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Introduction
As we are all well aware, one of the greatest Protoss units to have ever flied over the outerspace has been completely removed from the game in favor of… the mothership. The Arbiter was indeed one of the central pieces of the Protoss army, giving it cloaking ability and at the same time incredible mobility with Recall.
While the Mothership has a great ability (Vortex), it’s lack of speed and incredibly high cost/build time has made it useless in high-level play. Especially considering the fact that we need both a Starport and a Fleet Beacon in order to use it.
Which is why I believe Arbiters should be put back into the game as a Starport unit for Protoss.
Stargates in SC2
As we all know, Stargates in Starcraft 2 are rarely used, in favor of Gateway and Robotics Facility Tech. I believe that’s because none of the Stargate units Protoss has gives the race powerful middle-game support.
Let’s look at the Terran – they have to build Starports, the reason is two-fold:
1) They must build Medivacs to support their Bio-ball in the mid-game.
2) They must have Vikings in order to counter Colossi.
So not getting it brings a huge deficit in the mid-game, especially against the most common unit compositions.
Now let’s look at Zerg, and why they need to get their Spire:
1) Early-mid game harass with Mutalisks help them gain Map-control and expand more easily.
2) Corruptors destroy Colossi and Medivacs, and turn into Broodlords, absolute beasts against both Terran and Protoss.
So what could be the reasons for Protoss to get a Starport in the mid-game?
1) Phoenixes are costly, and are a poor Air-Air choice. For instance, while they’re strong vs Mutalisks, Zerg can easily kill them with Corruptors and gain Air Superiority again. They are only useful versus Banshees.
2) Void Rays are good when not scouted, extremely poor otherwise.
3) Carriers are only late-game, so we don’t need to bring them into discussion.
So in fact, there is basically no reason to get Stargates unless the player is trying to do something fancy, or the opponent is Terran and is trying to get Two-Starport Banshees.
Why Arbiters?
In Brood War, they were used against Terran to conceal armies, making Terran spend Scans (in this case it would make it even more pronounced the choice between MULE and Scan in Starcraft 2) and absolutely demolish clumped-up tanks. Furthermore, they were also used as a mid-game harass unit, using hallucinated arbiters in order to Recall into the enemy’s supply line.
However, In Starcraft 2 Tanks are not used vs Protoss and bio is usually the route Terran goes. Which means a lot of Marauders, Marines, Medivacs and Vikings, with a touch of Ravens.
It follows, then, that the Arbiter cannot be used as effectively as it was before. In order to circumvent this, if implemented as follows, it would be extremely useful:
1) In place of the Stasis Field, it should be given the Vortex and absolutely no attack. It should be a support unit and nothing more.
2) Recall and Cloaking Ability
If these changes are implemented, with the Arbiter, getting Starports would be actually beneficial to the Protoss, and at the same time it would increase the overall cost of the Protoss army, giving it certain balance. Moreover, as we’ve seen in Brood war, Arbiters can be balanced within the game.
In fact, it would provide the Protoss with more mobility than Warp Prisms, due to the fact that Recall can be used both offensively and defensively.
Furthermore, as been discussed in the Mothership Thread, and as Plexa puts it:
... the Mothership is a confused unit. Either make it a super unit which Protoss late game revolves around (or something like that) or don't make it a super unit and make the Mothership more accessible and usable so it isn't just a useless gimmick unit.
Bottom line is that Blizz need to make up their mind about what they want to do with it or just get rid of it.
And as Arbiter[frolix] responded:
I totally agree with this. It seems to me that Blizzard just have no idea what to do with the Mothership. Right now it looks like it could turn out to be a waste of a great concept, a unit a player only builds once he has the game pretty much won already.
And to think this cumbersome white elephant appears to be some kind of replacement for the most creative, elegant and interesting unit in Brood War...
Conclusion
We need to get rid of Motherships, and let Protoss have an Air Unit that makes getting Stargates worthwile. Let the Arbiter be it.
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Yet another useless thread asking for SC1 units to be added to SC2 when it's clearly not going to happen.
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On April 05 2010 04:41 nodule wrote:
Yet another useless thread asking for SC1 units to be added to SC2 when it's clearly not going to happen.
