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On February 23 2010 18:34 lostshard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 18:19 phexac wrote: I have not played the game, just watched the replays, but I got the impression that Stalkers are really weak against everything. They do low damage and don't have the much HP, especially considering average HP is higher in SC2 and many units do quite a bit of damage, and even old units like rines have more HP now. I just have not seen any games where Stalkers were effective at killing anything (out of like 20+ reps I watched with P in them). People make them, but they just don't really do anything unless the situation is already heavily stacked in their favor.
In SC1 dragoons were versatile units that were generally useful against everything (you typical jack of all trade unit). Stalkers cannot fill that role because they are simply too weak. They can't counter muta, they lose to marauders, they lose to rines, they lose to hydras, lings (not sure about roaches, but for cost they probably lose there as well). They are basically just too weak. This results in protoss being left without a good general purpose unit, which can penalize them overly much if they don't have perfect information about the enemy. Your lack of an all-purpose unit forces you to always make specific counters to what the other person is doing.
Say in SC1 mutas are coming. Your goons can help hold them off as you get sair or archon or whatnot. Stalkers just get owned. Hydras--goons can do a good job, but need some help. Stalker just owned so hard you are better off not even having them. Goons do fine vs most things. Stalkers can't hold their own against anything.
Stalkers do have blink. I have not seen that ability used all that much--does it really make up for them being so much weaker than the simple walking goons? Stalkers are useful but need to be micro-ed to be useful. They are the standard anti reaper rush unit. Also they serve as the protoss version of the reaper. They are not meant to be mass produced as they are the support/sniper/flanking/harass role. Edit: added harass role ^
Stalkers get owned by reapers, even one on one. Once you factor in cost, it becomes a rape. Stalkers take place of the dragoon, which was a key part of toss army--an all-purpose unit that can help toss hold its own against different strategies while they build more specific counters/tech. Stalker is too weak to fill that role. It's weaker than the goon, while on average units in SC2 got stronger.
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On February 23 2010 06:03 Phelix wrote: or getting Terran Air with Banshees, which is not viable since it is too slow to get out in time and gets picked apart by stalkers.
Not true. If you sit there and let your banshees fight the stalkers, then yes they will lose, however if you are smart you can deal a good amount of damage. You can have banshee's out before a Protoss upgrades blink, so you can easily kill any buildings/units near the edges of their base, and harass their mineral line. They both have the same range (6), but the banshee's can fly and can stack a bit, so if you are fighting stalkers at the edge of a cliff or base, usually only one or two stalkers can attack while all five or six of your banshee's can.
Later on, you can scan their base for an observer and if you don't see it, just cloak, rush in and either kill a lot of probes or take out the nexus. I've had it done to me, and although I won the game, I found it very powerful. Maybe I am a bad player or my opponent is bad, but I am 16-4 on the gold ladder, so I must be doing something right.
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On February 23 2010 18:19 phexac wrote:In SC1 dragoons were versatile units that were generally useful against everything (you typical jack of all trade unit). Stalkers cannot fill that role because they are simply too weak. They can't counter muta, they lose to marauders, they lose to rines, they lose to hydras, lings (not sure about roaches, but for cost they probably lose there as well). They are basically just too weak. This results in protoss being left without a good general purpose unit, which can penalize them overly much if they don't have perfect information about the enemy. Your lack of an all-purpose unit forces you to always make specific counters to what the other person is doing.
I'm not that good at StarCraft, but from my experience, don't Dragoons lose to all of those as well? (Well, not Mutalisks, but the Mutalisks will be ignoring your Dragoons and their pathetic damage output while dismantling your Probe line, so it's just as bad.)
As to the subject at hand, the StarCraft II Terran music is imbalanced. But then, it was in the original StarCraft too.
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The game seems really balanced, the roaches are totally not imba, even if the immortals are much more expensive they are so much more powerful. About the immortals vs terran, how the hell can you lose a battle with marines against immportals??
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This post should be stickied on the b.net forum and here. There's so so many people crying out "xx is imbalanced" simply because they didn't even scout it so they never saw it coming in time to make counters or because they got no idea how to properly counter it yet. So far after ~150 games I haven't come across a unit that feels imbalanced yet, although mothership is starting to feel too much like a hero-unit and Vortex is incredibly powerful in the right hands, but still I'll wait a few months until I judge it because right now you can really notice how the tactics evolve every single day when logging on b.net and it will take a long time until stuff is "figured out".
