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Calgary26003 Posts
On August 26 2009 07:05 adelarge wrote:Some info from this thread http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1250Show nested quote +
Q: Are the macro mechanics working like expected, or do they get too repetitive after a while? What about their mineral-only aspect? Does that work late game, or the mineral-only units are getting smashed by superior tech, anyways? Won't the mineral/gas ratio skew gameplay to basic units and static defenses?
A: One thing I did not like about the game how it is, is the fact that while playing Protoss and using PC I got a TON of minerals, like a LOT!! And I could make a bajillion Zealots, Terrans "Mule calldown" is almost counter productive, you have to pay 150 minerals to have your command center stop doing anything for about 60 seconds at least just to upgrade to Orbital Command.
As for is the new econ stuff just a APM sink or is it effective, Mule felt like an APM sink because you didn't feel the minerals coming in, I'm sure you got a more then usual amount but you don't feel it, and hitting 1, E, and clicking on a mineral field is hardly APM sink. For PC you REALLY feel it, it adds 1 mineral for each trip for your probes, and it shows a LOT. Protoss gets so much more minerals than the other races (at least early-mid to early late game) that if you got the obalisk rather quickly for PC than you would basicly win every time because you can now make 1 Zealot for every 2 zerglings or 2 marines.
That being said it felt like since the Mule calldown was so poor for mineral gain, the Terran was VERY behind on the economy race. Zerg has the larva spawn which gets expansions up in about 3 seconds, and Protoss can kill people with numbers alone. I did actually test this theory and my body was able to make as ALMOST as many Zealots as I has marines in the space of about 10 minutes, Terran Econ just feels realllly slow, and it hurts them a lot because their units are not all that strong, and the new pathing helps melee units a lot.
As for gas, once you got an expansion or 2 it wasn't to too bad, it did feel just about balanced. What they need to do though it either take out PC, Mule, and possibly larva spawn out completely, or take a hard look at balancing the fact that Protoss can produce as much as Terran, but all their units are at least double the strength.
Interesting point - you could build queens and obelisk without stopping drone/probe production, but when you want orbital command, you must shut down your SCV production for a significant time. The terran macro mechanic seems worse every time I hear about it...
Significant time, ie the time to build one scv which is made up by the price reduction 200 vs 150. Everything in that FAQ is wrong.
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I would like to know why comsat is suddenly unnecessary in SC2. Terran players build and use comsats even when the other side doesn't have a single cloaked unit in SC, why should it be different in SC2? Will scouting become less important? Or is it just that the necessity of keeping up with the macro abilities of the other races (or, in a TvT, comsat vs. mule) means that you simply cannot afford to use comsat? Or are you supposed to make up for the lack of comsat by spamming sensor towers all over the map?
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I actually loved the double gas mechanic they implemented. It really helps the macro game IMO.
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On August 26 2009 07:22 General Nuke Em wrote:
I would like to know why comsat is suddenly unnecessary in SC2. Terran players build and use comsats even when the other side doesn't have a single cloaked unit in SC, why should it be different in SC2? Will scouting become less important? Or is it just that the necessity of keeping up with the macro abilities of the other races (or, in a TvT, comsat vs. mule) means that you simply cannot afford to use comsat? Or are you supposed to make up for the lack of comsat by spamming sensor towers all over the map? I think you're supposed to make a choice, which is a nice trait for the terran mechanics that hopefully will be added to the queen/obelisk.
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I like how half the people complain that the queen and obelisk dont have choice and the other half complain about having to choose with the orbital command :p
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I am pro choice. Can the queen and obelisk mechanic be kept mechanically the same, but tweaked in such a way that using the mechanic is a choice rather than a compulsory action?
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On August 24 2009 19:10 loft wrote:
old macro mechanic was just because of a bad UI... (no MBS, no automine)
so we have these two things now, but we still need something to make the game physically challenging.
Right now SC2 is asking the player to use an ability for most efficient resources. With critiques saying this task is pointless. Do you have to look at your base to use a dark pylon (I don't think so)
ok: Old macro = looking at your base for pointless actions
New macro = should be looking at your base for meaningful action
Maybe there should be a "training station" a small building. One SCV goes in and comes out with faster mining ability for X amount of time. Or even like military training and you can do the same for units, but the key is that this is going on in your base maintaining the macro demand.
