There is a serious larva bug. After patch, if you cancel morphing egg, it no longer burst the larva. Therefore, since the maximum larva one hatchery can hold is 3, and when you are morphing some of the eggs, hatchery will "think" that there is less larva than 3, and keep producing more larva.
So, suppose you have 3 larvas, and make 3 drones out of them. While drones are being made, hatchery will continually produce larva, and right after you see that new larva is made, you can just cancel the drones without any cost, and get 1~2 extra larvas.
Result? A hatchery with more than 3 larvas (more and more larvas stack up if you keep doing it) WITHOUT QUEEN.
Yeah, it might not have huge impact in late games, since it requires some tedious micro and using queen is more effective later games, but in EARLY GAMES, it is deadly.
I tested it, and I was able to produce 12 lings in 2:30 mins.
My build order was 10 overlord, 10 pool, and by the time pool was made, I had 6 larvas ready and go.
This bug is really serious, and needs to be fixed. Personally, I don't like the idea of cancelling morphing egg without any cost.
**EDITED** You can make 10 lings in 1:55 min now...
OUCH!! That's brutal... I would say you shouldnt' have told anyone, but ovbiously, it's so easy to notice, and hundreds of people would figure it out quite quickly. Blizzard will probably patch this pretty quick I'd think.
Oh god, that kind of bug needs to be patched up ASAP. Oh god, imagine what the Terran/Protoss players not knowing about this bug will react when they see 12 lings at that timing. :/
the only way to really fix this is to change cancel larva(egg) back to normal...
think about it. what else can blizzard do? i am pretty sure that they realized that when developing the original starcraft. but no one remembered the reason why larva gets destroyed after cancel... happens all the time in developement ^^
Wow good find, and so soon. That's gotta be brutal to be up against. Someone should make a VOD of some good shennanigans with this though while it's around
imo post this on technical support, as they are always checking that iono about suggestions and / or bug reports as much as i see a lot less blue posts
On April 23 2010 12:33 Ftrunkz wrote: holy jesus.... I wonder if this will effect HDH tournament :|. Seriously with 1.5k on the line I would be abusing my ass off with this.
Since it's a pretty well regulated tournament I'd imagine abusing it will be grounds for disqualification.
lol, hundreds of copper league guys will now become platinum cuz of this. gg. there realy is no point to ladder in beta with all of these bug exploits.
On April 23 2010 12:43 Ballistixz wrote: lol, hundreds of copper league guys will now become platinum cuz of this. gg. there realy is no point to ladder in beta with all of these bug exploits.
For some reason I highly doubt that lol.
Has anybody tested to see if there is a limit? (like won't let you get past 5 larva or something) or could you go to 20 if you wanted?
On April 23 2010 12:33 Ftrunkz wrote: holy jesus.... I wonder if this will effect HDH tournament :|. Seriously with 1.5k on the line I would be abusing my ass off with this.
Since it's a pretty well regulated tournament I'd imagine abusing it will be grounds for disqualification.
How would they POSSIBLY regulate this... seriously. It's obviously not a bug, its just an over-looked strategy (much like the warp-gate rush in PvP or the Marine+scv all-in TvP which was practically unstoppable unless you specifically planned to counter it, leaving you at a serious disadvantage against any other build).
Like, what are they going to employ... "No cancling of eggs in the first 5 minutes of the game"...?
On April 23 2010 12:16 h0munkulus wrote: the only way to really fix this is to change cancel larva(egg) back to normal...
think about it. what else can blizzard do?
Actually i can see some fix to this. For example it could be an upgrade, or available only if you have a Lair. I know this sound kinda lame... Maybe the best idea would be to make it possible only if there is a Queen near the Hatchery.
What do you think ?
Anyways i'm not a big fan of this cancel Larva concept but still i'm curious to try it and see how it affect Zerg gameplay.
On April 23 2010 12:33 Ftrunkz wrote: holy jesus.... I wonder if this will effect HDH tournament :|. Seriously with 1.5k on the line I would be abusing my ass off with this.
Since it's a pretty well regulated tournament I'd imagine abusing it will be grounds for disqualification.
How would they POSSIBLY regulate this... seriously. It's obviously not a bug, its just an over-looked strategy (much like the warp-gate rush in PvP or the Marine+scv all-in TvP which was practically unstoppable unless you specifically planned to counter it, leaving you at a serious disadvantage against any other build).
Like, what are they going to employ... "No cancling of eggs in the first 5 minutes of the game"...?
It's likely that every match in that tournament will be broadcast and commentated, so it won't go unnoticed. They also have judges. And it seems obvious that the only really game-breaking usage of this is that crazy Zergling rush.
Before jumping the gun here, has anyone actually tried this in a real game vs someone that knows what he's doing? Doesn't a Terran wall-in or a 12/13 gate at ramp with zealot blockade stop this rather ok? Since this is really hard on the Zergs economy I wonder if it's worth it if a regular econ-game build will be able to stop this without all to many casualties.
On April 23 2010 12:33 Ftrunkz wrote: holy jesus.... I wonder if this will effect HDH tournament :|. Seriously with 1.5k on the line I would be abusing my ass off with this.
Since it's a pretty well regulated tournament I'd imagine abusing it will be grounds for disqualification.
How would they POSSIBLY regulate this... seriously. It's obviously not a bug, its just an over-looked strategy (much like the warp-gate rush in PvP or the Marine+scv all-in TvP which was practically unstoppable unless you specifically planned to counter it, leaving you at a serious disadvantage against any other build).
Like, what are they going to employ... "No cancling of eggs in the first 5 minutes of the game"...?
Uh, this HAS to be a bug. Canceling an egg should ALWAYS lose you the larva. It was like that in BW, and it was like that in SC2 beta patches 1-8.
This is essentially similar to the extractor trick, but for extra larvae, that can be done anytime for the entire length of the game. Although the abuse potential is greatest early-game, before you get your queen. It's obviously not intended or else it would have been mentioned in the patch notes.
But you are right, this is very hard to regulate. Although personally I think it's pretty easy to spot; anytime someone cancels eggs right when hatch produces an extra larva.
Is this possible to stop with a 10-gate as toss or normal wall-in with Terran? I'd assume T can hold it off, since it comes later than a 6 pool and they can they can stop those no problem. ZvZ will probably be broken for sure though.
On April 23 2010 13:08 Antimage wrote: block with 1 zealot or wall in as terran.
10 zerglings>1 zealot
You seem to be misunderstanding the concept of a 1 Zealot block. Done ideally, no more than 1 or 2 Zerglings should be able to even hit the Zealot at the same time. This should give you plenty of time to get another Zealot out.
That being said, I'm not sure you can get the Zealot out and in position if they do this off of 6 or 7 pool on a small map; haven't tried it yet.
Either way this is clearly unintended and needs to be addressed. As a Zerg player, I'd like to see the Egg mechanic returned to the way it was previously.
On April 23 2010 13:10 teamsolid wrote: Is this possible to stop with a 10-gate as toss or normal wall-in with Terran? I'd assume T can hold it off, since it comes later than a 6 pool, can they can stop those no problem.
But the zergling numbers is greater than 6 pool and Terran has to pull scv and that hurt the economy if T ever survived it. I think people on Gold or Platinum can stop this no problem but lower level players will have a very hard time against this. Well, just my theorycraft, but really this is just wrong not because you can rush with lings. This has a very large abusing window in early and mid game. How about tech to roach, use this trick to pump out alot of Roach. Since using this trick you may not need to birth a queen.
I am a toss player for reference but I just tried this in game.
Simply put, even with a 1 unit block which I always do to stomp rushes, there are just too many lings being produced from this. Once zerg has the initial group of lings out, they no longer need the exploit to just keep pumping lings out. Couple this with econ quickly becomes strong enough to pump a queen in the middle of it, and you have toss/ter fighting an extremely lopsided battle.
I will not be laddering until this is fixed, there simply is no point. I don't feel like getting shafted down into the lower leagues just because all zerg players are going to be instant losses for me.
id imagine the lings could actually tear thru the pylon before you have enough zealots out to overwhelm the lings...
I'm really not sure tho, like, 10 lings with constant ling re-inforcement, the zealot cant really come out to stop you from killing the pylon, or it gets owned by 5-6 lings whilst the other 4-5 keep attacking the pylon, by the time the second zealot is out, the pylon is close to dead, more lings have arrived anyway, and you get roled over?
It seems incredibly/impossibly difficult to hold off without pulling significant probes, and even then hard. Yeah it might not be unstoppable, but it would ruin the game for gold ranks and below where 6 pool is already near impossible for those poor newbies to hold off =[
The patch has been out for less than half a day, I would not expect Blizzard to hotfix anything unless it becomes way out of hand. I still doubt the strength of this build and I want to see it for myself before I jump to any conclusions.
In a worst case scenario they will just have to fix/revert the larva/egg cancel thingy.
I tried this in one of my 5 qualifying matches to see how worked against a human opponent - it seems worse than any all-in strat thus far. Hopefully Blizzard patches this tomorrow.
In the meantime, I plan to just play Zerg, and play normal against Terran / Protoss, but will have to use this in ZvZ on the ladder. About all one can do if you intend to ladder.
On April 23 2010 13:08 Antimage wrote: block with 1 zealot or wall in as terran.
10 zerglings>1 zealot
You seem to be misunderstanding the concept of a 1 Zealot block. Done ideally, no more than 1 or 2 Zerglings should be able to even hit the Zealot at the same time. This should give you plenty of time to get another Zealot out.
That being said, I'm not sure you can get the Zealot out and in position if they do this off of 6 or 7 pool on a small map; haven't tried it yet.
Either way this is clearly unintended and needs to be addressed. As a Zerg player, I'd like to see the Egg mechanic returned to the way it was previously.
On small maps like Steppes a fast 6 pool rush already gets zerglings to protoss's base a few seconds before the first zealots comes out, even assuming an early 10gate build. Plexa made a nice bar graph showing the timings. With this, you will have even more (double?) zerglings at almost the same timing.
Even if you do get a zealot out and manage a good 1-zeal wall, the zerglings can just munch through your buildings or just attack your zealot. 12 lings with constant reinforcements can kill a zealot and get into your base before the second zeal pops out. You could pull probes but even then you will still lose. You'll need to pull at least a third to half of your probes. The zerg will easily be economically ahead and the second rush (with roaches or just simply more lings) will likely kill you.
On April 23 2010 13:34 Zzoram wrote: If the Zerg goes 13 pool am I still safe? Does this bug abuse require an early pool that could be spotted by scouting?
It can be used with any pool. It's just more effective with a fast pool. I believe the OP tested this and was able to get 12 zerglings out by 2:30 doing a 10 ovie 10 pool.
On April 23 2010 13:36 DoubleU wrote: Easy fix, just convert back to original. And larva won't die if you cancel once you have lair.
I personally think larva should die if you cancel, period.
It's just simply too strong. Even in mid to late game, Zerg can just whore drones constantly and if they see their opponent moving out, which shouldn't be too hard esp. with Xel'naga watch towers and ovies, they just cancel everything and morph lings or roaches or w/e. Zerg units have a very short build time so it is completely feasible for them to do this.
On April 23 2010 13:40 SneakPeek wrote: ..doesnt the hatchery make larva if you use some larva to make units? then the bug is actually when you cancel morphing a unit, the larva returns.. =p
I'm pretty sure this isn't the problem being described. Its because of that feature there is a glitch.
