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On September 27 2009 05:31 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 05:01 Tsagacity wrote:On September 27 2009 04:50 Amph wrote:
archon now cause 70 damage+splash, i feel strange that they can't counter muta, maybe your opponent do not has a good micro... No amount of micro is going to make your archon as mobile as a mutalisk. Also, 70 damage? Where did you hear that? in broodwar a player with an archon can always hit your muta at least one time...and with 70 damage you need just one blow to make them withdraw... What are you talking about? A good zerg can run in circles around an archon all he wants.
They're not talking about a straight up muta vs. archon fight, they're saying an archon doesn't do much to protect the whole base.
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On September 27 2009 05:31 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 05:01 Tsagacity wrote:On September 27 2009 04:50 Amph wrote:
archon now cause 70 damage+splash, i feel strange that they can't counter muta, maybe your opponent do not has a good micro... No amount of micro is going to make your archon as mobile as a mutalisk. Also, 70 damage? Where did you hear that? in broodwar a player with an archon can always hit your muta at least one time...and with 70 damage you need just one blow to make them withdraw... stats are from sc2pod
SC2pod's stats say Archons deal 50 damage, plus 10 damage vs. biological, or 60 damage per hit against mutas. That's a ton of damage, but not quite 70.
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ok, but i think one archon can do AT LEAST one hit...If you continue to tell me no, then go watch some progamers vod...and i remember you, that in bw muta are more effective in terms of micro...
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On September 27 2009 05:53 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 05:31 Amph wrote:On September 27 2009 05:01 Tsagacity wrote:On September 27 2009 04:50 Amph wrote:
archon now cause 70 damage+splash, i feel strange that they can't counter muta, maybe your opponent do not has a good micro... No amount of micro is going to make your archon as mobile as a mutalisk. Also, 70 damage? Where did you hear that? in broodwar a player with an archon can always hit your muta at least one time...and with 70 damage you need just one blow to make them withdraw... stats are from sc2pod SC2pod's stats say Archons deal 50 damage, plus 10 damage vs. biological, or 60 damage per hit against mutas. That's a ton of damage, but not quite 70.
no... read well it's 2x25+10 each attack
so...
it's not (2x25)+10, but (1x25)+10 + (1x25)+10...
and i cannot believe that , the archon cannot hit once...
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On September 27 2009 05:53 Amph wrote:
ok, but i think one archon can do AT LEAST one hit...If you continue to tell me no, then go watch some progamers vod...and i remember you, that in bw muta are more effective in terms of micro... There's no "think" to this. It's a fact that mutalisks are significantly more mobile than archons. The only way an archon catches mutalisks is through zerg error.On September 27 2009 05:55 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 05:53 Zato-1 wrote:On September 27 2009 05:31 Amph wrote:On September 27 2009 05:01 Tsagacity wrote:On September 27 2009 04:50 Amph wrote:
archon now cause 70 damage+splash, i feel strange that they can't counter muta, maybe your opponent do not has a good micro... No amount of micro is going to make your archon as mobile as a mutalisk. Also, 70 damage? Where did you hear that? in broodwar a player with an archon can always hit your muta at least one time...and with 70 damage you need just one blow to make them withdraw... stats are from sc2pod SC2pod's stats say Archons deal 50 damage, plus 10 damage vs. biological, or 60 damage per hit against mutas. That's a ton of damage, but not quite 70. no... read well it's 2x25+10 each attack so... it's not (2x25)+10, but (1x25)+10 + (1x25)+10... and i cannot believe that , the archon cannot hit once... In standard math, multiplication is calculated before addition unless parentheses specify addition first.
2 x 25 + 10 is the same as (2 x 25) +10
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On September 27 2009 05:55 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 05:53 Zato-1 wrote:On September 27 2009 05:31 Amph wrote:On September 27 2009 05:01 Tsagacity wrote:On September 27 2009 04:50 Amph wrote:
archon now cause 70 damage+splash, i feel strange that they can't counter muta, maybe your opponent do not has a good micro... No amount of micro is going to make your archon as mobile as a mutalisk. Also, 70 damage? Where did you hear that? in broodwar a player with an archon can always hit your muta at least one time...and with 70 damage you need just one blow to make them withdraw... stats are from sc2pod SC2pod's stats say Archons deal 50 damage, plus 10 damage vs. biological, or 60 damage per hit against mutas. That's a ton of damage, but not quite 70. no... read well it's 2x25+10 each attack so... it's not (2x25)+10, but (1x25)+10 + (1x25)+10... 2 x 25 + 10 is the same as (2 x 25) +10 and i cannot believe that , the archon cannot hit once...
Actually, it's 2x25 + 2x5. In other words, 2x(25+5), or 60.
