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I think if his blog was anonymous so that nobody knew it was Garimto who wrote it, everyone would suddenly see how poor quality it really is.
What analyses is this? Toss now has a cool unit named Immortal - they can just mass those and storm and win! Less clicks equals more strategy! In BW you could just mass units and win, as opposed to SC2 Zerg, with which you can just mass units and win! Assertions with no backing, logically inconsistent, no coherent arguments, just semi-drunk ranting. Really, is this the best a strategic innovator can do?
Seriously, try it. Ask an experienced player who hasn't seen this thread to comment on the content of the blog without telling him it's Garimto. He sounds like a clueless noob. Nazgul is bending over backwards to make his arguments stick - dude, let it go, Garimto is great and all, but this blog entry is crap. Compare it to the depth of arguments and effort put into articles by other, less experienced players.
Thanks for the translation - this was a disappointment.
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On March 06 2010 05:56 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
the last line has me scratching my head... UHHHH it is WAY easier to "just make lots of units" in SC2 and win than it was/is in SCBW lol
I didn't read most of the thread, but I think this is just a result of nobody know how to play SC2 well. Since nobody really knows what strategies to do, the person who can outmacro the other player will win most of the time. BW was much more like this when it first came out, too. I mean, imagine someone trying to 3 gate rush a la garimto in modern BW. They'd get stomped. But in the early days he was able to just outmacro/micro and not have to use more advanced strategy.
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10387 Posts
On March 06 2010 05:13 Waxangel wrote:
From what I've seen so far, I think this might be a difficult game for beginners. It's not a game like BW where you can win just by just blindly making a lot of units.
I find this quote to be highly ignorant and insulting. I'm disappointed by Garimto
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my friend plays pretty much a very straightforward macro game with protoss, add sentries to that with force field and guardian shield... and he wins quite a bit, against people he could have never ever won on broodwar....
I mean he even beat artosis today and he was never even any remotely close to me... I really don't see SC2 as mind games so far :/
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United States47024 Posts
On March 07 2010 09:38 Fayth wrote:
my friend plays pretty much a very straightforward macro game with protoss, add sentries to that with force field and guardian shield... and he wins quite a bit, against people he could have never ever won on broodwar....
I mean he even beat artosis today and he was never even any remotely close to me... I really don't see SC2 as mind games so far :/
That has arguably to do with the fact that many players have 10+ years of experience with SC1, and nobody other than CowGoMoo and David Kim have more than a month of experience with SC2.
Artosis has been playing SC1 since basically it's release, and understands the game at a level that few people in the world do. Nobody understands SC2 at that level yet. Comparing his SC1 ability to his SC2 ability is meaningless.
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Thanks for the translation! Even when I disagree with some facts he has his point.
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Really really nice insight.
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gosh look at this rookie swarm at sc2 forums
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On March 07 2010 08:42 Doctorasul wrote:
I think if his blog was anonymous so that nobody knew it was Garimto who wrote it, everyone would suddenly see how poor quality it really is.
What analyses is this? Toss now has a cool unit named Immortal - they can just mass those and storm and win! Less clicks equals more strategy! In BW you could just mass units and win, as opposed to SC2 Zerg, with which you can just mass units and win! Assertions with no backing, logically inconsistent, no coherent arguments, just semi-drunk ranting. Really, is this the best a strategic innovator can do?
Seriously, try it. Ask an experienced player who hasn't seen this thread to comment on the content of the blog without telling him it's Garimto. He sounds like a clueless noob. Nazgul is bending over backwards to make his arguments stick - dude, let it go, Garimto is great and all, but this blog entry is crap. Compare it to the depth of arguments and effort put into articles by other, less experienced players.
Thanks for the translation - this was a disappointment.
Hey dick, it's a blog entry. Not some analytical article for a hardcore SC site. The majority of people reading it are fans of Garimto first and fans of SC second. So as a blog entry it's perfectly appropriate level of analysis.
User was warned for this post.
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On March 09 2010 21:29 Straylight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 08:42 Doctorasul wrote:
I think if his blog was anonymous so that nobody knew it was Garimto who wrote it, everyone would suddenly see how poor quality it really is.
What analyses is this? Toss now has a cool unit named Immortal - they can just mass those and storm and win! Less clicks equals more strategy! In BW you could just mass units and win, as opposed to SC2 Zerg, with which you can just mass units and win! Assertions with no backing, logically inconsistent, no coherent arguments, just semi-drunk ranting. Really, is this the best a strategic innovator can do?
Seriously, try it. Ask an experienced player who hasn't seen this thread to comment on the content of the blog without telling him it's Garimto. He sounds like a clueless noob. Nazgul is bending over backwards to make his arguments stick - dude, let it go, Garimto is great and all, but this blog entry is crap. Compare it to the depth of arguments and effort put into articles by other, less experienced players.
