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On December 26 2012 04:18 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
Did I suddenly wake up and find out fungal was BALANCED??!??!?! Am I reading this right? Look, all of you guys are approaching this the wrong way. What is fungal in the first place? Fungal is an:
-Aoe
-Root
-Silence
-30 guaranteed dot damage
-Reveal
-Relatively Cheap (energy wise)
-Stackable
-Does NOT affect friendly units
-Long casting range
-Does NOT require research
-Can come immediate available on the unit with an upgrade
All on a unit that has:
-decent mobility (especially on creep)
-Ability to spawn free high dps units
-can take control of enemy units
-Accessible at Tier 2
-Easily massable
Fungal doesn't not silenced
it cost 75 energy (same as storm) - it's expensive for only 30 damage (storm does 80)
It does not stack, you can put down 10 fungals on 1 target but it's just going to refresh it, essentially wasting 9 fungals
The cast range is only 8, which means that Snipe and EMP (both from the ghost) can be used to counter it (Yes, infestors have a counter that terrans don't seem to be making).
You need to get pathogen glands (150/150) to make infestors half way decent
Decent mobility, but you have to realize it's countered by having low HP
Infested Terrans aren't free, they cost energy (which is vital to the infestor) and move slow, you can bait them out and run away just like you can against sentry forcefields
neural parasite has a high mana cost and requires an upgrade
It's at tier 2.5, not tier 2
All units are easily massable, aren't they? Just requires minerals and / or gas.
Just want to fight these common misconceptions, fungal growth doesn't instantly win you the game. If it was truly OP we wouldn't have a 50/50 winrate for PvZ, would we? No, it would be much larger, 70-90% in favor of Zerg.
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On December 26 2012 04:26 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 04:18 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
Did I suddenly wake up and find out fungal was BALANCED??!??!?! Am I reading this right? Look, all of you guys are approaching this the wrong way. What is fungal in the first place? Fungal is an:
-Aoe
-Root
-Silence
-30 guaranteed dot damage
-Reveal
-Relatively Cheap (energy wise)
-Stackable
-Does NOT affect friendly units
-Long casting range
-Does NOT require research
-Can come immediate available on the unit with an upgrade
All on a unit that has:
-decent mobility (especially on creep)
-Ability to spawn free high dps units
-can take control of enemy units
-Accessible at Tier 2
-Easily massable
Fungal doesn't not silenced it cost 75 energy (same as storm) - it's expensive for only 30 damage (storm does 80) It does not stack, you can put down 10 fungals on 1 target but it's just going to refresh it, essentially wasting 9 fungals The cast range is only 8, which means that Snipe and EMP (both from the ghost) can be used to counter it (Yes, infestors have a counter that terrans don't seem to be making). You need to get pathogen glands (150/150) to make infestors half way decent Decent mobility, but you have to realize it's countered by having low HP Infested Terrans aren't free, they cost energy (which is vital to the infestor) and move slow, you can bait them out and run away just like you can against sentry forcefields neural parasite has a high mana cost and requires an upgrade It's at tier 2.5, not tier 2 All units are easily massable, aren't they? Just requires minerals and / or gas. Just want to fight these common misconceptions, fungal growth doesn't instantly win you the game. If it was truly OP we wouldn't have a 50/50 winrate for PvZ, would we? No, it would be much larger, 70-90% in favor of Zerg.
Storm is dodgeable even after it's casted. Fungal isn't. Fungal can be chained, storm can't. Once you hit one fungal, you can hit 10. The cast range is 10, not 8. 10 is farther than most units can see. So no, you can't counter it with snipe and emp. You get pathogen upgrade which makes fungle castable from spawn. High templar have no such upgrade. High templar also have shit hp, as do ghosts. IT's are free. They only cost energy and can do much more damage than fungal, or storm, for less energy. All units cannot be massed while winning games. You can win entire games with only infestors, which we have seen.
Just wanted to show that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. PvZ winrate is only balanced because of two and threebase allins by toss.
