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United States47024 Posts
On March 01 2010 04:37 PGHammer wrote:
The nerf also has the side-effect of making Protoss early-game rushes pretty much undoable (Stalkers and Colossi, either mixed or alone, are too expensive to build in groups and too INexpensive to counter; the situation with Void Rays or other air units is even worse). Zealots? Please; too expensive (more expensive than even Marines, let alone Zerglings, and nearly as expensive as Roaches).
You mean other than the fact that proxy 2gate works as well as it ever did?
Zealots costing more than Marines and Zerglings never stopped rushing before. DTs could work better, but not because of the unit itself, but the fact that the Dark Shrine is a retarded building that doesn't do anything.
Think about the rushes that exist in SC1 available to protoss:
Proxy 2gate - still works
DT Rush - Dark Shrine is a stupid building, if fixed then still works
Bulldog - technical enough that any equivalent wouldn't have been discovered yet
+1 speedzeal - timing dependent, equivalent wouldn't have been discovered yet
10/15 - success is map dependent, so equivalent may arise when map variety increases
3gate zeal - still works
4gate goon - designed to beat 2gate robo, so obviously without similar timing having been discovered, equivalent can't exist
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On February 28 2010 11:05 radiumz0rz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2010 06:11 PredY wrote:
people switching races because of patches are ridiculous - SERIOUSLY WTF?? its a fcking beta!! Well, being that a majority of American players right now are Protoss, this might balance out the races. People don't choose to play Protoss just because they love their look but it was easier to play Protoss than the other two races.
That is true because of the unique ability of Probes to start warping in a structure and *leave* to start warping in the next structure. If you want to build a base in a hurry, you need fifteen Zerg, or ten SCVs.
Or one Probe.
While Protoss have the highest material budgets for units and structures, they have the dead-lowest *beingpower* budget for structures. (Heck; if you know that it will take a while to rebuild your mineral/gas budget, you can send your construction Probe back to material-gathering after warping in the last building.)
That low beingpower budget offsets the high materiel cost for buildings and units and fits VERY well with the American Way. (It fits in just as well in the ROK, as the Protoss is just as popular among their top players of SC and BW.)
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can I download the patch somewhere? I can't connect with this incredibly stupid download-tracker. I've downloaded the Game from another Server and have a Betakey, but I can't find a place to download the patch - that's ridiculous!
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On March 01 2010 04:48 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2010 04:37 PGHammer wrote:
The nerf also has the side-effect of making Protoss early-game rushes pretty much undoable (Stalkers and Colossi, either mixed or alone, are too expensive to build in groups and too INexpensive to counter; the situation with Void Rays or other air units is even worse). Zealots? Please; too expensive (more expensive than even Marines, let alone Zerglings, and nearly as expensive as Roaches). You mean other than the fact that proxy 2gate works as well as it ever did? Zealots costing more than Marines and Zerglings never stopped rushing before. DTs could work better, but not because of the unit itself, but the fact that the Dark Shrine is a retarded building that doesn't do anything. Think about the rushes that exist in SC1 available to protoss: Proxy 2gate - still works DT Rush - Dark Shrine is a stupid building, if fixed then still works Bulldog - technical enough that any equivalent wouldn't have been discovered yet +1 speedzeal - timing dependent, equivalent wouldn't have been discovered yet 10/15 - success is map dependent, so equivalent may arise when map variety increases 3gate zeal - still works 4gate goon - designed to beat 2gate robo, so obviously without similar timing having been discovered, equivalent can't exist
You can't do as much damage with an all-Zealot rush as you can with Marines or Zerglings (let alone Roaches or Banelings) for their cost (and what are the Zealot counters; Marines, Roaches, Zerglings and Banelings) unless you upgrade to tier 2 or taller and hope your opposition didn't (highly unlikely, since the opposition counters can upgrade faster than you can due to lower unit cost). The Dark Shrine is a requirement for Dark Templar (and thus for Dark Archons as well); otherwise, they have the same abilities as their High Templar brethren (and get them at the Templar Archives) so it *has* a reason for being (Fleet Beacons do nothing, either; however, they are required for not just the Mothership, but Carriers require them as well). True; if DT had unique abilities that High Templars did not, the Dark Shrine would be the idea place to *research* them. As opposed to 4-gate Dragoon, you have 4-gate Stalker/Immortal (however, this is better with Warp Gates as opposed to Gateways, because of longer range).