Thanks for the translation - this was a disappointment. Hey dick, it's a blog entry. Not some analytical article for a hardcore SC site. The majority of people reading it are fans of Garimto first and fans of SC second. So as a blog entry it's perfectly appropriate level of analysis.
Disclaimer: I am a bad SC1 player, and my APM is quite low, so im sorry if im wrong, feel free to tell me if u disagree with what im saying, and especially I apologize from Garimto if i misunderstood what he meant.
1. I can hardly imagine somebody being a fan of Garimto, and not knowing SCBW...
2. Also my first thoughts on this was, that "its just like a comercial". But I think he may have meant that SCBW amateur games were decided by "who can macro better", because it took so high APM to macro, that if u spent your time micoring u could have lost, even against an A-moving opponent, 'cause he was training reinforcements in the meantime...
3. Also watching TSL for example, even top foreigner players (or sometimes even Korean pros) have like 1000+ minerals after a battle. And by simplifying the macro in SC2 that may change...
Anyway, thats what i think Garimto meant.
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SC2 is new so atm there are two kind of players that are *good*:
To put it simple:
The ones that *get* the game really fast, which are just ahead of the pack due to "seeing" how this game should be played way faster than others.
The ones that have really high apm to make even *rather* unsound decisions work better than they should.
If you suck at both of these, you will have a hard time until someone figures out the game for you and final patches make it stable. If you don't do truly retarded stuff you can get away with many things if your fast enough, if you do really smart stuff you can get away with lacking control... AT THE MOMENT.
Remember when Replays came out in SC/BW? Total scrubs improved like tenfold in a matter of days/weeks due to having really good developed strategies available to just copy them whiteout even needing to read and imagine/understand them to use them in an efficient way. That’s not the case in SC2 right now because there are not that many really developed/fine tuned strategies/builds and it's hard to tell which one actually is a truly good one (ok, for PvP it's probably easy atm  ).
I mean just look at some builds Platin/Gold players still actually do. Right now, compared to the large pack, these are the *good* players.
I yesterday played a guy that did: Fast 2 Hatch/2 Queen/high econ into Speedlings into Roach into Muta into Hydra with dual Evo and no expansion O_o. There is no way in hell he could ever support this and a little thinking/understanding would have told him that he could never support this... It would also have told him that 1 Base Muta isn't good because he would never get a serious amount of them...
The map made the game (look) closer than it should have been (I was never in danger to actually losing but I couldn't just roflstomp him because of the long way to his base) and I probably should have expanded a little earlier/defended my expansion attempts instead of just cancelling the morphing hatches and going on the offensive. In the end I had 2 fresh expo's, the bigger army (in fact I had an army and he not anymore ) and still a few minerals in my main while he was completely mined out.
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On March 06 2010 05:13 Waxangel wrote:
Starcraft II is a game where the person who thinks faster wins, not the person who clicks faster. They cut down on a lot of the repetitive macro, and offered a lot of solutions through counters and thoughtful play.
I think a lot of people are reading into this in a way that wasn't intended. This needs to read in conjunction with his later point.
By reducing manual tasks here and there, they try to make you focus on battles, build orders, and strategies.
To fully understand this point, a good example would be the following bow and arrow contests:
+ Show Spoiler +(note: drawing a bowstring requires strength, aiming at a target requires accuracy)
Contest 1 (aka SC):
You have 1 minute to hit 30 stationary targets. That means you have 2 seconds per target.
Contest 2 (aka SC2):
You have 1 minute to hit 6 moving targets. That means you have 10 seconds per target.
The significant changes to note when going from Contest 1 to Contest 2 are:
1. You can spend more time per shot
2. You require additional accuracy and shots are harder to predict
3. You require less strength as there are less shots to make
These changes will result in:
1. Higher accuracy requirements
2. Higher average level of accuracy among contestants
3. Lower strength requirements
4. Lower average level of strength among contestants
However it would be a fallacy to conclude that this lowers the overall skill requirements. Accuracy is not absent in Contest 1 and arm strength is not absent in Contest 2, and both are even very important for each contest.
Yet it is true that the Contests 1 rewards contestants who focus on strength over accuracy where Contest 2 rewards players who focus on accuracy over strength.
What does this mean for competition?
It means that each single shot (event) becomes much more important. The winner will not be decided by giving each contestant a large number of small events to manage. Rather it will be decided by how well each contestant is able to manage all the minor aspects of the fewer, more significant events.
This may be part of the reason why players are feeling like SC2 hinges much more heavily on single battles.
Finally, considering Garimto's other controversial statement:
From what I've seen so far, I think this might be a difficult game for beginners. It's not a game like BW where you can win just by just blindly making a lot of units.
