I'll probably even start watching your stream because your nice well thought out play. It kind of reminds me of Chill's old SC1 commentaries.
Love your stream gretorp. You're insight while playing is awesome. Will def give this a watch and also share it with my poor unfortunate T friend who was working on something similar.
Gretorp is far and away the best streamer on planet Earth. The depth of his strategy that he explains in meticulous detail on his stream is just a treasure trove of learning. Even if you're not a Terran player, listen to Gretorp and his stream because the way that he breaks down games as he's playing them teaches you so much about what you should be thinking during a game.
I tried to watch it before coming in to work this morning but as has already been discussed the online thing on 4share or whatever didn't work. Looking forward to checking out the full video later.
Great video man. I learned a lot! I especially appreciate how comprehensive your discussion is. First, you explained the problem in TvP and how your build addresses it. But you also explained important basics like how to scout and what you can infer from seeing certain buildings, how to place and use bunkers, etc... just great.
I'll be trying this build out in TvP for sure! And regardless of whether I can pull it off, my understanding of TvP is much greater.
Just two suggestions. First, the audio is really soft -- turn it up! Second, it would be great if you could release replays with the episode so we can more closely observe and emulate the build order.
Thanks for a great first episode! Bopping clowns ftw.
Edit: I would love to see more discussion and exploration of the many options for the mid-game in future episodes. And TvZ, of course!
On May 04 2010 23:00 UltraVires wrote: Just two suggestions. First, the audio is really soft -- turn it up! Second, it would be great if you could release replays with the episode so we can more closely observe and emulate the build order.
On May 04 2010 22:33 Gretorp wrote: not at all i have never uploaded to youtube. maybe i'll start doing that but if you'd like to do that you can :-) Thank you!
You should upload to youtube. Nowadays ppl only wanna watch streamed.
Your stream is my favorite to watch because, well obviously you're good, but your commentary is hilarious but also lets us followed your thought process. I would watch if you did a cast analysis similar to Day9.
I watch Gretorp's stream every time it's up just cause he's always commenting what he is doing. Looking forward to more of these videos.
Off topic: the comment about knights on the rim in chess is so funny. Like 7-8 years ago I watched a game of chess in school and all 4 knights were on the edges. I just said to a friend "a knight on the rim is dim, it's chances are slim" and pointed to the knights. We both laughed out loud.
Some feedback: I'm watching with quicktime on a mac and volume is really quiet. Content of the episode is great. I'd also like to see a more organized OP.
Overall, great job though. I'm looking forward to future episodes.
hey gretorp nice vid, volume is terribly low tho, had to pump it up 200% in VLC. But awsome video, great episode yo. Ive had som serious problems with voidrays lately, seems protoss finally stopped bitching about the nerfbat and started experimenting with different unit compositions and it is hard to deal with, I have been going mostly marines/vikings against this, but it fails so misseribly because unless they make collosus (which is retarded against vikingbuild) I have spent tons and tons of minerals and gas on units that suck vs everything except air+collosus. I will def. be trying this stuff out. I kept asking myself why you didnt make earlier engineering bay(s) tho, maybe you have some thoughts on that because it seems that a marineheavy army will benefit more greatly from upgrades than marauders would, maybe this is not true but I imagine it as a sort of counter to guardian shield, whenever I go marine heavy builds I have fooked every time because of guardian shield. But you countered it nicely with EMP tho. well done sir
Volume was very low so you might want to look into that. As for the episode itself though it was awesome, I follow your streams since before and I love how you keep going through the theory behind every single move you do. Very useful. I also really like this build actually right now I am experimenting with just about every possible build against protoss and I am going on bnet right now to try your ghost/marine build out a few times. It seems very sound.
I'm actually thinking that siege tanks might be a strong addition at the midgame as well so I'm gonna try that out a tad too.
SCII is drying me out at the moment, so why not Downloading!
EDIT: Just finished it. It was really good actually - Its unlikely that you will have such fantastic content in every episode, but please keep em coming - great insights for a gold T -player!
First I had to fiddle around for 30 minutes, doing research to figure out how to increase the sound to actually hear anything. But once I did, it was a blast, awesome commentary, I'm also your stream fan, so keep up the good work!
Awesome watch, thanks for this. I'd like to know what you think about the shield upgrade considering how many marines you're making, not worth the gas? Also would you get/use stim before medivacs?
Actually I cant hear almost anything -___- i downloaded the mega upload and i hear the voice SOO distant in the background, its annoying just to try and really listen to the cast TT_TT
On May 05 2010 00:44 Gretorp wrote: sorry about the volume guys. I forget that i have really loud speakers, so it sounds normal volume to me. I'll fix it for the next episode definitely!
Just to give you an idea of how low it is. I had to max out everything I could max out to actually hear anything. It was still pretty low.
Gretorp, love the stream. Love the unorthodox build attempts, love the self refuting. You seem like a calm, polite, and nice guy. Totally bookmarked the stream, and will continue to watch!
Great stuff Andre. I like how your vid is more theorycrafting which makes it different from other SC2 vids. It's a nice a long vid too and only 90some megs. Good job!
I have heard you talking about this build and the process of making it in your stream. Does not disappoint. Your analysis is great, as usual. The quality and length of the video is also good.
There were a couple of times that you didn't explain things particularly well, in that you would offer a complex explanation with enough vague spots as to create ambiguity. I don't think I was confused at any point, but it was clear that the potential to confuse is there. Really try to spell stuff out; it's going to make a lot of sense for you, the theory's originator, but it won't be as intuitive to the viewers. Even if we get it, sometimes the lengthy explanation gets in the way. I'm mostly talking about your descriptions of DPS from marines compared to marauders and your void ray/knights analogy. This isn't really a problem, just trying to identify an area you can improve.
On May 05 2010 03:02 thopol wrote: I have heard you talking about this build and the process of making it in your stream. Does not disappoint. Your analysis is great, as usual. The quality and length of the video is also good.
There were a couple of times that you didn't explain things particularly well, in that you would offer a complex explanation with enough vague spots as to create ambiguity. I don't think I was confused at any point, but it was clear that the potential to confuse is there. Really try to spell stuff out; it's going to make a lot of sense for you, the theory's originator, but it won't be as intuitive to the viewers. Even if we get it, sometimes the lengthy explanation gets in the way. I'm mostly talking about your descriptions of DPS from marines compared to marauders and your void ray/knights analogy. This isn't really a problem, just trying to identify an area you can improve.
I think I agree with your criticism. The Knight analogy was nice for chess players, but I think it would have been more effective to make the point in a simpler and less abstract way. E.g., In a normal mass marauder build, void rays accomplish three things 1) they counter the marauder heavy unit comp, 2) they provoke an expensive tech switch, and 3) they are very effective at harassment and often pull off at least a few building kills or end the game outright. But with your ghost-marine build void rays do not counter the unit comp or provoke a tech switch; on the contrary, marine-ghost should provoke a tech switch from your toss opponent, if he's smart. Void ray utility is therefore reduced to harassment, but much less effective harassment because 1 emp forces them to run away.
I'm not saying that you should throw away all abstraction or analogies to chess or whatever. I think the chess analogy would have been a great way to recap a more specific discussion. Anyway just a suggestion -- the less abstract and the more specific your explanations are, the better!
Thanks again and looking forward to future episodes
Bleh, I guess I am just not good enough or my micro is not good enough because I get raped completely trying this build, ten straight losses in TvP now and they were not even close.
thanks for the criticism guys. will definitely keep that in mind i love to tagent way too much!!! :-) everythings improv so I tend to talk about things unrelated way too much, and divulge into the abstract to the point of wtf....