On April 23 2010 13:40 SneakPeek wrote: ..doesnt the hatchery make larva if you use some larva to make units? then the bug is actually when you cancel morphing a unit, the larva returns.. =p
I'm pretty sure this isn't the problem being described. Its because of that feature there is a glitch.
no this is exactly the problem being described.
cancelling an egg shouldn't return the larva back. It has never EVER done that before.
I'm playing zerg and just tried this. It's so bad I don't even wanna play unless it's nonladder or against friends until they fix it. The hotkeys were tilting enough. It feels like my apm is cut in half.
On April 23 2010 13:33 Puosu wrote: I don't see the point behind giving back the larvae, why would they even implement that let alone not even test it at all after doing so? Christ..
Losing your larvae is a pretty severe punishment for a misclick, especially when they're changing the hotkeys around from week to week.
A basic concept of GUI design is recognition of the inherently clumsy nature of the keyboard/mouse combination, and making user errors easy to reverse without serious consequences.
While the hardcore Starcraft fanbase seems to be begging for SC2 to be little more than a graphical update for Brood War, most players (i.e. the people who are actually going to pay Blizzard enough money to make SC2 worth bothering to release) wouldn't tolerate the primitive interface design standards of Starcraft 1 in a game released this year.
For most players, a clumsy interface that deliberately makes doing simple things awkward and punishes you severely for tiny errors can completely kill their interest in playing the game.
Like it or not, that's the reality of the market today. Starcraft 2 is not a niche game, and Blizzard must cater to the tastes of the mainstream market.
They made this change for a reason. To keep with the spirit behind the change (prevent the issue where canceling a unit leaves you with no larva). I would suggest that all larva gets destroyed unless destroying the larva would leave you with less than 3 larva.
So if you had 3 drones in eggs and you cancel, you have 3 larva for zerglings. If you have 7 drones in eggs and you cancel, you are only left with 3 larva. This removes the ability to generate extra larva for that early pool and still accomplishes the same thing.
I kind of think they made this change to help deal with early rushes. Giving the user the ability to spot the early rush or cheese on its way, cancel the workers and make units. But when the larva dies too, this isn't an option. Early game is where that one or two larva will make the biggest difference.
Gah I lost a placement match to this. I was totally confused until I watched the replay. I'm not really sure what to do about it, but 12 lings before my barracks is finished is nuts, t.t;
I just played my placement matches and more, 9-0 so far.. half of them are zerg trying the new trick.. I just 2 gated/2raxed if I was P or T (I play Random) and handled it soooo easily.. The guy was getting mad to. If I'm Z its just a joke, just get a pool before 15 and you should be good If you see them picking ZERG, its kinda obvious what they might try. Send an early scout and 2gate/2rax and block off. Easy LOL at this being crazy
On April 23 2010 13:33 Puosu wrote: I don't see the point behind giving back the larvae, why would they even implement that let alone not even test it at all after doing so? Christ..
Losing your larvae is a pretty severe punishment for a misclick, especially when they're changing the hotkeys around from week to week.
A basic concept of GUI design is recognition of the inherently clumsy nature of the keyboard/mouse combination, and making user errors easy to reverse without serious consequences.
While the hardcore Starcraft fanbase seems to be begging for SC2 to be little more than a graphical update for Brood War, most players (i.e. the people who are actually going to pay Blizzard enough money to make SC2 worth bothering to release) wouldn't tolerate the primitive interface design standards of Starcraft 1 in a game released this year.
For most players, a clumsy interface that deliberately makes doing simple things awkward and punishes you severely for tiny errors can completely kill their interest in playing the game.
Like it or not, that's the reality of the market today. Starcraft 2 is not a niche game, and Blizzard must cater to the tastes of the mainstream market.
You chose the wrong site to drop this bit of truth. Brace for flames.
On April 23 2010 13:33 Puosu wrote: I don't see the point behind giving back the larvae, why would they even implement that let alone not even test it at all after doing so? Christ..
Losing your larvae is a pretty severe punishment for a misclick, especially when they're changing the hotkeys around from week to week.
A basic concept of GUI design is recognition of the inherently clumsy nature of the keyboard/mouse combination, and making user errors easy to reverse without serious consequences.
While the hardcore Starcraft fanbase seems to be begging for SC2 to be little more than a graphical update for Brood War, most players (i.e. the people who are actually going to pay Blizzard enough money to make SC2 worth bothering to release) wouldn't tolerate the primitive interface design standards of Starcraft 1 in a game released this year.
For most players, a clumsy interface that deliberately makes doing simple things awkward and punishes you severely for tiny errors can completely kill their interest in playing the game.
Like it or not, that's the reality of the market today. Starcraft 2 is not a niche game, and Blizzard must cater to the tastes of the mainstream market.
Maybe units should have 2 lives, cause losing your army to a small micro mistake is too harsh...
I fended off a 6 pool with my workers only (took casualties but not as many as i thought.) Basically we should what three post up says find out if it really is that imba before chanting NERF
On April 23 2010 13:33 Puosu wrote: I don't see the point behind giving back the larvae, why would they even implement that let alone not even test it at all after doing so? Christ..
Losing your larvae is a pretty severe punishment for a misclick, especially when they're changing the hotkeys around from week to week.
A basic concept of GUI design is recognition of the inherently clumsy nature of the keyboard/mouse combination, and making user errors easy to reverse without serious consequences.
While the hardcore Starcraft fanbase seems to be begging for SC2 to be little more than a graphical update for Brood War, most players (i.e. the people who are actually going to pay Blizzard enough money to make SC2 worth bothering to release) wouldn't tolerate the primitive interface design standards of Starcraft 1 in a game released this year.
For most players, a clumsy interface that deliberately makes doing simple things awkward and punishes you severely for tiny errors can completely kill their interest in playing the game.
Like it or not, that's the reality of the market today. Starcraft 2 is not a niche game, and Blizzard must cater to the tastes of the mainstream market.
On April 23 2010 13:33 Puosu wrote: I don't see the point behind giving back the larvae, why would they even implement that let alone not even test it at all after doing so? Christ..
Losing your larvae is a pretty severe punishment for a misclick, especially when they're changing the hotkeys around from week to week.
A basic concept of GUI design is recognition of the inherently clumsy nature of the keyboard/mouse combination, and making user errors easy to reverse without serious consequences.
While the hardcore Starcraft fanbase seems to be begging for SC2 to be little more than a graphical update for Brood War, most players (i.e. the people who are actually going to pay Blizzard enough money to make SC2 worth bothering to release) wouldn't tolerate the primitive interface design standards of Starcraft 1 in a game released this year.
For most players, a clumsy interface that deliberately makes doing simple things awkward and punishes you severely for tiny errors can completely kill their interest in playing the game.
Like it or not, that's the reality of the market today. Starcraft 2 is not a niche game, and Blizzard must cater to the tastes of the mainstream market.
You know whats really UNFUN for casual players?
Unstoppable 12 ling 8 pool rushes every game.
There are any number of ways to preserve game balance without having an interface where pressing the wrong button once during routine opening chores puts you at such a severe disadvantage that you might as well just quit.
On April 23 2010 13:33 Puosu wrote: I don't see the point behind giving back the larvae, why would they even implement that let alone not even test it at all after doing so? Christ..
Losing your larvae is a pretty severe punishment for a misclick, especially when they're changing the hotkeys around from week to week.
A basic concept of GUI design is recognition of the inherently clumsy nature of the keyboard/mouse combination, and making user errors easy to reverse without serious consequences.
While the hardcore Starcraft fanbase seems to be begging for SC2 to be little more than a graphical update for Brood War, most players (i.e. the people who are actually going to pay Blizzard enough money to make SC2 worth bothering to release) wouldn't tolerate the primitive interface design standards of Starcraft 1 in a game released this year.
For most players, a clumsy interface that deliberately makes doing simple things awkward and punishes you severely for tiny errors can completely kill their interest in playing the game.
Like it or not, that's the reality of the market today. Starcraft 2 is not a niche game, and Blizzard must cater to the tastes of the mainstream market.
You know whats really UNFUN for casual players?
Unstoppable 12 ling 8 pool rushes every game.
There are any number of ways to preserve game balance without having an interface where pressing the wrong button once during routine opening chores puts you at such a severe disadvantage that you might as well just quit.
At what situation would one misclick put you at a "might as well quit" disadvantage?
On April 23 2010 13:33 Puosu wrote: I don't see the point behind giving back the larvae, why would they even implement that let alone not even test it at all after doing so? Christ..
Losing your larvae is a pretty severe punishment for a misclick, especially when they're changing the hotkeys around from week to week.
A basic concept of GUI design is recognition of the inherently clumsy nature of the keyboard/mouse combination, and making user errors easy to reverse without serious consequences.
While the hardcore Starcraft fanbase seems to be begging for SC2 to be little more than a graphical update for Brood War, most players (i.e. the people who are actually going to pay Blizzard enough money to make SC2 worth bothering to release) wouldn't tolerate the primitive interface design standards of Starcraft 1 in a game released this year.
For most players, a clumsy interface that deliberately makes doing simple things awkward and punishes you severely for tiny errors can completely kill their interest in playing the game.
Like it or not, that's the reality of the market today. Starcraft 2 is not a niche game, and Blizzard must cater to the tastes of the mainstream market.
You know whats really UNFUN for casual players?
Unstoppable 12 ling 8 pool rushes every game.
There are any number of ways to preserve game balance without having an interface where pressing the wrong button once during routine opening chores puts you at such a severe disadvantage that you might as well just quit.
At what situation would one misclick put you at a "might as well quit" disadvantage?
On April 23 2010 13:33 Puosu wrote: I don't see the point behind giving back the larvae, why would they even implement that let alone not even test it at all after doing so? Christ..
Losing your larvae is a pretty severe punishment for a misclick, especially when they're changing the hotkeys around from week to week.
A basic concept of GUI design is recognition of the inherently clumsy nature of the keyboard/mouse combination, and making user errors easy to reverse without serious consequences.
While the hardcore Starcraft fanbase seems to be begging for SC2 to be little more than a graphical update for Brood War, most players (i.e. the people who are actually going to pay Blizzard enough money to make SC2 worth bothering to release) wouldn't tolerate the primitive interface design standards of Starcraft 1 in a game released this year.
For most players, a clumsy interface that deliberately makes doing simple things awkward and punishes you severely for tiny errors can completely kill their interest in playing the game.
Like it or not, that's the reality of the market today. Starcraft 2 is not a niche game, and Blizzard must cater to the tastes of the mainstream market.
You know whats really UNFUN for casual players?
Unstoppable 12 ling 8 pool rushes every game.
There are any number of ways to preserve game balance without having an interface where pressing the wrong button once during routine opening chores puts you at such a severe disadvantage that you might as well just quit.
At what situation would one misclick put you at a "might as well quit" disadvantage?
Good god, this is possibly the worst thing they could of possibly done. Totally a huge aspect of what makes playing Zerg difficult. As a zerg player this just feels wrong...
Well I was preparing for a long night of laddering... But since I hate ZvZ and if I'm a betting man there will be alot more zerg players around because of this glitch. Oh well I guess I can play more beat hazard then.
Not sure why they changed the egg mechanic - maybe because they're setting up a nerf to the queens spawn larvae? Otherwise I really have no idea, it was fine as it was.
