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On April 03 2010 08:08 MorroW wrote:
so bottom line its harder to get high rating pts in division 1 of platinum compared to 10?
i thought the rating was just as hard to get for everybody xd
No, it's not harder to get rating points in division 1 compared to 10. It's just harder to be ranked top 8 in division 1 because there are more "good" players that have high rating points as well. Rating points are the same for everybody; he just meant that in division 1 there will be more people with rank 1800+ etc, so it will be harder to get a higher rank in that division than if you were in division 10.
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United States12240 Posts
On April 03 2010 08:08 MorroW wrote:
so bottom line its harder to get high rating pts in division 1 of platinum compared to 10?
i thought the rating was just as hard to get for everybody xd
it was a good read but why do they (if what ur saying is true) give us fake rating? why cant it just be like iccup where 2000 pts is better than 1900 regardless of anything else :x
whats even the point of seing ur rating if its not comparable to ppl outside ur division :/
I think you might be misinterpreting here. So, you're among the higher skill levels. That means your MMR is going to be higher than most players, and likely above even those within your division. Let's say you get to #1 within your division and you have a 50-50 win ratio. Now let's say the #10 person is a couple hundred points below you, and his MMR is a bit lower than yours, but he has a better win rate. Even if he wins games often enough for him to get up to your MMR, once he reaches your MMR he'd be playing people around your level, and his win rate would drop. You would still have an edge. In short, you've already played and beaten all the people that the #10 person is currently playing, and there is basically a permanent invisible buffer between the two of you, barring his skill increasing at a greater rate than yours.
Your rating is only used to rank you against people within your division for the purposes of tournament placement. It's not completely irrelevant and certainly not "fake" because it does serve a purpose, only a fairly limited purpose. It's not the most elegant design because you're regularly playing against people outside of your division anyway, but it gives you a tangible goal. That's pretty much it. Rating is absolutely comparable across divisions, so it's too bad that the interface doesn't make it easy to do that. It's pretty safe to say that whoever has the highest rating in a league probably has the highest MMR, making them the best player. With any luck, we'll be able to browse across divisions upon release.
Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 07:49 TimeToPractice! wrote:
Nice read, but on one point: Skilled players are in lower numbered divisions - not sure how accurate that is. I'm pretty sure it's random. I'd say the only thing you can take from someone being in a low division number is they've been playing in X league for a long period of time (since the ladder reset) and even then that's not totally true, as once those players ascend to a higher league, new players will fill those spots to hit 100 again. i think its all got to do with the 5 first games u make and how soon u got it. i dont think its possible to move up and down divisions, only ranks. i simply think the "more skilled" ppl get in the 1-5 plat just because they play alot and go 5-0 in the placement and get thrown in, then 2 days later they seem full and even if others go 5-0 they get like division 8 or so xd
Yep that's exactly why.
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United States12240 Posts
On April 03 2010 07:45 MeProU_Kor wrote:
0-1499: Newb
i am a newb damn =( damn i wanted to stop for today after reaching 1400 points but this made me very sad T:T
I think you're confusing rating with MMR. Rating is what it is. I'm only drawing a parallel to WoW Arena's MMRs because they're more transparent. I would say that unless you're in the Copper league, your MMR is going to be much much higher than your point total.
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On April 03 2010 07:34 AeroGear wrote:
I'd rather have them keep the AMM a bit less restrictive than it is for WC3/TFT, before the implementation of the AMM it was matching players only according to their level +/- 6, which led to some unfair matchups and encouraged smurfing for those "pristine" stats.
While that may have encouraged smurfing, as you say, the unlimited number of accounts let people get away with it.
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"Tough" Divisions
Because divisions are generated as necessary, invariably the most skilled and most dedicated players will rise to the top and be placed in the low-numbered divisions...
Pretty sure this is wrong. I was placed in division 2 after there were 18 divisions before the whipe and this was after my placement matches. I'm in no way a "top player" I didn't even win all my placement matches. I went like 9-1. The placement is first come first serve. Someone dropped out of division 2 and it had to be replaced and i just happened to be the next person to get in platinum.
The reason the "named" players are in divisions 1-5 is because they played their matches early because they are power gamers and get it done early.
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On April 03 2010 09:22 starcraft911 wrote:Show nested quote +"Tough" Divisions
Because divisions are generated as necessary, invariably the most skilled and most dedicated players will rise to the top and be placed in the low-numbered divisions... Pretty sure this is wrong. I was placed in division 2 after there were 18 divisions before the whipe and this was after my placement matches. I'm in no way a "top player" I didn't even win all my placement matches. I went like 9-1. The placement is first come first serve. Someone dropped out of division 2 and it had to be replaced and i just happened to be the next person to get in platinum. The reason the "named" players are in divisions 1-5 is because they played their matches early because they are power gamers and get it done early.
The point is that the most dedicated of the highly-skilled players will be much more likely to play their placement matches early on, so they'll get placed in the first few divisions formed more often.
It's first come first served ... but the top players are more likely to be in the "first come" group than Joe Random.
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United States12240 Posts
Gonna bump this for the weekend visitors.
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NICE IM EXTREMELY GOOD AT WOW ARENAS. IM KIND OF A BIG DEAL NOW.
Anyway, awesome analysis, very informative.
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On April 03 2010 02:02 Excalibur_Z wrote:
a hidden "matchmaking rating", or MMR. This is the sole factor in determining everything within the system.
That's not quite what you wrote below. At least the total number of games in your match history are used to compute the volatility of your ranking. That's an important factor. Otherwise a great write up. Thx!
