EPT1-Hatch Queen over-reaction, protoss counter - Page 3
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
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dcttr66
United States555 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. no, he's not walling in sc style. it's improved sc2 walling, and it'll be fine...read the other thread that explained it. wait a second, that was this thread. | ||
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Belano
Sweden657 Posts
If the problem is that the T or P can't scout what the Z is doing with their larvae, shouldn't the goal be to control what the Z can make? By that I mean playing aggressive. I understand that it might be difficult as P since you can't take down their ovie with zealots and if you go 2gate the Z will scout it and easily defend. But, could it be viable for T to add a barracks or two after chasing away their scouting ovie and try to go for early pressure to prevent Z from gaining to much of an economical advantage? Chances are I'm completely wrong but hey, just throwing it out there. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:52 Belano wrote: I am by no means an expert or even remotely close to that. But I'm going to just brainstorm anyways. If the problem is that the T or P can't scout what the Z is doing with their larvae, shouldn't the goal be to control what the Z can make? By that I mean playing aggressive. I understand that it might be difficult as P since you can't take down their ovie with zealots and if you go 2gate the Z will scout it and easily defend. But, could it be viable for T to add a barracks or two after chasing away their scouting ovie and try to go for early pressure to prevent Z from gaining to much of an economical advantage? Chances are I'm completely wrong but hey, just throwing it out there. Good luck breaking his Spine Crawlers. He knows you'll do early pressure via ovie, and can still out eco you while fending off your attacks. At that point unless you suicide units you don't know if hes massing up lings or powering up his eco. The imba is the fact you'll always be in the dark, and he'll always be able to counter your early game maneuvers. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
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GranDim
Canada1214 Posts
On September 07 2009 19:51 ViruX wrote: Sounds like rampless maps or maps with wide chokes are not longer an option in SC2 which map be a bit limiting for mapmakers Blizzard might be fine with some match ups forcing maps to be basic during the first expansion. It gives them the opportunity to improve the game depth in the expansions. | ||
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Mastermind
Canada7096 Posts
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_Iron_
Germany2 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:57 decemberscalm wrote: Good luck breaking his Spine Crawlers. He knows you'll do early pressure via ovie, and can still out eco you while fending off your attacks. At that point unless you suicide units you don't know if hes massing up lings or powering up his eco. The imba is the fact you'll always be in the dark, and he'll always be able to counter your early game maneuvers. If you build up your Rax already at 9/10 or 8/10 he won't be able to scout your rush with the ovie before your first marines are out. In most cases he will be first aware of your tactic when your marines and SCVs are already on their way to his base. If he's not playing a very early Pool himself he won't have his Zerglings and Queen out when your Marines arrive. I don't know how fast the Spine Crawler needs to be build but I believe with a good micro you can take it out of the game before it can really prevent the Zerg's Base from damage. So his only chance will be take out the Marines by surrounding them with Drones and Zerglings what can be prevented with SCV blocking. So his only possibilities are insane scouting, awsome Drone micro or playing a very risky early pool tactic himself. I know this is pretty much Theorycraft but I think there's not that that much difference in SC2 early game compared to BW. So disturbing him before he can use his larvae injecting could work. | ||
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bEsT[Alive]
606 Posts
