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On September 27 2009 07:11 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 05:17 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I asked this before and only CharlieMurphy answered so far. How APM intensive is the game currently? Also, did you play any mirror matchups (ZvZ, TvT) and if so, how did they turn out? The game is WAY less APM demanding. I can only guess a number but I would say I played at about 100 at Blizzcon, probably less. Sometimes you just want to spam to keep yourself alert.
This is worrying. If the game is no more APM intensive then before, it means that the macro mechanics in essence failed to achieve their purpose.
In any case, thank you for the response. Hopefully, something can be done about this.
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i knew reapers as a unit would essentially become useless as a unit with a solid purpose. i knew reapers would become a "cheese unit." the idea was good, but in a RTS with high skill level involved there is no room for trivial "tactical" units. it really is a silly concept. in game such as SC where ones mind must be exhausted to its full potential, where one finger slip can instantly lose you the game, there is no room for such units.
if its not rock paper scissors, scrap the unit already.
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On September 27 2009 08:05 Rebuke[SkyNet] wrote:
i knew reapers as a unit would essentially become useless as a unit with a solid purpose. i knew reapers would become a "cheese unit." the idea was good, but in a RTS with high skill level involved there is no room for trivial "tactical" units. it really is a silly concept. in game such as SC where ones mind must be exhausted to its full potential, where one finger slip can instantly lose you the game, there is no room for such units.
if its not rock paper scissors, scrap the unit already.
After actually reading 1 of your posts and those quotes
On September 27 2009 07:25 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 05:43 onmach wrote:
This rebuke guy has been trolling multiple threads. Could someone ban him already? Seconded. Back when I visited the battle.net forums fairly frequently in June, this guy had several new troll threads a week in which all he did was talk about how much better he is than everyone else.
I agree, you should be banned.
If you are not trolling explain what makes Reapers trivial. You self-contradict yourself in your own post, you bash a unit that adds factor of uncertainty and requires different care than other Terran units -> more causes to get "ones mind exhausted" and I mean harassment possibilities alone this far.
I can for 1 thing very clearly see D8 charges thrown in regular battles, after opponent deflects harassment for good so all that is left is to just keep Reapers that survived with main army.
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Pretty natural to me that your APM is way less in a game you are not as familiar with. You have to spend more time thinking about what to do, instead of actually doing stuff.
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Even when just playing a new map in SC1 your APM drops significantly. I don't expect anyone to be playing with anything even resembling high apm, not even if they've clocked up a couple of days play with it.
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On September 27 2009 07:11 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 05:17 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I asked this before and only CharlieMurphy answered so far. How APM intensive is the game currently? Also, did you play any mirror matchups (ZvZ, TvT) and if so, how did they turn out? Amph: You are the most ignorant poster on this forum. Every of your few posts is wrong and completely ignores what has been already said. Please reconsider your posting. No, in BW you can not always hit muta with an archon. You can dance muta perfectly fine around an archon, and even kill it without getting hit - same in SC2.
yeah and you are the most stupid..., in BW progamers game, AT LEAST one time the archon hit some muta, it's impossible that so many muta dance around it, and never get shooted, i refused to believe to this...go watch some pro match
and this if we counting 1 archon, if there are 2 or 3 you are screwed, don't tell me that with 2-3 archon you can dance PERFECTLY and kill them all, without losing even a muta(i assume that you can not even touch one, that your stupid muta fall like flies)
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Sweden33719 Posts
You don't need to kill archons with mutas to be honest. Just ignore the slow-bastard and rape his probes ;p
Honestly, the biggest problem for Archons in defending vs mutas has always been how hard of a time they have moving through mineral lines / moving between buildings (coupled with their poor range). If the pathing has been significantly improved, then I could see them being more effective, as I somehow doubt you'll be able to perform the type of muta micro that you can in SC1.
They should give archons maelstrom back :D!!!
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Zurich15361 Posts
On September 27 2009 07:33 beetlelisk wrote:
Zatic have you seen any Disruptors, BCs or Carriers in use?
Can Nydus Worms go back underground?
Saw disruptors often yes. They are a fun unit but really overhyped imho. Their attack is not that strong and the force fields very situational. but it's a good unit. Didn't see or use a carrier or cruiser at BC.