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On December 26 2012 04:26 nomyx wrote:
Fungal doesn't not silenced
it cost 75 energy (same as storm) - it's expensive for only 30 damage (storm does 80)
It does not stack, you can put down 10 fungals on 1 target but it's just going to refresh it, essentially wasting 9 fungals
The cast range is only 8, which means that Snipe and EMP (both from the ghost) can be used to counter it (Yes, infestors have a counter that terrans don't seem to be making).
You need to get pathogen glands (150/150) to make infestors half way decent
Decent mobility, but you have to realize it's countered by having low HP
Infested Terrans aren't free, they cost energy (which is vital to the infestor) and move slow, you can bait them out and run away just like you can against sentry forcefields
neural parasite has a high mana cost and requires an upgrade
It's at tier 2.5, not tier 2
All units are easily massable, aren't they? Just requires minerals and / or gas.
Just want to fight these common misconceptions, fungal growth doesn't instantly win you the game. If it was truly OP we wouldn't have a 50/50 winrate for PvZ, would we? No, it would be much larger, 70-90% in favor of Zerg.
-Fungal prevent blink, storm and medivac pickup, it essentially silences
-30 guaranteed damage is much stronger than storm when you realize that you don't have to sacrifice an infestor to do it
-That's what I mean by "stack", if you cast it once than you can cast it again on the unit, just because the "effects" don't stack does not mean that it is not "stacking"
-They just buffed the cast range to 10 in the expansion, and why does it matter if it can be countered by units with ONE MORE RANGE? Most of the time you're just coming out even trying to counter with ghost or HT, not getting ahead by doing it
-LOW HP? Even with the new sniped it takes 3 snipes in order to kill the infestor, plus the infestor has more hp then a HT and just 10 less than a ghost
-With the mass infestor builds we see out there it seems like IT are basically free. If what you said was true why does it seem like zergs have enough energy to fungal an entire army AND drop down 20 IT? so much for the "IT takes energy away from fungal" argument
-What matters is the POTENTIAL to control, not that it actually controls. In the end it doesn't justify what's wrong with fungal in the first place
-meh it doesn't change the fact that it seems like the infestor seems to be easily accessible whenever the zerg needs it
-the infestor is easily massable for the enormous amount of utility it provides. I mean, come on now I don't remember in BW any race having 20+ spell casters to rely on to do all the work for them
I can't believe the nitpicks in this post. My point is that all the aspects of fungal make it GREATER THAN THE SUM OF IT'S PARTS. Just because there are small "weaknesses" in one aspect does not change that fungal can be basically used in almost all situation, and that blizzard still relies on it to fix the problems that they failed to resolve in their "expansion". And when did I say that fungal was an "intant-win" button? I said that fungal was BAD DESIGN that basically was used to fix all problems that zerg had with the game. Struggle against muta? use fungal. Struggle against deathball? use fungal. Struggle against mech? Use fungal and broodlords. Starting to see a pattern here? I've repeated myself again and again, this is supposed to be a DYNAMIC RTS. Relying on one unit to solve all problem with the race does not seem to be "dynamic" nor does there seem to be any "strategy" involved in doing so.
Edit: so I was wrong with the armored thing  I guess that completely invalidates what the entire post was about :D Thanks JDub I'm a retard lol
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@Kamikaze infestors are armored so tanks and marauders do bonus dmg to them. Just FYI
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On December 26 2012 05:01 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 04:26 nomyx wrote:
Fungal doesn't not silenced
it cost 75 energy (same as storm) - it's expensive for only 30 damage (storm does 80)
It does not stack, you can put down 10 fungals on 1 target but it's just going to refresh it, essentially wasting 9 fungals
The cast range is only 8, which means that Snipe and EMP (both from the ghost) can be used to counter it (Yes, infestors have a counter that terrans don't seem to be making).
