EPTSC2 Ladder Analysis: What YOU Need to Know - Page 6
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Excalibur_Z
United States12246 Posts
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Aether
Canada123 Posts
1500-1799: Average 1800-1999: Fairly skilled 2000-2199: Very skilled 2200-3000: Extremely skilled I'm curious what the point range is with the new point system, mainly in diamond. It seems like once you get to about 300+ in any given division you get moved up and your points get slashed to around half of what they were. Then in diamond there's no cap. The highest I've seen so far in diamond is around 560, although I haven't exactly been looking much. Or is this chart accurate for the current system and people simply need more time to build their ratings? -edit- I just looked a bit and found a guy with 900+ rating. | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
Player A and player B have the same MMA (1600 & 1600) Player A plays in some league and after 100 games has a rating around 400 (assuming 50% win + bonus points) Player B then joins and has a 0 rating after placement matches. Player A and Player B play, and A wins 50% of the time and B wins 50%. Because of bonus points they will both rise at roughly the same rate and B cannot catch up to A unless he begins to play more games or improves his play. The whole thing is to hide your actual rating so that you get the illusion of improving. (last week i had 100 points and now i have 150!!!) because otherwise people get discouraged (woot last week i had a 1600 rating and this week i'm.....1601....yay...) The reason is because sc2 is not a competitive sport. In competitive sports people want to know how they are doing because then they can truly know their own strength. In non-competitive sports, people like knowing how they are doing in comparison to the people in close proximity to them. What i think blizzard might do, and hopefully does do eventually, is offer two types of leagues: competitive and casual. Casual will stick with the current system and competitive will be more of a true ELO system and only available to say plat and diamond casual leaguers. Actually, now I'm going to say that i think that it is the best possible solution. 1. Casual league with current setup. 2. optional competitive league for players in the top 20% with a true ELO rating. Maybe something cool would be like a weekly tournament to earn a spot in the competitive leauge where the top 4 earn the right to be in the competitive league. From there, season to season, players are placed in leagues A-E depending on the final ELO from the previous season, but the league always shows their win/loss along with their ELO. This system maybe could have weekly matches within your league with a final tournament at the end of the season (keep seasons short somewhere between 3-6 months). If blizzard doesn't do this, then I think i'll spend the next few sc2-less weeks making this into a website. | ||
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Bob300
United States505 Posts
On April 03 2010 02:53 MockHamill wrote: Very good explanation. I think the end of season tournaments will go like this. 1. When the end of season is near everyone will be locked for a few weeks to their current division and league. 2. The top 8 in each division will do a tournament to determine the division winner. 3. The division winners will then do a tournament to determine the league winner. It resembles sports and since they wish to make SC2 an e-sport it makes the most sense. I really think the Division system combined with Division and League tournaments is a much better solution then just having an overall gigantic ladder. This way everyone has a chance to compete against players on their own level instead of just having competitions for the top 0.1 percent of the player base. I completely agree and would love this system. | ||
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dcttr66
United States555 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12246 Posts
On June 01 2010 05:18 Aether wrote: 0-1499: Newb 1500-1799: Average 1800-1999: Fairly skilled 2000-2199: Very skilled 2200-3000: Extremely skilled I'm curious what the point range is with the new point system, mainly in diamond. It seems like once you get to about 300+ in any given division you get moved up and your points get slashed to around half of what they were. Then in diamond there's no cap. The highest I've seen so far in diamond is around 560, although I haven't exactly been looking much. Or is this chart accurate for the current system and people simply need more time to build their ratings? -edit- I just looked a bit and found a guy with 900+ rating. Those numbers are imported from what is generally accepted as true for WoW Arena and have no direct correlation to SC2 other than estimates regarding MMR milestones. | ||
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Aether
Canada123 Posts
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fosh.ger
Germany14 Posts
Like a few other people I would appreciate to have a number representing my actual strength to compare to others as well as to measure my improvements. Visible MMR's could be sufficient. Any chance that we can make Blizz think about that? | ||
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Perfect Balance
Norway131 Posts
