On July 16 2011 21:58 escruting wrote: One question: What does it mean that roaches are expensive on food? Sean said it in a lot of dailies and i dont understand it. They cost the same as all the normal units like the stalkers, marauders, zealots, hydras,etc.
Play Zerg and max on Roaches. Your army will seem incredibly weak and small compared to the max army of a Protoss or Terran, or even a Zerg who has more Tech. Sure its a lot of roaches, but they are Roaches, and cannot kill Voidrays no matter how hard they try. If you look at all the Zerg units there are, only one costs more than 2 food, and its the Ultralisk which happens to cost 6 food. Every other Zerg unit costs 2 or 1 supply (I'm not sure if Broodlords are 2 food or actually 4 can someone help me?). So out of these groups of units which do you prefer?
60 roaches
40 Roaches 10 Hydras 10 Infestors
They cost the same amount of food, but the 2nd group should always beat the first because of 1. 60 Roaches cannot get enough surface area to fire all at once 2. Tech from any race pretty much stomps out Roaches once you reach whatever critical amount of tech units you need to stave off the Roach invasion.
I think what it comes down to is that Roaches are great at winning early game fights for Zerg, but they are a very low tier unit that can't handle a lot of Tech coming from Tier 2 or higher. So they are really really good at certain points in the game, and can be equally as bad at certain points later in the game. Which makes it really easy to just make a ton and think you are doing the right thing. Then your stuck with a bunch of useless Roaches.
I don't know if that helped ^. I think it did ugh.
"What this means is that when comparing supplies between 2 players, the Zerg going mass-Roach will typically have a higher supply, even though he may not have a stronger army. Consequently, maxing out with Roaches is cheaper than with most other units, but it will generally give you a weaker maxed army." I really liked this from Rannasha
Well guys, thank you for your replies. But i meant head to head battles, without blink or colossus or all that things you said. 1 roach kills 1 stalker in a head to head battle without micro. 10 roaches kill 10 stalkers. Maybe with more than 40 roaches its not the same way. But my question was more directed to low or mid sized armies, especially on the early-mid game.
I hope i'm not starting a balance debate on the day9 daily thread, if so i'm sorry and please dont continue with this debate.
if you get 3000 resources worth of roaches it'll be a (pulling number out of my ass here) 60 food army, whilst if you spend the same amount of resources on a protoss army, it'll be smaller in food cost (say 40 or sth) - hence, "expensive on food"
On July 16 2011 22:32 escruting wrote: Well guys, thank you for your replies. But i meant head to head battles, without blink or colossus or all that things you said. 1 roach kills 1 stalker in a head to head battle without micro. 10 roaches kill 10 stalkers. Maybe with more than 40 roaches its not the same way. But my question was more directed to low or mid sized armies, especially on the early-mid game.
I hope i'm not starting a balance debate on the day9 daily thread, if so i'm sorry and please dont continue with this debate.
On July 16 2011 22:32 escruting wrote: Well guys, thank you for your replies. But i meant head to head battles, without blink or colossus or all that things you said. 1 roach kills 1 stalker in a head to head battle without micro. 10 roaches kill 10 stalkers. Maybe with more than 40 roaches its not the same way. But my question was more directed to low or mid sized armies, especially on the early-mid game.
I hope i'm not starting a balance debate on the day9 daily thread, if so i'm sorry and please dont continue with this debate.
1 roach doesnt kill 1 stalker
uhh, what?
last time i checked, roaches > stalker in term of cost efficiency
We don't need to fight about that kind of stuff here, if you really want to know I think Day[9] would encourage us all to find out on our own by experience. Its pretty easy to find out on your own if you have someone to micro against.
I would say that Stalkers are good vs Roaches, but its very situational.
Edit: Post Below me is really good too. Yeah they cost less and are easier to get than all the other Zerg units that are 2 or more food.
On July 16 2011 22:32 escruting wrote: Well guys, thank you for your replies. But i meant head to head battles, without blink or colossus or all that things you said. 1 roach kills 1 stalker in a head to head battle without micro. 10 roaches kill 10 stalkers. Maybe with more than 40 roaches its not the same way. But my question was more directed to low or mid sized armies, especially on the early-mid game.