Blizzard might as well hotkeys for different strategic formations while they're at it because the grouping thing is preposterous. Just another reason why other RTS developers screwed the genre over with user friendly UIs. Blizzard was onto something before the rest of them. T_T I, myself would have made minor tweaks to the old one. On September 08 2009 05:13 Mastermind wrote: Why do all these people who played the game for a few days think they know which strategies are viable or overpowered, but the people at Blizzard who's jobs it is to play the game everyday somehow overlooked these huge imbalances? Probably because they're Gaming Developers and not professional RTS players. It would be helpful to have more players like Pillars around for one. I think Blizzard is trying to be too innovative with this one and they're overlooking the small things. This game is trying to live up to an impossible bill. :/ Yes, I'm a huge skeptic. I just cannot wait until the real fun starts. The Beta will have more than enough good players participating to fix things. I'm sure it will go on for several months. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:45 dcttr66 wrote: no, he's not walling in sc style. it's improved sc2 walling, and it'll be fine...read the other thread that explained it. wait a second, that was this thread. Ugh, it's exactly like in SC. In SC, you 2 gate, block your ramp with 2 zealots. In SC2, because the ramps are so much bigger, you 2 gate, but since the buildings are tight, you can block with a zealot there (however you have to get more than 1 zealot because otherwise he can break it so it's identical to SC). Difference is, in SC1 if you 9 pool you hurt your eco to the point where protoss can just eat the loss in scouting and play it safe. In SC2 you have the queen so you don't get hurt in the same way. | ||
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bEsT[Alive]
606 Posts
I understand they want faster games with the macro + mule/warp-in oberlisk/larva injection mechanics, but hell. It's going to take a shitload of time to balance. It took them years to get SC:BW to a good place. Ugh | ||
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DefMatrixUltra
Canada1992 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:39 Chill wrote: The OP completely missed the point of the power of the Queen. It's not that you can get an unstoppable rush, it's that you have unlimited flexibility and deception. If he does 2 Gate wallin you just expand, you dont rush with 6 lings. This is exactly what I was thinking when I read this. Yeah make a zealot wall so you can... ummm... block the first six lings? I never even considered doing a fast rush with a queen build. Reading the larva injection thread, I thought of it more like 3 hatch before pool - except now you already have a pool. I think Karune/David Kim are too used to playing people who aren't up to par with them if this is their actual response. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:39 dcttr66 wrote: you're right. the issue people are having with this whole thing is that the zerg can easily accelerate larva production to compensate for this. i think mostly the protoss players are fearing playing the zerg on even playing field... in fact, for me, zerg was always my number one race...but when it came to zvp...i was much better with protoss...and the primary reason is that the protoss race is better. but sc2 might be more balanced...we can hope. i'm pretty sure the new macro changes are perfect. the protoss get just an extra little oomph to mining effeciency...and terrans get a jolt at an opportune moment...it's their styles, and i think terran scvs always had too much of an edge with that 50 percent extra hp with in sc2 with mules not being quite as awesome as the protoss or zerg macro mechanics...it'll be fair. Protoss is definitely not better than zerg (in SC1). At low levels protoss is far easier though, because your units have a ton of HP, but throughout the last... 8 or so years the Z>P>T>Z argument has held true. I'd still say the game is balanced, because the differences are *soooooo* small, but statistically it's true. I'm more or less certain melee units will always be able to attack other units standing on a ramp, but that's not part of the problem - the zerg will see everything you do until you get stalkers (overlord in your base), while you wont be able to keep your probe alive due to how fast the lings are. So now yes, you could send your zealots out to try to gain some intel that way - but the zerg will know, he'll be able to react precisely to what you are doing, you won't catch him unprepared. I would say that the perhaps most important skill in PvZ, is the ability to keep your scouting worker alive. Whenever it dies too soon, you will feel terrible, because that means you are flipping a coin when deciding how you want to proceed - and that's not good. Especially when the zerg can still scout you and change his mind, making your coinflip even worse. On September 08 2009 05:23 bEsT[Alive] wrote: Good way of putting it FA. Couldn't have said it better myself. I understand they want faster games with the macro + mule/warp-in oberlisk/larva injection mechanics, but hell. It's going to take a shitload of time to balance. It took them years to get SC:BW to a good place. Ugh The path towards balance will be fun tho  I've long rued the fact that I never really paid attention to WC3 during the period where Ancient of War rushing was super imbalanced (basically, Night Elf buildings can walk and attack when uprooted, in one patch they were faaaaaar too strong so everyone just built them and attacked as far as I understand it :D). | ||
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bEsT[Alive]