On April 23 2010 14:49 RifleCow wrote: Good god, this is possibly the worst thing they could of possibly done. Totally a huge aspect of what makes playing Zerg difficult. As a zerg player this just feels wrong...
On April 23 2010 14:13 DreamShake wrote: people are really overreacting.
I just played my placement matches and more, 9-0 so far.. half of them are zerg trying the new trick.. I just 2 gated/2raxed if I was P or T (I play Random) and handled it soooo easily.. The guy was getting mad to. If I'm Z its just a joke, just get a pool before 15 and you should be good If you see them picking ZERG, its kinda obvious what they might try. Send an early scout and 2gate/2rax and block off. Easy LOL at this being crazy
Replays please?
I really don't see this being as easy to hold off as you say it is. Especially if they execute it properly.
@Piste: Yes, it's beta but it's very annoying to be dropped to gold or silver league purely because of bad zergs abusing the shit out of this.
I'm still skeptical of how actually OP this build is. The only difference between this build and the standard 6 or 7 pool is that you gain 2-3 larvae. However, after that initial extra 4 lings, it's exactly identical and seeing as how 6/7 pool is pretty easy to fend off I really think it'll only work against a gold or worse player.
On April 23 2010 15:05 teamsolid wrote: I'm still skeptical of how actually OP this build is. The only difference between this build and the standard 6 or 7 pool is that you gain 2-3 larvae. However, after that initial extra 4 lings, it's exactly identical and seeing as how 6/7 pool is pretty easy to fend off I really think it'll only work against a gold or worse player.
It can do some SERIOUS damage to your opponent's economy, and it doesn't cost you anywhere near as much, economically, as a 6Pool. If you do 10 Overlord, 10 Pool, you can make a queen along with the Zerglings and catch up really quick.
On April 23 2010 15:05 teamsolid wrote: I'm still skeptical of how actually OP this build is. The only difference between this build and the standard 6 or 7 pool is that you gain 2-3 larvae. However, after that initial extra 4 lings, it's exactly identical and seeing as how 6/7 pool is pretty easy to fend off I really think it'll only work against a gold or worse player.
check -orb- 's stream its unstoppable. he doesnt even micro with it he just a-clicks
I tried it out myself in a ZvP on blistering sands, with a 7 pool and managed to get 8 lings at his ramp right as his first zealot popped from a 12 gate chrono. I did win, but if he 10/10 or 10/11 gated, I think it can be easily fended off.
If you do 10 overpool, it's too late to do any kind of break.... so I dunno, it might get you an advantage but it's not autowin if they know its coming.
I actually just played a match where the opponent was trying it too and we both just left after seeing that it worked and going "wow" as our huge pile of lings met in the middle too fast.
Amusing, but stupid. Will be patched soon hopefully.
uh ya what he posted is obviously an intentional change. damnit please think first before posting stuff like this. this exploit is an unintended result from this change, they did not intend people to abuse this to keep increasing larvae count, they just wanted to remove the penalty for canceling larvae
On April 23 2010 15:05 teamsolid wrote: I'm still skeptical of how actually OP this build is. The only difference between this build and the standard 6 or 7 pool is that you gain 2-3 larvae. However, after that initial extra 4 lings, it's exactly identical and seeing as how 6/7 pool is pretty easy to fend off I really think it'll only work against a gold or worse player.
check -orb- 's stream its unstoppable. he doesnt even micro with it he just a-clicks
Orb keeps winning against awful players. He almost lost to an awful protoss who walled. It doesn't look impossible to beat at all, it looks defendable if you scout it, just like anything else.
Oh no! I can't Immortal timing push a Zerg cheese! Imba, imba! Because orb calls something OP is a terrible standard to judge by. If we did things by what orb said, only copper players would be allowed to play as Zerg, no Terran units would be in the game, and Stalkers and Sentries would be the only combat units used at Platinum (now Gold, lol!) level play.
The sad thing is, I actually agree that it needs to be changed, just because it's a stupid idea to be able to recover your Larvae. It's possible to reach a correct conclusion with incorrect reasoning. This is what Last edit: 2010-04-23 15:16:12 occurred here.
10 ling 6 pool is definitely very stoppable. Over the last week I could easily stop 6 ling 6 pools with a 14 pool on any map besides steppes of war =/
P/T can easily stop it with a wall if they scout it, and worker AI is so much better against early lings that it's a lot easier to repel as long as you can get to a point where the lings aren't just kiting your entire worker force.
Yes, it's a stupid bug that should (and will) be fixed, but it certainly doesn't seem game-breaking (it probably is unstoppable at copper/bronze/silver?). Right now I would rather face a 10 ling 6 pool in SC2 than face a 5 pool in SC:BW.
Edit: One thing I haven't seen yet is someone bringing their drones along with the 10 lings. That could probably be pretty nasty, especially on small maps
one good thing is that since so many players are doing this right now, if you just learn to block it effectively then you'll be way ahead and have a much easier time winning games!
I have 3 replays of me abusing the 6 pool rush and it's pretty obvious that this needs to be fixed. All my games now end at about 3:33. There's honestly no reason things shouldn't go back to how they were. I made plat 5-0 and I'm not even gold level...
its stoppable if you know its coming. But if the zerg just fes instead you are screwed. So as protoss you have a 50/50 chance of even being in the game....
Dropped me down to silver but whatever I will work my way back up. I personally don't use it but it did make most of the terrans and protosses I face today a little more defensive.
silver is a tough zone to be in 50% of the games are straight up cheese and I am terrible at dealing with them. (It is good training though)
I am sure it will be fixed, or zvz will be just god aweful, I had one game where they manage to zerg down 2 sunkens and my queen and half my workers with just lings.
But hey, props to whoever found this bug/strat/whatever this is. Better catching this in beta than after release (they will probably still be balancing it then). Personally I dont think balance is not what is keeping them from releasing starcraft 2, more like the single player modes, achievements and other stuff. Balancing can always been done after release.
Bnet2 is what is keeping it from being released. All the database issues they are having would just be totally unacceptable for retail release + some people were logging in as other people and could see their full name which might lead to privacy issues etc
uh ya what he posted is obviously an intentional change. damnit please think first before posting stuff like this. this exploit is an unintended result from this change, they did not intend people to abuse this to keep increasing larvae count, they just wanted to remove the penalty for canceling larvae
What's so obvious about it being intentional that eggs revert to larva?
uh ya what he posted is obviously an intentional change. damnit please think first before posting stuff like this. this exploit is an unintended result from this change, they did not intend people to abuse this to keep increasing larvae count, they just wanted to remove the penalty for canceling larvae
What's so obvious about it being intentional that eggs revert to larva?
from a programming/logical standpoint it's impossible for it to be an accidental change.
from a programming standpoint it's analogous to unintentionally making breakfast when you tried to just sit in a chair and play some sc2.
On April 23 2010 14:12 Kevmar wrote: They made this change for a reason. To keep with the spirit behind the change (prevent the issue where canceling a unit leaves you with no larva). I would suggest that all larva gets destroyed unless destroying the larva would leave you with less than 3 larva.
So if you had 3 drones in eggs and you cancel, you have 3 larva for zerglings. If you have 7 drones in eggs and you cancel, you are only left with 3 larva. This removes the ability to generate extra larva for that early pool and still accomplishes the same thing.
I kind of think they made this change to help deal with early rushes. Giving the user the ability to spot the early rush or cheese on its way, cancel the workers and make units. But when the larva dies too, this isn't an option. Early game is where that one or two larva will make the biggest difference.
im fine with it giving back lava to a max of 3... any more than that is insane...
DL'ing patch atm, am afraid of what will happen when i go up against Z's
Of course this is a bug, there's no way that they wouldn't consider 12 lings in under two minutes as a good thing. If it was intentional then they would have completely disregarded the early game when making that decision.
uh ya what he posted is obviously an intentional change. damnit please think first before posting stuff like this. this exploit is an unintended result from this change, they did not intend people to abuse this to keep increasing larvae count, they just wanted to remove the penalty for canceling larvae
What's so obvious about it being intentional that eggs revert to larva?
from a programming/logical standpoint it's impossible for it to be an accidental change.
from a programming standpoint it's analogous to unintentionally making breakfast when you tried to just sit in a chair and play some sc2.
I don't know anything about programming, but from what I've seen from Blizzard, other games and software in general that seems highly unlikely. I recall one WoW patch that made it so if you were a certain race, class and gender and used a certain ability in a certain subzone you would mount a kodo.
On April 23 2010 16:28 ShaperofDreams wrote: Of course this is a bug, there's no way that they wouldn't consider 12 lings in under two minutes as a good thing. If it was intentional then they would have completely disregarded the early game when making that decision.
There is a good chance this isn't a bug. Its probably the case that blizzard wanted to decrease the amount of punishment that zerg received from canceling units, and bring that more in line with the other races, who can cancel production without a cost. The quick lings was an unintentional consequence of their fix, something they didnt see coming, much like the warp gate pvp.
On April 23 2010 16:28 ShaperofDreams wrote: Of course this is a bug, there's no way that they wouldn't consider 12 lings in under two minutes as a good thing. If it was intentional then they would have completely disregarded the early game when making that decision.
It doesn't need to be a bug... but more just a mistake... I doubt it's a programming error but more like just an oversight. Surely if it's that outrageous it will be fixed soon.
On April 23 2010 16:24 Ironclown wrote: I JUST lost to this, 6 lings in my base before my zealot was out. I'm def not laddering til this is addressed which will probably be soon.
If it was 6 lings they weren't using this exploit....
On April 23 2010 16:24 Ironclown wrote: I JUST lost to this, 6 lings in my base before my zealot was out. I'm def not laddering til this is addressed which will probably be soon.
lol 6pool always gave you 6 lings at the same speed. this exploit does not speed up the time of the rush, just the amount of units in it lol. as terrans/protosses have said, just find a build to properly wall off and scout early enough and you can easily defend.
uh ya what he posted is obviously an intentional change. damnit please think first before posting stuff like this. this exploit is an unintended result from this change, they did not intend people to abuse this to keep increasing larvae count, they just wanted to remove the penalty for canceling larvae
What's so obvious about it being intentional that eggs revert to larva?
from a programming/logical standpoint it's impossible for it to be an accidental change.
from a programming standpoint it's analogous to unintentionally making breakfast when you tried to just sit in a chair and play some sc2.
I like this analogy, but I've ended up unintentionally sitting in a chair and playing games all day when I tried to just make breakfast.
On April 23 2010 16:31 Daniri wrote: I don't know anything about programming, but from what I've seen from Blizzard, other games and software in general that seems highly unlikely. I recall one WoW patch that made it so if you were a certain race, class and gender and used a certain ability in a certain subzone you would mount a kodo.
uh ya what he posted is obviously an intentional change. damnit please think first before posting stuff like this. this exploit is an unintended result from this change, they did not intend people to abuse this to keep increasing larvae count, they just wanted to remove the penalty for canceling larvae
What's so obvious about it being intentional that eggs revert to larva?
from a programming/logical standpoint it's impossible for it to be an accidental change.
from a programming standpoint it's analogous to unintentionally making breakfast when you tried to just sit in a chair and play some sc2.
I like this analogy, but I've ended up unintentionally sitting in a chair and playing games all day when I tried to just make breakfast.