Are you actually going to be removing or adding any units before you launch?
Dustin Browder: I don’t know if we’ll add or remove. We could very easily add or remove. I certainly hope not to. I don’t foresee removing. I could see changing or adding significantly if it came to that. Our numbers now are positive and things seem to be going well, but as we’ve seen many times in the past, the community will often surprise us with tactics and strategies that we simply didn’t see coming. If we get to a point in a few weeks or a month where we say, ‘Oh my God, the Immortal’s a really huge problem. We need to change him dramatically or drop him,’ that is a change we’d be willing to make at this point.
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Well i think change is coming to the MS, so arbiters would be a nice option. The mothership needs to get out of the game. By making it smaller it would simply be an arbiter. So this is the most likely option.
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Sure, they are open to adding and removing units, as a last resort. But adding in sc1 units that they've purposefully removed? Not going to happen, regardless of that quote.
The only possible exception I could imagine is the lurker, since it was planned to be included.
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On April 05 2010 04:56 nodule wrote:
Sure, they are open to adding and removing units, as a last resort. But adding in sc1 units that they've purposefully removed? Not going to happen, regardless of that quote.
The only possible exception I could imagine is the lurker, since it was planned to be included.
well, the way i see it. the arbiter was only purposefully removed because of the introduction of the mothership. protoss doesn't need 2 aoe cloakers with basically the same abilities, so blizzard had to remove one of them. they chose the arb.
and in all honesty, the mothership is an arbiter. just bigger.
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just bigger, hardier, slower, costing more, pre-fitted with all arbiter abilities, modified stasis, and less fun to use =p
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I agree with the sentiment for sure, and almost anything looks superior to the mothership...
However, they really should try to introduce a new unit with reworked abilities. Cloaking field should stay for sure (high tech toss should have a cloaking advantage), although im not sure recall is that needed.
I always liked the idea of just chopping the legs off the colossus and making it a starport unit and making immortal at the robo. I have a feeling that this idea wont be too popular though.
AoE AtG really would feel like a protoss unit.
As cool a concept as the voidray is, its not proving to be too useful, and it sure as heck takes a lot of them to take out even BCs. I think it could use some tweaks.
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The mothership is the most powerful weapon in the protoss arsenal by lore and although it has been nerfed significantly, its still a fairly powerful unit when timed correctly in the late game. And frankly I don't see why the protoss needs the arbiter. They already have enough warp ins with warpgates, warp prisms and things like that. They don't need the arbiter. Adding it in would make it too much like sc1 which is what we MUST avoid at all cause.
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So far, I've been able to build one mothership. That was in a game against the very easy bots.
Online - never.
Something like a cheaper, faster mothership with only AA weapons and a cloaking field would already be better.
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mothership is same the arbiter. new giant arbiter.
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Except that it's alot easier to spot and moves alot slower. Personally I'd be furious if blizz puts the arbiter in the game. No offense to the "SC1 is holier than thou" crowd, but specifically recall was anything but a skill move. It took huge amounts of skill and luck to stop it, and luck has no place in an RTS.
At least with nydus worms you can place buildings around your base as spotters and leave a small force behind to kill anything that pops. In SC1 not even 20 turrets and a science vessel could prevent recall half the time. No thank you.
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why not just make the mothership faster instead of cutting a cool new unit and replacing it with a bw unit? i mean it's set up to be a lot like the arbiter anyway. some simple stat tweaks are all that would be needed to make it more useful.
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On April 05 2010 05:56 tancor wrote:
mothership is same the arbiter. new giant arbiter.
it is not even close to the same.
slow, giant, only 1.
the opposites of these properties are the exact reason arbiters were useful in sc1.
It took huge amounts of skill and luck to stop it, and luck has no place in an RTS.
luck obviously has a role in an RTS. its called attacking uphill ^_^
and it doesnt take any more skill to stop a recall than it does to execute it and not get rolled by a counter push. stopping a recall in sc1 is as easy as pressing "i" and "b, t"
now with turrets being incredibly powerful, stopping arbiters would be even less of a hassle.