606 Posts
That is to say, Blizzard is slow out of the gate and it will be a good sprint to the finish. | ||
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Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:52 Belano wrote: I am by no means an expert or even remotely close to that. But I'm going to just brainstorm anyways. If the problem is that the T or P can't scout what the Z is doing with their larvae, shouldn't the goal be to control what the Z can make? By that I mean playing aggressive. I understand that it might be difficult as P since you can't take down their ovie with zealots and if you go 2gate the Z will scout it and easily defend. But, could it be viable for T to add a barracks or two after chasing away their scouting ovie and try to go for early pressure to prevent Z from gaining to much of an economical advantage? Chances are I'm completely wrong but hey, just throwing it out there. Look, it's really simple. If you rush, Zerg can outproduce you. If you don't, Zerg can outworker you. If you do some hybrid in between, Zerg can move from Drones to units seemlessly. The queen's benefit applies to both economy and unit production. That doesn't happen for the other races. | ||
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dcttr66
United States555 Posts
that would be a good idea. | ||
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Jakalo
Latvia2350 Posts
On September 08 2009 05:40 bEsT[Alive] wrote: I'll try to spread some cheer: "Remember guys! Pool used to be 150 minerals!" :p That is to say, Blizzard is slow out of the gate and it will be a good sprint to the finish. Yeah I gotta agree with you on this one. And dont forget we will be getting at least two expansions most probably dramaticly changing race balances as the comes out. | ||
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dcttr66
United States555 Posts
i was referring to the early game only. am i still wrong? obviously games usually last past the early but sometimes not. at any rate if one race or the other fares badly enough in the early game then later on it'll be a big challenge. i think protoss had the aggressor's advantage vs zerg in sc. zerg would just try to take over the map, but if protoss had a good enough early game, that'll never happen. i think the pro scene of starcraft maybe has had a lack of good protoss players, and i think it's because a lot of the pro starcraft maps that have been played on, if not all of them...have been emphasizing macro a lot. that's all people care about when playing protoss, zerg or terran sometimes i think. but, protoss becomes stronger than zerg when you micro properly...unless you hit late game and zerg swarms you before you can rape overlords. the thing is that i think because of the huge popularity of macro over micro styled maps...and of course latency being a problem with micro also...not to mention the fastest speed...micro is less important. that's why protoss is weaker than zerg, like you said. but in sc2, micro will be a lot more important. that's why something like a boost to the zerg's macro will be ok. because protoss are still going to be really strong if you micro them properly. and even lower leveled players like me will have a better time at macroing properly. that's why when i'll go up against zerg player my level he'll actually stand a chance. because he's got this new mechanic that helps his macro. all my theorycrafting aside though...didn't Karune say he loses to David Kim? i guess unless we see them fight eachother we still might be arguing over the matter alot. | ||
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hacpee
United States752 Posts
On September 08 2009 04:37 Lobbo wrote: I must just ask, is not protoss stronger in early game in bw? I mean if toss opens 2 gate they are far superior to a zerg who opens 9 pool. Is this not the same deal? WTF are you smoking? 9 pool speedlings owns 2gate lots. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
About the maps, I sooooooort of disagree, because some of the most imbalanced PvZ maps of all time (like Bifrost) were not macro maps at all, while some of the most imbalanced in P's favour (like Guillotine or Paradox) were macro maps. There's always been slightly less toss pros, but I think that also has to do with the fact that they've long been perceived as slightly weaker (until recently anyway - back in the day I used to argue hardcore with people who said zerg was too strong, now it's almost reversed lol). I think it's, in the end, all up to the maps (and expansions, patches..) whether macro or micro will be more important for SC2 ~~ On September 08 2009 06:19 hacpee wrote: WTF are you smoking? 9 pool speedlings owns 2gate lots. Ehhh, I think P ends up ahead as long as he secures his ramp. Although I guess it depends on definition, you can't really move out with your 2 gate zealots until you reach a high number of zealots, and you still rsik being countered so... | ||
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