|
On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you.  Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare.
Big J has stated in the past that the problem is with the infestor being massable that causes the problem. Image if HT were massable. Then storms would be super OP, because you can't prevent them. As it stands, protoss players will only have 4-6 HT at a time, because they are just there for storm. If you pick off those 4-6, then no storms get off, whiffed storms are also huge because only 4-6 can even be cast. If you had 20 HT, then a whiffed storm is meaningless. Sniping HT is meaningless because there are so many backup HTs. Same with infestors. Since a zerg player has 30 infestors, you can't snipe them, you can't make them whiff because it doesn't matter. He has so many fungals he can cast. Fungal is fine if infestors are not massable, just as storm is fine because HT are not massable.
|
On December 26 2012 10:31 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare. Big J has stated in the past that the problem is with the infestor being massable that causes the problem. Image if HT were massable. Then storms would be super OP, because you can't prevent them. As it stands, protoss players will only have 4-6 HT at a time, because they are just there for storm. If you pick off those 4-6, then no storms get off, whiffed storms are also huge because only 4-6 can even be cast. If you had 20 HT, then a whiffed storm is meaningless. Sniping HT is meaningless because there are so many backup HTs. Same with infestors. Since a zerg player has 30 infestors, you can't snipe them, you can't make them whiff because it doesn't matter. He has so many fungals he can cast. Fungal is fine if infestors are not massable, just as storm is fine because HT are not massable.
The reason why infestors can be massed is primarily because of infested terrans, not because of fungal. People wouldn't build 20 infestors just to fungal because they simply wouldn't get that many off in a battle, and it'd be a waste. But, if you can use a few fungals and spend the rest of your energy throwing infested terrans all over the place, suddenly it's extremely powerful and cost effective. This is why I think infested terrans should be removed from the game and replaced with a different spell.
|
On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare.
Because I believe that the spell in itself is a great thing. I'm not defending the caster. Infestors in WoL are probably broken. Not blatantly. But they are too strong, probably in a general sense as in "Z is too strong because of Infestors", as well as in a "this unit is too hard to beat" sense.
I'm just getting tired of the same old "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" comments.
Just look at other stuff in the game:
Marines - 50/0/1 unit that can shoot air and ground, second highest dps in the game (highest ranged). Decent HP per cost/supply. Upgrades extremely well (+16%), lowest Tier etc etc...
Does it matter? Of course it matters! But fighting marines has turned out to be manageable, even if they are completly and utterly broken if compared to any other non-splash unit in the game.
Roaches, Immortals...
Many things in the game are "broken" in comparison. It doesn't matter. Hell, if it wasn't for those things, strategies would not exist because there would be no "better decision", as anything would be balanced against everything else.
The only two questions that matter are: "is it fun" and "is it manageable when you play against it". And for Infestors I can only say: They have been a ton of fun to play with/against and spectate in any scenario where they are managable. When they are not managable (like mass infestor lategame), they become boring and frustrating - just like anything that is not managable.
(And believe it or not; without Fungal many things - bio, Phoenix, Mutalisks - might become unmanageable (again) and, therefore, frustrating and boring)
|
On December 26 2012 10:38 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 10:31 convention wrote:On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare. Big J has stated in the past that the problem is with the infestor being massable that causes the problem. Image if HT were massable. Then storms would be super OP, because you can't prevent them. As it stands, protoss players will only have 4-6 HT at a time, because they are just there for storm. If you pick off those 4-6, then no storms get off, whiffed storms are also huge because only 4-6 can even be cast. If you had 20 HT, then a whiffed storm is meaningless. Sniping HT is meaningless because there are so many backup HTs. Same with infestors. Since a zerg player has 30 infestors, you can't snipe them, you can't make them whiff because it doesn't matter. He has so many fungals he can cast. Fungal is fine if infestors are not massable, just as storm is fine because HT are not massable. The reason why infestors can be massed is primarily because of infested terrans, not because of fungal. People wouldn't build 20 infestors just to fungal because they simply wouldn't get that many off in a battle, and it'd be a waste. But, if you can use a few fungals and spend the rest of your energy throwing infested terrans all over the place, suddenly it's extremely powerful and cost effective. This is why I think infested terrans should be removed from the game and replaced with a different spell.