On April 23 2010 16:31 Daniri wrote: I don't know anything about programming, but from what I've seen from Blizzard, other games and software in general that seems highly unlikely. I recall one WoW patch that made it so if you were a certain race, class and gender and used a certain ability in a certain subzone you would mount a kodo.
Was this ability named "Mount Kodo"?
Every bug has an explanation and that's one of the easier ones to explain.
uh ya what he posted is obviously an intentional change. damnit please think first before posting stuff like this. this exploit is an unintended result from this change, they did not intend people to abuse this to keep increasing larvae count, they just wanted to remove the penalty for canceling larvae
What's so obvious about it being intentional that eggs revert to larva?
from a programming/logical standpoint it's impossible for it to be an accidental change.
from a programming standpoint it's analogous to unintentionally making breakfast when you tried to just sit in a chair and play some sc2.
I like this analogy, but I've ended up unintentionally sitting in a chair and playing games all day when I tried to just make breakfast.
On April 23 2010 16:31 Daniri wrote: I don't know anything about programming, but from what I've seen from Blizzard, other games and software in general that seems highly unlikely. I recall one WoW patch that made it so if you were a certain race, class and gender and used a certain ability in a certain subzone you would mount a kodo.
THE BUG IS THAT THE HATCH KEEPS MAKING LARVA WHILE YOU HAVE EGGS! and yes im shouting, the cancel and keep your larva thing is definitely intentional, the fact that you can get 5 larva before the pool finishes and gg anything but a terran wall in (with repairing scv's) is definatly a bug, Even if toss walls with forge pylon gate you can kill the pylon and forge and they cant stop it. I tested it out and watched orb do it several times and it's unstoppable. Especially if the z votes down all the 4 player and large rush distance maps. The 10 lings get to toss's base before the 1st zeolot is out! There is nothing they can do, youll kill almost all probes, even with chronoing zlots, If they do manage to survive their income is crippled, theyve lost there first 2 or 3 lots a pylon,a forge and are screwd if you expo and macro or go muta cuz they have no forge to make cannons,no cyber to make stalkers and no pylons at there minerals for cannons even if they did rebuild forge,have another 100 for a pylon and 150 for a cannon. It's definitely a huge oversight!
Just played against it and it's definitely stoppable.
However, you absolutely need to scout this coming and build a very good wall. Hold the wall with 1 zealot (chronoboosted) and have a forge before core and build a cannon. Pull probes if your zealot is in danger of falling.
You will be behind a regular build due to a delayed core but the Zerg will be somewhat behind as well (esp. if they did a fast pool).
On April 23 2010 17:02 Reborn8u wrote: THE BUG IS THAT THE HATCH KEEPS MAKING LARVA WHILE YOU HAVE EGGS!
That's not new, though. You couldn't just change that alone. It would change zerg's whole production schedule.
The new thing is that eggs are recoverable for use as larvae. They can do the easy thing and change that back, or the hard thing and rebalance zerg production from the ground up.
On April 23 2010 17:10 Ryuu314 wrote: Just played against it and it's definitely stoppable.
However, you absolutely need to scout this coming and build a very good wall. Hold the wall with 1 zealot (chronoboosted) and have a forge before core and build a cannon. Pull probes if your zealot is in danger of falling.
You will be behind a regular build due to a delayed core but the Zerg will be somewhat behind as well (esp. if they did a fast pool).
haha this is so sick, how could they miss it? If they did in fact miss it, but thats just being cynical since this was a fing huge patch. Too bad it was such a game breaker
This build is easy to stop as Terran, but the problem is that you have to wall off ASAP every single game against Zerg now, which if the Zerg doesn't do this build and just FE they are way ahead, and you can't afford to not wall off before the 10 lings would arrive because its insta-loss if you don't. At least 6 pool before this was managable with SCV + Marine, but with 10-12...just rapes SCV way too much.
They better patch this soon. Once Zerg's smarten up and start to take advantage and mix up their play it'll be hell.
Really would like to see these replays, I don't consider myself an expert zerg user however if you know how to transition out of it into roach or expand it would be fairly brutal even if the player held the first 12 lings off via wallin etc.
However, when you can basicly say "Hey I am 6pooling you" and still win a match I am not quite sure I'd call that balanced. *shrug*
can someone upload a replay/tutorial of someone getting 10 lings at 1:55? im having difficulties actually using this. i think im a moron or something, possibly.
On April 23 2010 17:38 e.soul[gm] wrote: can someone upload a replay/tutorial of someone getting 10 lings at 1:55? im having difficulties actually using this. i think im a moron or something, possibly.
you're asking for a guide on how to abuse in a thread that explicitly explained how to do it. yes, you are a moron.
On April 23 2010 17:38 e.soul[gm] wrote: can someone upload a replay/tutorial of someone getting 10 lings at 1:55? im having difficulties actually using this. i think im a moron or something, possibly.
you're asking for a guide on how to abuse in a thread that explicitly explained how to do it. yes, you are a moron.
omg idra called me a moron screenshotted and put on facebook. and maybe the wording was wrong. i can only get 8 lings out at 1:55, so im looking for optimization.
Blizzard can make it so when you have 3 or more larvae available the larvae dies if the egg is cancelled but if you have under 3 you get the larvae back.
On April 23 2010 17:38 e.soul[gm] wrote: can someone upload a replay/tutorial of someone getting 10 lings at 1:55? im having difficulties actually using this. i think im a moron or something, possibly.
you're asking for a guide on how to abuse in a thread that explicitly explained how to do it. yes, you are a moron.
omg idra called me a moron screenshotted and put on facebook. and maybe the wording was wrong. i can only get 8 lings out at 1:55, so im looking for optimization.
Make an initial drone, mine with initial 6 workers. Cancel first morphing drone when you get extra larva. Plop down spawning pool when you get 200. Then once you get 100 mins, make 2 drones, cancel them when you get an extra larva. You should now have 5 larva. That's 10 zerglings right there off a 6 pool timing.
I hate the whole cancel egg going back to larva thing. Zerg is already the most flexible race, they have full production facility for EVERYTHING, they should at least lose larva if a bad building decision is made. BW had this feature for 10 years, there is no problem.
Now they are even more flexible. T and P has a harder time tricking the already flexible zerg to build the wrong units. In broodwar, lets say you FE into fake zealot rush so zerg goes mutas, but you secretly building 2 stargate sairs. This is a good move, you gain advantage and control by having sairs against zerg's first muta force. Toss would have advantage but it's not a game ender... since Z, even after been tricked, can switch quickly back to hydra/lurker thanks to its flexibility.
But with this whole larva thing, z is now super flexible.. toss hides robo and colosis carefully, zerg builds roaches and hydras, an overlord sees the robo last sec, now z can easily cancel all eggs and bam 12 mutas comes out instead. Zerg pays almost no price for the bad choice of making roaches and hydras first. It just feels.. dirty and wrong.
Worse yet think of the role on rushes, now zerg can always cheese super early ling rush and have a drone scout ahead, if he finds you in the closest spot, or if u doing a macro build that is not prepared for it, zerg will just continue to let the lings finish and rape you. If you are far or is walling up/early gate, zerg can simply cancel lings and make drones instead, at very little loss to its economy... Zerg is now taking almost no risk in doing super cheesy rushes...
oh and of course there is this extra larva problem to deal with . meh.
On April 23 2010 17:38 e.soul[gm] wrote: can someone upload a replay/tutorial of someone getting 10 lings at 1:55? im having difficulties actually using this. i think im a moron or something, possibly.
you're asking for a guide on how to abuse in a thread that explicitly explained how to do it. yes, you are a moron.
omg idra called me a moron screenshotted and put on facebook. and maybe the wording was wrong. i can only get 8 lings out at 1:55, so im looking for optimization.
Make an initial drone, mine with initial 6 workers. Cancel first morphing drone when you get extra larva. Plop down spawning pool when you get 200. Then once you get 100 mins, make 2 drones, cancel them when you get an extra larva. You should now have 5 larva. That's 10 zerglings right there off a 6 pool timing.
ty bud time to abuse and get ladder points like its nobodies business
On April 23 2010 17:47 DaggerRage wrote: Blizzard can make it so when you have 3 or more larvae available the larvae dies if the egg is cancelled but if you have under 3 you get the larvae back.
Or you could just use your larva properly in the first place like people did in BW for the last 10 years
it can be stopped very easily as terran. all you do is wall in early and build a bunk. same with toss, wall in ur choke and build a cannon.
of course if the zerg can somehow get in then just GG right then and there. there will be no way in hell u can stop it or recover from it if the lings manage to get inside ur base. even of all the lings die the zerg can just set up a expansion since there is a near 100% your economy will be destroyed.
im sure it will defiantly be patched in patch 10 and im certain this is why larva was destroyed when you canceled a egg.
On April 23 2010 18:02 Ballistixz wrote: it can be stopped very easily as terran. all you do is wall in early and build a bunk. same with toss, wall in ur choke and build a cannon.
of course if the zerg can somehow get in then just GG right then and there. there will be no way in hell u can stop it or recover from it if the lings manage to get inside ur base. even of all the lings die the zerg can just set up a expansion since there is a near 100% your economy will be destroyed.
im sure it will defiantly be patched in patch 10 and im certain this is why larva was destroyed when you canceled a egg.
It can be stopped but in order to do that you have to sacrifice massive amount of economy, that means on 4 player maps its basically a guessing game if you win, cause if you defend against the rush and they expo its GG there too.
On April 23 2010 18:02 Ballistixz wrote: it can be stopped very easily as terran. all you do is wall in early and build a bunk. same with toss, wall in ur choke and build a cannon.
of course if the zerg can somehow get in then just GG right then and there. there will be no way in hell u can stop it or recover from it if the lings manage to get inside ur base. even of all the lings die the zerg can just set up a expansion since there is a near 100% your economy will be destroyed.
im sure it will defiantly be patched in patch 10 and im certain this is why larva was destroyed when you canceled a egg.
It can be stopped but in order to do that you have to sacrifice massive amount of economy, that means on 4 player maps its basically a guessing game if you win, cause if you defend against the rush and they expo its GG there too.
Hell, I'd much rather play with a deficit than be completely dead.
On April 23 2010 18:02 Ballistixz wrote: it can be stopped very easily as terran. all you do is wall in early and build a bunk. same with toss, wall in ur choke and build a cannon.
of course if the zerg can somehow get in then just GG right then and there. there will be no way in hell u can stop it or recover from it if the lings manage to get inside ur base. even of all the lings die the zerg can just set up a expansion since there is a near 100% your economy will be destroyed.
im sure it will defiantly be patched in patch 10 and im certain this is why larva was destroyed when you canceled a egg.
It can be stopped but in order to do that you have to sacrifice massive amount of economy, that means on 4 player maps its basically a guessing game if you win, cause if you defend against the rush and they expo its GG there too.
Hell, I'd much rather play with a deficit than be completely dead.
I agree with you im just saying, that while there are answers its still pretty dang broken.
I just played my placements and my last match was against a zerg who did this on kulas ravine. Thankfully I got a 2 gate walloff in time and microed my heart out. VERY dangerous bug but not entirely invincible.
yea you can actually end up with 6 larvae in a 7 pool. You will only be able to spend 5 initially, but the 6th one isn't too far off.
If you insist on laddering now against zerg, have that probe ready to finish an airtight wall. You really also should be getting that forge earlier, anyway, because of the possibility of all in 13 pool 18 hatch speedling.