You need to get pathogen glands (150/150) to make infestors half way decent
Decent mobility, but you have to realize it's countered by having low HP
Infested Terrans aren't free, they cost energy (which is vital to the infestor) and move slow, you can bait them out and run away just like you can against sentry forcefields
neural parasite has a high mana cost and requires an upgrade
It's at tier 2.5, not tier 2
All units are easily massable, aren't they? Just requires minerals and / or gas.
Just want to fight these common misconceptions, fungal growth doesn't instantly win you the game. If it was truly OP we wouldn't have a 50/50 winrate for PvZ, would we? No, it would be much larger, 70-90% in favor of Zerg.
-Fungal prevent blink, storm and medivac pickup, it essentially silences -30 guaranteed damage is much stronger than storm when you realize that you don't have to sacrifice an infestor to do it -That's what I mean by "stack", if you cast it once than you can cast it again on the unit, just because the "effects" don't stack does not mean that it is not "stacking" -They just buffed the cast range to 10 in the expansion, and why does it matter if it can be countered by units with ONE MORE RANGE? Most of the time you're just coming out even trying to counter with ghost or HT, not getting ahead by doing it -LOW HP? Even with the new sniped it takes 3 snipes in order to kill the infestor, plus the infestor has more hp then a HT and just 10 less than a ghost -With the mass infestor builds we see out there it seems like IT are basically free. If what you said was true why does it seem like zergs have enough energy to fungal an entire army AND drop down 20 IT? so much for the "IT takes energy away from fungal" argument -What matters is the POTENTIAL to control, not that it actually controls. In the end it doesn't justify what's wrong with fungal in the first place -meh it doesn't change the fact that it seems like the infestor seems to be easily accessible whenever the zerg needs it -the infestor is easily massable for the enormous amount of utility it provides. I mean, come on now I don't remember in BW any race having 20+ spell casters to rely on to do all the work for them I can't believe the nitpicks in this post. My point is that all the aspects of fungal make it GREATER THAN THE SUM OF IT'S PARTS. Just because there are small "weaknesses" in one aspect does not change that fungal can be basically used in almost all situation, and that blizzard still relies on it to fix the problems that they failed to resolve in their "expansion". And when did I say that fungal was an "intant-win" button? I said that fungal was BAD DESIGN that basically was used to fix all problems that zerg had with the game. Struggle against muta? use fungal. Struggle against deathball? use fungal. Struggle against mech? Use fungal and broodlords. Starting to see a pattern here? I've repeated myself again and again, this is supposed to be a DYNAMIC RTS. Relying on one unit to solve all problem with the race does not seem to be "dynamic" nor does there seem to be any "strategy" involved in doing so. Edit: so I was wrong with the armored thing I guess that completely invalidates what the entire post was about :D Thanks JDub I'm a retard lol
Your first post was dead on. Only zergs that are fighting to get the least nerf possible will argue. It's bad design, period, as many many many people have been saying for a long time.
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On December 26 2012 03:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 02:52 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 26 2012 02:40 Big J wrote:On December 26 2012 02:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Well, if Big J makes the argument that infestors are too easy to get en masse then the reasonable solution is to make them more expensive/higher in tech. (But infestors might be needed to stop timings (which I disagree with) but I think it's a given that people would OK buffs to hydras/X Zerg units to see infestors become situational units.)
But you were arguing that they have too much utility in numbers due to IT's, etc. What I'm saying is that fungal alone is sufficient for that utility.