Another approach would be to keep the base maintenance easy, but advance the players ability to both attack and defend multiple locations. Units specifically for hit and run.
there is nothing inherently more meaningful about going back to your base clicking on an obelisk to make your probes go faster than going back to your base to tell your probes to mine.
They just replaced one task with another and calling one modern and one old is just loaded words. Both are there for the same purpose and whichever one is the most fun should be chosen.
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On August 26 2009 08:12 Badjas wrote:
I am pro choice. Can the queen and obelisk mechanic be kept mechanically the same, but tweaked in such a way that using the mechanic is a choice rather than a compulsory action?
Very , Very easily for the Queen
Improve Transfuse + Creep Tumor (make Queen more expensive to compensate)
Weaken Spawn Larva (make Queen cheaper to compensate)
Obelisk a bit more difficult, but the same idea....(improving Shield Battery+energy recharge primarily needs a way to get the Obelisk on the battlefield) This would require Obelisks to move or to share their energy with each other. But the mechanic of Proton Charge could be the same
Right now SC2 P+Z macro is just as bad as BW macro, pointless automation
hopefully P+Z macro can be improved.
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Do we really want an ability that you choose as often as you choose extra minerals?
There should be choice but it doesnt have to be equal choice.
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It should NOT be equal
it should be better a significant amount of the time, and worse a significant amount of the time.
Currently it seems as if Proton Charge/ Spawn Larva are worse only an insignificant amount of time. Wheras MULE is worse a significant amount of time. (but also better a significant amount of time)
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yeah, honestly terran macro felt a lot like war3. Let the workers work, and just have all your production buildings hotkeyed and just tab through them to keep makin units
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On August 26 2009 11:33 Raydog wrote:
yeah, honestly terran macro felt a lot like war3. Let the workers work, and just have all your production buildings hotkeyed and just tab through them to keep makin units
I don't see a problem with this, as you are going to have 3, 4, 5 times as many buildings producing as in warcraft 3. StarCraft is hard because it's poorly designed - making unit-building macro easier (still willr equire some APM) will free up time for good strategic thought, impressive micro, better army positioning, etc. - all the exciting things. I'd be pissed off if I bought the game and had to click each barrack to make a unit it's just stupid design let's see some progression. I don't think it will hurt the competitiveness as much as people think - it is one of the least significant factors in the success of the original SC as an ESPORT.
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On August 26 2009 17:09 iCCup.deL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2009 11:33 Raydog wrote:
yeah, honestly terran macro felt a lot like war3. Let the workers work, and just have all your production buildings hotkeyed and just tab through them to keep makin units I don't see a problem with this, as you are going to have 3, 4, 5 times as many buildings producing as in warcraft 3. StarCraft is hard because it's poorly designed - making unit-building macro easier (still willr equire some APM) will free up time for good strategic thought, impressive micro, better army positioning, etc. - all the exciting things. I'd be pissed off if I bought the game and had to click each barrack to make a unit it's just stupid design let's see some progression. I don't think it will hurt the competitiveness as much as people think - it is one of the least significant factors in the success of the original SC as an ESPORT.
yeah I never meant to say it as a problem, just as a (what I consider myself to be) experienced war3 player, It was strikingly similar. The only difference is that when you have say 3 Raxs in a group, you have to hit mmm to make 1 marine in each rax. Whereas in war3 if you want to make a sorceress at each arcane sanctum, and both are in a group, just have to hit s once.
I like this macro in sc2 a lot more than original sc. I just wanted to say what it reminded me of, never meant to say it like it was a problem.
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Question for people who played at Blizzcon
Did you find yourself using Warp-In all the time or were there situations where you would use gateways?
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hmmm, maybe with the obelisk, they can increase the shield battery's range (casting range). so if u decided to spam all your energy making your workers mine more, and don't have any energy left for shield batteries, and u only have a zealot blocking ur ramp, if you get rushed, you lose. but if u did have the energy, ur zealot would survive? something to that effect? so you have to scout your opponent and determine whether to take the economic advantage, or to play it safe for a bit and prepare for a rush? iunno something to that effect...