2. optional competitive league for players in the top 20% with a true ELO rating. Maybe something cool would be like a weekly tournament to earn a spot in the competitive leauge where the top 4 earn the right to be in the competitive league. From there, season to season, players are placed in leagues A-E depending on the final ELO from the previous season, but the league always shows their win/loss along with their ELO. This system maybe could have weekly matches within your league with a final tournament at the end of the season (keep seasons short somewhere between 3-6 months). You're KIDDING, right? After all Blizzard have done to tailor this game to casual players, do you really believe they will even consider an option like that for a second? I see a lot of people here are still living in the past. The days of making new, intricate systems that benefit the players are over. Now, every single feature is about squeezing as much money out of you as humanly tolerable. Wake up. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12246 Posts
On June 02 2010 18:04 Aether wrote: yeah, that's why I'm asking what a similar chart for the diamond league in SC2 would look like. The point of that list was not to create arbitrary and ultimately useless categories, but to provide a reference point. As I covered in the rest of the post, the goal is to explain the ladder system, not pointlessly rank people. The only reason the WoW Arena breakpoints are there is because those breakpoints are weighted -- be it by player choice (because certain rewards become available at 1800, 2000, 2200 so players tend to stop playing after reaching those milestones) or the system itself -- and because the MMR is visible and has a hard cap of 3000. I roughly equated the different league breakpoints to those reward breakpoints in Arena because it makes it easier to understand when you consider that the ladder is overarching and that leagues themselves are only the by-product of your relative standing in the overall player population. It wouldn't make any sense to create a ranking chart for Diamond league because the ratings will constantly increase over time due to the bonus pool, whereas your standing in the top 8% of all players may never change. | ||
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Aether
Canada123 Posts
If you can't answer this question just say you can't answer it, don't start answering questions I didn't ask or saying it's pointless or impossible. It's not. Would it be the be all end all guide to measuring starcraft skill? Obviously not. It would still be interesting to see. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12246 Posts
On June 04 2010 03:16 Aether wrote: The question was what a similar reference would look like for the current diamond league. I understand the fact that bonus points will *slightly* skew your apparent rating from your matchmaking rating. It doesn't mean that someone couldn't easily make a similar reference for the current league by looking through the divisions. The bonus points won't skew things so badly that the rankings become completely meaningless. If you can't answer this question just say you can't answer it, don't start answering questions I didn't ask or saying it's pointless or impossible. It's not. Would it be the be all end all guide to measuring starcraft skill? Obviously not. It would still be interesting to see. I still don't think you're understanding the irrelevance of such a chart. If my guess is correct and Diamond represents the top 10% of players, then that means you would need to break into the top 10% of Player MMR to join that league. The number of points for each player are also irrelevant. Everything is relative in this system, that's the beauty behind it. On release day you may have someone bragging on forums that they have 500 points. A week from release day someone else may brag that he has 1000. A month from that someone may claim to have 5000. Day after day, players will be posting about "800++ replays" that they want to see, or "anyone have replays of 1200+++ players?" or "check out this strat from this 1600++++ P player". The best players are going to be the best players regardless of their score because it's their ranking relative to the other players that matters. I hope you don't take it as a cop-out but it really is pointless. It would be no different than players talking about "zomg nada just hit B- in ICCup" when everyone else is C... eventually he'll hit A, but relatively speaking, he's already the top player. In ICCup it's very difficult to move up which is why A is so prestigious, but A is only good because there are so many Bs, and B is only good because there are so many Cs, which is only good because there are so many Ds. With SC2's Bonus Pool, months down the line all the Ds will become Cs, so that skews any kind of a guide I could create. Updated the original post with the new Diamond league rules. | ||
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Surrealz
United States449 Posts
Whats the problem with this? Well Player 2 could be NonY. The problem is that pitting two players without a loss always ends up with no information other than the fact that player 2 is better than player 1. Its quite obvious I am not good as say, NonY, but I still deserve to be in diamond league. This is the biggest problem with their logic. Anyone who has taken logic can understand this, and such a low number of placement matches isn't helping at all. I am aware that placement matches are an estimate, but it seems to be ALOT harder to go up a league the old fashioned way by winning 5-10 games IN A ROW (I've heard some horror stories about this). It is both stupid and discouraging to get put in the wrong league. | ||
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Excalibur_Z
United States12246 Posts