I think the arguments you're making saying that storm and fungals are the same are still weak. The way it functions in games, especially from a spectator point of view is different due to the additional root mechanic (which I think could be ok alone, but not as part of a very damaging spell. Also, SC2 is not, and should not become LoL). If you removed ITs today, how would Infestors be efficient vs tanks? Run into range and out every 4seconds and add 10dps per fungal and unit? I can get 14.5 dps by sending similar health half price hydras into the tank line! For a similar investment I can have 3 more roaches (24dps, higher burst)! Protoss deathballs would probably roflstomp Infestor/Broodlord without the support of 50 stimmed marines spawning in the Protoss ball. ZvZ... I don't care if you build more Infestors. I'm gonna build more roach/hydra and I'm just gonna fight my way through your fungals. I mean... If I can choose 335HP and 24dps for 225/75 or 1-2 fungals for 100/150 after I already have 5fungals... I take the roaches! (and even for those 5fungals I wouldn't be too sure... after all I could build a ton more roach/hydra or upgrades instead). It would absolutly not make sense from a costperspective, to build more infestors instead of more basic units. And from a supply perspective, just build more BLs, Ultras... Right now, when in doubt, you build more Infestors and throw 8 stimmed marines for 2supply. Leave out PvZ for now. In terms of vT, you just asked how to make infestors efficient against the unit that's supposed to counter it. Well, they are not. That's why we have counters. Also, the efficiency then works the same way as with other units. An infestor is efficient when the counter is not on the playing field, it is not in position or if it's not sieged (sieges are another liability for terrans). Would infestors still be useful? Of course they would, just like ghosts are useful. When they don't get sniped, they do massive damage. In fact, I still think they would be so useful people would keep massing them. Where did I ask that? I think that this is the way it is supposed to be! And that's why I think nerfing ITs in ways that they become really bad in lategame combat is the way to go (completly removing IT removes midgame Infestor attacks and IT harass, which I think are all awesome to play with/against and spectate). Add some stuff on top of that, so that Infestors become more managable in combat (range nerf, speed nerf, projectile, more sight on basic units, more visible burrow movement; maybe a size reduction for more splash, better EMPing). I think blizzard has been doing a good job up to this patch with the Infestor in HotS. The 10range is ridicolous and will hopefully be tuned down again very soon.
I think we're quite close then regarding our opinions on the infestor. Thank you for taking the points seriously. Merry Christmas.
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On December 26 2012 04:55 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 04:26 nomyx wrote:On December 26 2012 04:18 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
Did I suddenly wake up and find out fungal was BALANCED??!??!?! Am I reading this right? Look, all of you guys are approaching this the wrong way. What is fungal in the first place? Fungal is an:
-Aoe
-Root
-Silence
-30 guaranteed dot damage
-Reveal
-Relatively Cheap (energy wise)
-Stackable
-Does NOT affect friendly units
-Long casting range
-Does NOT require research
-Can come immediate available on the unit with an upgrade
All on a unit that has:
-decent mobility (especially on creep)
-Ability to spawn free high dps units
-can take control of enemy units
-Accessible at Tier 2
-Easily massable
Fungal doesn't not silenced it cost 75 energy (same as storm) - it's expensive for only 30 damage (storm does 80) It does not stack, you can put down 10 fungals on 1 target but it's just going to refresh it, essentially wasting 9 fungals The cast range is only 8, which means that Snipe and EMP (both from the ghost) can be used to counter it (Yes, infestors have a counter that terrans don't seem to be making). You need to get pathogen glands (150/150) to make infestors half way decent Decent mobility, but you have to realize it's countered by having low HP Infested Terrans aren't free, they cost energy (which is vital to the infestor) and move slow, you can bait them out and run away just like you can against sentry forcefields neural parasite has a high mana cost and requires an upgrade It's at tier 2.5, not tier 2 All units are easily massable, aren't they? Just requires minerals and / or gas. Just want to fight these common misconceptions, fungal growth doesn't instantly win you the game. If it was truly OP we wouldn't have a 50/50 winrate for PvZ, would we? No, it would be much larger, 70-90% in favor of Zerg. Storm is dodgeable even after it's casted. Fungal isn't. Fungal can be chained, storm can't. Once you hit one fungal, you can hit 10. The cast range is 10, not 8. 10 is farther than most units can see. So no, you can't counter it with snipe and emp. You get pathogen upgrade which makes fungle castable from spawn. High templar have no such upgrade. High templar also have shit hp, as do ghosts. IT's are free. They only cost energy and can do much more damage than fungal, or storm, for less energy. All units cannot be massed while winning games. You can win entire games with only infestors, which we have seen. Just wanted to show that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. PvZ winrate is only balanced because of two and threebase allins by toss.
