On April 18 2010 15:02 Gokain wrote: I have not denied that I have made no contribution to the community
...
in the post you quoted, I describe the people who have done less than I have.
Less than nothing?
Correct. Didn't even bother to do as little as I have, which is apparently "nothing".
You yourself said you made no contribution, ie doing nothing. How does one do less than what you've done? Just curious.
I made no contribution. But I have described my actions and provided a rationale to my motivations. That is apparently considered "nothing" by this community. Yet, people have done less than that much. There you go.
Ah. I see. You consider your selfish begging here in this thread to be contributing, somehow. I suppose it does add "content" to the site, so I guess you're right in some way...
I nominated myself. For those who don't know me. My akas are NeO)RoMeO, NeO)Coach, NeO)HpnOtiQ. Former co-leader of team New Elite Order NeO) USEast. movies
Here is where I set up various clanwars vs some of the top european teams. Also arranged some feature showmatches for some of our players to help with their gg.net rankings. Players who were in NeO at the time were IdrA, iNcontroL, Testie, IefNaij, XiaOzI, LzGaMeR, ReSpOnSe, AsS, CrAzY, HuNtAh. Former manager and organizer of team United States A National for WGTour+ICCup. Managed and organized nationwars for us while we were located on www.bwusa.org and while we were in iccup nations league. Organized a tournament for the usa players as well. Players who were in the usa-a at the time were IdrA, NonY, iNcontroL, Artosis, CypressMan, G5, Machine, LzGaMeR, Skew, ReSpOnSe. I would also like to note. I moved Machine and LzGaMeR up from USA-B to USA-A based on their USA-B activity & performance. Added ReSpOnSe. Former GosuGamers.net GosuBet & Database Admin. Added 1338 gosubets & updated various profile and photos on starcraft rankings database that still remain today. Former PGTour.net Tournament admin. Currently I'm a Brigadier General of OverDosed under the name Tester(OD).
Here is my tl.net history. Topic Starters: Tourneys & Leagues: (OD) Invitational Tournament > RoMeO 160 9531 04:42 Mar 17 2009 NeO) Invitational Tournament > RoMeO 48 4148 04:23 Mar 19 2008 Patriotic Eagles Tournament 2007 > RoMeO 80 4440 12:00 Dec 18 2007 Dreiven versus IefNaij LIVE! RoMeO 15 955 19:43 Dec 8 2007 WCG SC: BW 08 Final Group Drawing > Coach 233 22478 03:59 Nov 7 2008 Top WCG contenders examined > Coach 44 2280 20:35 Oct 2 2007 WCG 07 StarCraft Match Schedule > Coach 113 9490 06:45 Oct 7 2007 WCG Malaysia 2007 Coach 13 1322 02:07 Sep 12 2007 WCG SC: BW 07 Final Group Drawing > Coach 224 19566 13:58 Oct 6 2007 Brood War: GGNT: USA vs Germany > RoMeO 21 1312 03:18 Nov 13 2007 Nation War: USAA vs. USAB Replay Package > RoMeO 140 6667 23:21 Oct 31 2007 Video Interview: MYM.Testie @ BlizzCon > Coach 40 3019 13:06 Aug 4 2007 NaDa Lee, Pro StarCraft Gamer > Coach 29 6276 03:22 Jun 16 2007 KeSPA Rankings - History > Coach 57 4244 02:17 Jul 4 2007 KeSPA Rankings - June 2007 > Coach 23 2289 16:41 Jun 2 2007 KeSPA Rankings - May 2007 > Coach 34 2413 01:17 May 2 2007 Starcraft 2: ZOTAC StarCraft 2 Beta Cup this Sunday! > RoMeO 100 10467 17:57 Mar 1 2010 [Very 1st SC2 Beta ZOTAC News G4 StarCraft II Coverage Coach 12 1047 16:51 Jun 15 2007 StarCraft 2 Unit Added - Phoenix > Coach 31 2726 23:48 Jun 17 2007 Closed: PET07 - G5 vs Skew LIVE! RoMeO 6 565 13:36 Dec 19 2007 WCG 07 SC: BW SE Tournament > RoMeO 21 1653 00:50 Oct 7 2007 Microsoft Surface ( Future ) > Coach 22 826 21:26 Jul 30 2007 Who is who - iCCup Season I > Coach 420 35374 13:55 Jun 27 2007 [Very 1st Who is ICCup] User Streams: [Stream] RoMeO RoMeO 0 109 04:45 Apr 2 2010
On April 18 2010 14:12 eSen1a wrote: Offtopic but what I really dont understand, is WHY in starcraft do you guys write ESPORTS in all capital letters???
TL inside joke. Read some of Kennigit's old news posts.
Posting my thoughts as I read through the last 20 pages that have accumulated since 5 hours ago... geez. Some things may be addressed already, so hell, ignore me if you want~
On April 18 2010 07:36 3FFA wrote: I think that TL handled this all wrong though. Why no drawing at all? That makes it so that there is no point in this. You could've at least selected some more users that are great contributors(like in the news post) instead of doing this. Now that I realize whats happening for real I just wish I hadn't nominated myself at all. -.- I'm starting to wonder why I should trust TL's staff at all anymore.
edit: edited for change of meaning.
Why do you think all the keys from the nomination thread are being used in this contest?
Ya but I didn't realize how they would handle the contest. This is just cruel. They should have just said that you can't nominate yourself instead of "and yes, you can nominate yourself".
Nah, they're just trying to extract as much amusement from the keys as possible while giving them away. Good entertainment for the rest of us.