EDIT: YEH what nony said >_<
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8748 Posts
On April 05 2010 06:04 Feefee wrote:
...specifically recall was anything but a skill move. It took huge amounts of skill and luck to stop it, and luck has no place in an RTS.
Strongly disagree here. If a Protoss had Recall ready to go at a time when the Terran could only stop it by luck, then the Protoss must have done something earlier in the game to gain an advantage. In an even game, when Protoss is going Recall, the Terran has enough Turrets, Goliaths, EMP and Scan to prevent Recalls. Alternatively, in an even game, the Terran can "let" Recalls happen and be in a position to minimize losses when they do happen.
Many Protoss have lost games because they were trying to get Arbiters/Recall too quickly. Many Protoss have lost games because they expected to be able to make a strong offensive move as soon as Recall was ready to go but then found that there was no great place to do a Recall. Then the Protoss is in a situation where his Recall investment is useless and he would have been better of investing in econ, some other tech, upgrades, etc. The Terran comes out with an advantage in that situation and has better prospects of winning down the road.
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I wouldn't expect the arbiter to make an appearance in Wings of Liberty. Currently, protoss has plenty of units to use; it's the zerg that lack units.
Anyway, Starcraft 2 offers different mechanics to protoss, like warp prism warp ins. That's a sort of arbiter recall. Tanks aren't as prominent anymore, so Arbiter's statis isn't needed. Not to mention, if the arbiter was returned to the game, then you might have a bitter surprised when you realized all of its abilities were as reduced as the High templar's psy-storm.
The expansion will bring new units and option.
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I don't want the arbiter or the mothership I would much rather have a new unit entirely that doesn't suck ted nugent's balls. Tbh I think they could get away with a phoenix buff either making it cheaper or buffing the AA some how.
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I think they will buff up the MS a little bit more but also find a way to give it stronger weaknesses. Then and only then, will the arbiter come back! However this is only because it seems they are deadset on keeping the MS in the game.
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On April 05 2010 05:23 Knee_of_Justice wrote:
I agree with the sentiment for sure, and almost anything looks superior to the mothership...
However, they really should try to introduce a new unit with reworked abilities. Cloaking field should stay for sure (high tech toss should have a cloaking advantage), although im not sure recall is that needed.
I always liked the idea of just chopping the legs off the colossus and making it a starport unit and making immortal at the robo. I have a feeling that this idea wont be too popular though.
AoE AtG really would feel like a protoss unit.
As cool a concept as the voidray is, its not proving to be too useful, and it sure as heck takes a lot of them to take out even BCs. I think it could use some tweaks.
I agree. I've found the Warp Ray to be a pretty underwhelming unit unless its not expected. How about moving the Colossus to the Starport, and giving it a Wary Ray beam (requiringnresearch) in addition to its Thermal Lance? It could then fly around, but need to deploy into the Colossus form to attack (at which point it could use the default Colossus attack or the Warp Ray attack (if researched and selected). Retracting its legs to enable it to fly could take 3 seconds or so, mitigating much of the advantage attached to flight.
This would free up a unit slot for Protoss, increase strategic choices attached to tech path, and obviate some of the disadvantages of the Mothership with regards to fixed tech cost (because the Starport has already been built) .
I don't see the removal of the Warp Ray as much of a disadvantage if the interesting aspects of its design are transferred to the Colossus. I also don't think this encroaches on Viking territory because the Colossus is already used to some effect in combination with a Warp Prism.
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Poland277 Posts
You also forget one thing - there's NO Conclave, so there's no Arbiters with absolutely no Judicators as pilots. So Arbiters won't return because of story behind them. But any other unit having same abilities - who knows or just let Blizzard make Mothership a unit, that player would want to use.