I did have 2 questions. I see how this marine/ghost build works really really well against most protoss build orders. My big problem when I get a significant number of marines collosus shut me down so hard (even if I have emp). The only game you showed with collosus ended almost immediately. Had you not timed that push perfectly I feel you end up just dying straight up. Any marine heavy composition usually just evaporates as soon as they get collosus range. So my question is, how do you deal with collosus in the late midgame?
Additionally, you didn't show any of the late game transitions. When do you get stim? Do you get marine health or stim first? When do you get medivacs?
When I first started watching replay videos back in March, it seemed early Ghost was standard in TvP, but somewhere along the line, Ghost use diminished. Nice to see someone using them effectively again.
Anyways, thanks for the video. Look forward to more. (only complaint, is the low volume).
I am a big fan of your stream Gretorp. Keep boppin' them clowns. Yeah, that's what's up.
Just watched your video and had to use VLC to boost volume by 400% with speakers on max just to hear you. You already noted you'll fix that for next time, but anybody having issues hearing it - get VLC for the volume boost.
Your TvP build is excellent and the commentary was original and insightful. Of all the TvP openings out there, I think your build and avilo's build are the two safest against 4-5 warpgate rush, 2 gate/robo, and voidray openings. Your build has the advantage where it requires less scouting and adapting your unit composition to deal with all 3 typical protoss openings, since marine + ghost + few marauders handles it all. avilo's build has the advantage that it opens up the entire tech tree earlier and gets a super fast raven to deny protoss observers scouting your base.
Between the two, Gretorp's build is more robust than avilo's build. The avilo build has a small timing window where the terran is slightly vulnerable before the raven gets 100 energy for PDD. Gretorp's build doesn't seem to have any timing weaknesses at all.
Yeah Gretorp you should probably upload it to your own channel lol. Or use BlipTV they have a great website over there by which you can upload more than 10 minutes of video.
Getrop is my fav livestream no doubt. Keep up the great work.
Here are my comments to your build, if I may:
IMO, Getrop's build is very weak to 4 warpgate zealot/sentry/stalker push. If they just turn on their guardian shields before attacking, you are totally F'ed. Marines completely blow against anything under the guardian shield. They going from 5 damage to 3 damage per shot against zealot/stalker armor.
Gotta love your stream, so I'll be watching these =) Link from MU seems to be unavailable, so I'm downloading from the mediafire link AraqirG posted above.
I've seen you working on the build a little in the stream, and it seemed awesome. Really want to see this in an "episode" =P
On May 05 2010 05:36 link0 wrote: Getrop is my fav livestream no doubt. Keep up the great work.
Here are my comments to your build, if I may:
IMO, Getrop's build is very weak to 4 warpgate zealot/sentry/stalker push. If they just turn on their guardian shields before attacking, you are totally F'ed. Marines completely blow against anything under the guardian shield. They going from 5 damage to 3 damage per shot against zealot/stalker armor.
I've come up with a counter to this!!! :-) ghost go out emp and 1 shot kill sentries with headshot gg!
And about the sound ; I have terrible speakers, but with VLC and earphones i could play on half volume and hear you lound and clearly. About the same as when i stream, soundwise..
yeah it's weird, I can have my settings for sound on really low and can hear myself perfect, so i don't know what is wrong with it all. It's just for everyone else, they cannot hear me but in my spekaers they're perfect.
For the next episode i'm going to take questions from this, and talk over them, and then i'll go over new stuff. If you have any questions answer away!
On the video itself, well, the volume is too low (had to boost to 400% on VLC, and even still it was too low), and the pace of it should be a little faster, i.e., having stuff happening on screen most of the time (not leaving a paused game during the intro), and I actually watched a good chunk of it in fast forward 1.5x with no problem.
On everything else, though, it was awesome: great arguments, replays, smooth recording, everything =). A few little misclicks (i.e. jumping the replay) but those got corrected very fast.
Really awesome to watch =)
It still left me one question about the build though: it does seem robust against warpgates and robos, but I'm still not so sure about the voidrays themselves: The thing is, the voidray's shields are meant to let they charge their beams. Once the beams are up, you can harass in multiple ways, pick off a refinery, kill SCVs, even addons, etc... So if P spots ghosts, can't P just turn one voidray into the other outside vision range until the beams are charged up and then attack? Or maybe turn them into hallucinations to charge the beams (if you used these for i.e. scouting phoenix).
There should still be enough shields that you need the EMP to deal with them effectively, but then the ghost's damage vs. the voidray's damage is minimised.
What I mean is: wouldn't a single well defended sensor tower instead be of more use than a large number of ghosts?
Gretorp beat me the other day. I was trying to clown him in TvT because I'm terrible [especially at TvT!] and I got bopped.
In other news, the video ended for me when you were mining with your first scvs =p what's up? @brocoli The ghosts use EMP to get rid of the shields. That way the marines can take down void rays, in the normal case, the marines take down the shields, the void rays pick off some marines and then retreat and regen. This way, you are guaranteed to weaken the void ray and so the harass is not nearly as strong. Ghost/marine is very obviously far better vs void rays than marine/marauder and saves tech to vikings. Ghosts are great vs sentries and zealots too, the natural followup from void rays to take down the marines and guardian shield.
in McCrank's replays it seems the charge zealots hurt him a lot because they tear through the marines. Did you face any of that Gretorp and any suggestions?
On May 05 2010 07:54 Nerdrage wrote: in McCrank's replays it seems the charge zealots hurt him a lot because they tear through the marines. Did you face any of that Gretorp and any suggestions?
Also, enjoyed your streams and episode 1! Thanks.
Gotta keep in mind, gretorp's details this build as an opening. That is, once you get to the mid/lategame you are obviously going to move on to stronger/different tech, you dont have to stick with rines and ghosts the entire game. He goes over this a little bit at the end of the episode.
Yah I know, just wondering since that toss went 4 gate into twilight council (charge) and pushed at 9 minutes. Is that midgame once advanced buildings come out? Guess needed to scout that. I'm not very knowledgeable, so pardon me pls
Kinda late to this party, but gotta say..Amazing vid. Been having troubles with void rays, and this just makes perfect sense. Can't wait for the next episode.
@Slayer91> I understand that, Gret showed that really well ; what I'm saying is that once P sees the ghosts he can just say "Oh well, ok, I won't have shields anyway", and charge the rays by attacking the void rays themselves, just outside vision range behind the base.
This will consume about 2/3 of their shields and is easy to do with the 2 initial voids. Then, with charged beams and 1/3 shields still up, they can toast SCVs / MULEs / Depots / maybe a few rines, and run away, regen, repeat.
So basically, they don't need to stay a lot of time vulnerable over the base since they have higher DPS, they still have some shields to resist a few marine shots, maybe 1 ghost shot; and EMP will be as effective as before, which is bad since the voidrays are more effective this way.
I asked about the sensor tower because it feels worth investigating: with a single tower in your base you can cut by a lot on the amount of troops defending, specially on those valuable ghosts. With this, you can cut a little on the number of rax too, which makes the opener even more flexible. Finally, the ebay is no big deal, since you'll still rely heavily on bio for the upgrades to be worth it.
i'm a frequent reader but not an active poster on TL but i watched this one and ejoyed it very much but i do have a question, since you are getting ghosts from 2 or so barracks at a max because of all the gas and rest of the baracks you get marines
why don't you get any reactor on those baracks? you do have minerals to keep all those baracks with reactors on going for most of the game.
is it because of it takes so long to make and it just more effective getting new baracks instead so you can continue pumping marines meanwhile or?