Ya but for those who opted-in its just cruel and mean. I might've expected this from the normal users but not the STAFF! =(
I think you're taking this way too seriously. A lot of new users have posted and interacted a lot in this thread, and as a result we've gotten to know them much better. That's a positive side effect we can take away from this regardless of what happens.
I agree with Hot_Bid here. We've definitely learned a lot more about the lurkers that have sprung into action and definitely gained at least a few new good members for TL. Welcome, guys.
On April 18 2010 08:32 Bear4188 wrote: As a newbie, I'm going to try to summarize what the hell is going on here.
1) TL offered up the opportunity for members to nominate anyone in the community who they thought were deserving of a beta key.
2) Some people self nominated. Some are arguably deserving people who wanted to make sure they didn't get overlooked. Others were people who were making their first post a "LOL GIMME A KEY."
3) Members of the community (not just people with an account, but people who've stuck around for awhile) are upset that people are hijacking what was seemingly intended to put keys in the hands of people who would greatly appreciate them.
4) TL creates this thread such that self nominees could either explain themselves or withdraw their nomination upon realizing the real intent of the giveaway.
5) Some new posters see that the contest was not meant to be a raffle, but as an effort to get them to community contributors. They withdraw stating that they misunderstood and might even be interested in partaking in the community in the future
6) The few worthy self nominees see that things have gotten a little out of hand and pull out as well, knowing that they'll still be recognized by their community if they are actually worthy.
7) The rest, having the intent of the nominations explained to them, continue to insist that they are still more deserving of keys earmarked for members of the TL community than contributing members of said community. They are met with derision.
As an aside, to new people claiming the community is unwelcoming: I am myself a newbie. The difference is I did not come here expecting to be given anything. I came here to watch some of the awesome streams, read the threads, and participate however I can. Without a key I obviously couldn't contribute any meaningful in game knowledge. However, TL is an esports site, and that consists of several things. Even without a key you can contribute as a spectator. There are multiple threads from streamers who want input whether it be questions to be answered, feedback on quality, topics of interest, etc. So, you can still contribute and will find the existing community to be welcoming of you (as evidenced by the keys awarded to myself and 11 other newbies for making an effort to join the community). If you're not at all interested in watching esports than this site probably isn't for you anyway.
On April 18 2010 07:56 phlamez wrote: Some food for thought. Imagine you're on a lifeboat with a maximum capacity of 30 people and currently there are 60. You have to self opt yourselves to drown in order to save others and if none of you choose to do so you'll all drown. Do you want to do nothing and hope that other people are better human beings than you or take responsibility over your own fate and do something that might actually matter.
Once again someone with a bad analogy. The keys won't be destroyed if people don't opt out. People won't drown if people don't sacrifice themselves. They'll just find a better way of deciding who gets the keys/lifeboat seat. Wanting this contest to fail is the best course of action imo, cause the process of determining who gets a key is fucked up and doesn't even match with the intention of picking who's the most deserving.
Read the entire post before commenting. 1. Its an analogy, are you serious? People won't drown if they don't opt out of this contest? Really? I had no idea when I suggested that the situation would be similar that no one was drowning in this contest. My bad. 2. The intentions do match up, the intention has always been to promote community, initially this was through rewarding those who have contributed to this community, now its through demonstrating that when it comes down to it we can still behave as a community and be truly happy for others in this community to have keys. 3. Read my original post, the keys may not be destroyed if the people don't opt out, but our sense of community will certainly take a hit. Maybe I'm the only person who feels this way but I will certainly think a lot less of TL and of the people belonging to it if the people in this thread can't look beyond their own self interests. 4. You don't seem to get that the situation has changed, it's not simply a question of who gets keys anymore, its about how people behave when presented with this situation. The beta isn't going to last forever, everyone will get to play the game at some point, who gets or who doesn't get a key will have little impact, how you all behave today will have a much more lasting impression.
About 1, you were the one who brought up the analogy where drowning would be the equivalent of no one wins, when in fact that is not the case. If no one wins, the keys will be distributed again. 2. The intention was to give people who are most deserving the key. People have various reasons for staying or opting out, not necessarily because they want to promote community. If there's one bad apple, which there is bound to be, the whole intention of the contest goes tits up. 3. The contest was designed to fail from the start, I don't see how you could expect it to succeed. In the perfect world, those who dont think they deserve the key would step down in favor of those who do. In reality, that's not true. So even if this contest ends up with winners, they won't be the most deserving like intended and leave a bad taste in the mouths of those who were more deserving than them. 4. In the long run, it will have little impact. TL has a chance of showing what kind of community they promote, yet this contest is pitting people against eachother and those who are selfless are not the ones being rewarded if this contest succeeds.
1. I was being sarcastic, my point was that analogies aren't supposed to be 1 to 1. 2. Implicit in the idea of giving people who are most deserving of the key is the idea of community. You have control over your intentions and the intentions of others aren't an excuse to not act. 3. This is ridiculously jaded, and I don't believe for a second that hotbid designed this contest to fail.
This 'test' puts too much faith in the community. HotBid is being incredibly naive if he thinks the community will sort itself out, especially if the community is composed of new members who just registered and have low attachment to TL, and they have the same say as everyone else.
You could have someone staying in the contest... ..because they truly believe they deserve it over someone else ..because they're an ass ..because they want to prevent that ass from getting a key ..because they have no faith in the design and want to see the keys handed out a better way ...
You could have someone opting out cause... ...they feel they're undeserving compared to the rest. ...they want to appear to be selfless to the community, regarldless if they are or not. ...they didn't check the forums ...they think opt-outers will win despite what HB says since he's made up rules on the fly ...
Basically, whether or not this contest has winners is not telling of a good community. I personally rather see this contest fail.
