EPT[D] Arbiters in SC2 - Page 2
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Deimos0
Poland277 Posts
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
On April 05 2010 06:31 Liquid`NonY wrote: Strongly disagree here. If a Protoss had Recall ready to go at a time when the Terran could only stop it by luck, then the Protoss must have done something earlier in the game to gain an advantage. In an even game, when Protoss is going Recall, the Terran has enough Turrets, Goliaths, EMP and Scan to prevent Recalls. Alternatively, in an even game, the Terran can "let" Recalls happen and be in a position to minimize losses when they do happen. Many Protoss have lost games because they were trying to get Arbiters/Recall too quickly. Many Protoss have lost games because they expected to be able to make a strong offensive move as soon as Recall was ready to go but then found that there was no great place to do a Recall. Then the Protoss is in a situation where his Recall investment is useless and he would have been better of investing in econ, some other tech, upgrades, etc. The Terran comes out with an advantage in that situation and has better prospects of winning down the road. See, I would cite all of that as saying it was much harder to stop than to execute^^;. Building 20 Turrets + golitaths+ EMP+ scan is harder for me than building a single arbiter. You're right that it takes experience on the toss side of things on when and where to execute the recall, but toss only needs that experience when the terran is skilled enough to "let recalls happen and minimize losses", which in my eyes is alot harder to do than deciding on whether to recall or not. Really I'm just talking on my experience of literally plopping turrets down everywhere, mining up my base, EMP'ing any arbiter I scan, doing everything perfect until I miss one arbiter who then ignores all turret fire, happens to recall in the one place where there aren't mines, and takes out all my factories. That's what I call a lucky recall and it happened way more often than not. I'm obviously no Nony, but I remember a game of Firebathero versus some horrible toss on... tornado maybe? Where FBH has him completely contained only to have one recall in his base destroy everything. If you think that was a "skill" move then fine, but I'll still maintain that it would've been infinitely harder for FBH to defend against than it was to execute. FBH even knew he had recall... then again he's FBH... I hates recall^^; Also: if you find out you can't recall anywhere I agree your recall investment was useless, but terran has 20 turrets worth of minerals spent on.. turets too. I realize recall was needed in SC1, but I much MUCH prefer sc2 without the need for recall. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
I would also contend that after the neft, beta players just dismiss the mothership instead of doing their duty by trying to find strategies to make it useful. | ||
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OverShield
Canada41 Posts
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xnub
Canada610 Posts
These big super units are a very bad idea from blizzard | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
On April 05 2010 07:37 Feefee wrote: See, I would cite all of that as saying it was much harder to stop than to execute^^;. Building 20 Turrets + golitaths+ EMP+ scan is harder for me than building a single arbiter. You're right that it takes experience on the toss side of things on when and where to execute the recall, but toss only needs that experience when the terran is skilled enough to "let recalls happen and minimize losses", which in my eyes is alot harder to do than deciding on whether to recall or not. Really I'm just talking on my experience of literally plopping turrets down everywhere, mining up my base, EMP'ing any arbiter I scan, doing everything perfect until I miss one arbiter who then ignores all turret fire, happens to recall in the one place where there aren't mines, and takes out all my factories. That's what I call a lucky recall and it happened way more often than not. I'm obviously no Nony, but I remember a game of Firebathero versus some horrible toss on... tornado maybe? Where FBH has him completely contained only to have one recall in his base destroy everything. If you think that was a "skill" move then fine, but I'll still maintain that it would've been infinitely harder for FBH to defend against than it was to execute. FBH even knew he had recall... then again he's FBH... I hates recall^^; Also: if you find out you can't recall anywhere I agree your recall investment was useless, but terran has 20 turrets worth of minerals spent on.. turets too. I realize recall was needed in SC1, but I much MUCH prefer sc2 without the need for recall. My point is that luck isn't involved. Or at least it doesn't have to be. People always have the option of playing in a way that relies heavily on luck. But there's nothing special about Arbiters casting Recall, or the way Terran defends against it, that removes the players' ability to affect the chance of success. | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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goswser
United States3546 Posts
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
If recall were more readily accessible via arbitersin SC2, it would be overpowered. Think about what stopped recall in BW: -Well placed spider mines -Turrets -Siege tanks shooting into the clump from out of range -Emp You may say: well there are still 3 of the 4 things there, it's fine! However, lets see the viability of the options: -Turrets remain the most viable option, especially with the recent buff. They pack quite a punch and have that nice range upgrade. However, it's a big investment and you could always make some hallucinations to draw fire for your arb to get in, among other options. -How often do you see terrans build tanks en masse TvP? In the current metagame 90% of players choose to not mech. Perhaps with future changes to balance out TvP mech and balance out marauders we'll see more tanks. Until then, not a viable defense unless you're one of the few terrans like me who are so stubborn they refuse to give up their tanks. -Emp sounds like a great counter. After all, you always get ghosts TvP, and they're much cheaper than vessels, come much earlier, and have a cheaper EMP to cast. However, ghosts suffer from legs. They walk. Vessels could emp arbiters regardless of terrain, and since arbiters love to fly over cliffs and water and all sorts of impassible ground to get to their destination, ghosts aren't really going to do much good. You'd have to set up ghosts at every expo and have lightning fast reflexes to stop the recalls. It's like trying to lockdown arbiters with ghosts to prevent recalls in BW. I'm sure it can work on paper, but it's not going to work in practice. It's just too difficult. I think these points are the primary reason why the mothership needs to stay and the arbiter can't come back. | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