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gotta agree, things seem really balanced for a beta. The top players already play a flexible style while also practicing nice lil timing pushes.
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Compared with Warcraft3's first beta build, this game is a marvel of balance. I still remember Hero rushing with KOTG, having 12 Treants, and 3 mercenaries in their base in about the time they got a footman.
I have issues with balance like the Mothership is worlds better than an Arbiter. The mothership requires 2 less tech buildings. The tech building that it does require allows you to combo Arbiters with Carriers. All of its abilities are fully researched The mothership actually does carrier level damage. You can be building out of your startport while the mothership is being built. The mothership's teleport ability means it can save itself to heal up its shields to be used as a combat unit at a later time.
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On February 24 2010 06:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm not that good at StarCraft, but from my experience, don't Dragoons lose to all of those as well? (Well, not Mutalisks, but the Mutalisks will be ignoring your Dragoons and their pathetic damage output while dismantling your Probe line, so it's just as bad.)
At least you could psistorm mutalisks or go corsair. Phoenix don't deal enough damage vs muta to be effective. And if you start to almost get enough Phoenix to fight off muta, they'll switch to hydra, and they'll just keep their muta coming back to the hydra mass if you chase them off with your phoenix. One slip and all your phoenix die to hydra.
Now it seems only Archons can theoretically stop muta. So my build is like this: Heavy Zealots and pressure at a point where you won't be losing zs to a bunch of lings. Then I cannon my home base and expand. Cannons can still stop mutalisks. I tech straight to archons. I don't even get psistorm real fast as it isn't very useful. Now when I got 2 bases running with cannons in each, I scout them with whatever I got. If they're heavy ground, I go 2-3 robo to Collosus since Collossus = GG ground when comboed with speed zs /stalkers and archons.
It is lame that you're basically forced to cannon expand. But it is super nice that Collosus will win you the ground game, so it goes both ways.
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On February 23 2010 18:19 phexac wrote: As to the subject at hand, the StarCraft II Terran music is imbalanced. But then, it was in the original StarCraft too.
Hillbilly music from God's land pwn
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Hi,
As a terran player - i'm finding protoss hard on the maps where it takes a long time to actually get to the protoss base. - I can't find a viable solution to the immortal tech, the 1-2 zealots a 2 stalkers/2 immortal push seems to jib me pretty hard, if i massed a marauder/rine army going for medivacs, i'd pretty much lose all that ground vs it - and later meet a collosus on the next push - and if i go for quick banshees, although i push it back, he's dealt a shit load of damage already to my economy - enough that he's got stargates going up and phoenix's out pretty shortly.
Any suggestions on the TvP matchup? - Would be very appreciated.
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it seems to be that immortals are only useful with SHIELDS, if shields are gone, tanks will commence the pain. What takes away the shields though....oh yes I know, the ghost! have 1-3 in your army quick as can be (What I would love to see is a factory based build with only one rax (the one you make to start O.o) and make a hellion/tank/few thors(or vikings either are okish for anti air) and a few ghosts. Ghosts > Immortal shields, and Ghosts > HTs (snipe is amazing I hear).
Please beta people...go forth and try!
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On February 24 2010 14:26 KH1031 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2010 18:19 phexac wrote: As to the subject at hand, the StarCraft II Terran music is imbalanced. But then, it was in the original StarCraft too. Hillbilly music from God's land pwn
lol! Well, I had a different perspective. I mean, listen to Terran Theme 4 at around the two-minute mark and tell me it doesn't sound like Pink Floyd.
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United States4991 Posts
On February 24 2010 14:13 GoodNewsJim wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2010 06:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm not that good at StarCraft, but from my experience, don't Dragoons lose to all of those as well? (Well, not Mutalisks, but the Mutalisks will be ignoring your Dragoons and their pathetic damage output while dismantling your Probe line, so it's just as bad.)