Bolding by me. As far back as I can remember, a community generally entails people working together and benefiting for some greater collective cause. How are people that don't have any vested interest in said cause part of the community? Hot_Bid has been more than fair for this entire thing, and everybody hating on him needs to rethink what they have said, since he's been a very gracious host through all of this.
On April 18 2010 08:49 baller wrote: TL have a rule in the 10 commandments that says "thou shalt contribute to the site". this 10 commandments is linked 2 every new user so they have to read it b4 posting. but many of these users (including urself) didnt contribute and just spammed to get a key, so u violated a commandment (rule of TL).
so no, 20 post users who didnt contribute and then entered the contest didnt follow the rules.
u gonna change ur life philosophy now??
Nice assumptions! If im gonna change philosophy, your assumptions is the last thing i will take into consideration.
i just checked your post history because i was curious about whether or not baller was correct. while it's true that you registered in 2009, simply registering an account on TL doesn't make you part of the community.
so lets take a look at what you have contributed to TL:
15 total posts 4 of them are in "Nominate Someone to Win a Beta Key" including one post being an image macro (these were your 3 of your first 4 posts) 1 post speculating about balancing force field 10 of them are in this thread, "Beta Key Self-Nominators"
sounds like you fit the bill of "didnt contribute and just spammed to get a key" pretty well.
baller and LosingID8 are right here. Thou shalt contribute~
On April 18 2010 09:04 chongu wrote: I would like to withdraw my name from the self-nomination list... It seems life's catching up unto me : (...
instead, I would like to nominate all the streamers and translators: konadora, mystlord, boes, quickstriker, l10f, roffles, lyriene and etc
I can always get a beta key some other time ^^
You are a kind person.
On April 18 2010 09:32 IndecisivePenguin wrote: I officially opt-out
Regardless of the result, I'm going to place my faith in TL. I don't know whether or not this is a legitimate scenario. Some speculate that it is simply an experiment designed to prove a point. Others speculate it is legit. What stops it from being both? I don't know, it could be, or it could just be one of them. Either way, I think things will be good in the end.
Although I still feel that getting a beta key would be highly beneficial to my cause, my worth to this community and the YouTube is not going to be defined by having or not having a beta key. And to go even further, my intentions of contributing are not going to be defined by it either.
This whole scenario appears to have warped into something quite twisted, but because we don't really know what's going on behind-the-scenes, we could simply have a distorted perception. There might not be anything to fret over at all.
I can't really pinpoint in my mind exactly what the reason is for my decision to opt-out. It might be because I believe that I can still contribute something legitimate without it, that I don't need it to do something for TL and the YouTube community. It might be because I realize that this isn't the end; that beta opportunities will come in the future, and that SC2 is still very young. It might just be because I'm tired. Or it might be for a completely different reason that I can't seem to think of at the moment.
I opt-out and hope for the best, for everyone. Cheers to all. TL ftw.
As said above, we have gained some good new members, and you are amongst them. Welcome to TL.net.
On April 18 2010 09:47 DarkArchon wrote: i want a key!
On April 18 2010 09:51 Cheree wrote: Semantics aside, why would the contest state it's okay to nominate yourself if you think you're deserving if they would be shunned from the community like this? That's a cruel design from the start. There's so many reasons why someone would nominate themselves that isn't shameful. There's also so many reasons why someone would that is shameful. You can't just judge people categorically like that.
We don't control our users thoughts. What Moderators intend to happen and what actually happens are two different things. Kennigit said "its OK to nominate yourself if you think you are deserving" and expected only a few TL vets or contributors to self-nominate. Instead, he got hundreds of newly registered users. People can do a lot of things within the rules set out by site Moderators, but simply abiding by rules does not mean those people somehow gain immunity from other users' criticism.
I agree with how neither you, nor other TL staff are responsible for users' thoughts. What you are responsible for is what rules you set in place, how you act, and what values you propogate. The classy thing would have been to respectfully dismiss submissions from people who are new/weak contributors and give keys out to who the staff thinks are the most deserving individual from the nominees. Rather, you decided to single out all the self-nominees and invite public critique of their behavior and expecting them to sort it out. You really thought this would work? How naive can you be?
lol wtf do you mean "did you think this will work"? It is working. You forum nubs are working together to weed each other out. We're getting entertained. That's all that matters, not your subjective definition of "class" . So stfu with your indignation about the rules, as none were changed or broken, and if you really find things to be so distasteful than don't participate.
Is the hate really needed? >.>
On April 18 2010 10:30 PokePill wrote: Are we still allowed to opt in? I want to nominate myself still.
On April 18 2010 09:51 Cheree wrote: Semantics aside, why would the contest state it's okay to nominate yourself if you think you're deserving if they would be shunned from the community like this? That's a cruel design from the start. There's so many reasons why someone would nominate themselves that isn't shameful. There's also so many reasons why someone would that is shameful. You can't just judge people categorically like that.
We don't control our users thoughts. What Moderators intend to happen and what actually happens are two different things. Kennigit said "its OK to nominate yourself if you think you are deserving" and expected only a few TL vets or contributors to self-nominate. Instead, he got hundreds of newly registered users. People can do a lot of things within the rules set out by site Moderators, but simply abiding by rules does not mean those people somehow gain immunity from other users' criticism.