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United States47024 Posts
On March 01 2010 12:04 PGHammer wrote:
You can't do as much damage with an all-Zealot rush as you can with Marines or Zerglings (let alone Roaches or Banelings) for their cost (and what are the Zealot counters; Marines, Roaches, Zerglings and Banelings) unless you upgrade to tier 2 or taller and hope your opposition didn't (highly unlikely, since the opposition counters can upgrade faster than you can due to lower unit cost). The Dark Shrine is a requirement for Dark Templar (and thus for Dark Archons as well); otherwise, they have the same abilities as their High Templar brethren (and get them at the Templar Archives) so it *has* a reason for being (Fleet Beacons do nothing, either; however, they are required for not just the Mothership, but Carriers require them as well). True; if DT had unique abilities that High Templars did not, the Dark Shrine would be the idea place to *research* them. As opposed to 4-gate Dragoon, you have 4-gate Stalker/Immortal (however, this is better with Warp Gates as opposed to Gateways, because of longer range).
Zealots beat zerglings before any upgrades come in, and proxy 2gate arrives before any zergling upgrades finish, and before you could possibly have Roaches or Banelings out. Marines only beat Zealots upgraded or with protection (wall-in or bunker)--at the early stage of the game, Marines get chewed up by Zealots. You need to pull SCVs, either to block the Zealots, or to repair your wall if you manage to finish it before 2gate hits.
Not sure why you're using the rest to argue how early DT and 4gate Stalker/Immortal aggression are viable, seeing as your previous post was just saying that Protoss can't be aggressive early.
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It's a scam with promising beta keys number 99999.
It can be one of those where he will ask a scan off your Id to proof your not making extra e-mails, but in fact he's gonna use that to scam you out of your b.net account/whatever
Or one of those where he will send a link to some kind of surveything he makes money off.
Whatever it may be I can assure you you won't be getting a key
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Wow there sure is a lot of whining in this thread. It's a BETA TEST!
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On March 01 2010 14:20 alexanderzero wrote:
Wow there sure is a lot of whining in this thread. It's a BETA TEST!
And why do we have Beta-tests? - For Balancing!
And how does Blizzard know what to balance? - from whining!
There u go....
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On March 01 2010 13:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2010 12:04 PGHammer wrote:
You can't do as much damage with an all-Zealot rush as you can with Marines or Zerglings (let alone Roaches or Banelings) for their cost (and what are the Zealot counters; Marines, Roaches, Zerglings and Banelings) unless you upgrade to tier 2 or taller and hope your opposition didn't (highly unlikely, since the opposition counters can upgrade faster than you can due to lower unit cost). The Dark Shrine is a requirement for Dark Templar (and thus for Dark Archons as well); otherwise, they have the same abilities as their High Templar brethren (and get them at the Templar Archives) so it *has* a reason for being (Fleet Beacons do nothing, either; however, they are required for not just the Mothership, but Carriers require them as well). True; if DT had unique abilities that High Templars did not, the Dark Shrine would be the idea place to *research* them. As opposed to 4-gate Dragoon, you have 4-gate Stalker/Immortal (however, this is better with Warp Gates as opposed to Gateways, because of longer range). Zealots beat zerglings before any upgrades come in, and proxy 2gate arrives before any zergling upgrades finish, and before you could possibly have Roaches or Banelings out. Marines only beat Zealots upgraded or with protection (wall-in or bunker)--at the early stage of the game, Marines get chewed up by Zealots. You need to pull SCVs, either to block the Zealots, or to repair your wall if you manage to finish it before 2gate hits. Not sure why you're using the rest to argue how early DT and 4gate Stalker/Immortal aggression are viable, seeing as your previous post was just saying that Protoss can't be aggressive early.
Immortals aren't available early (Stalkers are). And it takes serious time to build up a rushable Stalker/Zealot force (and research the L2 weapons/shielding for such a rush to work; meanwhile, the enemy is not likely to be twiddling their mouse, especially not if they are Zerg). Usually, if you're doing a mass of Stalkers early, you're doing *just* Stalkers, and fending off a Zergling/Roach/Baneling rush from the enemy (and if the Zerg have added Hydralisks or Infestors to the mix, you may well be screwed anyway, Stalkers or no Stalkers).
The Zerg pretty much are forced to push out for biological reasons (a Hatchery is *always* producing larvae, and at a faster rate than a CC produces SCVs/Nexus warps in Probes). If you luck out and the opponent is trying to bank minerals and gas for a midgame push (which actually makes sense if you are Protoss), you can out-expand him with little difficulty as long as you create enough Overlords to support additional Drone production (which means you'll also win the minerals/gas race and therefore be able to keep up with, if not actually beat, the enemy in terms of upgrades, as your upgrades are cheaper). If you try to rush early, and you are Protoss (PvZ) your only hope will be that the Zerg are trying to turtle; otherwise, your attempted push will get swamped under a wall of Zerglings, Roaches, Banelings, or all three. If you concentrated your resources on that push, you are then immediately vulnerable to a counterpush (especially if there are multiple Hatcheries).
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EPT
