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On April 19 2010 06:51 DrGabriel wrote:
For reals, did you play BW at all? Or did i just get trolled?
So you're about the 3'rd person to say this on the first page of replies.
What you're essentially saying here is that we want a bug to remain in the game so it stays true to the original? ...
If I right click on a unit, it should go to the unit, I don't want 1990's pathing, I don't mind if my other 4 Stalkers don't step out of the way to let the Immortal through but to have the Immortal go back forth in a bug loop is ridiculous.
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yeah, they should make units randomly stop moving or attacking so newbies cannot 1a2a3a and sc2 will be much more fun, skill intensive and require more micro than bw.
(its sarcasm btw)
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On April 19 2010 19:07 Doomgaze wrote:
So if any or all units would stop moving randomly, the game would be EVEN better, right? :s
Of course I realize that better players will be able to handle "broken" units better, but my point is, the "broken" aspects of certain units should not even exist in the first place.
Well, I think that's kind of an exaggeration of the issue. People that approve of the current pathing are not saying things like "the game would be better if you could only select and control one unit at a time because it raises the skill ceiling." They're saying that there needs to be a balance between what the AI does for you and what you as a player have to do to obtain maximum effectiveness of your units.
I think Nony's quote sums it up the best, so far. When out of combat, the pathfinding of the units is nearly flawless. You don't have to fight with yourself to get your units to behave. Once you engage in conflict with an opponent, things get a little more complicated and you'll have to issue tactical commands to get the most out of your army. However, if you don't issue those tactical commands, your army is still operating reasonably well.
It's not like units are randomly walking backwards across the map when they can't find a target (and I don't think very many players here would advocate a pathfinding system that causes their units to randomly walk backwards across the map). Units just don't function *perfectly* in combat without manual manipulation, which is desirable.
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I honestly don't see how this is still an argument in any way. The new AI pathing is retardedly stronger than its predecessor. Sure, there are some design choices about building attacking prioritization that I would have done differently myself, but design-wise, its a million times better than BW.
Micro will always be involved, though. The AI can't do EVERYTHING for you. Has nothing to do with a "retarded AI," a player should still need to intervene.
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I stepped out of this thread because it was never an actual debate about whether or not the pathfinding was working as intended or if it is bugged.
Everyone here jumped on the "your a noob, learn to micro" bandwagon. Just because players learned to adapt to a BUGGY unit in sc1 doesnt justify buggy pathfinding in sc2.
What I don't understand is how you all honestly think correctly working pathfinding is going to make one player any better than he was before. Or that MBS or automine is somehow going to increase the level of play from a player. Get real, the time you are no longer spending to do those actions will be spent elsewhere. You will still be making better decisions, more controlled movements, etc.
There really isnt any debate here. Most agree its buggy, but try to sound "leet" by saying its not an issue. The unit collision feature is causing the pathfinding to act buggy. Bottom line, its not acceptable in games these days. Pathfinding is a perfected technology. Games should be moving forward, not backwards.
I agree with the one post about just making all the units stop randomly. A bug is a bug, how well players adapt to it should not determine if its fixed. Nor does it change the gap between skill levels.
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Took me quite a while back when i played bw to get dragoons to not be completely retarded and just fight in an orderly fashion, i don't want to do that again :D
The programming explanation is not bad, i thought they had a very simple greedy type algoritm so maybe replacing it with an A* or just adding more depth to the search would make it better. With so many units, the pathfinding needs to stay simple to not lag out the cpu i guess, so A* would be hard to get. If it's the fluidity going back and forth it's an easy fix, i hope you guessed right.
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On April 20 2010 04:45 jeremycafe wrote:
I agree with the one post about just making all the units stop randomly. A bug is a bug, how well players adapt to it should not determine if its fixed. Nor does it change the gap between skill levels.
Well, again, this is just going a little overboard. You asked in the OP whether we agree that there is a problem with pathfinding. The general response you received is "no, we do not find the pathfinding to be hindering gameplay." Your response above is akin to saying, "Well, how about the designers implement bugs that make the game unplayable. Then you'll see that I'm right." That's a totally different situation. If the pathfinding were hindering gameplay, we'd be right there with you. But that's not the case.
So far, the current pathfinding works perfectly fine outside of combat and provides interesting competitive gameplay during combat. So what exactly is your complaint?
If it's just that the units are "twitchy," then remember that it's still a Beta and some of those jittery animations may be worked out before release. If you really feel that there is a gameplay problem, then spell it out.
On April 20 2010 04:45 jeremycafe wrote:
What I don't understand is how you all honestly think correctly working pathfinding is going to make one player any better than he was before. Or that MBS or automine is somehow going to increase the level of play from a player. Get real, the time you are no longer spending to do those actions will be spent elsewhere. You will still be making better decisions, more controlled movements, etc.
MBS and automine aren't really being argued here. Yes, there was concern over those, but blizzard implemented other, more meaningful, macro mechanics such as Mule, Chronoboost, and spawn larva to fill in the gap. Generally, there have been favorable responses to those mechanics.
If you're arguing that all units should move in perfect formation, forcing their way past other units to a position from which they can attack, then you're going to meet resistance. It would reduce the complexity of unit control in Starcraft. I don't know how that's arguable.
If you're only arguing that a unit blocked by other units should try to move AROUND those units instead of waiting patiently behind those units, then you may have a reasonable request - but it's tough in a fast paced game like Starcraft where there are high volumes of quick moving fragile units engaged in dynamic combat scenarios. Generally, players want to maintain as much control over their units as possible and having them wander out of position while looking for an opening may be less advantageous than having them wait nearby while manually moving other units out of the way.
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EPT