Terrans should really be fine since they have their wall up anyway.
A compromise fix would be for a cancelled egg to take as long to revert to a usable larva as it spent being an egg before it was cancelled.
That way, if you misclick, you can get your larva back right away, but you can't use eggs as a store of readily available larvae. You could still do some production tricks, but they would be more costly.
Another way to do it would be to have a few seconds of "oops" time where you can revert them to larvae, but then they pass a point of no return and can only be cancelled into puddles of goo.
But I see no reason to abuse with this bug, as it will be fixed, and the rankings mean nothing.
And i see no reason to stop playing ladder because of this bug. The more fair players continue playing, the less we will meet abusing zerg players. Plus, if you play against an abusing Zerg, 1:55 is not a big loss of time.
On April 23 2010 18:18 Funchucks wrote: A compromise fix would be for a cancelled egg to take as long to revert to a usable larva as it spent being an egg before it was cancelled.
That way, if you misclick, you can get your larva back right away, but you can't use eggs as a store of readily available larvae. You could still do some production tricks, but they would be more costly.
Another way to do it would be to have a few seconds of "oops" time where you can revert them to larvae, but then they pass a point of no return and can only be cancelled into puddles of goo.
10pylon at ramp, 10gate at ramp, scout the build, stop making probes, build forge, CB zealot, cannon, bring some probes down, CB zealot, hold the rush gg. I didn't wall off completely, but I could have... it probably would have been better actually.
The fix is easy: just correct the algorithm that checks if the additional larva should be spawned or not. It should be checking every time the larva spawns and not the way it checks right now.
On April 23 2010 18:02 Ballistixz wrote: it can be stopped very easily as terran. all you do is wall in early and build a bunk. same with toss, wall in ur choke and build a cannon.
of course if the zerg can somehow get in then just GG right then and there. there will be no way in hell u can stop it or recover from it if the lings manage to get inside ur base. even of all the lings die the zerg can just set up a expansion since there is a near 100% your economy will be destroyed.
im sure it will defiantly be patched in patch 10 and im certain this is why larva was destroyed when you canceled a egg.
It can be stopped but in order to do that you have to sacrifice massive amount of economy, that means on 4 player maps its basically a guessing game if you win, cause if you defend against the rush and they expo its GG there too.
What's the point of trying to metagame this? It's not a cheese, it's a bug/exploit. Until it's fixed, people just need to know how bad it is,and a way to give themselves a chance against abusers. If someone bothers to plan out a full late game decision tree based on a soon to be fixed bug, they're wasting their time.
On April 23 2010 18:02 Ballistixz wrote: it can be stopped very easily as terran. all you do is wall in early and build a bunk. same with toss, wall in ur choke and build a cannon.
of course if the zerg can somehow get in then just GG right then and there. there will be no way in hell u can stop it or recover from it if the lings manage to get inside ur base. even of all the lings die the zerg can just set up a expansion since there is a near 100% your economy will be destroyed.
im sure it will defiantly be patched in patch 10 and im certain this is why larva was destroyed when you canceled a egg.
It can be stopped but in order to do that you have to sacrifice massive amount of economy, that means on 4 player maps its basically a guessing game if you win, cause if you defend against the rush and they expo its GG there too.
What's the point of trying to metagame this? It's not a cheese, it's a bug/exploit.
Not necessarily. Leaving it in and balancing around it is always an option.
On April 23 2010 18:33 Cheerio wrote: The fix is easy: just correct the algorithm that checks if the additional larva should be spawned or not. It should be checking every time the larva spawns and not the way it checks right now.
Excellent idea.
On April 23 2010 18:45 yoshi_yoshi wrote: Just did this vP on scrap station and failed. I feel violated.
Wow how the hell did he manage to do that? Did he make cannons?
I began playing SC2 3 days ago, never played RTS on a competitive level and got Platinum rank #1 thanks to this glitch. Never seen a protoss player able to stop it, unless I made a huge mistake (like accidently letting the drone get built).
BTW hope you guys aren't mad. At first I was like let's not play until it's fixed, but then I decided I'd at least learn some zergling micro management (played against zerg doing the same, that's mad fun) + hotkeys + could say that I've been on the top of the ladder :D
If there's any protoss player here who can stop (or thinks he can stop) it on scrap station, and wants to practice, PM me. (I can only play US server currently)
the solution to fix this but keep the feature in is very very simple: if there are ever any more than 3 larvae at a hatchery, kill extraneous larvae till it's down to 3. Exception is if the larvae spawned from Queen's Spawn Larvae ability.
then you use extracter trick to get another 4 lings as second wave.
Also you could bring your drones together.
The point is the player must go extreme early defense, otherwise they cant affoad the result. but if zerg player go roaches rush/baneing or whatever standard playing style instead of 6pool, there is no chance you could stop that, cuz you already sacrifice too much economy
On April 23 2010 18:58 Haathen wrote: I began playing SC2 3 days ago, never played RTS on a competitive level and got Platinum rank #1 thanks to this glitch. Never seen a protoss player able to stop it, unless I made a huge mistake (like accidently letting the drone get built).
I've played 2 games against zerg in plat and both players did it on a 4 player map. They correctly scouted me with their overlord.
The first time I scouted it i was like lol 6 pool my zealot will crush him. Then 10 lings and 6 drones came and I got destroyed.
A couple games later I played another zerg and I scouted him first so I built 2 gateways at my choke with a small gap. As the zerglings came in I realized that I couldn't get my zealot out in time so I built a pylon in the gap. I had to pull all my probes and use my zealot to kill my pylon so he wouldn't take out my gateways.
He ended up killing all but 4 probes and I was able to hold him off through roaches but then he got mutas and I was too far in with immortals.
I think next time it happens I will be better off and might come off on top but if he scouts me first and I don't get a scout then I guess I"ll just have to plan for it without sight which will put my core and gas back if he does something standard
On April 23 2010 19:01 Zelniq wrote: the solution to fix this but keep the feature in is very very simple: if there are ever any more than 3 larvae at a hatchery, kill extraneous larvae till it's down to 3. Exception is if the larvae spawned from Queen's Spawn Larvae ability.
Doesn't work. You could start your first three zergling eggs from larvae, then cancel two drone eggs and start two more zergling eggs.
On April 23 2010 18:02 Ballistixz wrote: it can be stopped very easily as terran. all you do is wall in early and build a bunk. same with toss, wall in ur choke and build a cannon.
of course if the zerg can somehow get in then just GG right then and there. there will be no way in hell u can stop it or recover from it if the lings manage to get inside ur base. even of all the lings die the zerg can just set up a expansion since there is a near 100% your economy will be destroyed.
im sure it will defiantly be patched in patch 10 and im certain this is why larva was destroyed when you canceled a egg.
It can be stopped but in order to do that you have to sacrifice massive amount of economy, that means on 4 player maps its basically a guessing game if you win, cause if you defend against the rush and they expo its GG there too.
What's the point of trying to metagame this? It's not a cheese, it's a bug/exploit.
Not necessarily. Leaving it in and balancing around it is always an option.
What's more Starcraft than a zergling rush?
That completely unrealistic belief is basically what some people are wasting their time doing here. And let me be clear that I consider people suggesting fixes to the bug are completely separate and much more productive group.
For now it's more of a short-lived exercise in adaptivity.
A guy tried this vs me on scrap station, before I even knew it was possible. He picked off my scouting probe and i was like WTF thats a lot of zerglings fast. Luckily i went forge first, spawned 2 canons and walled off except a narrow gap which i filled with workers and plugged the gap with hold fire till the canons came online. Then i totally walled off and went dual starport and raped him with mass zealots & phoenix's (as i knew his econ had to be screwed with such a lack of drones.
As protoss you literally have to wall in and tower before you scout.. building forge before gateway. If zerg is doing the rush, it'll be a close game; if he plays standard then you are screwed
people are behaving like sc2 is finished... the beta is for rooting out idiotic game mechanics and hopefully bring balance to the game before it is launched. Now this larvae bug is clearly op and will no doubt get fixed somehow, but I liked blizzards intention of making zerg able to cancel units without cost just as the other races.
I am more concerned with the extremely careful balance changes coming out, imo they should try to listen to the players a bit more and see how nerfing the marauder and forcefield would work out instead of just tweaking build times and upgrades. They should also look closer upon the units we almost never see.. like the ultralisk or the archon and actually make them worth producing.
Ok people, the issue is not whether it's stoppable or not.
Zerg can CANCEL eggs, with no negative repercussions. You can power drones the entire game, and cancel eggs when you find out you need that larva to be an attacking unit instead.
THAT is why I'm just going to practice PvT and PvP for a while. It's just such a retarded mechanic. The fact that the devs would even consider this as an option to begin with makes me afraid for sc2.
On April 23 2010 19:26 SneakPeek wrote: actually its not a bug...
If you are a zerg player that enjoys exploiting this bug, have fun. Because within the next 12 hours, Blizzard will have hotfixed this.
Bug is something that is not intentional.. This is intentional behavior but unintentional strategy from it.
no, the intended behavior was being able to cancel a building unit without losing the larva, not to trick hatcheries into holding extra larva. the hatchery still stops producing a new larva when it has 3 idle.
On April 23 2010 20:09 Casta wrote: Now this larvae bug is clearly op and will no doubt get fixed somehow, but I liked blizzards intention of making zerg able to cancel units without cost just as the other races.
Zerg unit production is very different from Protoss and Terran unit production. It was perfectly fine that you can't get larvae back, you get 1 larva every 15 seconds. Zerg doesn't need different unit production facilities for different units, but at least the larva loss made switches a LITTLE harder. You couldn't start your mutas, see turrets and then decide to just make hydras. Now you can. It doesn't make zerg more fun, it only makes zerg stronger and easier (no planning required). To balance the game around this nonsense would be insane, basically every unit and building would need adjustments.
On April 23 2010 19:26 SneakPeek wrote: actually its not a bug...
If you are a zerg player that enjoys exploiting this bug, have fun. Because within the next 12 hours, Blizzard will have hotfixed this.
Bug is something that is not intentional.. This is intentional behavior but unintentional strategy from it.
no, the intended behavior was being able to cancel a building unit without losing the larva, not to trick hatcheries into holding extra larva. the hatchery still stops producing a new larva when it has 3 idle.
It wasn't directly intended, but neiter is it a bug. It wasn't hard to predict that this would happen given the rest of the game mechanics.
On April 23 2010 20:09 Casta wrote: Now this larvae bug is clearly op and will no doubt get fixed somehow, but I liked blizzards intention of making zerg able to cancel units without cost just as the other races.
Zerg unit production is very different from Protoss and Terran unit production. It was perfectly fine that you can't get larvae back, you get 1 larva every 15 seconds. Zerg doesn't need different unit production facilities for different units, but at least the larva loss made switches a LITTLE harder. You couldn't start your mutas, see turrets and then decide to just make hydras. Now you can. It doesn't make zerg more fun, it only makes zerg stronger and easier (no planning required). To balance the game around this nonsense would be insane, basically every unit and building would need adjustments.
While zerg don't need additional production facilities they do need the tech, fx. both hydra den and spire to do what you just said. I can't see a big problem with zerg getting the larvaes refunded if it wasn't exploitable.
Zergs production capabilities have both ups and downsides to it, especially when expanding.. it can be a huge risk to use all larvaes on drones for the expo when suddenly units come knocking at your door.