On May 05 2010 09:34 fungr wrote: i'm a frequent reader but not an active poster on TL but i watched this one and ejoyed it very much but i do have a question, since you are getting ghosts from 2 or so barracks at a max because of all the gas and rest of the baracks you get marines
why don't you get any reactor on those baracks? you do have minerals to keep all those baracks with reactors on going for most of the game.
is it because of it takes so long to make and it just more effective getting new baracks instead so you can continue pumping marines meanwhile or?
I was curious about this too. I normally get reactors on any rax that I will be pumping straight marines from. Is it more effective to just lay down another rax instead of a reactor?
Tried it lots against my friend who's admittedly worse than me, and a bit in 2v2 as well and I have to agree with the whole "works alot better than you'd expect" thing. I don't know about colossi (although I think there's more than enough time to switch to vikings if you have to), but everything else really does get dealt with by this. Still haven't played a great protoss to really test things, but in regards to guardian shield: it's alot less of an issue than you'd think. Remember that ghosts do 20 damage to light, so if you EMP a sentry it gets taken down by 2 ghosts and a marine in one shot. Sentries absolutely melt against this, even when they get guardian shield up beforehand. The same holds for chargelots. They do some damage, but stimmed marines + ghosts will rip through them. And reactors on barracks is probably a not too great idea. Reactors are 50 gas 50 minerals (I think), whereas a new rax are 150 min. Both are the same build time too I think. Plus if you put a reactor on a barracks you can't build from it for the reactor build time.
Anyways, just a few observations about ghost/marine. I encourage the sceptics to give it a shot^^ i's niice
Fast ghosts is something I've been doing for about the past week in my TvP's, and I've had great success. I would suggest getting cloak researched, and if you see the protoss is going robo tech, cancel researching cloak. It's a long upgrade, so you have plenty of time to check.
If the protoss goes for 4 gate or void ray, they wont have observers, and a single cloaked ghost can be sent in to their economy and shut it down. Only costs 150/150 to do this, and you continue on with the rest of your build as you see fit
For the person saying 4 gate can shut down the ghost/marine: You can also use the cloaked ghosts defensively; sure you may lose all of your marines and maybe a supply depot, but your cloaked ghosts are doing bonus damage to light the entire time and you'll easily survive.
I was just wondering (as a protoss player) what you've found to be effective so far against you're build (If you're willing to share your secrets)?
One counter I thought of so far is doing using the stargate for phoenixes rather than voidrays. You can use graviton beam to pickup the ghosts or make them use their EMPs on the phoenixes before engaging with the rest of the army. This would be a micro battle just like fighting sentries with guardian shield, though, I guess. Marines would be trying to snipe down the phoenixes while the toss army barrels down on the terran army releasing the ghosts so they can EMP.
I chuckled when you made the "knight on the rim is grim" analogy. Great.
Thanks for sharing an innovative and really good build order. Well explained. Very well done putting up the three main protoss builds, methodical and professionally done.
Watched parts of your first episode. VERY intriguing build and unit composition. I might even say 2 rax marine/ghost >>>> reactor on 2nd rax + facts would be even stronger. The unit that would concern me the most with ghost/marine obviously is the stalker and marine/ghost/tank demolishes stalkers so fast. Tanks also do well vs the inevitable coli or HT switch. My only concern is dealing with chargelots so perhaps transitioning to more of a hybrid biomech build marine/ghost/tank/hellion would be pretty universally strong.
I just think in general the 2 rax marine/ghost army is pretty strong as an opener - surprisingly strong. You also have EMP for detection vs DTs which would otherwise completely hard counter this build.
Overall I'm impressed and intrigued.
Also a note: I did some testing of my own and discovered that thors now do not beat voidrays 1 on 1 (they used to before the voidray/thor changes). However, en masse voidrays get DEMOLISHED by thors. I think scv repair + a few marines should be sufficient to beat voidrays if you go thors though until you get a good mass. Thors are weakest vs chargelots/immortals, units which will not be out quickly vs voidrays. The trick is can you open thors reactionally in time, or can you open them blindly and not die/be at a disadvantage to non voidray builds? Perhaps you could look into that some.
Lastly, I'd like to see how this holds up to 4/5 warpgate allins. I worry that with proper micro protoss will just overwhelm you.
On May 05 2010 09:37 TheNikeYork wrote: I was curious about this too. I normally get reactors on any rax that I will be pumping straight marines from. Is it more effective to just lay down another rax instead of a reactor?
I feel like this is a change that happened in patch 6, where the tech lab cost got dropped, and the reactor build time got increased. Prior to then, the advantage of the reactor over a 2nd barracks was primarily the build time--25 seconds as opposed to 60 for a new barracks. The difference is only 10 seconds as of patch 6, and since the reactor isn't as useful on other buildings in TvP (it's WAY early to get it for the Starport, and Marine/Hellion pump is kind of an awkward unit composition), the added versatility of another Barracks (can be lifted for scouting, or added with a Tech Lab to produce Marauders or Ghosts depending on unit composition) outweighs the 10 seconds and some minerals you save on the reactor.
well articulated commentary. great build. i'd definitely like to throw in a fast raven and one or a few medivac or banshee for support in there and then go aggressive early off of 1 base into expand.
Very nice video but the sound was super low: I had to crank all my settings to the max to hear your voice and then my windows warnings scared the living shit out of me.
Been trying this build on ~1500 rating plat EU and it works well. Not 100% on all the timings yet but its truly a suprisingly strong build early which makes most tosses just suicide their first army and then lose later.
On May 05 2010 18:11 TheYango wrote: I feel like this is a change that happened in patch 6, where the tech lab cost got dropped, and the reactor build time got increased. Prior to then, the advantage of the reactor over a 2nd barracks was primarily the build time--25 seconds as opposed to 60 for a new barracks. The difference is only 10 seconds as of patch 6, and since the reactor isn't as useful on other buildings in TvP (it's WAY early to get it for the Starport, and Marine/Hellion pump is kind of an awkward unit composition), the added versatility of another Barracks (can be lifted for scouting, or added with a Tech Lab to produce Marauders or Ghosts depending on unit composition) outweighs the 10 seconds and some minerals you save on the reactor.
I'm not sure that I'd say a reactor saves you any time at all, since you can be producing marines while you build a second barracks, but not while you build a reactor. So you end up with 30 seconds less production time by building a reactor instead of a second barracks. So that's more than a whole marine extra by not building the reactor.
in my opinion, getting a rax is better. the gas it takes to get the reactor is slightly detrimental, but it's just the fact you have to wait while producing nothing and limited to marines when going the reactor, where as with getting another rax, you can produce units and you have the ability to put on tech labs to be producing marauders. Reactor never has that ability. If the opposing player is going mass stalkers, they've negated your reactor
tried this build several times now and I got so bopped using it :-( I only won once because my opponent let all his units get blanketed by two EMP's, which is a coppar league misstake.