Nydus doesn't "go" anywhere, you just place an exit where ever you want.
On September 27 2009 07:17 Archerofaiur wrote:
A common theory is that you can use all that "free time" to better micro, do multiple attacks, etc...
Did you find yourself doing that or does it now work like that?
You have less to do with macro, definitely. Personally I found myself kinda spacing out and looking at the animations, not overly microeing.
On September 27 2009 14:15 JohannesH wrote:
Pretty natural to me that your APM is way less in a game you are not as familiar with. You have to spend more time thinking about what to do, instead of actually doing stuff.
I don't think this is a major factor. The game is less mechanically demanding, you can see that without having played it once. Plus it's not like you sit there and start wondering what is going on, the game plays very much like BW.
Keep in mind too that high APM is irrelevant. I was able to macro and spend my money in this new game with comparatively low APM, which is all that counts.
On September 27 2009 21:20 FrozenArbiter wrote:
You don't need to kill archons with mutas to be honest. Just ignore the slow-bastard and rape his probes ;p
Which is what I said in my original post. You keep dodging them and keep adding more and more muta until you can fly into the min line and take out the cannons without taking losses. The point is that there are no mobile hard counters that muta can't run away from.
But even with definitely improved pathing you can still get hits off on an archon without getting hit yourself.
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On September 27 2009 19:29 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 07:11 zatic wrote:On September 27 2009 05:17 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I asked this before and only CharlieMurphy answered so far. How APM intensive is the game currently? Also, did you play any mirror matchups (ZvZ, TvT) and if so, how did they turn out? Amph: You are the most ignorant poster on this forum. Every of your few posts is wrong and completely ignores what has been already said. Please reconsider your posting. No, in BW you can not always hit muta with an archon. You can dance muta perfectly fine around an archon, and even kill it without getting hit - same in SC2. yeah and you are the most stupid...
Well, looks like someone here's asking for a ban.
Amph, I suggest you read TL.net's 10 commandments. While it is acceptable to behave like a dick and insult veteran members on other internet forums, it is not acceptable here. zatic is a valued and respected member of TL, and he's most definitely not stupid.
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Could someone tell me in what situation you would rather built lurkers than ultralisks once at t3?
little off topic:
Since i have no beta key and cannot wait to play sc2, i would like to know how fast/good inofficial wc3 servers have been? =)
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8751 Posts
On September 27 2009 19:29 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 07:11 zatic wrote:On September 27 2009 05:17 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I asked this before and only CharlieMurphy answered so far. How APM intensive is the game currently? Also, did you play any mirror matchups (ZvZ, TvT) and if so, how did they turn out? Amph: You are the most ignorant poster on this forum. Every of your few posts is wrong and completely ignores what has been already said. Please reconsider your posting. No, in BW you can not always hit muta with an archon. You can dance muta perfectly fine around an archon, and even kill it without getting hit - same in SC2. yeah and you are the most stupid..., in BW progamers game, AT LEAST one time the archon hit some muta, it's impossible that so many muta dance around it, and never get shooted, i refused to believe to this...go watch some pro match and this if we counting 1 archon, if there are 2 or 3 you are screwed, don't tell me that with 2-3 archon you can dance PERFECTLY and kill them all, without losing even a muta(i assume that you can not even touch one, that your stupid muta fall like flies)
In BW:
If the archons are given an attack command on the mutas, the archons can die without attacking once because of muta micro.
If the protoss player micros the archons by giving move commands in unexpected directions, the archon can get in position to attack and will hit the mutas when commanded. But usually there are ground units, buildings, minerals and impassable terrain in the path of the archons, so it is not possible to move the archons in unexpected directions.