At least I would find it worth to test before dropping the idea entirely.
Yah man, Zerg should definitely not have a mechanic that lets them cancel workers to make units or cancel units to make workers. I mean seriously! Can you imagine what that would be like? Like... like being able to cancel a Probe/SCV to make a Zealot/Marine! Definitely not something we want Zerg to have. Srsly!
Hahaha.
Anyway, I think it's a good concept to apply, but it definitely seems like they went about it the wrong way. I'm sure Blizzard will think of some way to maintain the mechanic without allowing excessive unit production. They seem to enjoy adjusting creation times, so I'll just assume they're gonna increase the larvae spawn time by 1 second or something, which would make abusing this mechanic a bit harder early on.
I doubt they'll ever accomplish a proper fix that still maintains the mechanic, though.
On April 23 2010 19:56 Taco-Mental wrote: A guy tried this vs me on scrap station, before I even knew it was possible. He picked off my scouting probe and i was like WTF thats a lot of zerglings fast. Luckily i went forge first, spawned 2 canons and walled off except a narrow gap which i filled with workers and plugged the gap with hold fire till the canons came online. Then i totally walled off and went dual starport and raped him with mass zealots & phoenix's (as i knew his econ had to be screwed with such a lack of drones.
then his timig was completely off, you can not have even a single cannon ready when he times it right
On April 23 2010 20:09 Casta wrote: Now this larvae bug is clearly op and will no doubt get fixed somehow, but I liked blizzards intention of making zerg able to cancel units without cost just as the other races.
Zerg unit production is very different from Protoss and Terran unit production. It was perfectly fine that you can't get larvae back, you get 1 larva every 15 seconds. Zerg doesn't need different unit production facilities for different units, but at least the larva loss made switches a LITTLE harder. You couldn't start your mutas, see turrets and then decide to just make hydras. Now you can. It doesn't make zerg more fun, it only makes zerg stronger and easier (no planning required). To balance the game around this nonsense would be insane, basically every unit and building would need adjustments.
While zerg don't need additional production facilities they do need the tech, fx. both hydra den and spire to do what you just said. I can't see a big problem with zerg getting the larvaes refunded if it wasn't exploitable.
Zergs production capabilities have both ups and downsides to it, especially when expanding.. it can be a huge risk to use all larvaes on drones for the expo when suddenly units come knocking at your door.
At least I would find it worth to test before dropping the idea entirely.
At 1 Hatch 1 Queen, zerg gets 1 larva every ~7 seconds. If a terran decides to go banshees he has to get a LOT of starports to be able to pump 1 banshee every 7 seconds. If a zerg decides to make mutas, he has to build 1 spire to pump 1 muta every 7 seconds. And now if the zerg sees that he better shouldn't make mutas he just cancels them and the whole thing only cost him a spire. If the terran sees that air isn't going to work he has spent a lot of money on Starports.
It indeed was risky to spend all your larvae on drones. But now it is much less so because you can just cancel the 5-10 drones you have morphing currently and make combat units instead.
This is where all that social media blizzard has been doing is going to be useful. If you twitter and post on Facebook about this they will have to apply a hot-fix asap.
On April 23 2010 19:26 SneakPeek wrote: actually its not a bug...
If you are a zerg player that enjoys exploiting this bug, have fun. Because within the next 12 hours, Blizzard will have hotfixed this.
Bug is something that is not intentional.. This is intentional behavior but unintentional strategy from it.
no, the intended behavior was being able to cancel a building unit without losing the larva, not to trick hatcheries into holding extra larva. the hatchery still stops producing a new larva when it has 3 idle.
I don't think people agree on what they mean when they talk about bugs.
For example following your definition manner pylons in BW are a bug but not many people would refer to it as such.
Zerg already have a decisive advantage in being able to react. I cannot begin to agree with this change - this is so bad. At least once they started building units you had a small windows of lack of reactivity. Not anymore.
Not to mention the superior Zergling rush now.
When was this ever an issue? I really cannot come to terms with why this decision was made. I have never seen such a display of recklessness in balancing as this decision. They can cancel for free? Not even free when you consider the Zergling rush - Zerg cancel for profit. Wow, really, this is bad. No one in their right mind has ever asked for this.
Our faith can be restored if this is immediately patched. Let's hope.
Yeah, not touching the ladder until this gets fixed. Not because I give a shit about my epeen number, but because this stupid bug/exploit single handily forces everyone race into either losing 3min in or super turtle mode which I'm sure some zerg are already abusing by feinting into an easy FE if they spot a quick wall in.
On April 23 2010 22:07 mynameisbean wrote: I dont have the beta, so I dont have any authority in asking or saying anything at all.
But how sure are you guys that Blizzard didn't intend this?
There have been a fair few complaints about zerg vs other races, from what I've read.. ?
Have you thought of 2vs2? What if there are 2 zerg players against 2 protoss players? That's an automatic win everytime if the zerg players use this bug to produce 20 zerglings in 1:55 minutes to rush the same protoss player.
On April 23 2010 22:13 Elegy wrote: lol I love how HDStarcraft, in his infinite wisdom, made a fucking tutorial video on how to abuse this.................
Great thing actually, the faster this is brought to light, the faster the casuals can get to flaming the battle.net boards and we get a faster hotfix :D
Holy mother of creep. I'll try this on ladder 1 time to check the timming but that's just abusive.
I am sure Blizz will notice this soon enough, they keep track on weird stuff happening on every game and 12 lings at 2:30 is most definitely one of this situations...
On April 23 2010 20:09 Casta wrote: Now this larvae bug is clearly op and will no doubt get fixed somehow, but I liked blizzards intention of making zerg able to cancel units without cost just as the other races.
Zerg unit production is very different from Protoss and Terran unit production. It was perfectly fine that you can't get larvae back, you get 1 larva every 15 seconds. Zerg doesn't need different unit production facilities for different units, but at least the larva loss made switches a LITTLE harder. You couldn't start your mutas, see turrets and then decide to just make hydras. Now you can. It doesn't make zerg more fun, it only makes zerg stronger and easier (no planning required). To balance the game around this nonsense would be insane, basically every unit and building would need adjustments.
While zerg don't need additional production facilities they do need the tech, fx. both hydra den and spire to do what you just said. I can't see a big problem with zerg getting the larvaes refunded if it wasn't exploitable.
Zergs production capabilities have both ups and downsides to it, especially when expanding.. it can be a huge risk to use all larvaes on drones for the expo when suddenly units come knocking at your door.
At least I would find it worth to test before dropping the idea entirely.
Its not really a huge risk when you play the race with the best map vision in the game, will see any push coming, and can just cancel the drones and make roaches or lings with little penalty to help defend a push.
On April 23 2010 22:50 AngryAsian wrote: It should give the larva back because it is not fair since all other races can cancel and rebuild. If the larva dies then zerg cannot rebuild.
Ok, cool, then they need to make it whenever there are any combination of eggs + larvae = 3 on a hatchery that it doesn't spawn more larvae
They just need to make it so the number of larva from the hatchery can never exceed 3. It doesn't break anything that way and zerg still get the benefit of being able to cancel and not "lose" a larva.
On April 23 2010 22:50 AngryAsian wrote: It should give the larva back because it is not fair since all other races can cancel and rebuild. If the larva dies then zerg cannot rebuild.
Ok, cool, then they need to make it whenever there are any combination of eggs + larvae = 3 on a hatchery that it doesn't spawn more larvae
Say you have 4 eggs morphing and no larvae. You are making 4 ultralisks, so it takes a long time for them to be finished. For the whole duration of 75 seconds, the hatchery is not spawning new larvae. This would be silly, wouldn't it?
The best option is to just be able to cancel an egg within the time needed to spawn a new larva from the hatchery. I.e. if the time needed to spawn a new larva is 20 seconds, the ability to cancel a morphing egg is has to be removed after ~15 seconds (or at least some value under 20).
Its pretty annoying, as toss im too afraid of it that i wall off with a gateway/ forge,(and build a pylon outside somewhere random for Warp gates) and then my scout arrives at their base to see that they have expanded and im way behind in economy :/ mess's with your mind :O
IMO make it like sc1. You cancel the egg, you lose the larvae. I mean it's your fault for not making the right unit anyway right? Live with your mistakes. I mean this game is BASED around mistakes anyways. If every mistake was forgiven, everyone would be in platinum with a 1-1 ratio
This BO is a total all-in. There will be ways to beat this. This will lead Zerg to not all-in unless they try to pull of this cheese.
On April 23 2010 12:31 Suffo wrote: imo post this on technical support, as they are always checking that iono about suggestions and / or bug reports as much as i see a lot less blue posts
Yes indeed, if something is OP, we need to use it all the time. Either a counter will be found or the mechanics turns out to be game breaking.
On April 23 2010 12:49 blade55555 wrote: Has anybody tested to see if there is a limit? (like won't let you get past 5 larva or something) or could you go to 20 if you wanted?
With queen, limit of larvae is 19 for any hatch. I don't tested with Patch 9, though.
On April 23 2010 22:50 AngryAsian wrote: It should give the larva back because it is not fair since all other races can cancel and rebuild. If the larva dies then zerg cannot rebuild.
Ok, cool, then they need to make it whenever there are any combination of eggs + larvae = 3 on a hatchery that it doesn't spawn more larvae
Say you have 4 eggs morphing and no larvae. You are making 4 ultralisks, so it takes a long time for them to be finished. For the whole duration of 75 seconds, the hatchery is not spawning new larvae. This would be silly, wouldn't it?
The best option is to just be able to cancel an egg within the time needed to spawn a new larva from the hatchery. I.e. if the time needed to spawn a new larva is 20 seconds, the ability to cancel a morphing egg is has to be removed after ~15 seconds (or at least some value under 20).
I don't see why they cant just let the larva mechanic work identical to how it worked in bw/pre patch 9
eggs are eggs (from hatcheries), larva is larva. You can have any combination of eggs + larvae (build and spawn times willing ofc) but your larva is never going to exceed 3.
If you have an egg morphing and 3 larva and cancel, you get no larva back. If you have 2 larva and 3 eggs morphing and cancel them all, you get 1 larva back. Queen eggs always refund larva
It's still a lot more forgiving than it ever was for zerg.
On April 23 2010 22:50 AngryAsian wrote: It should give the larva back because it is not fair since all other races can cancel and rebuild. If the larva dies then zerg cannot rebuild.
Ok, cool, then they need to make it whenever there are any combination of eggs + larvae = 3 on a hatchery that it doesn't spawn more larvae
Say you have 4 eggs morphing and no larvae. You are making 4 ultralisks, so it takes a long time for them to be finished. For the whole duration of 75 seconds, the hatchery is not spawning new larvae. This would be silly, wouldn't it?
The best option is to just be able to cancel an egg within the time needed to spawn a new larva from the hatchery. I.e. if the time needed to spawn a new larva is 20 seconds, the ability to cancel a morphing egg is has to be removed after ~15 seconds (or at least some value under 20).
I was making a point. If you choose to make the wrong unit in the wrong situation, you *should* be punished for it. Can Protoss and Terran cancel units? (Well until Warpgates) Yes, but this isn't a game where everything is the exact same but skinned differently.
The easiest way to do it is make it so you either can't cancel and get your larvae back, or don't spawn additional larvae past 3 = egg + larvae
On April 23 2010 23:29 [F_]aths wrote: This BO is a total all-in. There will be ways to beat this. This will lead Zerg to not all-in unless they try to pull of this cheese.