yeah, ty. That's exactly what I think. Minus the part of completely removing ITs. I like them as an harass tool and for midgame rushes (like Leenock or TLO sometimes do and as are quite common in ZvZ). I would just love to have them a non-issue in lategame combats. (like nerf their hatching time, nerf their HP, nerf IT range)
|
On December 26 2012 10:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 10:38 GolemMadness wrote:On December 26 2012 10:31 convention wrote:On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare. Big J has stated in the past that the problem is with the infestor being massable that causes the problem. Image if HT were massable. Then storms would be super OP, because you can't prevent them. As it stands, protoss players will only have 4-6 HT at a time, because they are just there for storm. If you pick off those 4-6, then no storms get off, whiffed storms are also huge because only 4-6 can even be cast. If you had 20 HT, then a whiffed storm is meaningless. Sniping HT is meaningless because there are so many backup HTs. Same with infestors. Since a zerg player has 30 infestors, you can't snipe them, you can't make them whiff because it doesn't matter. He has so many fungals he can cast. Fungal is fine if infestors are not massable, just as storm is fine because HT are not massable. The reason why infestors can be massed is primarily because of infested terrans, not because of fungal. People wouldn't build 20 infestors just to fungal because they simply wouldn't get that many off in a battle, and it'd be a waste. But, if you can use a few fungals and spend the rest of your energy throwing infested terrans all over the place, suddenly it's extremely powerful and cost effective. This is why I think infested terrans should be removed from the game and replaced with a different spell. yeah, ty. That's exactly what I think. Minus the part of completely removing ITs. I like them as an harass tool and for midgame rushes (like Leenock or TLO sometimes do and as are quite common in ZvZ). I would just love to have them a non-issue in lategame combats. (like nerf their hatching time, nerf their HP, nerf IT range)
I feel like nerfing the IT range might actually make infestors non-massable again. The problem is currently the infestors in the back row are also getting off 8 IT as well, so it is very strong offensively. If the range was really low, then IT would be excellent at harassment still, and also good for defense (pre-planting the IT to hold off a push for a few seconds to get your soon-to-hatch army out).
|
On December 26 2012 10:38 GolemMadness wrote:
The reason why infestors can be massed is primarily because of infested terrans, not because of fungal. People wouldn't build 20 infestors just to fungal because they simply wouldn't get that many off in a battle, and it'd be a waste. But, if you can use a few fungals and spend the rest of your energy throwing infested terrans all over the place, suddenly it's extremely powerful and cost effective. This is why I think infested terrans should be removed from the game and replaced with a different spell.
Well, Blizzard probably isn't willing to remove IT after going to the trouble of nerfing it so heavily.
I'm expecting nerfs to FG or nerfs to the unit itself. I am NOT expecting FG to become a slow, nor do I think the projectile speed will be decreased.
|
Maybe increase the infestor supply?
|
On December 26 2012 10:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare. Because I believe that the spell in itself is a great thing. I'm not defending the caster. Infestors in WoL are probably broken. Not blatantly. But they are too strong, probably in a general sense as in "Z is too strong because of Infestors", as well as in a "this unit is too hard to beat" sense. I'm just getting tired of the same old "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" comments. Just look at other stuff in the game: Marines - 50/0/1 unit that can shoot air and ground, second highest dps in the game (highest ranged). Decent HP per cost/supply. Upgrades extremely well (+16%), lowest Tier etc etc... Does it matter? Of course it matters! But fighting marines has turned out to be manageable, even if they are completly and utterly broken if compared to any other non-splash unit in the game. Roaches, Immortals... Many things in the game are "broken" in comparison. It doesn't matter. Hell, if it wasn't for those things, strategies would not exist because there would be no "better decision", as anything would be balanced against everything else. The only two questions that matter are: "is it fun" and "is it manageable when you play against it". And for Infestors I can only say: They have been a ton of fun to play with/against and spectate in any scenario where they are managable. When they are not managable (like mass infestor lategame), they become boring and frustrating - just like anything that is not managable. (And believe it or not; without Fungal many things - bio, Phoenix, Mutalisks - might become unmanageable (again) and, therefore, frustrating and boring)
Generally I agree with what you're saying. The main frustration I have with Fungal is chaining.. The IT nerf was much needed and now thankfully makes the infestor somewhat less massable, especially in the late game. Chain fungal just is so terrible to play with, play against and watch. It's a slow, painfully boring and frustrating death for the unit/units it initially roots. :-!