Look at Marauders, they work the same way: Two hits, 6 damage apiece. Against armored, it's two hits, (6+6) damage for each hit. Same deal with Vikings with their air to air attack, Thors with their ground to air attack, Reapers and so on. You're just reading the stats wrong.
On September 27 2009 06:05 Tsagacity wrote:
In standard math, multiplication is calculated before addition unless parentheses specify addition first.
+1
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i speak about error...we are human so we make errors, you can't tell me that you will always use muta in the best way, and ALWAYS kill the archon without taking a blow from it...
per Zato-1 ..yeah, i was wrong, but they always have a uber 60 damage... two hit and bye bye MULTIPLE-muta
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On September 27 2009 06:11 Amph wrote:
i speak about error...we are human so we make errors, you can't tell me that you will always use muta in the best way, and ALWAYS kill the archon without taking a blow from it...
Well that would contradict your original point that an archon's inability to stop harass might be due to poor protoss micro.
On September 27 2009 04:50 Amph wrote:
archon now cause 70 damage+splash, i feel strange that they can't counter muta, maybe your opponent do not has a good micro... Also, in examples where good players do get caught by an archon, they're usually being very aggressive with the mutalisks in attempts to try to take out cannons or probes, valuable targets that the archon is typically very close to. The op talks about harassing other, easier targets.
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On September 27 2009 06:11 Amph wrote:
per Zato-1 ..yeah, i was wrong, but they always have a uber 60 damage... two hit and bye bye MULTIPLE-muta
I agree, Archons will completely tear up large muta flocks if they manage to get some good hits in- without Corsairs, Psi Storm and Archons seem to me like the way to go against a Zerg who's massing up mutas in an ever-growing control group. Sure, mutas can dodge an Archon or two, but if the Zerg has huge amounts of mutas, Protoss can get four or more Archons around his bases, and it becomes that much harder to dodge them all properly. If gas is a huge deal, you can choose to spend 200 gas per Archon rather than 300 by morphing DTs instead of HTs.
EDIT: Actually, it's 250 gas per archon if you use DTs, their gas cost seems to have gone up to 125 ><
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On September 27 2009 06:18 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 06:11 Amph wrote:
i speak about error...we are human so we make errors, you can't tell me that you will always use muta in the best way, and ALWAYS kill the archon without taking a blow from it...
Well that would contradict your original point that an archon's inability to stop harass might be due to poor protoss micro. Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 04:50 Amph wrote:
archon now cause 70 damage+splash, i feel strange that they can't counter muta, maybe your opponent do not has a good micro... Also, in examples where good players do get caught by an archon, they're usually being very aggressive with the mutalisks in attempts to try to take out cannons or probes, valuable targets that the archon is typically very close to. The op talks about harassing other, easier targets.
it's much easy to make an error when you attack with muta, instead with an archon when you defend yourself is a bit harder.. anyway i do not contradict myself, they are both valid
the muta owner make an error therefore muta get damaged
the opponent make good micro therefore muta get affected from archon
the fact that the owner of the archon has a bad micro does not imply that the muta's owner can't make an error...
where is the contradiction?
for the second part:
i can understand that, but does not always go in this way, something you are forced to blow hard target
one thing is to talk about the game and one thing is playing the game
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On September 27 2009 00:14 Sharp-eYe wrote:
why didnt anyone write about Vikings T_T. I thought the Transforming ability from Air - Ground would be abused so much.
I think Blizzard should just bring back the defiler. Even for lore purposes the defiler sounds better (because its their only badass magic creature).
I used them in my 3v1 game. (I posted battle reports in some sc2 thread after blizzcon) Basically they are good but mutas are better. They can hit and run the muta but they easily get overrun by a stack of mutas. They seemed pretty equally matched as far as skirmishes went between them though. And if you have like 5+ and you are harassing, you can just convert real fast, focus down a few workers and then convert back and fly away. They harass pretty well. But they don't do good damage to canons or spines.
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On September 27 2009 05:53 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 05:31 Amph wrote:On September 27 2009 05:01 Tsagacity wrote:On September 27 2009 04:50 Amph wrote:
archon now cause 70 damage+splash, i feel strange that they can't counter muta, maybe your opponent do not has a good micro... No amount of micro is going to make your archon as mobile as a mutalisk. Also, 70 damage? Where did you hear that? in broodwar a player with an archon can always hit your muta at least one time...and with 70 damage you need just one blow to make them withdraw... stats are from sc2pod SC2pod's stats say Archons deal 50 damage, plus 10 damage vs. biological, or 60 damage per hit against mutas. That's a ton of damage, but not quite 70.
sc2armory gives the same stats but I have to ask them how much updated are their stats, I remember that Archons were supposed to get about +20 bonus for some amount of time right after summoning so it can be mistake done by both sources?
sc2armory also states Archons can be done from mix of Templars or DTs alone and I'm not sure if it wasn't changed to old HT merging method? Zatic?