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On September 27 2009 23:02 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 19:29 Amph wrote:On September 27 2009 07:11 zatic wrote:On September 27 2009 05:17 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I asked this before and only CharlieMurphy answered so far. How APM intensive is the game currently? Also, did you play any mirror matchups (ZvZ, TvT) and if so, how did they turn out? Amph: You are the most ignorant poster on this forum. Every of your few posts is wrong and completely ignores what has been already said. Please reconsider your posting. No, in BW you can not always hit muta with an archon. You can dance muta perfectly fine around an archon, and even kill it without getting hit - same in SC2. yeah and you are the most stupid... Well, looks like someone here's asking for a ban. Amph, I suggest you read TL.net's 10 commandments. While it is acceptable to behave like a dick and insult veteran members on other internet forums, it is not acceptable here. zatic is a valued and respected member of TL, and he's most definitely not stupid.
so he can call me a ignorant and i can't call him idiot...whoa! nice commandaments...ignorant for me is an insult, by the way
On September 28 2009 01:35 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 19:29 Amph wrote:On September 27 2009 07:11 zatic wrote:On September 27 2009 05:17 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I asked this before and only CharlieMurphy answered so far. How APM intensive is the game currently? Also, did you play any mirror matchups (ZvZ, TvT) and if so, how did they turn out? Amph: You are the most ignorant poster on this forum. Every of your few posts is wrong and completely ignores what has been already said. Please reconsider your posting. No, in BW you can not always hit muta with an archon. You can dance muta perfectly fine around an archon, and even kill it without getting hit - same in SC2. yeah and you are the most stupid..., in BW progamers game, AT LEAST one time the archon hit some muta, it's impossible that so many muta dance around it, and never get shooted, i refused to believe to this...go watch some pro match and this if we counting 1 archon, if there are 2 or 3 you are screwed, don't tell me that with 2-3 archon you can dance PERFECTLY and kill them all, without losing even a muta(i assume that you can not even touch one, that your stupid muta fall like flies) In BW: If the archons are given an attack command on the mutas, the archons can die without attacking once because of muta micro. If the protoss player micros the archons by giving move commands in unexpected directions, the archon can get in position to attack and will hit the mutas when commanded. But usually there are ground units, buildings, minerals and impassable terrain in the path of the archons, so it is not possible to move the archons in unexpected directions.
dancing around archon is not that easy as you think, is much more easy for the archon's owner to hit the muta(when there are 2-3 archon at least, i understand that with one archon become easy to dodge and kill it, but with 2-3 is much more hard, trust me...)
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On September 28 2009 02:20 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 23:02 Zato-1 wrote:On September 27 2009 19:29 Amph wrote:On September 27 2009 07:11 zatic wrote:On September 27 2009 05:17 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I asked this before and only CharlieMurphy answered so far. How APM intensive is the game currently? Also, did you play any mirror matchups (ZvZ, TvT) and if so, how did they turn out? Amph: You are the most ignorant poster on this forum. Every of your few posts is wrong and completely ignores what has been already said. Please reconsider your posting. No, in BW you can not always hit muta with an archon. You can dance muta perfectly fine around an archon, and even kill it without getting hit - same in SC2. yeah and you are the most stupid... Well, looks like someone here's asking for a ban. Amph, I suggest you read TL.net's 10 commandments. While it is acceptable to behave like a dick and insult veteran members on other internet forums, it is not acceptable here. zatic is a valued and respected member of TL, and he's most definitely not stupid. so he can call me a ignorant and i can't call him idiot...whoa! nice commandaments...ignorant for me is an insult, by the way Show nested quote +On September 28 2009 01:35 Liquid`NonY wrote:On September 27 2009 19:29 Amph wrote:On September 27 2009 07:11 zatic wrote:On September 27 2009 05:17 Tom Phoenix wrote:
I asked this before and only CharlieMurphy answered so far. How APM intensive is the game currently? Also, did you play any mirror matchups (ZvZ, TvT) and if so, how did they turn out? Amph: You are the most ignorant poster on this forum. Every of your few posts is wrong and completely ignores what has been already said. Please reconsider your posting. No, in BW you can not always hit muta with an archon. You can dance muta perfectly fine around an archon, and even kill it without getting hit - same in SC2. yeah and you are the most stupid..., in BW progamers game, AT LEAST one time the archon hit some muta, it's impossible that so many muta dance around it, and never get shooted, i refused to believe to this...go watch some pro match and this if we counting 1 archon, if there are 2 or 3 you are screwed, don't tell me that with 2-3 archon you can dance PERFECTLY and kill them all, without losing even a muta(i assume that you can not even touch one, that your stupid muta fall like flies) In BW: If the archons are given an attack command on the mutas, the archons can die without attacking once because of muta micro. If the protoss player micros the archons by giving move commands in unexpected directions, the archon can get in position to attack and will hit the mutas when commanded. But usually there are ground units, buildings, minerals and impassable terrain in the path of the archons, so it is not possible to move the archons in unexpected directions. dancing around archon is not that easy as you think, is much more easy for the archon's owner to hit the muta(when there are 2-3 archon at least, i understand that with one archon become easy to dodge and kill it, but with 2-3 is much more hard, trust me...) The guy you're talking to spent part of his life playing with progamers in Korea.