I mean realisticlly there is no way to stop him from getting atleast one guardian shield up. just wont happen, unless he clumps all his sentrys in one little box out front. Just get overrun by zealot sentry/stalker so hard I dunno. I think most of the imba in this matchup is because of the sentry, its just the best unit in the game for its low tech and cost combined with three _AWSOME_ abilities and btw it can fight like a marine also for same cost :-) huk?~~
edit: oh yea when one protoss tried the voidray abuse I also lost because he harassed me so much with them 7 range vs 5 huk...
this was on kulas ravine he just took out my refinary, my expansion, a supply depot etc.. stopped me from mining completly at my expansion just be sitting above with superior range outside marine range...fuck I have to throw 29 marines at them and stim them + EMP before contact for me to have a shot at taking one out..meanwhile he expands and builds 9 gateways just a -move my base with zealotsentrystalker
On May 05 2010 22:03 DminusTerran wrote: There were a couple of times I noticed where you could have finished off high value units with a snipe. I realize letting energy mass up for lots of emp takes priority, but if it's only going to take one snipe to finish off a retreating ray or colo that's well worth it in my opinion. Kinda seems like some limited snipe usage could make this opening even stronger. Was there any reason you weren't using snipe on rays or colossi under 45 health?
On May 05 2010 22:16 Gretorp wrote: in my opinion, getting a rax is better. the gas it takes to get the reactor is slightly detrimental, but it's just the fact you have to wait while producing nothing and limited to marines when going the reactor, where as with getting another rax, you can produce units and you have the ability to put on tech labs to be producing marauders. Reactor never has that ability. If the opposing player is going mass stalkers, they've negated your reactor
Ahh. That makes a lot of sense. Might change a few of the ways I play.
basically toss went 3 gate robo. he attacks at around 8 minutes. i EMP all his stuff. then he backs off. regens his shield and warps in more units. then he attacks with near full shields and all my ghost are out of energy. wasn't even close.
at the point he attacked i had 3(1 just popped and didn't make the battle) ghosts 7 marines and 1 marauder + 1 bunker. i figured i'd must have messed up somewhere since i had so little. i checked gretorp's replays. he had about the same. i tried to really get the build order right in a custom game. 3 ghosts 11 marines 1 marauder at 8 minute mark. but the game i had 7 marines the battle wasn't even close. he just walked over it all. doubt 4 more marines and maybe 1 more EMP would make a big enough difference.
can someone please show me a replay when you are defending 4 gate and 3 gate robo "all in" with this?
Just listened to the follow up. Amazing again. Helps clear up late game a lot. How do you think this build would fair vs zerg? Instead of using EMP, using sniper round. Any thoughts?
The ghost build is incredibly good, it allows for 2 fast orbital command, safe against fast void ray, other rush strats can be held with emp and bunkers. Basically I LOVE this build.
I have only lost 1 TvP since I started using this, out of about 10. I prefer a reaper opening with transition into ghost/marine then expand, then second gas. For reference I am 1570 on US server, first in plat 33.
On May 05 2010 05:36 link0 wrote: Getrop is my fav livestream no doubt. Keep up the great work.
Here are my comments to your build, if I may:
IMO, Getrop's build is very weak to 4 warpgate zealot/sentry/stalker push. If they just turn on their guardian shields before attacking, you are totally F'ed. Marines completely blow against anything under the guardian shield. They going from 5 damage to 3 damage per shot against zealot/stalker armor.
well, I would think ideally you EMP the sentries though it is hard to vs insta-cast forcefields, but it's just as hard as them with insta-cast EMPS
Is volume really low for anyone else in that video?
Also, whoever was asking about vs Zerg.
Starting off with Factory Reactor Hellions and then adding ghosts is brutal for Zerg. They have to scramble to deal with the hellions and before you know it, nukes.
Not to mention everything is biological and snipe is just nuts. 10 range, instant 45 dmg. Very effective.
On May 07 2010 03:40 epik151 wrote: Is volume really low for anyone else in that video?
Also, whoever was asking about vs Zerg.
Starting off with Factory Reactor Hellions and then adding ghosts is brutal for Zerg. They have to scramble to deal with the hellions and before you know it, nukes.
Not to mention everything is biological and snipe is just nuts. 10 range, instant 45 dmg. Very effective.
Yeah the volume was complained about a lot. He realizes it and plans to fix it. He did in the follow up audio.
the ghost pvt build seems to fail completely if the protoss goes for halucinations, so you have to go for an eng bay + turret pretty much every time cause halucination is hard to scout, which will slow you down enough to die against any 4 gate or a robotics build.
or if the protoss waits for 3-4 void rays and a good ground army to attack at the same time. he'll just focus the bunkers with void rays, both killing your main defensive attribute and charging up his attack.
God, I have to give maaaaad +1 love for this. Gretorp Ghost+marine opening is the super-solid TvP opening I was dying for.
Excellent presentation for me. Maybe not for everybody, such as for a player who couldn't really appreciate the explanation of the current problem Terran was dealing with in TvP, but for me as a Terran player this was right at my level and exactly what I was looking for. So far I've been expanding first over second gas. I've not run into much of any protoss that's made any adaptions for this very solid build, although every single one of them make an effort to focus fire out my ghosts, so all of my losses thus far while using have been due to very shoddy macro work on my part.
My biggest problem with this is that some protoss are already aware of the chance for a ghost+marine opening and either try a very fast DT rush right after a scan or go for colossi almost immediatelly.It's still doable,but people shouldn't expect an auto-win.And call me old-fashioned,but i still build 2-3 vikings whenever i see a 2nd extractor.
ye a second assimilator (extractors are zerg..) is a dead giveaway that something is up, although he might fake you out so its not written in stone.
I've tried this build (or my own variation of it, I dont like to steal build orders) much more now, seems 75% of the top EU players are protoss at the moment, atleast I get them 75% of the games now. and when Ive won its because the protoss hasnt really reacted to my composition at all, just mained the same units, many sentrys stalker zealot immortals, which all are wiped silly by early ghosts, except for an early timing push which I still find pretty darn hard.. right about the time I have my first ghost and he has an EMP.
basiclly this opening is good, it allows you to transition into whatever you want, and keep the protoss on their feet. instead of just playing the defendgame.
Ive watched several gretorp reps from his replaypack and every time they do voidray he owns them silly.. but whenever I try it I have a lot more problems, I still think this build is pretty weak to voidray harassment, maybe I still just suck but gretorp seldom does the vikings and still punishes the protoss every time, I just get kept in my base while he harasses me silly and expands or pushes out with throngs of zealots and stalkers.
gretorp you make it look to easy, plz be a little worse at the game =) plz
On May 07 2010 23:34 WiljushkA wrote: the ghost pvt build seems to fail completely if the protoss goes for halucinations, so you have to go for an eng bay + turret pretty much every time cause halucination is hard to scout, which will slow you down enough to die against any 4 gate or a robotics build.
Explain why a hallucination build is hard to deal with?
How do you feel Gretorp about your build with respect to 4 warp gate pushes. It doesn't feel very robust against that open. How do you feel things went in your series in the Zotac in TvP?
On May 07 2010 23:34 WiljushkA wrote: the ghost pvt build seems to fail completely if the protoss goes for halucinations, so you have to go for an eng bay + turret pretty much every time cause halucination is hard to scout, which will slow you down enough to die against any 4 gate or a robotics build.
Explain why a hallucination build is hard to deal with?
cause your units keep shooting his 5+ hallucinated colossi or however many other units he decides to hallucinate? emp doesnt turn off hallucinations, and he doesnt summon them in sight range of your ghosts, so you cant just emp sentries beforehand. and i tried saving 2 scans, unbelievably but the battles usually lasts longer than that. so you have to build an eng bay + turret, which just makes you EXTREMELY vulnerable to any normal ground allin that doesnt involve hallucinations.
and again, i just doubt the build's ability to stop any 4gate push by a semi-competent player, i started using the ghost build around 1500 plat and it worked fine, but as i got to 1700 i now keep losing against any 4gate they decide to do.