At least you could psistorm mutalisks or go corsair. Phoenix don't deal enough damage vs muta to be effective. And if you start to almost get enough Phoenix to fight off muta, they'll switch to hydra, and they'll just keep their muta coming back to the hydra mass if you chase them off with your phoenix. One slip and all your phoenix die to hydra. Now it seems only Archons can theoretically stop muta. So my build is like this: Heavy Zealots and pressure at a point where you won't be losing zs to a bunch of lings. Then I cannon my home base and expand. Cannons can still stop mutalisks. I tech straight to archons. I don't even get psistorm real fast as it isn't very useful. Now when I got 2 bases running with cannons in each, I scout them with whatever I got. If they're heavy ground, I go 2-3 robo to Collosus since Collossus = GG ground when comboed with speed zs /stalkers and archons. It is lame that you're basically forced to cannon expand. But it is super nice that Collosus will win you the ground game, so it goes both ways. This post is ridiculously wrong There's no need to cannon expand in order to stop Mutalisks. Maybe we'll find that it's the best build around, but it's not the necessary way to fight Mutalisks. Phoenix + Sentry + Stalker (Phoenixes are optional but help a lot) is a ridiculously effective counter to Mutalisks. The Sentry's shield is totally key and makes Mutalisks do like no damage.
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Zurich15266 Posts
On February 24 2010 14:31 DeMusliM wrote: Hi,
As a terran player - i'm finding protoss hard on the maps where it takes a long time to actually get to the protoss base. - I can't find a viable solution to the immortal tech, the 1-2 zealots a 2 stalkers/2 immortal push seems to jib me pretty hard, if i massed a marauder/rine army going for medivacs, i'd pretty much lose all that ground vs it - and later meet a collosus on the next push - and if i go for quick banshees, although i push it back, he's dealt a shit load of damage already to my economy - enough that he's got stargates going up and phoenix's out pretty shortly.
Any suggestions on the TvP matchup? - Would be very appreciated. Try ghosts. I am experimenting with them at the moment, however I only play against randoms so I only get the timing right sometimes. I open 2 raxx both addons and attack while getting a ghost. The attack hits before P can have a colossus. I pull back immediately if I see immortals (they are well in time to hold this off). The ghost is there to live the immortal/sentry counter attack.
It's very tricky to place the EMP right before the sentry can cast it's shield, but if you manage that you can fend off the attack off 2 raxxes pretty well.
I have still trouble sometimes executing this but given your reputation I would love to hear about your experience with ghosts.
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complaining about imbalances is wayyyyyyy too early. lets wait several months...
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On February 23 2010 05:31 flamewheel91 wrote: It's balanced enough if you look at it this way too: If roaches (Zerg) are imba, reapers (Terran) are imba, and warp rays (Protoss) are imba, then everything is imbalanced and therefore it's balanced.
Somehow this train of thoughts reminds me of an ironic German proverb, which says:
If every person just cared only about himself, then at last everyone would be taken care of!
Not sure whether it exists in the english language as well or if the message is lost in translation, but in other words: "All races have imba units = balanced game" does not compute. In my eyes SC2 seems rather balanced so far because there seems to be no "broken imba unit". We might just need to get used to different "standard units" when compared to BW.
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Sorted out my matchup vs protoss thus far - tried ghosts a few games, they seemed to work when the toss didn't make collosus' or was abit silly micro wise, but i went down another road that seems alot more dependable.
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On February 24 2010 20:07 Drazzzt wrote: complaining about imbalances is wayyyyyyy too early. lets wait several months...
Well, whats the point of the beta if we can't complain and try to improve the balance? A week might be too early but there will be balance patches during the beta. That's a fact.
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On February 23 2010 05:31 flamewheel91 wrote: It's balanced enough if you look at it this way too: If roaches (Zerg) are imba, reapers (Terran) are imba, and warp rays (Protoss) are imba, then everything is imbalanced and therefore it's balanced. Not really. Balance is a complicated concept, and it doesn't involve summing up imbalances for either side, and then coming out equal. You need to look at the three matchups individually, as well as the different stages of the game. Moreover, even if imba units on either side resulted in a balanced game, it still wouldn't be a good game. We don't want too predictable gameplay.
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On February 23 2010 05:26 Response wrote: to be honest the game seems fairly balanced to me, I haven't come accross one thing that I've said "that's just imba, how can I stop that"
this.
the only thing i've found to be imba is how easy toss is to play. HAH! eat that toss-users :p
but srsly, i have my eye on a unit, but i'm not saying anything yet, cuz i don't have a "training buddy." so far, and i've played a lot of games(100+), nothing seems imba to me.
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