I think everyone here is allowed to call you ignorant if you're going to try to tell a former progamer to "trust you" on how muta/archon micro works.
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Zurich15361 Posts
On September 28 2009 02:20 Amph wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2009 01:35 Liquid`NonY wrote:
In BW:
If the archons are given an attack command on the mutas, the archons can die without attacking once because of muta micro.
If the protoss player micros the archons by giving move commands in unexpected directions, the archon can get in position to attack and will hit the mutas when commanded. But usually there are ground units, buildings, minerals and impassable terrain in the path of the archons, so it is not possible to move the archons in unexpected directions. dancing around archon is not that easy as you think, is much more easy for the archon's owner to hit the muta(when there are 2-3 archon at least, i understand that with one archon become easy to dodge and kill it, but with 2-3 is much more hard, trust me...)
You tell him!
Seriously Amph, stop posting nonsense. Every one of your posts has either been blatantly wrong, ignorant of what has been discussed previously, or, predominately, both.
If you don't like the commandments I suggest you leave this site. Kennigit is merciless.
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you must not play on east much
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On September 27 2009 22:40 zatic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2009 07:33 beetlelisk wrote:
Can Nydus Worms go back underground? Nydus doesn't "go" anywhere, you just place an exit where ever you want.
I mean yeah I know it works pretty much like Nydus Canal in BW but wanted to confirm it can be placed only once and can't be moved, new one made in Nydus Network is needed right?
What was the animation for arriving Worm, was it still cocoon? Is creep still needed to be able to place it?
Did dropping creep by Overlords cost anything, was there any prerequisite for it?
BTW, I read Warp Rays did terrible terrible damage again but were most effective against pretty slow or stationary targets?
Could they follow their targets shooting at the same time?
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Anyone at Blizzcon tried the Mutalisk stacking thing? If you can control more than 12 units in a group, imagine how much damage you can do with Mutalisks? You can basically pretty hold position, let the damage spread out and destroy a whole ground force!
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Well I was lucky enough to actually play starcraft 2 at blizzcon (a lot), so I feel I should let everyone know what I thought. I ended up playing over 100 games by the end. In all, I only lost 2 out of 3 to someone once. First of all, I LOVED zerg, by far the most powerful race of any of them. I personally felt that terran was the weakest, however I am a horrible SC1 terran player so that may have played a part in it.
The key to owning as zerg (as most others have said), is the 1 hatch -> queen build. My most common build order would be 10 pool, (while waiting for pool to finish) overlord, as soon as the pool finishes 6 lings and then start building a queen. Your lings hit the opponents base and you get to scout. (the really nice thing about this build is how perfectly the food works out, you get exactly enough to build the queen and the 6 lings without an additional overlord).
If they are teching, or FE, or anything other then spamming low tier units, just hit em hard with lings, especially on that first spawn larva. When you got 6 lings initially, and then hit them right afterwards with 14 lings EVERYONE dies.
If they wall in or look to be creating a lot of low tier units (or like 3+ gateways/raxes), just back off and wait (spawn a 4-6 extra lings, but mostly drones and start going to tier 2 and try to get your natural). If they look like they are going aggressive and not defense try to backstab with the first set of lings, while your others stay at base with some spine crawlers. Spine crawlers a few lings and a queen is plenty to take out any kind of early game aggression.
Assuming you make it to tier 2 (happens a lot against people rushing you), you usually want to hit them hard right as mutas come out. Ideally you should have 2 bases at this point (no more is needed). You want to time your spawn larva when the spire is half done, so that right when it finishes you can hit them with 14 mutas. If they are very smart they will have enough defense at their scv/probe line. (and by enough defense usually means 3+ turrets or cannons at all mineral lines). Pick off what you can, but stop building mutas at this point (late game mutas suck).