On June 07 2010 13:38 Surrealz wrote: I have a couple gripes with the algorithm they use for the placement matches, as it is a different system (sort of). Specifically, lets say Player 1 (you) play 4 placement matches and go 4-0. Great. No information has been given yet other than to raise your MMR for your last placement match. Now in your fifth and final placement match you face off against Player 2, who is ALSO 4-0 in his placement matches. You then lose to Player 2 and get demoted to either Gold or Platinum league with you going 4-1 and player 2 going 5-0. Whats the problem with this? Well Player 2 could be NonY. The problem is that pitting two players without a loss always ends up with no information other than the fact that player 2 is better than player 1. Its quite obvious I am not good as say, NonY, but I still deserve to be in diamond league. This is the biggest problem with their logic. Anyone who has taken logic can understand this, and such a low number of placement matches isn't helping at all. I am aware that placement matches are an estimate, but it seems to be ALOT harder to go up a league the old fashioned way by winning 5-10 games IN A ROW (I've heard some horror stories about this). It is both stupid and discouraging to get put in the wrong league. Of course you couldn't get into Diamond immediately anymore anyway, so we'll discount that. As far as your hypothetical scenario, the system counterbalances that in two ways: 1) You may not drop into Gold at all. If your opponent's MMR was high enough and exceeded the Platinum threshold by enough points, there's a good chance that your MMR won't be as adversely affected. The most recent patch did tweak the algorithm somewhat -- and to the exact degree nobody can be sure -- but in the previous patch there were plenty of examples of people going 4-1 or even 3-2 and being placed in the highest league because their opponents were also rated very highly. 2) If you are truly Diamond-caliber, your MMR will rise up to Diamond level naturally anyway. Once you start getting a >49% win ratio against those types of players you'll inevitably be promoted. You don't necessarily have to go on any type of streak, your MMR just has to breach the Diamond threshold. | ||
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Surrealz
United States449 Posts
On June 07 2010 14:26 Excalibur_Z wrote: Of course you couldn't get into Diamond immediately anymore anyway, so we'll discount that. As far as your hypothetical scenario, the system counterbalances that in two ways: 1) You may not drop into Gold at all. If your opponent's MMR was high enough and exceeded the Platinum threshold by enough points, there's a good chance that your MMR won't be as adversely affected. The most recent patch did tweak the algorithm somewhat -- and to the exact degree nobody can be sure -- but in the previous patch there were plenty of examples of people going 4-1 or even 3-2 and being placed in the highest league because their opponents were also rated very highly. 2) If you are truly Diamond-caliber, your MMR will rise up to Diamond level naturally anyway. Once you start getting a >49% win ratio against those types of players you'll inevitably be promoted. You don't necessarily have to go on any type of streak, your MMR just has to breach the Diamond threshold. While this is true, you may have beat the first 4 players who were all extremely terrible and low ranked and then lost the 5th game to someone who is exceptionally good. You still went 4-1, but your 4 wins were against people who were very low. Yes, you will eventually soar up to diamond once you get the required MMR, it will still take quite a bit of time/win streaks. The whole point of my reply was to get the point across that the current placement match system is a bit inaccurate. | ||
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potchip
Australia260 Posts
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MaxwellE
England229 Posts
Top 10% - Diamond 10-25% - Platinum 25-45% - Gold 45-70% - Silver 70-100% - Bronze This doesn't make sense. Why would most people be in Bronze? It should look more like this, with the highest number of people in Gold. ![[image loading]](http://www.physics.orst.edu/~rubin/TALKS/Blind/gauss.gif) | ||
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Doomgaze
Sweden89 Posts
On June 07 2010 18:43 MaxwellE wrote: This doesn't make sense. Why would most people be in Bronze? It should look more like this, with the highest number of people in Gold. I think the layers of skill more resemble that of a pyramid. I sincerely doubt there are about as many players in the top as in the bottom. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
On June 07 2010 18:43 MaxwellE wrote: This doesn't make sense. Why would most people be in Bronze? It should look more like this, with the highest number of people in Gold. The higher you get the more exclusive the league gets meaning less and less players the higher you get. It actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it. View the system as a pyramid. | ||
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Peekaboo
Canada219 Posts
The only thing I can think of that makes this an invalid assumption is the "noob factor". SC II has a ton of noobs. This would lop of the left side of the distribution (making it more like the pyramid analogy). What is really happening is the total population distribution is really two different normal distributions combined--one of the experienced players and one of the inexperienced (which has more people, thus allowing enough players to fill out "the bottom of the pyramid"). I would expect that in Brood War the distribution of player skill is more-or-less normal, as there aren't an over-abundance of noobs. There is no reason to expect anything but a normal distribution when you are talking about people. | ||
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