I agree with how neither you, nor other TL staff are responsible for users' thoughts. What you are responsible for is what rules you set in place, how you act, and what values you propogate. The classy thing would have been to respectfully dismiss submissions from people who are new/weak contributors and give keys out to who the staff thinks are the most deserving individual from the nominees. Rather, you decided to single out all the self-nominees and invite public critique of their behavior and expecting them to sort it out. You really thought this would work? How naive can you be?
lol wtf do you mean "did you think this will work"? It is working. You forum nubs are working together to weed each other out. We're getting entertained. That's all that matters, not your subjective definition of "class" . So stfu with your indignation about the rules, as none were changed or broken, and if you really find things to be so distasteful than don't participate.
You're getting entertained at the cost of individuals who did nothing wrong. (So am I for that matter, but I've chosen to defend em. :p) My subjective opinion of class is my own, it only effects my perspective of the members here and that's what I'm sharing. If you don't care, then don't reply to me. And if someone finds things to be distasteful, they should shut up and take it rather than speak out about it?
exactly. you're subjective opinion is your OWN: don't expect others to follow it. in other words, don't impose YOUR opinion of a definition onto an organization and claim it's a valid argument. And yeah, I don't care for your opinion. But like you said in your last sentence, since I find your opinion distasteful, especially within the context of the workings of this site, I will tell you to shut the fuck up so there can be a reduction of irrelevant posts in regards to this game. If you want to discuss validity of intent or whatever, go pm hotbid and stop complaining publicly. we're waiting for this event to unfold, not to hear some newbie wax indignant of his ideas of class and righteousness.
actually there's nothing to wait for. It was clear from the begining how this unfolds.
you can be like the big black dude on the prisoner boat in batman who threw the remote and beat the system!!! it could happen!!!
That was an epic part.
On April 18 2010 11:18 zTz wrote: The majority of you posting this thread have turned a nice gesture offerig the self nomnated, or even offering to give out 50 in the first place... To a bash against TL. If you are one o the bashers why would you expect to get anything from someone you are targeting? As for bashing anyone else trying to get a beta key it's kind of hippocritical isn't t? That you'd be hating on someone for wantin the same thing as you and tryig to get it the same way as you?
The TL staff could of said "lol stupid noobs" and given it to any body they wanted, but instead they had scavenger hunts, nominations, a tournament, and some high tech quizzes that blew my mind.
Thank them (as ilovestarcraft told me to be doing in general...), don't hate them. Jealousy is an ugly trait. ...see I even made a friend onthis thread, not to mention 2 long lost friends who saw my name and contacted me via PM; for that I thank you Hot_Bid.
Guys who are hating, please take more notice of this post.
On April 18 2010 13:05 IndecisivePenguin wrote: So even if no one got keys, we got a lot of lurkers out of the dark, eh?
Most will go back to the dark.
On April 18 2010 13:43 ffz wrote: 1st post ever for a lurker...
I'd like to go back in time and nominate myself. J/K my computer can't run it anyway But it made me register!
Good, now be an active and helpful poster!
On April 18 2010 14:13 iNviSible.yunO wrote: yea people please withdraw so i can get a key! i really need one! iam gonna stay in the contest!
people maybe you should sometimes think about asking "WHY?"
for example WHY is Hot_Bid doing this? Where is he going with it? What are his intensions?
the most likely explanation (at least to me) is that in the end, the keys will be given to some of the people who chose to WITHDRAW. because they are the ones who learned their lesson. i honestly doubt that any of those green dudes that chose to stay in it will get a key.
i might be wrong but this is the only thing that actually makes sense.
i really cant stand selfish people. very few can. and there is a very good reason why that is the case.
so THINK before posting damnit! edit: and dont be selfish. this is supposed to be the greatest sc community ever!
edit: iam not on the list. i thought that was obvious after reading the contend of this spoiler 8/ .
On April 18 2010 14:21 Cheree wrote: My hunch is that none of the contest organizers believe anyone will get a key out of this, despite what they say. It's simply for amusement at the expense of others who don't deserve it.
What a deduction! Man, you're one of the dullest white knights ever.
Ok, I drop out. Before I do this however, I must say how big of a misunderstanding this whole 'contest' is. Many seem to still believe that the keys being handed out in this 'contest' are the same as in the real nomination thread, it has been said by Hot_Bid to not be so.
So either TL got more keys and decided to make a contest out of it or they don't have any and they decided to make a contest out of it... I'd really like for this to not be a hoax, I'd want my dropping out to have the chance of meaning something for someone else.
Best of luck to the remaining 'contestants'.
P.S. To the moderators of TL, please don't ever do something like this again because it's just ridiculous.
Now I'm interested to see if enough people were cut down for keys to be given out ^_^ Best of luck to those who did not opt out, hopefully it goes to the deserving!
On April 18 2010 16:00 flamewheel91 wrote: Posting my thoughts as I read through the last 20 pages that have accumulated since 5 hours ago... geez. Some things may be addressed already, so hell, ignore me if you want~
On April 18 2010 07:36 3FFA wrote: I think that TL handled this all wrong though. Why no drawing at all? That makes it so that there is no point in this. You could've at least selected some more users that are great contributors(like in the news post) instead of doing this. Now that I realize whats happening for real I just wish I hadn't nominated myself at all. -.- I'm starting to wonder why I should trust TL's staff at all anymore.
edit: edited for change of meaning.
Why do you think all the keys from the nomination thread are being used in this contest?
Ya but I didn't realize how they would handle the contest. This is just cruel. They should have just said that you can't nominate yourself instead of "and yes, you can nominate yourself".
Nah, they're just trying to extract as much amusement from the keys as possible while giving them away. Good entertainment for the rest of us.
Ya but for those who opted-in its just cruel and mean. I might've expected this from the normal users but not the STAFF! =(
I think you're taking this way too seriously. A lot of new users have posted and interacted a lot in this thread, and as a result we've gotten to know them much better. That's a positive side effect we can take away from this regardless of what happens.