After your mutas, just lings and roaches mixed work well. Roaches are freaking cheap! (200 min only no gas), and they are quite good tanks (damage soaks), but they cant hurt anything. Use that nadus canal if you can at this point. Dropping 2-3 in different parts of someones main and there is no way they are going to kill them all before one finishes, then your whole army is in their main. Eventfully ultra owns, but I only got to this point if I was playing around with someone and not finishing them off.
I lost once to someone (won zerg, lost toss and lost zerg). I really want to talk about the last fight. In this case I started as I usually do, but I couldn’t find him (searched almost the whole map), so I figured I would expand and hope for the best. He turned out to be like right next to me, and his siege tanks could hit my expansion from his main, not good. So I tried to transition into mutas, but viking’s are nasty anti-air, and even with corruptors I couldn’t stop his push, ah well.
As to the other races. DTs, HT and tanks are as nasty as ever (even more so with dt’s against zerg). The new banshee rocks! (massive damage, extremely mobile, and cloaks). I wish I had used ghost more. For terran I found it nice to get 2-3 tech labs on raxes early game to get some marauders, use those same tech labs on factories to get tanks, then use the tech labs again to get banshees (adding quite a few viking’s to counter any air we face).
As far as toss goes, warp-in is critical, every build must have it. And if you have it you might as well get a proxy pylon as well. Zealots do well early game, but the meat of a toss army is the stalkers. Throw in an occasional dark templar rush, and then mix with a few HT and archons when they done storming. And you got to go robo at least to get observers. Carriers while strong, take way too long, and warp rays and phoenix’s just don’t do enough damage.
-Obsid
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Zurich15361 Posts
You should check out the previous posts about Zerg here. Glad you felt the same way about them. Can you explain why you stopped making muta? Especially when I managed to inflict just some damage with my initial ~10 muta I would keep adding more and keep attacking. At one point turrets or cannons just won't be of any use against that.
Build-order wise I (and everyone I played with) would go 12 pool -> queen -> larvae, and use that larvae to make lings if needed.
+ Show Spoiler +Over 100 games lol. That would be over 20 hours non-stop play time. The venue wasn't even open that long. I understand though it felt like a 100 to me too but it was probably more like 50.
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+ Show Spoiler +I watched the semi and finals of the sc1 tourney and the exhibition match. I played 2 games of Diablo 3. So in all probably about 15 hours of starcraft 2 (of 18.5 possible). Remember I said games, not matches, so that’s only like 30 different people I played. I spent several games trying out the various races, and different tech. Once I decided on which felt stronger to me, and refined by game at those. I always played one game with my strongest race to start (incase I lose that), and then a game of one of the two weaker races, and if I get to a 3rd game, with my strong race again. Once I had my zerg down my games lasted about 9 min per game (most people tend to lose fairly quickly against 20 ling rush), I would say I ended about 50% of my zerg games in under 5 min. The rest lasted usually about 15 min. It takes 3 minutes to transition from lings to muta (after you get the gas).
Why I stopped going muta, well the only people I didn’t win automatically when I got muta (which happened like 80% of the time when I got mutas) were spending A LOT of resources on anti air stuff (phoenixes, viking’s, corruptors), along with static defense at their mineral lines. When I see that much anti-air, it just makes sense to me not to even try and fight it. Better to attack at what they are weak against.
The key with the new zerg is defiantly to drone until you spike spam units fast with some new tech that they arnt prepared for, spawn larva just makes that strat so powerful.
I’m sorry I didn’t say how many drones I was doing where exactly. I go 10 drones->pool->overlord ->13 drones->queen (and 6 lings)->spawn larva->overlord. It’s the fastest way to get a queen out without cutting drones, with just enough drones, before you need to start saving larva for when the pool finish’s, and just enough food (18 total with 1 overlord).
PS. About roaches, a single roach does about as much damage as a single zergling against non-bio, but costs 8 times as much and 4 times as much supply and is a tier 2 unit. So why use them? They have 4.5 times as much hp, 1 point more armor, and they regen like crazy (somewhere around 30 hp a sec I think or about 1 zerglings hp per sec, and that’s not including the upgrade to make them regen faster). And I hear they can now move while burrowed (although I didn’t try that out). Basically they are the meat shields for the lings, so run them in first.
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