|
waiting for the new patch...
Fucking annoying to play against Zerg you cant win in lategame...
|
On December 26 2012 10:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare. Because I believe that the spell in itself is a great thing. I'm not defending the caster. Infestors in WoL are probably broken. Not blatantly. But they are too strong, probably in a general sense as in "Z is too strong because of Infestors", as well as in a "this unit is too hard to beat" sense. I'm just getting tired of the same old "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" comments. Just look at other stuff in the game: Marines - 50/0/1 unit that can shoot air and ground, second highest dps in the game (highest ranged). Decent HP per cost/supply. Upgrades extremely well (+16%), lowest Tier etc etc... Does it matter? Of course it matters! But fighting marines has turned out to be manageable, even if they are completly and utterly broken if compared to any other non-splash unit in the game. Roaches, Immortals... Many things in the game are "broken" in comparison. It doesn't matter. Hell, if it wasn't for those things, strategies would not exist because there would be no "better decision", as anything would be balanced against everything else. The only two questions that matter are: "is it fun" and "is it manageable when you play against it". And for Infestors I can only say: They have been a ton of fun to play with/against and spectate in any scenario where they are managable. When they are not managable (like mass infestor lategame), they become boring and frustrating - just like anything that is not managable. (And believe it or not; without Fungal many things - bio, Phoenix, Mutalisks - might become unmanageable (again) and, therefore, frustrating and boring)
I'm pretty glad to see there are others out there with their heads on straight. The whole anti-zerg thing has been blown ridiculously out of proportion to the point that believers are just flat-out retarded and even worse, they're headstrong about being retarded and staying that way. They refuse to budge an inch on their skewed and made-up "facts" and they won't stop saying the same retarded shit over and over again when most of them clearly speak like mineral-leaguers. In other words, they're really not qualified to speak on the game's balance or how it works.
People don't seem to realize how much work the game would need if infestors were nerfed into oblivion. Without them, Z literally cannot survive against T or P past 10 minutes or so. The production will simply be too high and the attacks too frequent while our units are purely retarded without fungal or a huge amount of banes and god knows they aren't worth shit off creep. Those who do not agree wholeheartedly with this do not understand Zerg at a high level. Hell, I'd say they don't even understand Zerg at low masters level much less anything decent.
So what can happen? New units to fix it? New balance to fix it? Something has to happen because this game is built upon nothing but imbalanced crap and hard counters. BW people knew immediately this was a huge flaw in the game's design and now everybody in the SC2 community is finally catching up and realizing BW'ers were right years and years before SC2'ers even recognized that there were problems. We better hope the idiots at Blizzard can get their shit together because they've shown nothing but complete incompetency with WoL at every turn no matter what race you're trying to speak for.
|
I'm back guys, and I wanted to back up what I said with what I believe would be the easiest way to fix fungal (aside from redesigning/removing fungal from the game). This would also show why fungal is such a badly designed spell in order to fix holes that blizzard still couldn't fix in an expansion. You guys ready? Brace yourselves....