I agree with Hot_Bid here. We've definitely learned a lot more about the lurkers that have sprung into action and definitely gained at least a few new good members for TL. Welcome, guys.
On April 18 2010 08:32 Bear4188 wrote: As a newbie, I'm going to try to summarize what the hell is going on here.
1) TL offered up the opportunity for members to nominate anyone in the community who they thought were deserving of a beta key.
2) Some people self nominated. Some are arguably deserving people who wanted to make sure they didn't get overlooked. Others were people who were making their first post a "LOL GIMME A KEY."
3) Members of the community (not just people with an account, but people who've stuck around for awhile) are upset that people are hijacking what was seemingly intended to put keys in the hands of people who would greatly appreciate them.
4) TL creates this thread such that self nominees could either explain themselves or withdraw their nomination upon realizing the real intent of the giveaway.
5) Some new posters see that the contest was not meant to be a raffle, but as an effort to get them to community contributors. They withdraw stating that they misunderstood and might even be interested in partaking in the community in the future
6) The few worthy self nominees see that things have gotten a little out of hand and pull out as well, knowing that they'll still be recognized by their community if they are actually worthy.
7) The rest, having the intent of the nominations explained to them, continue to insist that they are still more deserving of keys earmarked for members of the TL community than contributing members of said community. They are met with derision.
As an aside, to new people claiming the community is unwelcoming: I am myself a newbie. The difference is I did not come here expecting to be given anything. I came here to watch some of the awesome streams, read the threads, and participate however I can. Without a key I obviously couldn't contribute any meaningful in game knowledge. However, TL is an esports site, and that consists of several things. Even without a key you can contribute as a spectator. There are multiple threads from streamers who want input whether it be questions to be answered, feedback on quality, topics of interest, etc. So, you can still contribute and will find the existing community to be welcoming of you (as evidenced by the keys awarded to myself and 11 other newbies for making an effort to join the community). If you're not at all interested in watching esports than this site probably isn't for you anyway.
On April 18 2010 07:56 phlamez wrote: Some food for thought. Imagine you're on a lifeboat with a maximum capacity of 30 people and currently there are 60. You have to self opt yourselves to drown in order to save others and if none of you choose to do so you'll all drown. Do you want to do nothing and hope that other people are better human beings than you or take responsibility over your own fate and do something that might actually matter.
Once again someone with a bad analogy. The keys won't be destroyed if people don't opt out. People won't drown if people don't sacrifice themselves. They'll just find a better way of deciding who gets the keys/lifeboat seat. Wanting this contest to fail is the best course of action imo, cause the process of determining who gets a key is fucked up and doesn't even match with the intention of picking who's the most deserving.
Read the entire post before commenting. 1. Its an analogy, are you serious? People won't drown if they don't opt out of this contest? Really? I had no idea when I suggested that the situation would be similar that no one was drowning in this contest. My bad. 2. The intentions do match up, the intention has always been to promote community, initially this was through rewarding those who have contributed to this community, now its through demonstrating that when it comes down to it we can still behave as a community and be truly happy for others in this community to have keys. 3. Read my original post, the keys may not be destroyed if the people don't opt out, but our sense of community will certainly take a hit. Maybe I'm the only person who feels this way but I will certainly think a lot less of TL and of the people belonging to it if the people in this thread can't look beyond their own self interests. 4. You don't seem to get that the situation has changed, it's not simply a question of who gets keys anymore, its about how people behave when presented with this situation. The beta isn't going to last forever, everyone will get to play the game at some point, who gets or who doesn't get a key will have little impact, how you all behave today will have a much more lasting impression.
About 1, you were the one who brought up the analogy where drowning would be the equivalent of no one wins, when in fact that is not the case. If no one wins, the keys will be distributed again. 2. The intention was to give people who are most deserving the key. People have various reasons for staying or opting out, not necessarily because they want to promote community. If there's one bad apple, which there is bound to be, the whole intention of the contest goes tits up. 3. The contest was designed to fail from the start, I don't see how you could expect it to succeed. In the perfect world, those who dont think they deserve the key would step down in favor of those who do. In reality, that's not true. So even if this contest ends up with winners, they won't be the most deserving like intended and leave a bad taste in the mouths of those who were more deserving than them. 4. In the long run, it will have little impact. TL has a chance of showing what kind of community they promote, yet this contest is pitting people against eachother and those who are selfless are not the ones being rewarded if this contest succeeds.
1. I was being sarcastic, my point was that analogies aren't supposed to be 1 to 1. 2. Implicit in the idea of giving people who are most deserving of the key is the idea of community. You have control over your intentions and the intentions of others aren't an excuse to not act. 3. This is ridiculously jaded, and I don't believe for a second that hotbid designed this contest to fail.
This 'test' puts too much faith in the community. HotBid is being incredibly naive if he thinks the community will sort itself out, especially if the community is composed of new members who just registered and have low attachment to TL, and they have the same say as everyone else.
You could have someone staying in the contest... ..because they truly believe they deserve it over someone else ..because they're an ass ..because they want to prevent that ass from getting a key ..because they have no faith in the design and want to see the keys handed out a better way ...
You could have someone opting out cause... ...they feel they're undeserving compared to the rest. ...they want to appear to be selfless to the community, regarldless if they are or not. ...they didn't check the forums ...they think opt-outers will win despite what HB says since he's made up rules on the fly ...
Basically, whether or not this contest has winners is not telling of a good community. I personally rather see this contest fail.
Bolding by me. As far back as I can remember, a community generally entails people working together and benefiting for some greater collective cause. How are people that don't have any vested interest in said cause part of the community? Hot_Bid has been more than fair for this entire thing, and everybody hating on him needs to rethink what they have said, since he's been a very gracious host through all of this.