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MS makes the toss ball much less mobile
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On April 05 2010 06:31 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 06:04 Feefee wrote:
...specifically recall was anything but a skill move. It took huge amounts of skill and luck to stop it, and luck has no place in an RTS. Strongly disagree here. If a Protoss had Recall ready to go at a time when the Terran could only stop it by luck, then the Protoss must have done something earlier in the game to gain an advantage. In an even game, when Protoss is going Recall, the Terran has enough Turrets, Goliaths, EMP and Scan to prevent Recalls. Alternatively, in an even game, the Terran can "let" Recalls happen and be in a position to minimize losses when they do happen. Many Protoss have lost games because they were trying to get Arbiters/Recall too quickly. Many Protoss have lost games because they expected to be able to make a strong offensive move as soon as Recall was ready to go but then found that there was no great place to do a Recall. Then the Protoss is in a situation where his Recall investment is useless and he would have been better of investing in econ, some other tech, upgrades, etc. The Terran comes out with an advantage in that situation and has better prospects of winning down the road.
See, I would cite all of that as saying it was much harder to stop than to execute^^;. Building 20 Turrets + golitaths+ EMP+ scan is harder for me than building a single arbiter. You're right that it takes experience on the toss side of things on when and where to execute the recall, but toss only needs that experience when the terran is skilled enough to "let recalls happen and minimize losses", which in my eyes is alot harder to do than deciding on whether to recall or not.
Really I'm just talking on my experience of literally plopping turrets down everywhere, mining up my base, EMP'ing any arbiter I scan, doing everything perfect until I miss one arbiter who then ignores all turret fire, happens to recall in the one place where there aren't mines, and takes out all my factories. That's what I call a lucky recall and it happened way more often than not. I'm obviously no Nony, but I remember a game of Firebathero versus some horrible toss on... tornado maybe? Where FBH has him completely contained only to have one recall in his base destroy everything. If you think that was a "skill" move then fine, but I'll still maintain that it would've been infinitely harder for FBH to defend against than it was to execute. FBH even knew he had recall... then again he's FBH...
I hates recall^^;
Also: if you find out you can't recall anywhere I agree your recall investment was useless, but terran has 20 turrets worth of minerals spent on.. turets too. I realize recall was needed in SC1, but I much MUCH prefer sc2 without the need for recall.
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As an arbiter lover and a fat ass fail hero mothership hater, I approve of this message. However giving vortex to a stargate only unit would probably be imba, stasis would be just fine with it's original attack.
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I wouldn't mind seeing Arbiters return, but removing the void ray is ridiculous. It's attack concept is more suited to an air unit. Colossus would be almost worthless if they had the void ray style attack but still had to walk on ground (although over cliffs).
I would also contend that after the neft, beta players just dismiss the mothership instead of doing their duty by trying to find strategies to make it useful.
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I agree that the Arbiter should return, and that the MS needs to be removed. However, with the ability to warp in units Recall/Warp Prism would be a bit redundant. Regardless, something has to be done about Protoss air.
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Want to do the same thing with the thor kill it off but bring back the Cobra not goliath keep it knew atleast : P
These big super units are a very bad idea from blizzard
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8748 Posts
On April 05 2010 07:37 Feefee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 06:31 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 05 2010 06:04 Feefee wrote:
...specifically recall was anything but a skill move. It took huge amounts of skill and luck to stop it, and luck has no place in an RTS. Strongly disagree here. If a Protoss had Recall ready to go at a time when the Terran could only stop it by luck, then the Protoss must have done something earlier in the game to gain an advantage. In an even game, when Protoss is going Recall, the Terran has enough Turrets, Goliaths, EMP and Scan to prevent Recalls. Alternatively, in an even game, the Terran can "let" Recalls happen and be in a position to minimize losses when they do happen. Many Protoss have lost games because they were trying to get Arbiters/Recall too quickly. Many Protoss have lost games because they expected to be able to make a strong offensive move as soon as Recall was ready to go but then found that there was no great place to do a Recall. Then the Protoss is in a situation where his Recall investment is useless and he would have been better of investing in econ, some other tech, upgrades, etc. The Terran comes out with an advantage in that situation and has better prospects of winning down the road. See, I would cite all of that as saying it was much harder to stop than to execute^^;. Building 20 Turrets + golitaths+ EMP+ scan is harder for me than building a single arbiter. You're right that it takes experience on the toss side of things on when and where to execute the recall, but toss only needs that experience when the terran is skilled enough to "let recalls happen and minimize losses", which in my eyes is alot harder to do than deciding on whether to recall or not. Really I'm just talking on my experience of literally plopping turrets down everywhere, mining up my base, EMP'ing any arbiter I scan, doing everything perfect until I miss one arbiter who then ignores all turret fire, happens to recall in the one place where there aren't mines, and takes out all my factories. That's what I call a lucky recall and it happened way more often than not. I'm obviously no Nony, but I remember a game of Firebathero versus some horrible toss on... tornado maybe? Where FBH has him completely contained only to have one recall in his base destroy everything. If you think that was a "skill" move then fine, but I'll still maintain that it would've been infinitely harder for FBH to defend against than it was to execute. FBH even knew he had recall... then again he's FBH... I hates recall^^; Also: if you find out you can't recall anywhere I agree your recall investment was useless, but terran has 20 turrets worth of minerals spent on.. turets too. I realize recall was needed in SC1, but I much MUCH prefer sc2 without the need for recall.