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The obelisk idea that comes to mind for me is allowing the shield recharge to speed up building construction, allowing a player to sacrifice econ for faster tech.
Although that ability wouldn't be as useful in the end-game.
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Protoss mechanic is the easiest to use (LoL). And it's also the most evident, that's why I played like 65% of the games with toss at blizzcon (out of like 30 games?).
The Mule calldown did seem a lot shittier, for the aforementioned reasons (Does the mule actually mine more per trip? I didn't really pay attention), and also that when you call it down, it takes like 3 seconds to hit the floor. Then you need to tell it to mine. Compared to Z or P you just click the unit/bldg and hit the hotkey and it's basically done. (well for zerg you have to wait a bit and then larva pop out but that's ok, it's like it doubles your hatch)
The main thing that pissed me off with this build is just the 'fix' to prevent easy macro since it's all MBS. On one hand its really good because you don't accidentally build 3 overlords when you just want 1 or two. You can designate how many according to how many times you press O once your hatches are selected. But on the other hand it makes zerg macro SOooooo much worse compared to protoss. Especially if you plan to make banelings or lurkers, because each ling/hydra also needs to upgraded 1 at a time when mass selected.
This was also kind of annoying when there were multiple structures selected that had minor differences. Example: Terran fortress thing and the terran comscan/mule thing if you had these upped and your CCs were all 1 hotkey it won't build SCV out of other CCs, just the ones that took priorty. So instead of making 3 scv- one at each base it would make 3 at the fortress. So in other words, to keep the game mechanically easier its probably actually better to avoid the CC upgrades and shit like that if you can (this is bad for game design if they actually want people to use the stuff they worked so hard on).
And same thing applied to barracks with addons or whatever bldg that had a modifier or upg. So like 3 normal barracks, one with a tech lab, and one with a reactor and you try to make a marine for all of them and you only get 5 marines at the tech lab or something. edit- you might have been able to tab through structures like you can in wc3 but I didn't try that and that sucks ass anyways, just adds even more clicks which is especially bad for zerg imo.
As it is now zerg requires like 5x the macro which totally sucks since they have fragile/melee units.
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On August 27 2009 05:19 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Protoss mechanic is the easiest to use (LoL). And it's also the most evident, that's why I played like 65% of the games with toss at blizzcon (out of like 30 games?).
The Mule calldown did seem a lot shittier, for the aforementioned reasons (Does the mule actually mine more per trip? I didn't really pay attention), and also that when you call it down, it takes like 3 seconds to hit the floor. Then you need to tell it to mine. I've recently been told you can now call the mule down directly on minerals. Did you try that? I guess maybe it wasn't in that build?
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On August 27 2009 03:40 Archerofaiur wrote:
Question for people who played at Blizzcon
Did you find yourself using Warp-In all the time or were there situations where you would use gateways?
They both have their uses. Warp Gates I found to be a pain in the ass to use because every unit you throw down deselected your gates or something and I wasn't able to reproduce the videos where they throw down like units like bam,bam,bam bam in rapid succession.
In summary they require more macro to use and they shut down your production for a while (while upgrading). So it's not ideal to rush to even in the early game unless your strategy is going to exploit their mobility or something.
Just like I said in the above post, it's probably actually better to not even get them at all because the same reason as the CC upgrade. Mechanically, gateways are easier to use for late game macro especially.
They were really fucking good however, to have units appear right in battle or with a proxied pylon in the enemy base warping in DTs. It's fucking rape. So like I said, if your strat requires the warp gates then yea, get them, if not, you're probably better off sticking to regular gates.
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On August 27 2009 05:25 Tsagacity wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2009 05:19 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Protoss mechanic is the easiest to use (LoL). And it's also the most evident, that's why I played like 65% of the games with toss at blizzcon (out of like 30 games?).
The Mule calldown did seem a lot shittier, for the aforementioned reasons (Does the mule actually mine more per trip? I didn't really pay attention), and also that when you call it down, it takes like 3 seconds to hit the floor. Then you need to tell it to mine. I've recently been told you can now call the mule down directly on minerals. Did you try that? I guess maybe it wasn't in that build?
yea maybe not, I don't think I was able to do that.
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EPT
