EPTInterviews: Louder, Chill, PsyonicReaver - Page 4
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
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ruXxar
Norway5669 Posts
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Smuft
Canada318 Posts
On February 25 2010 11:21 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I agree with Louder on all accounts about the Beta. If they keep the micro the way it is right now the game isn't going to be as good as it can be. It's crucial to the success of e-sports that they fix this so that we can go back to being in awe over moves/micro done by top players. There is so little difference possible between two players when they're attacking each other that the games just play out as build order vs build order. Once you're ahead it's really hard to give away your advantage because even if your units get caught off guard they will still do the right thing in battle. Zergling surround and worker micro is something that was so important to the early game of BW that decided games based on how you performed it. That element is completely gone now. If you have enough Zerglings you'll just kill your opponent almost regardless of what he does. At the same time I have some doubts Blizzard will do anything about it because they have very consciously made the choice that they wanted noobs to be competent at it so that 99.9% of the non-pro population buys the game. I agree with this completely. I feel as if my units have no agility and the control I have over them is very limited. I had a conversation with a blizzard employee about this thoughts and was quite saddened when he was completely unaware of the problem and thought it was "fine". This tells me that there is currently a lack of awareness of what micro is in general over at the blizzard house and that instead of us making general complaints about micro we need to identify specific problems that prevent micro and come up with specific solutions / suggestions. This will require it's own thread in the future. | ||
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
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Esli
United States36 Posts
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Lenymo
Sweden7 Posts
FIX! | ||
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flabortaster
Philippines99 Posts
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Trap
United States395 Posts
p.s. what the hell happened to my F2,3,4 | ||
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Latham
9566 Posts
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
On February 25 2010 19:45 flabortaster wrote: So you guys want SC2 units to be dumber. All the enhanced unit pathfinding and AI is there so Units will choose the best bath to a point or the best way to get maximum coverage. So do you want a zealot to stutter around aimlessly instead trying to get to his target or let it navigate the best path towards its target? Like another poster said, there is no auto retreat or auto dropship pick up, this is just logical things smart AI pathfinding does. BTW there's no such thing as auto surround, just a logical result of smarter AI. There are still tons of ways for players to get good. WELL SAID. Couldn't have said it better myself. I cannot believe some ppl are actually complaining about smart path finding and AI. If you want dumb AI just so that you can "micro", go play original Red Alert. That's what you want right? Dumbest AI possible so you can click-fest? Pathetic complaint. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On February 25 2010 20:07 bendez wrote: If you want dumb AI just so that you can "micro", go play original Red Alert. That's what you want right? Dumbest AI possible so you can click-fest? Pathetic complaint. The AI in Red Alert wasn't "dumb". Play the game before you make comments like this. | ||
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Eury
Sweden1126 Posts
On February 25 2010 20:10 Lucumo wrote: The AI in Red Alert wasn't dumb. Play the game before you make comments like this. What? The AI in Red Alert is retarded just like in all other RTS from that period. | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
On February 25 2010 20:10 Lucumo wrote: The AI in Red Alert wasn't "dumb". Play the game before you make comments like this. I have, extensively. Compared to starcraft, it was "dumb". | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On February 25 2010 19:45 flabortaster wrote: So you guys want SC2 units to be dumber. All the enhanced unit pathfinding and AI is there so Units will choose the best bath to a point or the best way to get maximum coverage. So do you want a zealot to stutter around aimlessly instead trying to get to his target or let it navigate the best path towards its target? Like another poster said, there is no auto retreat or auto dropship pick up, this is just logical things smart AI pathfinding does. BTW there's no such thing as auto surround, just a logical result of smarter AI. There are still tons of ways for players to get good. There will still be ways to micro you're right about that, but if you limit a battle micro to retreating your wounded units then in the shortest time you will find that all top players are able to do this perfectly because it's a rather simple task if you don't have to focus on anything else. There needs to be differential between players; watching Flash play Terran and move his units around and comparing it to the next best Terran in the world after the game has been out for 11 years is just amazing. It's amazing because after all this time there still is a difference between these guys. This differences allows us to admire those who do brilliant things with their units. This is a really serious issue that every top player I have talked to has spoken his concerns about. The argument that BW micro differential appeared after it's release and that SC2 should be given time so that the same can happen is a false argument based on nothing but hope. It's not like they just changes the micro variables and they still need to be figured out again in order to be used properly; they removed the micro variables. In a way it's like units dumber -> players smarter, units smarter -> players dumber. Which one of these will be more suitable for watching people on TV bringing them to the status of Boxer/Nada/Jaedong/Flash. | ||
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Asta
Germany3491 Posts
If you don't like eSports, then why are you on this site? Isn't there another SC2 site where you can talk about 30min-no-rush carrier vs bc battles? | ||
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Vasoline73
United States7816 Posts
On February 25 2010 20:07 bendez wrote: WELL SAID. Couldn't have said it better myself. I cannot believe some ppl are actually complaining about smart path finding and AI. If you want dumb AI just so that you can "micro", go play original Red Alert. That's what you want right? Dumbest AI possible so you can click-fest? Pathetic complaint. lol says the guy who will probably play SC2 for 2-3 months and then stop playing Fastest Map and move on to the next flashy game. There's actually people who want to play SC2 for years and see a deep game evolve out of it. On February 25 2010 20:19 Asta wrote: I think this forum should get a script that automatically bans users using words like 'click-fest'. If you don't like eSports, then why are you on this site? Isn't there another SC2 site where you can talk about 30min-no-rush carrier vs bc battles? QFT. These guys aren't even going to play competitively and will get raped regardless of autosurround help and MBS. And then stop playing the game after a couple of months. | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
On February 25 2010 20:19 Asta wrote: I think this forum should get a script that automatically bans users using words like 'click-fest'. If you don't like eSports, then why are you on this site? Isn't there another SC2 site where you can talk about 30min-no-rush carrier vs bc battles? I love eSports, which is why I am on this site. Rest of your arguments are laughable. I will not bother with comment. | ||
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flabortaster
Philippines99 Posts
Like it was said, the game is not fully automated. You still have to make the tough decisions, but units shouldn't fail just because they can't handle themselves without your every attention. edited a lot, forgive my typos and bad grammar. | ||
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bendez
Canada283 Posts
On February 25 2010 20:19 Vasoline73 wrote: lol says the guy who will probably play SC2 for 2-3 months and then stop playing Fastest Map and move on to the next flashy game. There's actually people who want to play SC2 for years and see a deep game evolve out of it. QFT. These guys aren't even going to play competitively and will get raped regardless of autosurround help and MBS. And then stop playing the game after a couple of months. Really, you guys would love the original Red Alerts. Almost everything has to be manual, requires extreme micro and APM. I used the acroynm APM since 'click-fest' hurt your feelings. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On February 25 2010 20:24 flabortaster wrote: So, it's either smart, logical AI or not. The latter may take more "skill", but it not logical to have unit who don't know the simplest to a point or target. I'll take smarter AI over babysitting AI/pathfinding any day. It should be the player micro that make units excel not keep them from doing something monumentally stupid.(Dragoons going up ramps come to mind) SC1 default AI was terrible, needing the player to manually use them just to make them competent in battle. Unit AI should be by default competent while Player micro should makes them excel even more. Like it was said, the game is not fully automated. You still have to make the tough decisions, but units should fail just because they cant handle themselves without you every attention. No one is asking for Dragoon AI back. Unit path finding that when you click on a spot on the map it will actually go there is also a nice improvement. I don't think anyones concerns are about those things. I'd rather see them gone as well. Keeping them doesn't improve the game from a viewer perspective. | ||
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