My point is that luck isn't involved. Or at least it doesn't have to be. People always have the option of playing in a way that relies heavily on luck. But there's nothing special about Arbiters casting Recall, or the way Terran defends against it, that removes the players' ability to affect the chance of success.
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I dont really care what they bring back as long as they remove the mothership and adds a unit that is not slower then a reaver and bigger then a nexus. I also want to add that Thor's seemed like a unit that could be used in a high level game, but let me tell you.. NO!. Thor is just another bad idea like xnub said above.
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Yes it is harder to defend against recall than to use it, but that's just because of how the gameplay works out, and has nothing to do with balance. Likewise, it is harder to micro marines and medics to kill lurkers than for lurkers to kill marines and medics, but that doesn't mean lurkers are imalanced. I think the reasons the mothership isn't used is because it's large, slow to build, requires the right tech, and can be countered easily by viking. It just isn't an interesting unit.
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If you put Arbiters back in the game they will become an almost essential unit is almost all builds. The beauty of the Motherships is that it can be very powerful when used correctly, but with it's tech position, cost and unique status it does not find it's way into every build or game. This is something I really like about the Mothership, great power, Witt reasonable weaknesses/counters but completly optional to help with any game. I don't think Arbiters could achieve this quite as well.
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When I was learning terran I felt like recall was the most bogus, overpowered, and broken ability. As I learned more and watched a lot of pro games I started to realize how recall can totally backfire. it's a risky move, but I do agree that it puts a lot of pressure on a terran to stop it.
If recall were more readily accessible via arbitersin SC2, it would be overpowered. Think about what stopped recall in BW:
-Well placed spider mines
-Turrets
-Siege tanks shooting into the clump from out of range
-Emp
You may say: well there are still 3 of the 4 things there, it's fine! However, lets see the viability of the options:
-Turrets remain the most viable option, especially with the recent buff. They pack quite a punch and have that nice range upgrade. However, it's a big investment and you could always make some hallucinations to draw fire for your arb to get in, among other options.
-How often do you see terrans build tanks en masse TvP? In the current metagame 90% of players choose to not mech. Perhaps with future changes to balance out TvP mech and balance out marauders we'll see more tanks. Until then, not a viable defense unless you're one of the few terrans like me who are so stubborn they refuse to give up their tanks.
-Emp sounds like a great counter. After all, you always get ghosts TvP, and they're much cheaper than vessels, come much earlier, and have a cheaper EMP to cast. However, ghosts suffer from legs. They walk. Vessels could emp arbiters regardless of terrain, and since arbiters love to fly over cliffs and water and all sorts of impassible ground to get to their destination, ghosts aren't really going to do much good. You'd have to set up ghosts at every expo and have lightning fast reflexes to stop the recalls. It's like trying to lockdown arbiters with ghosts to prevent recalls in BW. I'm sure it can work on paper, but it's not going to work in practice. It's just too difficult.
I think these points are the primary reason why the mothership needs to stay and the arbiter can't come back.
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Don't forget sensor towers. If they really insisted on putting recall back in I think sensor towers would make up for the lack of spider mines since ghosts get a hopefully fast enough warning. That and the fact that terrans are slightly more mobile without mech. They already have warp prisms though, really still don't think arbiters would be a good addition to this game.