On April 18 2010 08:49 baller wrote: TL have a rule in the 10 commandments that says "thou shalt contribute to the site". this 10 commandments is linked 2 every new user so they have to read it b4 posting. but many of these users (including urself) didnt contribute and just spammed to get a key, so u violated a commandment (rule of TL).
so no, 20 post users who didnt contribute and then entered the contest didnt follow the rules.
u gonna change ur life philosophy now??
Nice assumptions! If im gonna change philosophy, your assumptions is the last thing i will take into consideration.
i just checked your post history because i was curious about whether or not baller was correct. while it's true that you registered in 2009, simply registering an account on TL doesn't make you part of the community.
so lets take a look at what you have contributed to TL:
15 total posts 4 of them are in "Nominate Someone to Win a Beta Key" including one post being an image macro (these were your 3 of your first 4 posts) 1 post speculating about balancing force field 10 of them are in this thread, "Beta Key Self-Nominators"
sounds like you fit the bill of "didnt contribute and just spammed to get a key" pretty well.
baller and LosingID8 are right here. Thou shalt contribute~
On April 18 2010 09:32 IndecisivePenguin wrote: I officially opt-out
Regardless of the result, I'm going to place my faith in TL. I don't know whether or not this is a legitimate scenario. Some speculate that it is simply an experiment designed to prove a point. Others speculate it is legit. What stops it from being both? I don't know, it could be, or it could just be one of them. Either way, I think things will be good in the end.
Although I still feel that getting a beta key would be highly beneficial to my cause, my worth to this community and the YouTube is not going to be defined by having or not having a beta key. And to go even further, my intentions of contributing are not going to be defined by it either.
This whole scenario appears to have warped into something quite twisted, but because we don't really know what's going on behind-the-scenes, we could simply have a distorted perception. There might not be anything to fret over at all.
I can't really pinpoint in my mind exactly what the reason is for my decision to opt-out. It might be because I believe that I can still contribute something legitimate without it, that I don't need it to do something for TL and the YouTube community. It might be because I realize that this isn't the end; that beta opportunities will come in the future, and that SC2 is still very young. It might just be because I'm tired. Or it might be for a completely different reason that I can't seem to think of at the moment.
I opt-out and hope for the best, for everyone. Cheers to all. TL ftw.
As said above, we have gained some good new members, and you are amongst them. Welcome to TL.net.
On April 18 2010 09:51 Cheree wrote: Semantics aside, why would the contest state it's okay to nominate yourself if you think you're deserving if they would be shunned from the community like this? That's a cruel design from the start. There's so many reasons why someone would nominate themselves that isn't shameful. There's also so many reasons why someone would that is shameful. You can't just judge people categorically like that.
We don't control our users thoughts. What Moderators intend to happen and what actually happens are two different things. Kennigit said "its OK to nominate yourself if you think you are deserving" and expected only a few TL vets or contributors to self-nominate. Instead, he got hundreds of newly registered users. People can do a lot of things within the rules set out by site Moderators, but simply abiding by rules does not mean those people somehow gain immunity from other users' criticism.
I agree with how neither you, nor other TL staff are responsible for users' thoughts. What you are responsible for is what rules you set in place, how you act, and what values you propogate. The classy thing would have been to respectfully dismiss submissions from people who are new/weak contributors and give keys out to who the staff thinks are the most deserving individual from the nominees. Rather, you decided to single out all the self-nominees and invite public critique of their behavior and expecting them to sort it out. You really thought this would work? How naive can you be?
lol wtf do you mean "did you think this will work"? It is working. You forum nubs are working together to weed each other out. We're getting entertained. That's all that matters, not your subjective definition of "class" . So stfu with your indignation about the rules, as none were changed or broken, and if you really find things to be so distasteful than don't participate.
On April 18 2010 09:51 Cheree wrote: Semantics aside, why would the contest state it's okay to nominate yourself if you think you're deserving if they would be shunned from the community like this? That's a cruel design from the start. There's so many reasons why someone would nominate themselves that isn't shameful. There's also so many reasons why someone would that is shameful. You can't just judge people categorically like that.
We don't control our users thoughts. What Moderators intend to happen and what actually happens are two different things. Kennigit said "its OK to nominate yourself if you think you are deserving" and expected only a few TL vets or contributors to self-nominate. Instead, he got hundreds of newly registered users. People can do a lot of things within the rules set out by site Moderators, but simply abiding by rules does not mean those people somehow gain immunity from other users' criticism.
I agree with how neither you, nor other TL staff are responsible for users' thoughts. What you are responsible for is what rules you set in place, how you act, and what values you propogate. The classy thing would have been to respectfully dismiss submissions from people who are new/weak contributors and give keys out to who the staff thinks are the most deserving individual from the nominees. Rather, you decided to single out all the self-nominees and invite public critique of their behavior and expecting them to sort it out. You really thought this would work? How naive can you be?
lol wtf do you mean "did you think this will work"? It is working. You forum nubs are working together to weed each other out. We're getting entertained. That's all that matters, not your subjective definition of "class" . So stfu with your indignation about the rules, as none were changed or broken, and if you really find things to be so distasteful than don't participate.