On May 07 2010 23:34 WiljushkA wrote: the ghost pvt build seems to fail completely if the protoss goes for halucinations, so you have to go for an eng bay + turret pretty much every time cause halucination is hard to scout, which will slow you down enough to die against any 4 gate or a robotics build.
Explain why a hallucination build is hard to deal with?
cause your units keep shooting his 5+ hallucinated colossi or however many other units he decides to hallucinate? emp doesnt turn off hallucinations, and he doesnt summon them in sight range of your ghosts, so you cant just emp sentries beforehand. and i tried saving 2 scans, unbelievably but the battles usually lasts longer than that. so you have to build an eng bay + turret, which just makes you EXTREMELY vulnerable to any normal ground allin that doesnt involve hallucinations.
and again, i just doubt the build's ability to stop any 4gate push by a semi-competent player, i started using the ghost build around 1500 plat and it worked fine, but as i got to 1700 i now keep losing against any 4gate they decide to do.
Thank you. I wasn't aware of this. I haven't faced this build, and simply assumed that hallucination responded to EMP the same way it responded to other forms of detection--revealing which units are fake.
On May 07 2010 23:34 WiljushkA wrote: the ghost pvt build seems to fail completely if the protoss goes for halucinations, so you have to go for an eng bay + turret pretty much every time cause halucination is hard to scout, which will slow you down enough to die against any 4 gate or a robotics build.
Explain why a hallucination build is hard to deal with?
cause your units keep shooting his 5+ hallucinated colossi or however many other units he decides to hallucinate? emp doesnt turn off hallucinations, and he doesnt summon them in sight range of your ghosts, so you cant just emp sentries beforehand. and i tried saving 2 scans, unbelievably but the battles usually lasts longer than that. so you have to build an eng bay + turret, which just makes you EXTREMELY vulnerable to any normal ground allin that doesnt involve hallucinations.
and again, i just doubt the build's ability to stop any 4gate push by a semi-competent player, i started using the ghost build around 1500 plat and it worked fine, but as i got to 1700 i now keep losing against any 4gate they decide to do.
not only will it stop a 4gate rush.. but it will crush it.. also.. if you know he is hallucinated colossi why not just.. i dont know.. Not attack them? God forbid a player to actually control there units in sc2 >_> i just make bunkers and laugh when protoss goes for the all-in --;
id really like to see a rep/vid of it stopping a 4 gate rush.
this isnt a "try and proove me wrong post", i just want to see someone deal with a decent 4 gate push cause im obviously doing something wrong if you think its easy to stop and i just keep dying to it.
just bunker up and you're fine. 5 warp gates is what's hard. I will be releasing my 2nd episode sometime this week. I'll finish up on that openning, and then moove to the next topic!
On May 11 2010 05:33 MarCoon wrote: You can make as many bunkers as you want, since you can salvage them again :o
yeah you can obviously salvage them but until you do they are gonna be holding your money and affecting what you can build by a lot. economy in sc was never about if you can get a lot money in one big chunk LATER...
On May 11 2010 05:45 WiljushkA wrote: yeah you can obviously salvage them but until you do they are gonna be holding your money and affecting what you can build by a lot. economy in sc was never about if you can get a lot money in one big chunk LATER...
More minerals are only useful insofar as what you were going to do with it. What could you possibly spend the money you put into bunkers on:
1) Expansions? You just took one reasonably early. Not going to need another one that soon, especially against a build as aggressive as 4gate. 2) Units? Only insofar as they're for defense, and bunkers are being built for the same purpose. 3) Tech? Reasonable, but seeing as you're up to ghosts, and he's 4gating, you're not exactly behind on tech, and are not hard pressed to tech up before you secure your economic lead with your expansion.
Seemingly, I don't get it. I had one marauders and almost all my ressources spend in unites (a bit less than 8 minute game, I had 4 rax, an expansion, only 1 Marauder and I think 4 ghosts), I had all sentries EMPed before they could do anything (ok, just saw he had a guardian shield up before he went in) and one bunker. I got steamrolled badly. Common what is this...
Anyone tell me please, what went wrong? x_x I think I had one EMP too late for a zealot, apart from that I can't find much if I didn't do any mayor mistake in BO?
Btw I do not want to say that mass marauders would've performed better, I mean its TvP.
Having great success with this build in early game but the transition kills me. It just seems P can transition easier (colossi or HT) and have a massive timing window to beat my ass like a new fish in prison.
On May 11 2010 05:32 WiljushkA wrote: how many bunkers we talking about?
I've been getting away with one well placed one and balancing out marine and marauder. Load them with marines, they're the ones that need the range boost and the help surviving. Rock back doors make it a lot harder though.
A few more days of waiting is a small price to pay to bask in the handsome warmth of Gretorp boppin clowns. Please tell me though that you address the 5 gate rush in that 30min intro. Because watching you get 3-1 in the (craft cup?) tourrnament doing your build really gave me pause. Because, besides Void Ray openers, 5 gates is another very common opener.
On May 12 2010 13:34 Ignite wrote: Just lost to 5 gate mass stalker
I've lost to mass stalker + blink as well using this build, but It's due to me thinking I could hold it off without starting to mass marauder to counter.
Even when using Gretorp's build as a guide you still have to adapt to what your opponent is doing.
it would take probably double the time for me to do it live because of getting the replays, and junk. I just have no reliable time during the weeks to be able to do it live sorry TT
Gretorp you gotta make it exclusive for terran IMO, I've been trying it today, and all the P know what I'm doing and just rush Colossus, once they get that all those marines/ghost seem useless ^^.
TBH the first game if he got Col's before he expanded, like if he had two before you went in, I think he would have fended you off easily.
But thanks for the build, I do like it, just gotta be carefull for DT proxies, I think only way to distinguish it is if they are making sentries or not with 3-4 warpgates and no robotics.
Hey Gretorp, I fancy your opening and use it a lot in TvP. I used to tear up in with this opening against some friends but now they started to make really quick collosi and just tear through my marine heavy army. I've tried to put up pressure earlier since he was teching heavily but with no success. Is it just poor micro or is this fast collosi a really solid play against marine/ghost opening?
if they make collo, go lol them with a timing push silly ;-) they get fast robo, meaning not a lot of gate + probably immortal, which is crap against marine ghost.
In regard to Episode 2, in TVT, I think that a bunker at your ramp along with a tank counters this timing push if I'm not mistaken. I havent tested this, so I may be wrong. however, if I recall correctly I think someone's done this push against me where I went FE after factory and then techlab and a tank, and it held up nicely.
On May 15 2010 21:48 wonksaggin wrote: In regard to Episode 2, in TVT, I think that a bunker at your ramp along with a tank counters this timing push if I'm not mistaken. I havent tested this, so I may be wrong. however, if I recall correctly I think someone's done this push against me where I went FE after factory and then techlab and a tank, and it held up nicely.
I've tested this build a decent amount, and if the other T has a tank + bunker I usually keep my marines back and just harass the mineral line with my banshee. Also, the other Terran has to be very worried about me sniping the Tank as well, so his marines would have to be very spread out to cover all areas.