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No arbiters without lurkers! =P
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I would personally rather see them fix the mothership rather than adding another SC1 unit back into the game. This is a new game and with a new game you need change. Yes, the arbiter was a good unit in SC1 but does that really mean you need it in SC2?
It's the same with lurkers, Lurkers were more than likely removed because of the new clumping would make it impossible for newer players to ever dodge lurker shots, it'd be the same problem with stasis, if everything was to clump together they would all end up in a massive stasis ball, which would be kind of annoying.
Personally, I feel they could make the fleet beacon slightly easier to get to mean the mothership would get a bit more use, it should be one of those high tech things as to be frank, having an entire army running around cloaked when detection is alot more annoying to get hold of in this game, would be slightly imbalanced earliar on, and without mines Recalls would be so difficult to defend against.
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I would personally rather see them fix the mothership rather than adding another SC1 unit back into the game. This is a new game and with a new game you need change. Yes, the arbiter was a good unit in SC1 but does that really mean you need it in SC2?
Ive heard this argument a lot. The "its a new game so it needs change" argument, and i agree, but there should't be change for the sake of change. It should be a change for the better. The Mothership just isn't a change for the better, and if they did make it smaller and faster it would just be an arbiter, and everytime i would see it i would think to myself, "thats a small baby sized mothership." A mothership SHOULD be big and slow, but they should just keep that for the singleplayer storyline for an epic moment when the mothership comes to rescue the protoss out of a tight situation or something like that. Bring the arbiter back for multiplayer, it was unique enough as it is.
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I don't really understand the reasoning behind removing every semi-luck base mechanic in the game. I understand the argument for pure luck, if I made a marine and 1/6 of the time, it turns into a super marine that does 3x the damage, okay thats bad but semi-luck based situations bring TONS to a spectator sport. Thats what SC2 is meant to be, a spectator sport.
What was wrong with lucky mine drags, a no-observer recall (recall into mines anyone?), scarab dud (im hesitant to call that luck) or PROXIES? These build suspense, those are what makes all those crazy korean girls go ahoooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, its what makes the game so exciting to watch.
Now, I understand that some people believe that the game should be completely skill based and every action should be the beginning and end of the reaction but what kind of life-span can a game like that have outside of the niche players?
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Yeah I agree that that kind of stuff is responsible for alot of "oooooooh" moments and made for some great sc1 spectating. I just don't want it to happen when I'm on the wrong end of that stick. =P
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On April 05 2010 09:17 nMn wrote:
I don't really understand the reasoning behind removing every semi-luck base mechanic in the game. I understand the argument for pure luck, if I made a marine and 1/6 of the time, it turns into a super marine that does 3x the damage, okay thats bad but semi-luck based situations bring TONS to a spectator sport. Thats what SC2 is meant to be, a spectator sport.
What was wrong with lucky mine drags, a no-observer recall (recall into mines anyone?), scarab dud (im hesitant to call that luck) or PROXIES? These build suspense, those are what makes all those crazy korean girls go ahoooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, its what makes the game so exciting to watch.
Now, I understand that some people believe that the game should be completely skill based and every action should be the beginning and end of the reaction but what kind of life-span can a game like that have outside of the niche players?
I don't think mine removal had anything to do with luck. I think it is more to do with the increased mobility of units, intent to lower turtling, attempt to increase push speed (less slow pushes) etc. Making then mobile but burrowable (banelings) gives the map control of burrowed bombs, but makes you have to use them wisely (consider food count, gas expense) and allows them to be repositioned when you move your contain/defense position.
The mothership did not have recall in the first few builds, and it was possible to see warp-in via pylon (mines don't target drones) or via warp-prism into areas which would have been covered in mines if they still existed. And the new mothership is not a detector anyway.
I am glad that the reaver scarab was removed. There are enough 'OH SHIT' moments on the non luck based abilities like Seeker Missile, Colossus beam and burrowed lings.
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I personally have been for this since I first realized how slow the MS moves...
Seriously how is the MS not just a limited, slow, useless arbiter?