Not really. You can do a 6 pool, send your 10 zerglings in to their mineral line to kill their workers, and if the opponent manages to fight you off, you've already taken a huge lead in your economy. From there, if you choose to do so, you can macro up, and your opponent will be busy rebuilding their workers.
Canceling is ok, but it should be a lil bit changed like : - You can cancel egg back into larva for first ... 5 sec? 10 sec? - After that time canceling the egg will result in death of that larva.
On April 23 2010 22:50 AngryAsian wrote: It should give the larva back because it is not fair since all other races can cancel and rebuild. If the larva dies then zerg cannot rebuild.
Ok, cool, then they need to make it whenever there are any combination of eggs + larvae = 3 on a hatchery that it doesn't spawn more larvae
Say you have 4 eggs morphing and no larvae. You are making 4 ultralisks, so it takes a long time for them to be finished. For the whole duration of 75 seconds, the hatchery is not spawning new larvae. This would be silly, wouldn't it?
The best option is to just be able to cancel an egg within the time needed to spawn a new larva from the hatchery. I.e. if the time needed to spawn a new larva is 20 seconds, the ability to cancel a morphing egg is has to be removed after ~15 seconds (or at least some value under 20).
I don't see why they cant just let the larva mechanic work identical to how it worked in bw/pre patch 9
eggs are eggs (from hatcheries), larva is larva. You can have any combination of eggs + larvae (build and spawn times willing ofc) but your larva is never going to exceed 3.
If you have an egg morphing and 3 larva and cancel, you get no larva back. If you have 2 larva and 3 eggs morphing and cancel them all, you get 1 larva back. Queen eggs always refund larva
It's still a lot more forgiving than it ever was for zerg.
I'm just saying that if they want to change it so that you could cancel the morphing egg and get a larva back, the option that I proposed above makes sure you have a maximum of 3 larvae.
they should just ditch this revert egg to larva bullshit imo, its ridiculous how zerg can dronewhore (even with old mechanic it was easy) without possibility of being punished lol
this change is just brilliant. Now unit production is almost fair across races! The final change needed is Protoss being able to unsummon units which are warping in. I mean, come on, one misclick or wrong hotkey and the wrong unit is warped in WITHOUT ANY CHANCE TO GET THE RESOURCES BACK, WOOT!? This is still totally unfair ...
On April 23 2010 22:50 AngryAsian wrote: It should give the larva back because it is not fair since all other races can cancel and rebuild. If the larva dies then zerg cannot rebuild.
Ok, cool, then they need to make it whenever there are any combination of eggs + larvae = 3 on a hatchery that it doesn't spawn more larvae
Say you have 4 eggs morphing and no larvae. You are making 4 ultralisks, so it takes a long time for them to be finished. For the whole duration of 75 seconds, the hatchery is not spawning new larvae. This would be silly, wouldn't it?
The best option is to just be able to cancel an egg within the time needed to spawn a new larva from the hatchery. I.e. if the time needed to spawn a new larva is 20 seconds, the ability to cancel a morphing egg is has to be removed after ~15 seconds (or at least some value under 20).
I don't see why they cant just let the larva mechanic work identical to how it worked in bw/pre patch 9
eggs are eggs (from hatcheries), larva is larva. You can have any combination of eggs + larvae (build and spawn times willing ofc) but your larva is never going to exceed 3.
If you have an egg morphing and 3 larva and cancel, you get no larva back. If you have 2 larva and 3 eggs morphing and cancel them all, you get 1 larva back. Queen eggs always refund larva
It's still a lot more forgiving than it ever was for zerg.
I'm just saying that if they want to change it so that you could cancel the morphing egg and get a larva back, the option that I proposed above makes sure you have a maximum of 3 larvae.
You'd also cripple larva production during creation of big units.
Just make the cancelled larva die if the Hatchery already has 3+ Larva i.e. You have 3 Larva and make a drone. Another larva pops up at 15s, if you cancel the egg at this point, the larva that would be created from cancelling the egg dies.
On April 23 2010 23:38 Chalks wrote: Fix is simple:
Revert to how it was before the patch.
fixed your fix.
Yeah, true, but assuming they actually have a reason to want to play with the cancel mechanic this is probably the fix they're going to go for.
The only possible reason for doing this is that a bunch of people who have no idea about Starcraft were whining that not being able to cancel for free is unfair for zerg. Blizzard, always listening to the newbies, brought this issue up at the end of a meeting. The change seemed so innocent that nobody even tried to think of the implications, so they said "why not, let's do that".
Not being able to cancel for free is an IMPORTANT aspect of the game. No race can cancel for free. Terran and Protoss lose time, zerg loses larvae. Larvae = time.
If they keep the free cancel and add a hotfix on top of that, what do we have? The same result, but a cluttered game. Bad design.
Sometimes you have to resist the urge of giving in to the whining of newbies.
Fixing a problem by adding a new game mechanic is bad, it creates unnecessary clutter.
A good game has a small, clear and sharp set of rules. Not a catalogue of rules that only apply in certain circumstances.
On April 23 2010 22:50 AngryAsian wrote: It should give the larva back because it is not fair since all other races can cancel and rebuild. If the larva dies then zerg cannot rebuild.
Ok, cool, then they need to make it whenever there are any combination of eggs + larvae = 3 on a hatchery that it doesn't spawn more larvae
Say you have 4 eggs morphing and no larvae. You are making 4 ultralisks, so it takes a long time for them to be finished. For the whole duration of 75 seconds, the hatchery is not spawning new larvae. This would be silly, wouldn't it?
The best option is to just be able to cancel an egg within the time needed to spawn a new larva from the hatchery. I.e. if the time needed to spawn a new larva is 20 seconds, the ability to cancel a morphing egg is has to be removed after ~15 seconds (or at least some value under 20).
I don't see why they cant just let the larva mechanic work identical to how it worked in bw/pre patch 9
eggs are eggs (from hatcheries), larva is larva. You can have any combination of eggs + larvae (build and spawn times willing ofc) but your larva is never going to exceed 3.
If you have an egg morphing and 3 larva and cancel, you get no larva back. If you have 2 larva and 3 eggs morphing and cancel them all, you get 1 larva back. Queen eggs always refund larva
It's still a lot more forgiving than it ever was for zerg.
I'm just saying that if they want to change it so that you could cancel the morphing egg and get a larva back, the option that I proposed above makes sure you have a maximum of 3 larvae.
You'd also cripple larva production during creation of big units.
Just make the cancelled larva die if the Hatchery already has 3+ Larva i.e. You have 3 Larva and make a drone. Another larva pops up at 15s, if you cancel the egg at this point, the larva that would be created from cancelling the egg dies.
Of course the above also applies to your suggestion.
Plus it doesn't even fix anything: 3 larvae -> make 1 drone hatch spawns a new larva 3 larvae, 1 egg -> make 2 drones, cancel old egg hatch spawns new larva 3 larvae, 2 eggs -> make 3 drones, cancel old 2 eggs hatch spawns new larva make 3 pairs of lings, cancel 3 drone eggs, make 3 pairs of lings.
this is not a noob compliance. this is a zerg compliance it wouldn't apply in centain circumstances, it would be every time a zerg player cancels his unit
i'm afraid that blizzard will just make larvas spawn slower so people can't do the ridiculously powerful rushes but it won't fix the much bigger issue and that is drone-whoring and powerful zerg eco with no worries about fending off surprising attack, because they will be able to cancel the drones anytime and just build units.
On April 24 2010 00:12 spinesheath wrote: Terran and Protoss lose time, zerg loses larvae. Larvae = time.
Zerg also loses time though. I'm not saying that Zerg larval loss wasn't a good feature that made them harder which rebalanced other aspects that made them easier, but if Blizzard are rebalancing minor stuff then they're probably not just going to roll back the update because they cocked it up.
I agree that it's probably not a good move, but perhaps not for the same reasons as you. IMO race diversity is a really good thing and any changes designed to make the races more similar to each other is detrimental to the game.
On April 24 2010 00:17 nutopia wrote: this is not a noob compliance. this is a zerg compliance it wouldn't apply in centain circumstances, it would be every time a zerg player cancels his unit
I suppose this was in response to my post? I have never heard a decent zerg player complain about losing a larva from canceling. Again, all you lose is time because your hatch will spawn a new larva in at most 15 seconds. Terran and Protoss also lose time. It was perfectly fine the way it was before patch 9.
It would apply in certain circumstances: If I cancel an egg and have more than X larvae... If I cancel an egg and have less than Y larvae...
Two different situations, two different rules. That's bad. And unneccesary.
On April 24 2010 00:12 spinesheath wrote: Terran and Protoss lose time, zerg loses larvae. Larvae = time.
Zerg also loses time though. I'm not saying that Zerg larval loss wasn't a good feature that made them harder which rebalanced other aspects that made them easier, but if Blizzard are rebalancing minor stuff then they're probably not just going to roll back the update because they cocked it up.
I guess I should be more precise: Terran and Protoss are losing production time of one of their production facilities if they cancel a unit. Zerg was losing production time pre patch 9, as larvae ARE the manifestation of hatchery production time. Now zerg is NOT losing production time. Sure, the unit will be done a bit later than if it had been chosen right from the start, but the following units will not be delayed at all because there was no hatchery production time lost. Terran and Protoss units will be delayed throughout the rest of the game.
On April 24 2010 00:12 spinesheath wrote: Terran and Protoss lose time, zerg loses larvae. Larvae = time.
Zerg also loses time though. I'm not saying that Zerg larval loss wasn't a good feature that made them harder which rebalanced other aspects that made them easier, but if Blizzard are rebalancing minor stuff then they're probably not just going to roll back the update because they cocked it up.
I guess I should be more precise: Terran and Protoss are losing production time of one of their production facilities if they cancel a unit. Zerg was losing production time pre patch 9, as larvae ARE the manifestation of hatchery production time. Now zerg is NOT losing production time. Sure, the unit will be done a bit later than if it had been chosen right from the start, but the following units will not be delayed at all because there was no hatchery production time lost. Terran and Protoss units will be delayed throughout the rest of the game.
I see, so it's not even as simple as evening the playing field as far as unit production goes, but actually a buff that puts their production ahead of the other races.
I agree, it does feel ill advised, thanks for the clarification.
You can hold this off if you wall off fully with gate/forge (make sure your pylon isn't part of your wall or they'll kill that before the cannon gets up even if only 2 can hit it), but it sure as hell puts you way behind should they choose NOT to do this build.
[QUOTE]On April 24 2010 00:35 spinesheath wrote: [QUOTE]On April 24 2010 00:26 Chalks wrote: [QUOTE]On April 24 2010 00:12 spinesheath wrote: Terran and Protoss lose time, zerg loses larvae. Larvae = time. [/QUOTE]
Zerg also loses time though. I'm not saying that Zerg larval loss wasn't a good feature that made them harder which rebalanced other aspects that made them easier, but if Blizzard are rebalancing minor stuff then they're probably not just going to roll back the update because they cocked it up. [/QUOTE] I guess I should be more precise: Terran and Protoss are losing production time of one of their production facilities if they cancel a unit. Zerg was losing production time pre patch 9, as larvae ARE the manifestation of hatchery production time. Now zerg is NOT losing production time. Sure, the unit will be done a bit later than if it had been chosen right from the start, but the following units will not be delayed at all because there was no hatchery production time lost. Terran and Protoss units will be delayed throughout the rest of the game.[/QUOT
You do have a good point for the later game. But in the very beginning of the game, the loss of 1-2 larva can be crucial. It will mess up the timing and rush.