I believe that what was he intended to communicate was this:
"From what I've seen so far, I think [SC2 right now, as it is beginning] might be a difficult game for beginners [who are new to the SC scene]. It's not a game like BW [was in the beginning] where you can win by just blindly making a lot of units [like you could at the beginning of BW before anyone knew much about the game]."
I believe that he's making a statement NOT only about the beginning of SC1 vs the beginning of SC2, but rather about the way a new player could approach SC1 in the beginning vs the way a new player (ie not a SC1 veteran) must approach SC2.
That's my take on it anyway.
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I'm pretty sure Garimto is saying that because of the UI, managing macro is so much easier, everyone can make a lot of units and pump peons (rally = automine), putting the emphasis back on "mind vs. mind". Obviously, the blog is of his initial impressions, so that statement may turn out to be wrong. I tend to agree with him for this reason (although I don't have a beta key): In BW, making a lot of units turned out to be such an essential skill that a certain level of mechanics were required to be competitive, rather than in the days of Boxer and company, where creative strategies alone were capable of winning the day.
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completely agree, zerg/toss strats are sooooo much easier to execute and playing terran leaves room for no mistakes, the terran push needs to be made more strong
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On March 09 2010 21:50 Kuzmorgo wrote:
1. I can hardly imagine somebody being a fan of Garimto, and not knowing SCBW...
They do know SC, but they're more fans about Garimnto than SC.
Like fangirls crushing on Bisu probably show up to events more to see him than to watch the games. These are probably the majority of people reading Garimto's blog and aren't looking for high level analysis in it.
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On March 07 2010 02:50 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 02:40 floor exercise wrote:
It sounds like Garimto still clearly has a chip on his shoulder about getting passed up by players with good mechanics in SC. A game that requires speed/technique and thinking/creativity is obviously better than one that requires just one of those, or heavily favors one over the other.
Some of his comments come off like one of those newbies who make snide comments about SC because you have to be fast and a strong multitasker. I doubt he's going to be a top player in SC2 and will no doubt find flaws in the game to explain why when he inevitably gets passed up by people once builds and strategies are refined to a point where mechanics are just as important again.
He's innovative and creative but I think it's fair to say he's far from a complete player part of this is because of the fucking horrible AI. Why do you think people need to practice 12-16 hrs a day of bw? Its to overcome the shit pathing and AI. Things dont build on you, tons of crappy stuff happens all the time. Units running into each other then going backwards. Its frustrating to just thinking about it 
Have to agree with this. In fact, having played SC2B, it has become very hard for me to go back and play BW. The absolutely frustrating unit pathing in BW was like a subtle headache. You feel it for weeks or months or years but you never quite know how much it hurt until it goes away. SC2B for me was like a dose of ibuprofen. Now what I know what it is like to have units obey me instead of wandering all over the map, I can't ever go back.
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On March 10 2010 05:26 EleanorRIgby wrote:
completely agree, zerg/toss strats are sooooo much easier to execute and playing terran leaves room for no mistakes, the terran push needs to be made more strong
That would make them too strong in the hands of skilled players. Terran will just be the pro race :D
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On March 10 2010 07:39 Straylight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 21:50 Kuzmorgo wrote:
1. I can hardly imagine somebody being a fan of Garimto, and not knowing SCBW...
They do know SC, but they're more fans about Garimnto than SC. Like fangirls crushing on Bisu probably show up to events more to see him than to watch the games. These are probably the majority of people reading Garimto's blog and aren't looking for high level analysis in it.
He's Garimto, if you expect anyything else than deep analysis, you're stupid.
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On March 07 2010 08:42 Doctorasul wrote:
I think if his blog was anonymous so that nobody knew it was Garimto who wrote it, everyone would suddenly see how poor quality it really is.
What analyses is this? Toss now has a cool unit named Immortal - they can just mass those and storm and win! Less clicks equals more strategy! In BW you could just mass units and win, as opposed to SC2 Zerg, with which you can just mass units and win! Assertions with no backing, logically inconsistent, no coherent arguments, just semi-drunk ranting. Really, is this the best a strategic innovator can do?
Seriously, try it. Ask an experienced player who hasn't seen this thread to comment on the content of the blog without telling him it's Garimto. He sounds like a clueless noob. Nazgul is bending over backwards to make his arguments stick - dude, let it go, Garimto is great and all, but this blog entry is crap. Compare it to the depth of arguments and effort put into articles by other, less experienced players.
Thanks for the translation - this was a disappointment.
I don't think it was a bad blog entry at all (it wasn't meant to be a college dissertation) and I have a sneaking feeling your main problem with his post is his conclusions (which run totally counter to the whining about MBS and automine which infested these forums for a good year and a half)
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EPT