Vortex is a very fancy stasis that works good on bad players. Bad players will keep dumping units into the hole. Good players will just avoid the area. Now normally stasis was a double whammy cause it froze units but it also took up a lot of space and forced armies to reposition. This Vortex is only a cool stasis.
Let's compare
MS/Arbiter
Cloaks nearby units: Yes/Yes
Has "Stasis": Really cool stasis/yes
Recall: Big recall/Yes
Does lots of damage: No/Yes
Can keep up with your army: Yes/No
So the only difference is the MS can be used as a harassment unit (if you have 12 hours for it to move 12 pixels,,,) and the arbiter cannot.
Arbiter's make up for this by keeping up with your army. Now they can't cause the MS is slower than sin.
Removing the arbiter completely killed the advantage in mobility the Protoss historically had. Now they have to go around the map un-cloaked or move somewhere and wait for the MS to catch up.
I know there is a slim chance of the Arbiter coming back, but do I miss them o so much 
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I'm just enjoying the fact that one of the units that was on the top 3 list of most useless units in SC for much of SC's early years now has such a campaign to return
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On April 05 2010 10:16 Karas wrote:I'm just enjoying the fact that one of the units that was on the top 3 list of most useless units in SC for much of SC's early years now has such a campaign to return
Wait? Arbiters? Useless...?
What on earth (or Auir) are you talking about?
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On April 05 2010 10:16 Karas wrote:I'm just enjoying the fact that one of the units that was on the top 3 list of most useless units in SC for much of SC's early years now has such a campaign to return
o.o
when was the arbiter considered useless lol?
top 3: queen, scout, ghost. easy.
arbiter isnt even close to the top of that list.
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On April 05 2010 10:16 Karas wrote:I'm just enjoying the fact that one of the units that was on the top 3 list of most useless units in SC for much of SC's early years now has such a campaign to return
It was never considered a useless unit, and was a staple unit in foreigner protoss play since the dawn of competitive SC
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On April 05 2010 10:06 iCCup.Diamond wrote:
Has "Stasis": Yes/Really cool stasis.
you honestly think stasis looked cooler than vortex? i think vortex is badass and totally intimidating, and seems kinda nervewracking cos both players have to tiptoe around it while it's still running.
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On April 05 2010 10:06 iCCup.Diamond wrote:I personally have been for this since I first realized how slow the MS moves... Seriously how is the MS not just a limited, slow, useless arbiter? Vortex is a very fancy stasis that works good on bad players. Bad players will keep dumping units into the hole. Good players will just avoid the area. Now normally stasis was a double whammy cause it froze units but it also took up a lot of space and forced armies to reposition. This Vortex is only a cool stasis. Let's compare MS/Arbiter Cloaks nearby units: Yes/Yes Has "Stasis": Yes/Really cool stasis. Recall: Yes/Big reacall Does lots of damage: Yes/No Can keep up with your army: No/Yes So the only difference is the MS can be used as a harassment unit (if you have 12 hours for it to move 12 pixels,,,) and the arbiter cannot. Arbiter's make up for this by keeping up with your army. Now they can't cause the MS is slower than sin. Removing the arbiter completely killed the advantage in mobility the Protoss historically had. Now they have to go around the map un-cloaked or move somewhere and wait for the MS to catch up. I know there is a slim chance of the Arbiter coming back, but do I miss them o so much
Mothership has some kickass dps!
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On April 05 2010 10:29 Doc Daneeka wrote:
you honestly think stasis looked cooler than vortex? i think vortex is badass and totally intimidating, and seems kinda nervewracking cos both players have to tiptoe around it while it's still running.
Whoops. put the Yes/No's backwards. I meant the mothership has a really cool looking stasis.
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I feel the more pressing issue brought up here is that phoenixes and void rays need to be tweaked so that stargate tech is more viable.
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void rays have their uses almost on par with banshees. At least as long as terran and zerg keep going marauder/roach. Phoenixes I haven't used enough to call them either way
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I don't know about you guys but... Stargate can put out a lot of pressure vs Zerg. Killing overlords and queens slows down zerg players a lot. Gravity Beam is a fantastic ability, and void rays are great for harassing, even if scouted. Proxy stargate and flank with 1-2 voidrays while you keep them occupied elsewhere is a very handy strat that is often overlooked.