It's the same with lurkers, Lurkers were more than likely removed because of the new clumping would make it impossible for newer players to ever dodge lurker shots, it'd be the same problem with stasis, if everything was to clump together they would all end up in a massive stasis ball, which would be kind of annoying. Personally, I feel they could make the fleet beacon slightly easier to get to mean the mothership would get a bit more use, it should be one of those high tech things as to be frank, having an entire army running around cloaked when detection is alot more annoying to get hold of in this game, would be slightly imbalanced earliar on, and without mines Recalls would be so difficult to defend against. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
I would personally rather see them fix the mothership rather than adding another SC1 unit back into the game. This is a new game and with a new game you need change. Yes, the arbiter was a good unit in SC1 but does that really mean you need it in SC2? Ive heard this argument a lot. The "its a new game so it needs change" argument, and i agree, but there should't be change for the sake of change. It should be a change for the better. The Mothership just isn't a change for the better, and if they did make it smaller and faster it would just be an arbiter, and everytime i would see it i would think to myself, "thats a small baby sized mothership." A mothership SHOULD be big and slow, but they should just keep that for the singleplayer storyline for an epic moment when the mothership comes to rescue the protoss out of a tight situation or something like that. Bring the arbiter back for multiplayer, it was unique enough as it is. | ||
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nMn
United States144 Posts
What was wrong with lucky mine drags, a no-observer recall (recall into mines anyone?), scarab dud (im hesitant to call that luck) or PROXIES? These build suspense, those are what makes all those crazy korean girls go ahoooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, its what makes the game so exciting to watch. Now, I understand that some people believe that the game should be completely skill based and every action should be the beginning and end of the reaction but what kind of life-span can a game like that have outside of the niche players? | ||
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Feefee
Canada556 Posts
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On April 05 2010 09:17 nMn wrote: I don't really understand the reasoning behind removing every semi-luck base mechanic in the game. I understand the argument for pure luck, if I made a marine and 1/6 of the time, it turns into a super marine that does 3x the damage, okay thats bad but semi-luck based situations bring TONS to a spectator sport. Thats what SC2 is meant to be, a spectator sport. What was wrong with lucky mine drags, a no-observer recall (recall into mines anyone?), scarab dud (im hesitant to call that luck) or PROXIES? These build suspense, those are what makes all those crazy korean girls go ahoooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, its what makes the game so exciting to watch. Now, I understand that some people believe that the game should be completely skill based and every action should be the beginning and end of the reaction but what kind of life-span can a game like that have outside of the niche players? I don't think mine removal had anything to do with luck. I think it is more to do with the increased mobility of units, intent to lower turtling, attempt to increase push speed (less slow pushes) etc. Making then mobile but burrowable (banelings) gives the map control of burrowed bombs, but makes you have to use them wisely (consider food count, gas expense) and allows them to be repositioned when you move your contain/defense position. The mothership did not have recall in the first few builds, and it was possible to see warp-in via pylon (mines don't target drones) or via warp-prism into areas which would have been covered in mines if they still existed. And the new mothership is not a detector anyway. I am glad that the reaver scarab was removed. There are enough 'OH SHIT' moments on the non luck based abilities like Seeker Missile, Colossus beam and burrowed lings. | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
Seriously how is the MS not just a limited, slow, useless arbiter? Vortex is a very fancy stasis that works good on bad players. Bad players will keep dumping units into the hole. Good players will just avoid the area. Now normally stasis was a double whammy cause it froze units but it also took up a lot of space and forced armies to reposition. This Vortex is only a cool stasis. Let's compare MS/Arbiter Cloaks nearby units: Yes/Yes Has "Stasis": Really cool stasis/yes Recall: Big recall/Yes Does lots of damage: No/Yes Can keep up with your army: Yes/No So the only difference is the MS can be used as a harassment unit (if you have 12 hours for it to move 12 pixels,,,) and the arbiter cannot. Arbiter's make up for this by keeping up with your army. Now they can't cause the MS is slower than sin. Removing the arbiter completely killed the advantage in mobility the Protoss historically had. Now they have to go around the map un-cloaked or move somewhere and wait for the MS to catch up. I know there is a slim chance of the Arbiter coming back, but do I miss them o so much  | ||
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