I read somewhere that Bliz called it the best system available right now so I wouldn't be surprised if they'd have some non-trivial way to determine rating/volatility.
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if you get placed in a division with people that have higher points already i'm pretty sure you get more bonus points. (This is the point of the bonus points, no?)
so points won't really be comparable across divisions only within them.
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United States12240 Posts
On April 04 2010 07:34 Asta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 02:02 Excalibur_Z wrote:
a hidden "matchmaking rating", or MMR. This is the sole factor in determining everything within the system. That's not quite what you wrote below. At least the total number of games in your match history are used to compute the volatility of your ranking. That's an important factor. Otherwise a great write up. Thx! I read somewhere that Bliz called it the best system available right now so I wouldn't be surprised if they'd have some non-trivial way to determine rating/volatility.
Each game you play impacts your MMR, which in turn impacts who you play in the future and how many points you get from them. As far as how it affects volatility, the system's goal is a 50% win rate, so any extended streaks will impact your volatility (or rather, causes the system to lose confidence in its estimate of your skill level). I think you sort of caught me in a technicality because I used the all-encompassing word "everything" which may have been a mistake, because MMR comparisons don't alone affect volatility. I don't think that volatility is necessarily a product of all your games played (though that's certainly possible) because the system would probably cement you at a certain level early and make it much harder to be promoted/demoted. That is an interesting question, though.
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nice work thank!
but anyway i dislike this system iccup ftw
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About the "hidden rating" idea. The use of hidden ratings in SC2 ladder would be useless.
The point of the hidden rating system in World Of Warcraft is to address several issues that SC2 doesn't have.
- Having more than 1 member on a team
-Those members having each of their own personal ratings
-People leaving and joining teams multiple times
- New teams forming whenever during the season
What would the point be of having a hidden rating when you and you alone affect your ladder rating that you can never reset.
Also, you use the term "MMR" which has nothing to do with the hidden rating of each person.
MMR means Matchmaking Rating. The official team rating will be skewed because of the amount of games played or the hidden ratings of each individual teammate. The MMR is the estimated team skill in the format of the rating system, non-biased towards hidden ratings and previous team members. It is as accurate as possible of how the team is "currently" playing.
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I remember reading somewhere that bonus points were given to players at a constant interval, and those points are added to any wins. However, to address the issue of players 'starting late' into the ladder, the bonus points are given to the player based on the time of ladder reset (rather than first placement date or anything like that).
But I'm under the impression that this concept is very useless (other than to encourage players to play a couple of times everyday and not let the points stagnate). Everybody has access to these points, and as long as you win a small handful of games, you'll redeem all of your points.
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I've searched this forum but couldn't find anything about unknown divisions (glitch?). I ranked up to silver in 2vs2 random but it says my division is unknown and it doesn't show anything for my ranked place and it still defaults me to the bronze ladder I used to be in. The only way I can see my rank is after a game on the game facts screen.
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On April 04 2010 10:00 guitarizt wrote:
I've searched this forum but couldn't find anything about unknown divisions (glitch?). I ranked up to silver in 2vs2 random but it says my division is unknown and it doesn't show anything for my ranked place and it still defaults me to the bronze ladder I used to be in. The only way I can see my rank is after a game on the game facts screen.
Check the official bug forum:
http://forums.battle.net/board.html?forumId=25498616&sid=5000
I had that bug and I fixed it by losing 44 games in a row to be demoted. My guess is that the bug goes away when you either get demoted or promoted.
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United States12240 Posts
On April 04 2010 09:33 DSC wrote:
About the "hidden rating" idea. The use of hidden ratings in SC2 ladder would be useless.
The point of the hidden rating system in World Of Warcraft is to address several issues that SC2 doesn't have.
- Having more than 1 member on a team
-Those members having each of their own personal ratings
-People leaving and joining teams multiple times
- New teams forming whenever during the season
What would the point be of having a hidden rating when you and you alone affect your ladder rating that you can never reset.
Also, you use the term "MMR" which has nothing to do with the hidden rating of each person.
MMR means Matchmaking Rating. The official team rating will be skewed because of the amount of games played or the hidden ratings of each individual teammate. The MMR is the estimated team skill in the format of the rating system, non-biased towards hidden ratings and previous team members. It is as accurate as possible of how the team is "currently" playing.
I don't know if you have the beta or not, but currently all you see is your point total and your league and division, with no other marker for progress. The pairing system has to use a hidden MMR. The purpose of the MMR is to pair players with similar skill levels, just as it does in WoW, only because of the different leagues, the system wants players to be promoted or demoted more quickly than grinding out points to the top or bottom of a division. This is why the MMR is theorized to extend far beyond your actual points accrued in order to pair you with players with whom you'll be matched at a 50% win rate.
Also, there are no more hidden ratings in WoW (as of 3.1 or 3.2 I believe?). The MMR is shown after each match. It would be nice if SC2 were as transparent as that, but it may get even more confusing because of the distinct leagues.
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On April 03 2010 07:49 TimeToPractice! wrote:
Nice read, but on one point: Skilled players are in lower numbered divisions - not sure how accurate that is. I'm pretty sure it's random. I'd say the only thing you can take from someone being in a low division number is they've been playing in X league for a long period of time (since the ladder reset) and even then that's not totally true, as once those players ascend to a higher league, new players will fill those spots to hit 100 again.
The reason the skilled players are in that league is because they were among the first to be placed there after the system reset.
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EPT