What's your opinion on using snipe against the zealots after you have successfully EMP'd the Protoss army? I did some testing with that Custom map that allows you to recreate battle scenarios and found that snipe on the zealots is excellent at cleaning them up. As you emphasize, the zealots are the biggest threat when defending these pushes damage wise; and with good emp + snipe (in addition to the dps from your marines), the zealots melt away incredibly fast.
What's your opinion on using snipe against the zealots after you have successfully EMP'd the Protoss army? I did some testing with that Custom map that allows you to recreate battle scenarios and found that snipe on the zealots is excellent at cleaning them up. As you emphasize, the zealots are the biggest threat when defending these pushes damage wise; and with good emp + snipe (in addition to the dps from your marines), the zealots melt away incredibly fast.
I was wondering, using your build for TvP, if you scout P going voidrays or 4 warpgate push, would it be viable to get the cloak upgrade for ghosts asap since he won't have any detection? I can see them working sort of like DTs.
Another thing that interests me is transitioning. When would you decide to transition to other tech and also what tech? Mass marauders with medivac/viking support is obvious but what about factory units? Also if the enemy decides to tech to colossus or storm and we miss the early timing push, what would be the best course of action?
Can you talk a bit about deviations(if any) with respect to the builds, specifically ghost pvt dealing with cheese,or say zealot rushes. It seems like no block, and relatively later scouting makes it a bit vulnerable, unless the solution is just better micro / scvs.
Gretorp, it would be nice if you uploaded some of your TvT replays where you use that early gas to banshee build you talked about in your 2nd episode ;3
Gretorp do you have any recommendations on how a Protoss should respond to an opponent who opens with your ghost/marine build? I've had some difficulty in figuring out the best way to handle it as toss. You've demonstrated how it can negate pretty much every form of early aggression/push that Protoss is doing right now (4/5 Gate, Immortals, Voidrays) and allows the Terran to secure a relatively early expansion. The best I can seem to do is break even with a Terran who opens with this build by expanding myself and massing gateway units then teching into collosus.
Are there any openings or unit compositions that you've had trouble dealing with when you open ghost/marine?
EDIT - To clarify: I'm not looking for some sort of all-in one base push or w/e to win the match in the first 15 minutes. I'm looking for a reasonably safe opening that can keep me alive and allow me to transition into a strong mid-game.
On May 17 2010 07:32 Anteloptics wrote: Gretorp do you have any recommendations on how a Protoss should respond to an opponent who opens with your ghost/marine build? I've had some difficulty in figuring out the best way to handle it as toss. You've demonstrated how it can negate pretty much every form of early aggression/push that Protoss is doing right now (4/5 Gate, Immortals, Voidrays) and allows the Terran to secure a relatively early expansion. The best I can seem to do is break even with a Terran who opens with this build by expanding myself and massing gateway units then teching into collosus.
Are there any openings or unit compositions that you've had trouble dealing with when you open ghost/marine?
EDIT - To clarify: I'm not looking for some sort of all-in one base push or w/e to win the match in the first 15 minutes. I'm looking for a reasonably safe opening that can keep me alive and allow me to transition into a strong mid-game.
p is gonna just have to play a more straight up game :-O!
Gretorp how do you micro ghost marine with 1-2 marauders vs a 3 gate build, I EMP and focus zealots first like in the video, and they melt, but i usually lose too much during this period of time even though I am microing and the zeals hardly ever hit my rines before dying, the stalkers rip them apart so my army becomes so small and then his remaining stalker/sentry is enough to overpower me. Am I not microing right? Is my macro probably not perfect and therefore I have a smaller army? I did the BO you showed in the Ghost Marine video.
How should I be scouting to see if he's gone for a quick colossi?Reapers?Scans? Also,the new mike is pure awesome. Also #2,you should start naming your builds!
Thank you Gretorp <3 Im only in copper but i have been having problems with void rays. I saw this and tried it out, im still in copper mind you so it might not be super good execution though. Replay below if anyone want to help me improve my game some more Thanks alot again. Since this is my first post i might aswell introduce myself, my name is Henrik, im from sweden, english isent my first language as you might have figured out by now (with all the spelling errors) 28 years old :O and im a student, old one + Show Spoiler +
So Gretorp, I've been using your build and your thoughts and pointers have overall been very helpful to may TvP playstyle. Thanks for the enlighting inputs. (I think he should have been in the HDH Invitational )
[Q] Anyway, I ran into a game-mechanic situation, which was kinda ...surprising: I saw an observer moving across my army and wanted to get rid of it. Normally I just scan but due to the lack of spare energy on my OC's, I used EMP since it reveals cloacked units... right? It didn't work. Either this is a bug (or intended) or my micro is just too clumsy to hit a moving observer with 2 EMP's. Anybody knows this for sure (happened on my last game last night and I can't test it right away)?
You have to target below the observer. In order to find the right position, select one of your flying units and observe the circle below it. It is the position of the unit and where you have to aim your emp.
@fafalecureuil: yeah right... same thing with psi storm & fungal growth... thanks! I fergot that porbably because I couldn't select the obs and then raged when I wasted 2 EMP's...
I feel quite stupid now that you point out the facts that I already know...
Wow, I watched your first two episodes, and they were pretty freaking awesome. I'm going to mass ghosts every TvP game now, lol. Good luck and I look forward to your future casts.
Great episode. My only comment will be that in Episode 2, it seems like you recorded it in two takes. The first take about TvP and the second about TvT. Whatever you did with your mic in the TvP part was WAY better than the TvT part. However, both times, the mic was way better than Episode 1. Just letting you know how things sounded.
Otherwise very interesting. I would recommend you look at the D9D #118 for TLO's new build for TvZ. He claims that he has "no idea how he'd lose with it." He seems really confident about it. Definitely something for you to look into for Episode 3!
are you sure you don't mean the mic is the other way around??? I hear it and the first mic sounds horridddd. btw it took me like 100 takes to do this episode :O!
I'm only doing my style of play and backing all my style up with theory. I have my own builds for every MU, and I have been doing these for a while now.
On May 19 2010 00:16 Gretorp wrote: are you sure you don't mean the mic is the other way around??? I hear it and the first mic sounds horridddd. btw it took me like 100 takes to do this episode :O!
I'm only doing my style of play and backing all my style up with theory. I have my own builds for every MU, and I have been doing these for a while now.
Neither one sounds bad, to me. It was a bit odd on the second part, though. Wasn't expecting such a big change. Sounded really different from the first.
On May 19 2010 00:16 Gretorp wrote: are you sure you don't mean the mic is the other way around??? I hear it and the first mic sounds horridddd. btw it took me like 100 takes to do this episode :O!
I'm only doing my style of play and backing all my style up with theory. I have my own builds for every MU, and I have been doing these for a while now.
Ok, I went back and listened more closely to it. You can clearly tell the second mic is better. The sound quality is worlds better. I guess what I meant is that the second mic made you sound much different than I thought after listening to your stream and to the EU vs Asia cast. I think it's just cause the second section is a little softer, and once I turn the volume up much higher in part 2 I hear things more clearly. And now that you explain the difference in the mics, I can hear the difference. Sorry about a false alarm.
Also, the comment about TLO's game wasn't meant to be a suggestion for you to cover it during your episodes. I very much enjoy seeing your unique approach to creating builds for MUs, but I just suggested it as a resource for you to view and enjoy in case there were any interesting folds that might synthesize well into your current builds.
Hope it helps, thanks for the stream and the vids. A lot to chew on!