You're getting entertained at the cost of individuals who did nothing wrong. (So am I for that matter, but I've chosen to defend em. :p) My subjective opinion of class is my own, it only effects my perspective of the members here and that's what I'm sharing. If you don't care, then don't reply to me. And if someone finds things to be distasteful, they should shut up and take it rather than speak out about it?
exactly. you're subjective opinion is your OWN: don't expect others to follow it. in other words, don't impose YOUR opinion of a definition onto an organization and claim it's a valid argument. And yeah, I don't care for your opinion. But like you said in your last sentence, since I find your opinion distasteful, especially within the context of the workings of this site, I will tell you to shut the fuck up so there can be a reduction of irrelevant posts in regards to this game. If you want to discuss validity of intent or whatever, go pm hotbid and stop complaining publicly. we're waiting for this event to unfold, not to hear some newbie wax indignant of his ideas of class and righteousness.
actually there's nothing to wait for. It was clear from the begining how this unfolds.
you can be like the big black dude on the prisoner boat in batman who threw the remote and beat the system!!! it could happen!!!
On April 18 2010 11:18 zTz wrote: The majority of you posting this thread have turned a nice gesture offerig the self nomnated, or even offering to give out 50 in the first place... To a bash against TL. If you are one o the bashers why would you expect to get anything from someone you are targeting? As for bashing anyone else trying to get a beta key it's kind of hippocritical isn't t? That you'd be hating on someone for wantin the same thing as you and tryig to get it the same way as you?
The TL staff could of said "lol stupid noobs" and given it to any body they wanted, but instead they had scavenger hunts, nominations, a tournament, and some high tech quizzes that blew my mind.
Thank them (as ilovestarcraft told me to be doing in general...), don't hate them. Jealousy is an ugly trait. ...see I even made a friend onthis thread, not to mention 2 long lost friends who saw my name and contacted me via PM; for that I thank you Hot_Bid.
Guys who are hating, please take more notice of this post.
people maybe you should sometimes think about asking "WHY?"
for example WHY is Hot_Bid doing this? Where is he going with it? What are his intensions?
the most likely explanation (at least to me) is that in the end, the keys will be given to some of the people who chose to WITHDRAW. because they are the ones who learned their lesson. i honestly doubt that any of those green dudes that chose to stay in it will get a key.
i might be wrong but this is the only thing that actually makes sense.
i really cant stand selfish people. very few can. and there is a very good reason why that is the case.
so THINK before posting damnit! edit: and dont be selfish. this is supposed to be the greatest sc community ever!
edit: iam not on the list. i thought that was obvious after reading the contend of this spoiler 8/ .
On April 18 2010 15:02 Gokain wrote: I have not denied that I have made no contribution to the community
...
in the post you quoted, I describe the people who have done less than I have.
Less than nothing?
Correct. Didn't even bother to do as little as I have, which is apparently "nothing".
You yourself said you made no contribution, ie doing nothing. How does one do less than what you've done? Just curious.
I made no contribution. But I have described my actions and provided a rationale to my motivations. That is apparently considered "nothing" by this community. Yet, people have done less than that much. There you go.
Ah. I see. You consider your selfish begging here in this thread to be contributing, somehow. I suppose it does add "content" to the site, so I guess you're right in some way...
To be honest, my motivations to staying in the contest have changed quite a bit over the course of the past 15 hours. At first, like many, I stayed in because I truly wanted a key to get better at the game, which would then allow me to build a foundation of knowledge I can communicate through these forums. After a while, all the flame and hate against the newcomers just motivated me to stay in and be resolute in conveying that I wanted a key for the right reasons. Finally, as I saw the people who remained in the contest drop to about 59, I realized that if the logical individuals that want to improve and become a part of this community left the contest, all that would be left were the individuals that simply did not care. And if they won and obtained keys, that would just be disappointing in all aspects of the game.
At this late hour, perhaps since my tiredness has further evolved my train of thought, I realize that a beta key is simply a key. I know people that have beta keys simply because they are affiliated with Blizzard but could not care about SC nor this community. Is that justified? I don't believe so, but the world is unjust many a time. But ultimately, it's just the distribution of a beta key that is at stake here. And if those unworthy people remain at the end of this contest and do receive beta keys, then oh well. We will just have to *sigh* and move on; I will simply hope otherwise.
I am selfish, but for my own betterment, which I believed I could use as the stepping stone to contributing to TL.net. And begging?...well, one does what it takes if he thinks the outcome is worth it.
I was initially critical of the method by which this contest was implemented. But I came to realize that obtained a greater reward. I was forced to become a member of the forums, and motivated to post several times in a thread that I did not need knowledge of SC to do so. So the barrier of entry was finally broken, and I am appreciative of that. I have also acquired knowledge of how to contribute further to forums without needing to be very good at the game. The hate that a newcomer receives for self-nomination is astounding, but understandable due to the value placed on such a high demand/low supply item. I only wish that the keys were generally more available to those who truly want to play.
With all that said, please remove my name from the list. Thanks.
On April 18 2010 13:34 Gokain wrote: There are plenty of people still on the list that have made perhaps a single comment indicating that s/he will stay in, and will make another reply at appointed time again to stay in. Those are the ones that will never again contribute to the site, and simply have no care for the ramifications of being hated by this community. Having the rest of us leave is simply a boon for them, because they will receive their keys and their intentions will have been resolved. If anything, the people that do care about justified distribution of keys should stay in to prevent this.
Um. You have 8 posts on this website. Your first post was to nominate yourself for a key in the original thread. The other 7 posts have been in this thread defending/justifying yourself.
As someone who has contributed absolutely nothing to this community, your judgemental tone of others doing exactly the same thing you are, is pretty hypocritical and amusing, to say the least.
I have already explained that this contest was the spark to finally create an acct on this site. I have not denied that I have made no contribution to the community; in fact, most of my posts describe my rationale to why I am still in this contest even though I have done nothing in the past.