You are responding to a guy, who in the lings of liberty thread, states that:
"To everyone saying that zergs are only winning due to their race, consider that the best players are zergs. Zerg requires the most multi-tasking and mechanics of any race, and strong mechanics make zerg a strong race."
I wouldn't take anything he posts that seriously.
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On December 26 2012 05:01 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
-That's what I mean by "stack", if you cast it once than you can cast it again on the unit, just because the "effects" don't stack does not mean that it is not "stacking"
I think you're confusing the terms chained and stacked. Fungal is definitely not stackable.
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On December 26 2012 05:01 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 04:26 nomyx wrote:
Fungal doesn't not silenced
it cost 75 energy (same as storm) - it's expensive for only 30 damage (storm does 80)
It does not stack, you can put down 10 fungals on 1 target but it's just going to refresh it, essentially wasting 9 fungals
The cast range is only 8, which means that Snipe and EMP (both from the ghost) can be used to counter it (Yes, infestors have a counter that terrans don't seem to be making).
You need to get pathogen glands (150/150) to make infestors half way decent
Decent mobility, but you have to realize it's countered by having low HP
Infested Terrans aren't free, they cost energy (which is vital to the infestor) and move slow, you can bait them out and run away just like you can against sentry forcefields
neural parasite has a high mana cost and requires an upgrade
It's at tier 2.5, not tier 2
All units are easily massable, aren't they? Just requires minerals and / or gas.
Just want to fight these common misconceptions, fungal growth doesn't instantly win you the game. If it was truly OP we wouldn't have a 50/50 winrate for PvZ, would we? No, it would be much larger, 70-90% in favor of Zerg.
-Fungal prevent blink, storm and medivac pickup, it essentially silences -30 guaranteed damage is much stronger than storm when you realize that you don't have to sacrifice an infestor to do it -That's what I mean by "stack", if you cast it once than you can cast it again on the unit, just because the "effects" don't stack does not mean that it is not "stacking" -They just buffed the cast range to 10 in the expansion, and why does it matter if it can be countered by units with ONE MORE RANGE? Most of the time you're just coming out even trying to counter with ghost or HT, not getting ahead by doing it -LOW HP? Even with the new sniped it takes 3 snipes in order to kill the infestor, plus the infestor has more hp then a HT and just 10 less than a ghost -With the mass infestor builds we see out there it seems like IT are basically free. If what you said was true why does it seem like zergs have enough energy to fungal an entire army AND drop down 20 IT? so much for the "IT takes energy away from fungal" argument -What matters is the POTENTIAL to control, not that it actually controls. In the end it doesn't justify what's wrong with fungal in the first place -meh it doesn't change the fact that it seems like the infestor seems to be easily accessible whenever the zerg needs it -the infestor is easily massable for the enormous amount of utility it provides. I mean, come on now I don't remember in BW any race having 20+ spell casters to rely on to do all the work for them I can't believe the nitpicks in this post. My point is that all the aspects of fungal make it GREATER THAN THE SUM OF IT'S PARTS. Just because there are small "weaknesses" in one aspect does not change that fungal can be basically used in almost all situation, and that blizzard still relies on it to fix the problems that they failed to resolve in their "expansion". And when did I say that fungal was an "intant-win" button? I said that fungal was BAD DESIGN that basically was used to fix all problems that zerg had with the game. Struggle against muta? use fungal. Struggle against deathball? use fungal. Struggle against mech? Use fungal and broodlords. Starting to see a pattern here? I've repeated myself again and again, this is supposed to be a DYNAMIC RTS. Relying on one unit to solve all problem with the race does not seem to be "dynamic" nor does there seem to be any "strategy" involved in doing so. Edit: so I was wrong with the armored thing I guess that completely invalidates what the entire post was about :D Thanks JDub I'm a retard lol
The infestor isn't free, it costs 150 (!) gas per infestor, has a long build time, low HP, snipes can kill it easily, EMP makes it useless, feedback kills it / makes it useless. PDD can pick it off easily, same with battlecrusier (strange how terran doesn't make these two units). Infestors are balanced, but it's up to the player to minimize the damage of fungal
If you want to complain about zerg, complain about how safe they are because of the queen buff.