Gretorp how do you handle people who do very aggressive early marauder openings? People that send their first few marauders over and continue streaming them towards your base? With only 1 barracks I feel like it's difficult to keep a big enough marine count and they eventually get to 5-8 marauders or so and then either kill me or do a LOT of damage. A hellion or tank popping out doesn't help versus this type of play, and it shows up way before the banshee is anywhere close to being done.
Also, a second opening I'm having issues with is when they go aggressive bio (often marauder, but not always marauder sometimes it's a mix of marines and marauders), with a couple tanks and a fast viking, with the intent to camp out just outside your natural so that their tanks can hit your CC? I have a lot of trouble with this as well since the banshee can't get anything done with the viking sitting there, leaving me with a weaker ground force and a CC I can't expand with. I find it difficult to scout this before it happens.
In any case, I loved the episode and thought it was very informative, keep up the good work.
I just would like to put this out there that watching your stream and episodes have made me a 256.666% better terran. I admire how you try to get away with the least amount of effort in trying to counter something. I'm finally able to beat my friend who is a gold rank player consistently.
Thank you so much for the information. You must be a fairly avid chess player with all your terminology.
In the TvT matchup, I got pushed on with marines + a tank right around the time my banshee hit the field. How do I fend this off? By that time I generally only have a few marines and with siege mode he can destroy me.
I'd love to hear your take on TvZ. I've seen you play it on your stream and you tend to reaper harass as an opening. Any thoughts on the TLO opening? I feel like it gives you the same options as TvT (one of each building to counter based on your scouting).
Not having much luck with the marine/ghost tvp open - it feels strong versus void rays, but about the same as a standard bio opening to me if they do any other opening besides void rays. I never feel like I have a better than 50/50 advantage unless they throw units away mindlessly. I'll give it some more practice as it is entirely possible I'm doing it wrong, but I'm having trouble finding reasons to choose it over a 1/1/1 open tvp.
On May 21 2010 13:16 BigOleDonkey wrote: Not having much luck with the marine/ghost tvp open - it feels strong versus void rays, but about the same as a standard bio opening to me if they do any other opening besides void rays. I never feel like I have a better than 50/50 advantage unless they throw units away mindlessly. I'll give it some more practice as it is entirely possible I'm doing it wrong, but I'm having trouble finding reasons to choose it over a 1/1/1 open tvp.
The whole points of the build is to get advantage early on, you could feel that in units you are not ahead but what about economy?, clearly of you follow Gretorp's build almost step by step you probably will have expo a lot faster than protoss, and if protoss expands you clearly will have a timing attack, also remember Gretorp said this build isn't 100% finished and he probably won't upload "finished" strategy, since he wants players to find their unique way of style, as he said on episode 2. F.E have you considered going up to 4 gas after expanding and make a transition into Mech+Ghost, or nuke drops, or MMM/map control/mobility, the idea of the entire Opening is that you CAN transition into anything, but remember its an opening not a BO, for me that is the beauty of SC2, nothing is really "mandatory", you can search new ways of playing or incorporating units, take Gretorp for example, while everyone was using marauder as main unit, he was using it as a support unit, so his unit composition absolutely demolished everything, or even take his TvT opening, "GAS FIRST?, this kid must be crazy, reapers will rape", hey guess what reapers totally blow against this opening. Just remember that the opening is to make your "next step" more viable or flexible, if you feel you can 2 Barracks marauder, Fast Expand and then transition as flexible as before go ahead , no one is forcing you to use marine/ghost. Don't take my reply as flame or hating, just trying to make the point of the build more obvious for you, sorry if i was rude
On May 21 2010 13:16 BigOleDonkey wrote: Not having much luck with the marine/ghost tvp open - it feels strong versus void rays, but about the same as a standard bio opening to me if they do any other opening besides void rays. I never feel like I have a better than 50/50 advantage unless they throw units away mindlessly. I'll give it some more practice as it is entirely possible I'm doing it wrong, but I'm having trouble finding reasons to choose it over a 1/1/1 open tvp.
They're different styles of opening. Gretorp's marine-ghost opening is much more econ-focused and puts down its expansion much earlier. The 1/1/1 opening gets a much later expansion and, while it's more robust against a lot of the more all-in early pressure builds, it relies on being able to do economic damage if the opponent opted for a more macro-focused opening.
hey gretorp, great videos. One thing i want to mention, is that your voice is SERIOUSLY quiet. Like i have to raise the shit out of my speakers to barely hear you :|
Also, does that replay pack contain all the replays that you showed during the episodes?
On May 23 2010 23:30 ZeKk wrote: What's the 1/1/1 opening?
I would guess thats "one of each" that TLO has been using lately. Basically he opens up with rax, factory and starport after which he adds up either of those production buildings depending on his gameplan or what hes opponent is doing. This opening is surprisingly effective if you are know what you are doing.
p.s every time this thread gets bumped i get my hopes up to see a new episode ;/ damn it.
Waiting for that TvZ, I wonder what you will come up with I used ghosts/marines in PvT/ TvT/PvZ with limited success before I saw your episodes, but had troubles with transitioning if I did not win outright. So episode 1b was very enlightening.
On May 23 2010 23:30 ZeKk wrote: What's the 1/1/1 opening?
I would guess thats "one of each" that TLO has been using lately. Basically he opens up with rax, factory and starport after which he adds up either of those production buildings depending on his gameplan or what hes opponent is doing. This opening is surprisingly effective if you are know what you are doing.
p.s every time this thread gets bumped i get my hopes up to see a new episode ;/ damn it.
TLO may (or may not, doesnt really matter who got to it first) have converged on the 1/1/1 opening independently, but Terrans on the Asia server have been using the 1/1/1 opening tons (they really tend to favour more agressive openings).
TvZ plus rants and tangents planning on coming out by Friday latest. Get ready! :-) I'll keep this updated on my status of how far I have completed. My outline and what i'm going to be talking about is already done though :-)
no the controversy was over the fact that am I doing these because I like to or am I doing it to get recognition(Which I have no clue, I didn't go into it looking for recognition but me now realizing that I have been recognized brings it to question), and that makes you think: is it now being fueled by trying to get more or do i still have that same desire to help others? I have to believe it's a bit of both, but It's a tricky situation. :-P
Well however you resolve it morally, just keep making videos because your episodes and your stream are ridiculously helpful for those of us who are not only learning the mechanics of SC2 but also how to think about what we're seeing beyond what is just literally there.
hey gretorp, i notice you hit the help button pretty often. you can disable that by going to "gameplay" in the menu and unchecking the "menu bar clickable" on the right side. thanks for all the terran insight! your ghost build is really useful.
I really wish these episodes were availabe on Youtube, Blip.tv or somewhere else, where they can be streamed for the complete duration - without the necessity to download them
On June 02 2010 05:44 Gretorp wrote: no the controversy was over the fact that am I doing these because I like to or am I doing it to get recognition(Which I have no clue, I didn't go into it looking for recognition but me now realizing that I have been recognized brings it to question), and that makes you think: is it now being fueled by trying to get more or do i still have that same desire to help others? I have to believe it's a bit of both, but It's a tricky situation. :-P
anyway thank you!
Who cares why you're doing it? If you're helping people it doesn't matter if you're doing it for recognition or just because you like to because it's a win:win situation for everyone involved and you should profit from your efforts in whatever way possible because they are solid, great, efforts.
no the controversy was over the fact that am I doing these because I like to or am I doing it to get recognition(Which I have no clue, I didn't go into it looking for recognition but me now realizing that I have been recognized brings it to question), and that makes you think: is it now being fueled by trying to get more or do i still have that same desire to help others? I have to believe it's a bit of both, but It's a tricky situation. :-P
[I didn't hear the spiel.]