I hope i'm not starting a balance debate on the day9 daily thread, if so i'm sorry and please dont continue with this debate.
1 roach doesnt kill 1 stalker
uhh, what?
last time i checked, roaches > stalker in term of cost efficiency
I don't think cost efficiency means what you think it does.
His statement that one roach doesn't kill one stalker is correct.
Cost efficiency also is pretty hard to judge. Micro'd stalkers will be even without blink with roaches and much more efficient with blink. Then borrow comes into play, upgrades, micro of both players...
The reason day9 says that roaches are heavy on supply is that they are infact pretty cost efficient, but cost inefficient on supply.
On July 16 2011 22:32 escruting wrote: Well guys, thank you for your replies. But i meant head to head battles, without blink or colossus or all that things you said. 1 roach kills 1 stalker in a head to head battle without micro. 10 roaches kill 10 stalkers. Maybe with more than 40 roaches its not the same way. But my question was more directed to low or mid sized armies, especially on the early-mid game.
I hope i'm not starting a balance debate on the day9 daily thread, if so i'm sorry and please dont continue with this debate.
The thing is it's easy to be up 30-50 supply against a Protoss if you go pure roach but Protoss will still be able to hold because of his power-units (read: cost-effective units) like the immortal and colossus in conjunction with sentries. Protoss units have a good synergy and you should always aim to build up a good unit composition based on what Zerg is doing. You can't just mass up 1 unit as Protoss unless you go for a very specific timing or have a very good reason to, like having an advantage. If you don't have any sort of tech against mass roach you can't move out because they will just overrun you.
Roaches will always be food-expensive no matter how long the game is going. They have an advantage as long as Protoss has no tech units nearby or skipped upgrades. Another thing is you can find your low-to-mid-sized armies even in the lategame when Zerg keeps hurling units at the Protoss in various places like attack the 3rd with ~16 roaches and drop the main with the same amount and have the rest ready to attack the natural. Now Protoss needs to decide how he wants to split his units or lose a lot and if he makes a mistake you can punish him for it. Meanwhile you're able to tech and to take some more bases and prepare a cost-effective unit composition.
edit: Forgot to mention that roaches work best in low or middleish numbers because of their range. Their range is also what makes them cost-ineffective in maxed vs maxed battles unless you somehow get a giant arc on your opponent's army.
On July 17 2011 06:14 ampson wrote: Has day9 ever done a daily on Go0dy style play? If not, he needs to.
With all due respect to Go0dy, it is preety simple. ^_^;
It's actually not, there are a ton of small things that add up to make it work. GoOdy's macro is pretty bad, and his multitasking isn't great, but he's an absolute genius when it comes to tank placement and control.
Dear DAY9, I am a fan of yours, I was such an incredible noob when starting to play, then learning something I get better at this game, but I was still a really fail player, until I knew about you, and you changed my life XD (at least in SC2)
I can't think of other person better than you at analyzing games, so I have a special request, I want to beg you please to cast a game, it is a special one, because of this:
My server is actually LA (LatinoAmérica), and it will be merged with NA because there are not much people, also the best players of LA started in NA or moved there after the first BlizzCon, (players like Killer, Major, Fenix, Capoch, etc)
Being that the "problem", our Grand Master league is a crap league, with players like the one on the replay I will be linking below
Please if you can, watch it and tell me honestly if is there any way, a horrible handless player like that could be in the highest league of SC2
Quick question: what was the book that Day[9] mentioned in one of his dailies? It dealt with playing to win, and was part of a discussion of how you can refine a strategy until you reach a "peak of a mountain", and there are other "mountains" that are higher up, representing better strategies?
If anybody remembers off the top of their head, it would be great to not have to search through all the dailies for the book.
it didn't happen yesterday, he was having internet problems (I'm assuming by funday monday you mean monobattles with fans, because yesterday was sunday and today is monday).
Update I'm just outrageously sick. I puked and it shot OUT MY NOSE. What in the HELL. I didn't even know that was possible lol. My sinus is all burny now. Hopefully I'll recover in time to do some dailies later this week. Regardless, keep in mind that EUROPE WEEK is after this week!! All dailies will be early in da mornin :D.
EPT