On December 26 2012 04:55 Infernal_dream wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 04:26 nomyx wrote:On December 26 2012 04:18 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
Did I suddenly wake up and find out fungal was BALANCED??!??!?! Am I reading this right? Look, all of you guys are approaching this the wrong way. What is fungal in the first place? Fungal is an:
-Aoe
-Root
-Silence
-30 guaranteed dot damage
-Reveal
-Relatively Cheap (energy wise)
-Stackable
-Does NOT affect friendly units
-Long casting range
-Does NOT require research
-Can come immediate available on the unit with an upgrade
All on a unit that has:
-decent mobility (especially on creep)
-Ability to spawn free high dps units
-can take control of enemy units
-Accessible at Tier 2
-Easily massable
Fungal doesn't not silenced it cost 75 energy (same as storm) - it's expensive for only 30 damage (storm does 80) It does not stack, you can put down 10 fungals on 1 target but it's just going to refresh it, essentially wasting 9 fungals The cast range is only 8, which means that Snipe and EMP (both from the ghost) can be used to counter it (Yes, infestors have a counter that terrans don't seem to be making). You need to get pathogen glands (150/150) to make infestors half way decent Decent mobility, but you have to realize it's countered by having low HP Infested Terrans aren't free, they cost energy (which is vital to the infestor) and move slow, you can bait them out and run away just like you can against sentry forcefields neural parasite has a high mana cost and requires an upgrade It's at tier 2.5, not tier 2 All units are easily massable, aren't they? Just requires minerals and / or gas. Just want to fight these common misconceptions, fungal growth doesn't instantly win you the game. If it was truly OP we wouldn't have a 50/50 winrate for PvZ, would we? No, it would be much larger, 70-90% in favor of Zerg. Storm is dodgeable even after it's casted. Fungal isn't. Fungal can be chained, storm can't. Once you hit one fungal, you can hit 10. The cast range is 10, not 8. 10 is farther than most units can see. So no, you can't counter it with snipe and emp. You get pathogen upgrade which makes fungle castable from spawn. High templar have no such upgrade. High templar also have shit hp, as do ghosts. IT's are free. They only cost energy and can do much more damage than fungal, or storm, for less energy. All units cannot be massed while winning games. You can win entire games with only infestors, which we have seen. Just wanted to show that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. PvZ winrate is only balanced because of two and threebase allins by toss.
You can micro before hand. You can chain storms onto the target area. You can cast as many storms/emp/fungals as you want if you have energy. IT cost energy and can be baited out and they prevent more fungals from being used. If you only make infestors you will only have 6 drones and you will die to an all-in
All zerg match-ups are balanced right now.
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Even if all zerg match-ups are balanced (which I strongly doubt lol), what you have to understand is that fungal is bad for esport since spectators don't like it (except maybe a few zergs players). Fungals does not fit in the dynamic RTS sc2 has become, thus it needs changes. Period.
People are tired of seeing 20 or more infestors in every game that has a zerg player.
Me, this is the reason I hate watching Scarlett playing lol
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On December 26 2012 08:45 VieuxSinge wrote:
Even if all zerg match-ups are balanced (which I strongly doubt lol), what you have to understand is that fungal is bad for esport since spectators don't like it (except maybe a few zergs players). Fungals does not fit in the dynamic RTS sc2 has become, thus it needs changes. Period.
People are tired of seeing 20 or more infestors in every game that has a zerg player.
Me, this is the reason I hate watching Scarlett playing lol
I don't like watching SCVs mining. Mining shouldn't be required for the spectators.
You see, you can't put the spectators first. Put the game first, then the spectators. Fungal is so much better now that it is a projectile as it is better balanced (half decent range, looks cool) and the players enjoy it too.