On September 27 2009 04:29 zatic wrote:
Ghosts don't work against muta, too expensive to get enough.
I was thinking of them as support units staying behind Marines and avoiding direct hits... but getting both Merc Compound for Stimpacks and Ghost Academy does look expensive :/
Wait, I play Zerg >.<
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On September 27 2009 06:41 beetlelisk wrote:
sc2armory also states Archons can be done from mix of Templars or DTs alone and I'm not sure if it wasn't changed to old HT merging method? Zatic?
Pretty sure Archons can be formed by merging 2 HTs, 2 DTs, or 1 HT with 1 DT.
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The immortal wasn’t viable at all in the Blizzcon build
I really disagree with this. As I used most of my builds centering around this unit at blizzcon.
I highly viable pvt build I used, involved a one base 1 gate 2 robo push. Basically robos take the place of your gateways, its vulnerable to an early rush but its extremely powerful once the 2nd robo is up.
Its a change in the way protoss works, and I really like this change. I actually talked later on in the day to the dev that was responsible for this change and I felt not only was it much needed considering the strength of the immortal, but also great fun to change up the way protoss plays. I might not have explained myself very well but I'd be glad to elaborate if someone doesn't understand.
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On September 27 2009 06:59 Archerofaiur wrote:
Elaborate
I agree!
I really wonder if online stats are correct because if they are Immortals would just rape armored units
On September 27 2009 06:45 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 06:41 beetlelisk wrote:
sc2armory also states Archons can be done from mix of Templars or DTs alone and I'm not sure if it wasn't changed to old HT merging method? Zatic? Pretty sure Archons can be formed by merging 2 HTs, 2 DTs, or 1 HT with 1 DT.
hmm again internet confirms  but DTs cost 125/125 now? and have 40HP 80Shields?
Well last thing good for Protoss since shields aren't going to take full damage anymore and are supposed to regenerate faster outside of battle right?
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Zurich15364 Posts
On September 27 2009 05:17 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I asked this before and only CharlieMurphy answered so far. How APM intensive is the game currently? Also, did you play any mirror matchups (ZvZ, TvT) and if so, how did they turn out?
I played a couple of ZvZ which were all very boring. Just make lings and get speed. Whoever can make more wins. PvP is pretty comparable to BW PvP except that there are no reavers.
From previous SC2 events I know that TvT is a lot of fun though. At Blizzcon I think I only played one TvT on the map from BR#3 against Chill where we both floated our raxx over to the other guy and tried to surprise with marines in the main. That was fun. He won in the end with a tank drop. A-moving marines against tanks is not a good idea haha. They clump up perfectly and 2 tank shots kill an entire group.
The game is WAY less APM demanding. I can only guess a number but I would say I played at about 100 at Blizzcon, probably less. Sometimes you just want to spam to keep yourself alert.
Amph: You are the most ignorant poster on this forum. Every of your few posts is wrong and completely ignores what has been already said. Please reconsider your posting.
No, in BW you can not always hit muta with an archon. You can dance muta perfectly fine around an archon, and even kill it without getting hit - same in SC2.
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On September 27 2009 07:11 zatic wrote:
The game is WAY less APM demanding. I can only guess a number but I would say I played at about 100 at Blizzcon, probably less. Sometimes you just want to spam to keep yourself alert.
A common theory is that you can use all that "free time" to better micro, do multiple attacks, etc...
Did you find yourself doing that or does it now work like that?
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Zurich15364 Posts
On September 27 2009 06:50 Retsukage wrote:I really disagree with this. As I used most of my builds centering around this unit at blizzcon. I highly viable pvt build I used, involved a one base 1 gate 2 robo push. Basically robos take the place of your gateways, its vulnerable to an early rush but its extremely powerful once the 2nd robo is up. Its a change in the way protoss works, and I really like this change. I actually talked later on in the day to the dev that was responsible for this change and I felt not only was it much needed considering the strength of the immortal, but also great fun to change up the way protoss plays. I might not have explained myself very well but I'd be glad to elaborate if someone doesn't understand.
Any 1 gate tech build dies hopelessly against Terran infantry. Yes, it will work if T goes for straight tanks, but none of the T I played did that, it was always marines / marauder, which would completely rape a 1 gate 2 robo build. I tried exactly that to get immortals because they used to be so strong. And I just got 1 immortal out when I was overrun by 15 marines. The tech is just too late and they take too long to survive on 1 gate until then.
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Zatic have you seen any Disruptors, BCs or Carriers in use?
Can Nydus Worms go back underground?
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EPT