While getting a stargate is not usually done as a result of comon builds, it's the little things like overlord hunting, killing queens, snipping medivacs that makes the difference. Lately a lot of Terrans go Marauder/medivac, and without those medivacs the Marauder ball looks a lot less threatening.
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I dunno, the main reason why the mothership blows is they keep trying to make it the arbiter instead of a the questionable super hero unit... -_-'.
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the reason it blows is because they listened to everyone about not wanting a superhero unit =P
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On April 05 2010 10:53 Vlare wrote:
I don't know about you guys but... Stargate can put out a lot of pressure vs Zerg.
Don't get me wrong I think the Pheonix is badass. I abuse the shit out of them on LT (Forge FE into Pheonix harass FTW )!
The problem is the Void Rays are sniper units and Pheonix's don't really belong chilling with the "ball" unless the "ball" is carriers. Unless you have 4-5+ Pheonix they cannot do anything really to help your army besides delaying unit attacks.
But the pressing issue is the Toss ground army is amazingly fragile in the late game. Zealots no longer run the speed of light, and Stalkers are in no way as effective as Dragoons. Storm doesn't cover an area the size of Montana anymore, and Archons aren't invincible balls of death.
Sure we got Colsi and Immortals too, but neither is useful as a reaver + shuttle, and the Immortals are slow.
Thus the "Protoss ball" is essentially brought back to being a defensive force instead of an offensive one. You either have to add a MS and move 2 MPH, or let the MS do it's own thing and pray to god the opponent does not have Fungal Growth or EMP. Either will cripple any offense the Toss can muster, and both are easily attainable.
With an Arbiter, EMP still messes shit up but you will have a small timing window where your units can be invisible thus allowing a attack to possibly still move forward. Fungal becomes less deadly as the Zerg has to do some guesswork on the casting location or sac an overseer.
Idk maybe I'm just a shitty player, but there is no single unit i miss more than the Arbiter. It made the late game (especially PvT) so exciting.
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On April 05 2010 11:05 Feefee wrote:
the reason it blows is because they listened to everyone about not wanting a superhero unit =P
And if they did make it a hero unit the Protoss as a race would blow. I know which I'd prefer.
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i think blizzard's main concern is balance issues with any kind of AOE since the new engine basically makes armies move in a huge concentrated ball... hence why no lurker.
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Change the game to add more depth for P-air: proactive, productive beta-testers
Don't!: "I hated SC1 and despise getting owned by depth because I can't think for myself" persons
Avoid saying "fuck no," and instead argue, "I believe the game is balanced 'as-is.'"
No one is saying bring back the arbiter as it was. That would not be fair.
The only problem is the approach the 2nd team has taken: Pull the arbiter out of the StarCraft games like an extremely late-term abortion and throw it into an incinerator. All on a Monday morning...
It was fundamentally cut out of the second game (substituted). I see the only obvious thing to do is to definitely change the thing that is the problem. Since the mothership is broken, fix it or you must add another unit to make air (or the mothership) more viable. The focus was the mothership, because they made everything else nearly impossible to change (idiots). Change it.
Maybe add a small unit to compliment the mothership, in that it at least acts as a stepping stone.
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the mothership is rarely used just like most starport units.
but the arbiter should not be reintroduced.
recall will be pretty much useless since armies are far more mobile in sc2 than they were in sc1. and going up a choke is not a problem anymore like it used to be in sc1.
statis on the oher hand might be too powerful. with all those clumped armies one statis will shut down half the opponents army...
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Wouldn't increasing the mothership movespeed be easier?
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On April 05 2010 10:22 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 10:16 Karas wrote:I'm just enjoying the fact that one of the units that was on the top 3 list of most useless units in SC for much of SC's early years now has such a campaign to return It was never considered a useless unit, and was a staple unit in foreigner protoss play since the dawn of competitive SC
it was really no where near as good compared to carriers though(in earlier days) and iirc carriers was the only way to go..wasnt until pusan i think started using arbiters that they really caught on
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1298/arbiterrender.jpg)