There's nothing wrong with obtaining recognition for furthering the understanding of a community and enjoying the compliments that come with helping others; your moral ambiguity stems from how you choose to look at it. If you want to feel guilty, then you'll frame arguments in that light.
One method you can use is to just remember the motivations that caused you to make the original episode. If you can search your original thoughts and you don't remember being driven by e-fame then you shouldn't feel guilty; you're not making people suffer from the production of these casts, so any retrospective feelings about the resulting notoriety or plaudits [depending on how you choose to look at it] are irrelevant.
Are you enjoying what you're doing? Then keep doing it.
NB. A lot of people might propose what I like to term a 'theory-that-fits'. Only you really know why you got into this into the first place. If you chose a reason that was honourable enough and something that you're comfortable with then you can safely ignore [respectfully, of course] side comments.
If you think about it, you could argue in circles all day long about what it's now fueled by. You weren't aware of it before, and since no-one but you knows your original motivations then you can't really 'prove' why you got into this or how you currently feel about it. So it doesn't matter, and I wouldn't bother even contemplating it.
How are we doing Gretorp? Please tell me that it's close, need something to do with the beta down. I don't like this whole "go outside" thing people are talking about.
Wicked! I switched to Terran but I've been frustrated by the Protoss matchup. Thanks for showing such a well-thought-out build. I like the way you think through things so logically. Hopefully the build can be robust in my inferior hands.
Absolutely love the casts, but I'm seriously considering making a Drinking Game out of them. Simply take a drink every time Gretorp says "Robust" or corrects himself when he says "Build".
Hey gretorp, could you give an update on your episode release when you are back. Worldcup is making the wait more bearable, but I'm still too impatient :'(
Hope everything is going fine in gretorp land, and we'll at least see you back streaming/commentating when beta/release is up!
im watching alot of casts. i have 10 commentator in my youtube list watch some livecast and saw all day9 daylies. I only know you from some games i saw with you in other casts. So i downloaded your epsiodes and after i saw them i must say:
Your videos of strategie and examples was the best sc2 cast i seen!
You should sort your stuff bedder. very good short analyses in your youstream acc. sure its not much show and suprise in there and new palyer want to watch battles not a strategie lesson but the information was awesome. Nobody else makes so clear how you make your own build and improve it. Open a blib.tv channel with your casts and produce more! Im sure many people out there will be impressed like i am.
im watching alot of casts. i have 10 commentator in my youtube list watch some livecast and saw all day9 daylies. I only know you from some games i saw with you in other casts. So i downloaded your epsiodes and after i saw them i must say:
Your videos of strategie and examples was the best sc2 cast i seen!
You should sort your stuff bedder. very good short analyses in your youstream acc. sure its not much show and suprise in there and new palyer want to watch battles not a strategie lesson but the information was awesome. Nobody else makes so clear how you make your own build and improve it. Open a blib.tv channel with your casts and produce more! Im sure many people out there will be impressed like i am.
Word! School is out, vacation is over with, the motherfuckin' gretorp is back - hopefully. ep03 plzzzz *beg* ;$
On July 09 2010 10:36 Gretorp wrote: oh no im sorry. I'm new to blip.tv so i apologize. try this : e3
my player have a problem with your format. blib have this problem too i think. you have to watch it with quicktime on blib. and there is no quicktime for linux ( there is one but only for a strange unix clone that dont have many funktions called macOs) so i will watch it on windows later
---
The learning part is not very intressting for someone in my age ^^. but i think for younger people this information is usefull.
On July 09 2010 10:36 Gretorp wrote: oh no im sorry. I'm new to blip.tv so i apologize. try this : e3
my player have a problem with your format. blib have this problem too i think. you have to watch it with quicktime on blib. and there is no quicktime for linux ( there is one but only for a strange unix clone that dont have many funktions called macOs) so i will watch it on windows later
---
The learning part is not very intressting for someone in my age ^^. but i think for younger people this information is usefull.
It's on MP4 format. You can scroll down to download-> Right click "save link as" and open it up later using a media player of your choice. Cheers! Best podcast everrrrr!
It's on MP4 format. You can scroll down to download-> Right click "save link as" and open it up later using a media player of your choice. Cheers! Best podcast everrrrr!
yep found this out until now^^. my player just start it inside the browser if clicked it. ---
done with watching. Great one! --- I totaly understand that the point of ep3 was not the units and the type of harrazz. it was WHY we have to atack the zerg. and how we know how much pressure we have to do.
but here are some technical Questions:
1) in 1 example you go hellions with reaktor in 2 you go with techlab and hellion upgrade. you allready had the techlab for the reaper so it easy to use it for upgrade. but in what situation you choose what way? do you use reactor only for the very fast hellions and upgraded ones in all other?
2.1) you show the pressure with fast reaper and hellion. After this : viking overload hunt , thordrop, mar drops... my question is are you trying to harazz all game long? or do you just harazz until you see a good chance for it or until your sure that he spend enough larva to def and army in beginning? 2.2) the zerg will try to outexp you. your so slow (if you go mech) that its hard to kill his exp. how to hold him small in exp? do you push out or try to hold him small with drops?
2) to bring it to a point: how to hold the z small in middgame?
Finally decided to click this thread. Can't wait for some insight. Thanks for the time, Gretorp.
Edit -- I remember watching your stream and just heard you bitching and QQ'ing, so I didn't visit much after that despite the respect going around the community. After watching Bopping Clowns, I'm tuning in whenever I see it. Brilliant teaching skills, solid play.
Woot go gretorp! I love your handsome voice lolol. And the way you explain the game makes it seem like an actual strategy game rather than a button mashing one! Thanks to you I actively think throughout the course of the game and dont go on auto pilot mode which has also made the game much more enjoyable - thx again - Gretorp clown bopping!
Had to sign up to say thank you - only just picked up sc2 and this was just wonderful insight and really gets me thinking about the game. Can only hope you keep with it
On July 11 2010 02:35 kilika wrote: lol is that you or an imposter?
Woo there I am! Our whole gold league, at least like the top 30 people seem to be people who got dumped into gold and are now stuck because they're competing against people who also shouldn't be in gold .
I know I'm playing vs plat/diamond players with +50% win rate and I'd assume everyone above me is as well.
I know what you feel Gretorp I was placed in gold too, even though I won all my placement matches (except I managed to lose some games in gold because I'm awful and didn't practise while the beta was down :D)
Anyway, I would love to see you analyse the standard mid and late game TvT, you know the viking war and maybe how to move away from it if it's possible...
Is there any place to get more recent, working replays of Gretorp? The old ones on his site don't work with the recent patch. In particular, I want to see his transition from his openings he talks about in his episodes to the mid-game and how to appropriately react to the opponent's tech.
I loved the episode, and your view on the parallels on learning for class and learning in Starcraft, the differences between SC and math and alikes. Very educational, eventhough I'm not a Terran player.
Gretorp I would just like to thank for all the valuable insight that you put on learning theory. The theory on starcraft and everything you go over while you stream.
update! doing Q&A section as well. Sorry episode 4 hasn't come anytime soon, i've been gaming more than creating but I'll try to pump one out before september ends...
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9448/gretorp.jpg)