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As a zerg player: I am seriously wondering where people's heads are if they claim that fungal right now is balanced.
And evne if it is: it is not a good and fun spell.
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No, I am sorry, but no one enjoys seeing vikings (range 9) getting chained fungals (range 10) to death. No one likes to see infestors/broodlords mix destroying everything in their paths.
What the spectators want, and what the players want (even the majority of Zergs) is to see a very dynamic game, not a one sided and slow game from a mix of 2 units ravaging everything.
Before the last up of the infestors, zerg players where starting to explore new possibilities, very dynamic ones, and zerg match up were becoming very nice to watch, very enjoyable. Now we are back to square 1 : infest broodlords every game. Boring as hell, and even harder to counter has a terran since vikings can get fungaled even more easily.
This thread going to 80 pages is the living proof people don't want the infestor to come back. If blizzard should buff zerg, then they should buff the others units.
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On December 26 2012 08:48 nomyx wrote:
You see, you can't put the spectators first. Put the game first, then the spectators. Fungal is so much better now that it is a projectile as it is better balanced (half decent range, looks cool) and the players enjoy it too.
Fungal is blatantly imbalanced and everybody hates it.
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On December 26 2012 08:48 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 08:45 VieuxSinge wrote:
Even if all zerg match-ups are balanced (which I strongly doubt lol), what you have to understand is that fungal is bad for esport since spectators don't like it (except maybe a few zergs players). Fungals does not fit in the dynamic RTS sc2 has become, thus it needs changes. Period.
People are tired of seeing 20 or more infestors in every game that has a zerg player.
Me, this is the reason I hate watching Scarlett playing lol I don't like watching SCVs mining. Mining shouldn't be required for the spectators. You see, you can't put the spectators first. Put the game first, then the spectators. Fungal is so much better now that it is a projectile as it is better balanced (half decent range, looks cool) and the players enjoy it too.
What are you on about? How often do you as a spectator stare at the scvs mining after the 2 min mark? If you want to succeed as esports its obvious the game needs to be interesting to watch. And currently, mass infestors isn't. Its not fun to play against either, not sure where you got that from. I can't even for the life of me understand the fun of playing with them. You literally have one unit for every situation. How can you find mental stimulation in them? They are a bad design for everyone, and the best bet would be to radically change them (immune to chain frugal would be awesome tbh), or remove them.
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On December 26 2012 09:02 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 08:48 nomyx wrote:
You see, you can't put the spectators first. Put the game first, then the spectators. Fungal is so much better now that it is a projectile as it is better balanced (half decent range, looks cool) and the players enjoy it too. Fungal is blatantly imbalanced and everybody hates it.
Marines are blatantly imbalanced and everybody hates them. 
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Marines are blatantly imbalanced and everybody hates them.
Thats just not true, a much higher percentage of people would argue that fungal is imbalanced, yet marines are fine.
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On December 26 2012 09:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 09:02 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 08:48 nomyx wrote:
You see, you can't put the spectators first. Put the game first, then the spectators. Fungal is so much better now that it is a projectile as it is better balanced (half decent range, looks cool) and the players enjoy it too. Fungal is blatantly imbalanced and everybody hates it. Marines are blatantly imbalanced and everybody hates them.
Lol, except colossi, storm, tanks, banelings, fungal, etc all instantly rape marines, and marines don't lock down units and end the game 90% of the time, and take skill to use, and have soft counters. Infestors hardcounter like 90% of the units in the game, have basically no hardcounter, and their "hardcounters" can't even touch them due to fungal+infested terran.
And besides, everyone loves marines. They are fun to watch players micro them. Unlike infestors. Yawn.
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On December 26 2012 09:26 weikor wrote:Thats just not true, a much higher percentage of people would argue that fungal is imbalanced, yet marines are fine.
And an even bigger percentage of people would claim that Stalkers are fine and marines are completely and totally broken
Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you.
Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads...
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On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads...
Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster.
It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit.
I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare.
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EPT