One way to fix this issue without taking away the cancel larvae without losing it, will be to make all cancelled(affects all races) units only give you 75% of their value back like buildings. To do this you need to build 4 drones and cancel them over the period? well thats 50 minerals down the tubes which is 2 zerglings you cannot make so it becomes almost traditional 6 pool again.
I know exactly how they can fix this, and no going back to how it was before I'd not the anwser.. both toss and T can cancel there units anytime they want.. I'm gonna post it on the beta fourms when I get home from work.
Couldnt you just raise the cost on the Spawning Pool slightly to delay? Frankly I kind of like how this restores the classic Zerg Rush as a more viable strategy. But to be honest any zerg gameplay that doesnt involve roaches is looking pretty appealing these days...
On April 24 2010 00:49 Archerofaiur wrote: Couldnt you just raise the cost on the Spawning Pool slightly to delay? Frankly I kind of like how this restores the classic Zerg Rush as a more viable strategy. But to be honest any zerg gameplay that doesnt involve roaches is looking pretty appealing these days...
10 zerglings vs. 1 marine is not a happy battle...
To make production cancelling a required strategy is not a good thing IMO. Unintentional exploits (bug or not) are unintentional and shouldn't be used as features.
If they're going to diversify Zerg away from roaches they should just set out to do that and do it properly.
As a Zerg player, I don't know why Blizzard would implement the change in the first place. It takes all of the decision making out of larvae management.
On April 24 2010 01:00 Saracen wrote: As a Zerg player, I don't know why Blizzard would implement the change in the first place. It takes all of the decision making out of larvae management.
PETA raided Blizzard HQ and demanded no Larva be hurt by human mistakes. I find it is useless as well since you have to hit the hot key 3 times to make 3 units.
On April 24 2010 00:49 Archerofaiur wrote: Couldnt you just raise the cost on the Spawning Pool slightly to delay? Frankly I kind of like how this restores the classic Zerg Rush as a more viable strategy. But to be honest any zerg gameplay that doesnt involve roaches is looking pretty appealing these days...
10 zerglings vs. 1 marine is not a happy battle...
Doesnt wall-in work. Ive been playing with this strategy allot and Terran walling in seems to counter it pretty well.
On April 24 2010 00:12 spinesheath wrote: Terran and Protoss lose time, zerg loses larvae. Larvae = time.
Zerg also loses time though. I'm not saying that Zerg larval loss wasn't a good feature that made them harder which rebalanced other aspects that made them easier, but if Blizzard are rebalancing minor stuff then they're probably not just going to roll back the update because they cocked it up.
I guess I should be more precise: Terran and Protoss are losing production time of one of their production facilities if they cancel a unit. Zerg was losing production time pre patch 9, as larvae ARE the manifestation of hatchery production time. Now zerg is NOT losing production time. Sure, the unit will be done a bit later than if it had been chosen right from the start, but the following units will not be delayed at all because there was no hatchery production time lost. Terran and Protoss units will be delayed throughout the rest of the game.
You do have a good point for the later game. But in the very beginning of the game, the loss of 1-2 larva can be crucial. It will mess up the timing and rush.
If you mess up early in the game and your opponent doesn't you lose. It has always been like that and should be like that. Absoluetly flawless execution in early game is one of the things that separates good players from great players.
On April 24 2010 00:49 Archerofaiur wrote: Couldnt you just raise the cost on the Spawning Pool slightly to delay? Frankly I kind of like how this restores the classic Zerg Rush as a more viable strategy. But to be honest any zerg gameplay that doesnt involve roaches is looking pretty appealing these days...
10 zerglings vs. 1 marine is not a happy battle...
Doesnt wall-in work. Ive been playing with this strategy allot and Terran walling in seems to counter it pretty well.
Sure it works.
But having to 7 scout 9 rax double wall-in every game to hold this off gets kind of boring, and that means you won't really be ahead in econ and the Zerg can FE.
Plus the ability to cancel eggs and get larva back is overpowered anyways, since there is much less punishment for powering drones.
IMO they should keep this and just get rid of maps with retardedly short rush distances, but hey, can't argue with blizzard wanting a 20 second stroll between mains.
On April 24 2010 02:01 Sentient wrote: Perhaps a noob question, but is there even a single map where you can block your choke with a single zealot? I've always used two for safety.
Only if you have buildling support. By himself a zealot will never block a primary choke point.
I'm really suprised no blizzard person has commented on this on the b.net forums.
Even if there was no early pool along with this somehow, the economic boost you could get from it would still be too strong. Hilarious 'oversight', if that's the case.
On April 24 2010 03:21 Sentient wrote: Do short games count against you? IE, could I just leave every game against a Zerg player and take no penalty?
Yup. Leaving the game, even right when you load in = loss. Even purposefully disconnecting when you see you're playing against Zerg will result in a loss. The other person will load into the game and you will time out. They'll get a win and you'll get a loss.
On April 24 2010 03:23 Kahnqueror wrote: Have we gotten ANY kind of recognition from Blizzard about this?
They are not one to give out recognition. I've posted many suggestions and bug reports on their forums but they've all eventually been addressed. I just hope this one is timely.
On April 24 2010 03:21 Sentient wrote: Do short games count against you? IE, could I just leave every game against a Zerg player and take no penalty?
Yup. Leaving the game, even right when you load in = loss. Even purposefully disconnecting when you see you're playing against Zerg will result in a loss. The other person will load into the game and you will time out. They'll get a win and you'll get a loss.
Meh, I guess I'll just stay loyal to Protoss and if I get placed in copper I can only hope the system moves me up after this problem is fixed.
The only way I survived was with a proper 1-zeal block and micro to keep initial two zealots from dying until the third arrived. I feel like this would be sufficiently difficult to pull off on smaller maps or maps with large chokes that it would routinely fail.
Worth note, however, is how badly this hurts the Zerg economy such that if it fails, there's really no reason for the Zerg to keep playing. IIRC, his average resource rate was about half mine.
On April 23 2010 22:50 AngryAsian wrote: It should give the larva back because it is not fair since all other races can cancel and rebuild. If the larva dies then zerg cannot rebuild.
Ok, cool, then they need to make it whenever there are any combination of eggs + larvae = 3 on a hatchery that it doesn't spawn more larvae
Say you have 4 eggs morphing and no larvae. You are making 4 ultralisks, so it takes a long time for them to be finished. For the whole duration of 75 seconds, the hatchery is not spawning new larvae. This would be silly, wouldn't it?
The best option is to just be able to cancel an egg within the time needed to spawn a new larva from the hatchery. I.e. if the time needed to spawn a new larva is 20 seconds, the ability to cancel a morphing egg is has to be removed after ~15 seconds (or at least some value under 20).
I don't see why they cant just let the larva mechanic work identical to how it worked in bw/pre patch 9
eggs are eggs (from hatcheries), larva is larva. You can have any combination of eggs + larvae (build and spawn times willing ofc) but your larva is never going to exceed 3.
If you have an egg morphing and 3 larva and cancel, you get no larva back. If you have 2 larva and 3 eggs morphing and cancel them all, you get 1 larva back. Queen eggs always refund larva
It's still a lot more forgiving than it ever was for zerg.
I'm just saying that if they want to change it so that you could cancel the morphing egg and get a larva back, the option that I proposed above makes sure you have a maximum of 3 larvae.
Dinkgus. This would make the queen quite useless, and force an early duel-hatch in base. Think about it: the protoss now have cronoboost to help produce workers the terran have Mules. having 3 larve cap would throw zerg way behind in SC2.
On April 24 2010 04:56 hwanikani wrote: I am pretty sure that it is not intented by blizzard (I am saying about extra larva creation, not about canceling morphing egg back to larva)
They sometimes do make mistakes.
It only applies post-patch, so we can assume that it's a mistake
On April 23 2010 22:50 AngryAsian wrote: It should give the larva back because it is not fair since all other races can cancel and rebuild. If the larva dies then zerg cannot rebuild.
Ok, cool, then they need to make it whenever there are any combination of eggs + larvae = 3 on a hatchery that it doesn't spawn more larvae
Say you have 4 eggs morphing and no larvae. You are making 4 ultralisks, so it takes a long time for them to be finished. For the whole duration of 75 seconds, the hatchery is not spawning new larvae. This would be silly, wouldn't it?
The best option is to just be able to cancel an egg within the time needed to spawn a new larva from the hatchery. I.e. if the time needed to spawn a new larva is 20 seconds, the ability to cancel a morphing egg is has to be removed after ~15 seconds (or at least some value under 20).
I don't see why they cant just let the larva mechanic work identical to how it worked in bw/pre patch 9
eggs are eggs (from hatcheries), larva is larva. You can have any combination of eggs + larvae (build and spawn times willing ofc) but your larva is never going to exceed 3.
If you have an egg morphing and 3 larva and cancel, you get no larva back. If you have 2 larva and 3 eggs morphing and cancel them all, you get 1 larva back. Queen eggs always refund larva
It's still a lot more forgiving than it ever was for zerg.
I'm just saying that if they want to change it so that you could cancel the morphing egg and get a larva back, the option that I proposed above makes sure you have a maximum of 3 larvae.
Dinkgus. This would make the queen quite useless, and force an early duel-hatch in base. Think about it: the protoss now have cronoboost to help produce workers the terran have Mules. having 3 larve cap would throw zerg way behind in SC2.
I've never liked the 3 larva cap (edit: I mean the way a hatchery with no queen will make 3 larvae and then just stop larva production). It feels too artificial. I'd much prefer larvae to have a fixed lifespan similar to that of broodlings, such that when your 4th larva is produced, your first larva dies of old age. The larva lifespan can be carried over into eggs, so that eggs made from fresh larvae can be cancelled in an advanced state of growth to get a stale larva, but eggs made from stale larvae will just dissolve into goo when cancelled.
This would also force you to be more strategic about when to use your queen to inject larvae, instead of just spamming it and wading around through seas of immortal larvae.
Fixed an issue where Larva were not dying after being cancelled. Fixed an issue with Banelings, Brood Lords, and Overseers obeying their original Hatchery's rally point.
It's from Patch10 patchnotes. Downloading it right now here in Germany.
edit: Those are the whole patchnotes for patch 10 btw.
On April 24 2010 15:33 forgotten0ne wrote: I've countered this 4 times now, it's so fucking easy.
10 pool (overpool) drone until 13 gas drone spine lings queen at 16 ovie more lings gg
Assuming the Z you're vs is actually doing that build. If not, that pre-emptive move tends to set you behind sometimes.
ZvP, all P needs to do when his probe scout finds it is to ready another probe to finish his wall. Terrans should have their wall up as well so no biggie.
Pretty much this should only ever really work against a P who doesn't open with gate forge or a Z going 13p or later. Exclude oasis and scrap station of course.
Fixed an issue where Larva were not dying after being cancelled. Fixed an issue with Banelings, Brood Lords, and Overseers obeying their original Hatchery's rally point.
It's from Patch10 patchnotes. Downloading it right now here in Germany.
edit: Those are the whole patchnotes for patch 10 btw.
EPT
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