Where you are wrong is that in the post you quoted, I describe the people who have done less than I have. I specifically said that there are people that have made one or two posts to confirm their stay in the contest, and will do so at the time stated by Hot_Bid. They provide no reason as to why they are deserving, and simply declare that they want one. Like I said, these are people who do not care about what the community thinks of them, and will not return afterwards. Like you said, I have defended/justified myself, at the very least contributing that much, unlike the people I "judge". It may be amusing to you, but it is certainly not hypocritical.
Erm, that's like someone who is morbidly obese pointing to someone who weighs even more and calling them "fatter". Then, trying to rationalize why they're "not that fat" because there are fatter people in the world. Then, trying to actually justify that raionale.
The basis of your entire argument is that you've made 'contributions' by defending yourself, as that somehow makes you... less worthless... then someone who doesn't? Despite the fact that you still have made ABSOLUTELY NO CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS WEBSITE whatsoever (no, defending yourself does not count, rofl)?
The news post says 50 keys for the community. The nominate others thread had 10 allocated, and R1CH gave out 3 (I think). That leaves 37, tops. Hot_Bid said it's a much higher number than people expect. I doubt it's all 37, since TL likes their contests. Because of this, I'm guessing 30 keys for this thread. So, who's gonna opt out? There are 59 people left as I write this.
On April 18 2010 16:42 tofucake wrote: The news post says 50 keys for the community. The nominate others thread had 10 allocated, and R1CH gave out 3 (I think). That leaves 37, tops. Hot_Bid said it's a much higher number than people expect. I doubt it's all 37, since TL likes their contests. Because of this, I'm guessing 30 keys for this thread. So, who's gonna opt out? There are 59 people left as I write this.
Of the 50: -Eight were given out to staff members and other contributors who make TL.net run but still don't have a key. Those keys have been given. -Ten have been given out to long-time veterans who don't have keys. Those keys have been given. -Twelve were handed out to what the administration consider (And they're most likely correct) worthy newbies. Those keys have been given. -Ten were set aside for nomination. Presumably the thread that preceeded this one. The resolution to that thread (And thus the status of these ten keys) is still unclear. -Five were given out on Twitter during today's EG vs TeamLiquid showmatch. Those have been given today and are presumably now in use. -Three have been given out by Rich. -One or two are set aside for the scavanger hunt.
Which leads me to believe that the keys given out for this thread are either taken from the ten set aside for the nomination thread, or there is a source outside the original 50.
On April 18 2010 16:52 FragKrag wrote: tofucake 5 for hotbid and R1CH competition 5 were given out in day[9] cast for TL vs EG 8 to staff 10 to veterans 12 to new posters
On April 18 2010 04:30 Hot_Bid wrote: Not sure, but they won't go to the people on the list.
You promised 10 to people from the nomi thread. This tangent is awesome but imo you can't take them away from it.
And we will fulfill that promise. 10 keys will go to the people from the nomination thread. I am just stating that its very unlikely the low post self-nominators are going to receive a key that way.
Also, nobody said that this thread is drawing from the same pool of keys as the nomination thread. It could be new keys from the sky, or keys that we bred in underground facilities. We never said we only had 50 keys or that we didn't receive more. Before people freak out, no, I am not saying we have more.
So I'm guessing that the 18 for staff and veterans weren't part of the "for the community" keys in the first place, and possibly the 12 for new posters were reserved from outside the 50 as well.
I also forgot about the scavenger hunt. So let me rework my numbers a bit: Nominate Others - 10 Twitter - 5 Scavenger Hunt + R1CH Contests - 5
That still leaves 30, so possibly they WILL use them all. I think the 12 for newbies was from outside the group because otherwise that would leave 18, and that's an ugly number. In actuality, I think they got more than 50, and allocated a bunch to people they wanted, and "for the community" means that technically anyone here can get one (or more) by means of some competition. So maybe even the Twitter keys weren't counted in the 50, leaving 35 still.
On April 18 2010 16:52 FragKrag wrote: tofucake 5 for hotbid and R1CH competition 5 were given out in day[9] cast for TL vs EG 8 to staff 10 to veterans 12 to new posters
On April 18 2010 04:30 Hot_Bid wrote: Not sure, but they won't go to the people on the list.
You promised 10 to people from the nomi thread. This tangent is awesome but imo you can't take them away from it.
And we will fulfill that promise. 10 keys will go to the people from the nomination thread. I am just stating that its very unlikely the low post self-nominators are going to receive a key that way.
Also, nobody said that this thread is drawing from the same pool of keys as the nomination thread. It could be new keys from the sky, or keys that we bred in underground facilities. We never said we only had 50 keys or that we didn't receive more. Before people freak out, no, I am not saying we have more.
So I'm guessing that the 18 for staff and veterans weren't part of the "for the community" keys in the first place, and possibly the 12 for new posters were reserved from outside the 50 as well.
I also forgot about the scavenger hunt. So let me rework my numbers a bit: Nominate Others - 10 Twitter - 5 Scavenger Hunt + R1CH Contests - 5
That still leaves 30, so possibly they WILL use them all. I think the 12 for newbies was from outside the group because otherwise that would leave 18, and that's an ugly number.
You misunderstand. Those keys are part of the 50. Of course vets and staff are part of the community! One could argue they're the most important part. And in any case, those keys have already been sent.
There are two possibilities. Either this thread will use some or all of the 10 unreleased nomination keys, or there is some other as-of-yet untapped stash of keys somewhere in TL's possession. (Or both, I guess).
I like how people have given up backing themselves up or trying to figure out the intention of the thread and instead have moved on to trying to find out how many keys there actually are. These next 21 hours should be interesting.
EPT
TL ftw.