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP SOLUTION
Fungal does no damage
Simple as that. Of course, you get the dumb people coming out (I'm looking at you nomyx) and say dumb stuff like "BUT SPELL HAVE TO DO DAMAGE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM COOL AND STUFF". Okay, let me present to you with
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP COMPROMISE
Fungal does a 5 damage, not stackable (if too low, MAXIMUM 10 damage)
You want to keep the utility of fungal without completely removing fungal from the game? You want to keep zergs from massing infestor and rely solely of fungal to do all the work for them? Then just completely nerf the damage aspects of fungal. This way zergs would be forced to actually SUPPORT their infestors with an army in order to truly do damage and getting "chain fungaled" would only really be an annoyance (okay, a really dumb annoyance) but you wouldn't lose all hope as you do with the current fungal. This way, casting fungals would actually be "amazing fungals" because you used the utility of fungal to EARN yourself a superior position, compared to it's current form right now. With fungal doing little damage, you can even BUFF the other aspects of fungal (HE SAID BUFF FUNGAL! HE'S A LUNATIC!!!!!), and return fungal to it's original instant cast 9 range state. Of course, there are a few reason why blizzard doesn't take this solution, and two in particular stick out to me:
DEATHBALLS OF DEATH IN A BALL OF DEATH
It really shocks me when I read comments that does only "30 damage" which is nothing. 30 guaranteed damage is a lot, especially considering the bonus damage that fungal does to armor (I could be wrong about this but w/e). If fungal didn't do any damage, zergs could throw waves and waves and deathballs and still couldn't do any damage due to the ridiculous cost efficiency of deathballs. Usually I would agree with this.... until I started to think about the new units and spells that blizzard added to the game in HOTS. For everything blizzard does wrong, the new options they gave zerg does mitigate this somewhat. With swarm hosts and vipers, zerg can be able to defend against deathballs easier (free ranged unit and the ability to *sigh* "abduct" and lower the range of units). With these tools, zerg could methodically "break" the deathball into manageable pieces and hopefully it would solve the problem of the deathball.
Lack of reliable zerg anti-air AND air units
This is what really gets me mad. For a so called expansion to follow the quality of how Brood War "balanced" the game for Starcraft 1, apparently blizzard still can't fix the thing that has been bothering zerg since starcraft 1, mutalisks in zvz. Having mutalisk vs mutalisk battles would probably be an extremely interesting matchup with skill, speed, and a gambler's logic, all stuff that blizzard clearly doesn't want so we have to remove the option of going mutalisk in zvz. Of course, the problem goes beyond just mutalisks though in zvz. Zerg clearly has the weakest anti-air options AND the weakest air of all the races in SC2. Now before you guys whine to me about the OP broodlords, remember this, before the strength of fungal, broodlords were considered worthless. They were immobile worthless supply that just begged to be killed by anything floating that hit air. And good luck with those corruptors, floating around with their inferior mobility and their terrible range. Zerg air is weak, and it clearly needed options to make it stronger (Not buffing the mutas dammit!). This is why I feel zerg needed a new capital "ship" like the tempest, not protoss. The problems with protoss air wasn't that it was weak, but TRANSITIONING to it left you too exposed to different elements of terran and zerg. What protoss need was a way to transition, or even more utility to their air composition, not an even stronger capital ship. Zerg needs a reliable form of anti-air as well as stronger air comps, and having faster hydras isn't really enough. Maybe if they had a suicide unit that did reliable burst damage to air if it hit *cough cough* or a capital air unit that "evolved" from mutas that did a small aoe spore damage that would slow the attack speed of those air units *cough cough Cough COUGH COUGH*.
That's about it for me really. I don't think blizzard really wants to do anything good for the game, they just seem to want to appeal to the status quo. Sure they appease the masses by giving dumb, gimmicky stuff (LOOK IT'S A CLAW AND IT GRABS STUFF), but I haven't been impressed so far with how they "fixed" the game. I can ask this though, if you really want to fix fungal, NERF THE DAMAGE. All this stuff about making fungal a slow, a projectile, a root then slow, a field, a "sometimes guaranteed but not always damage and slow and root" doesn't address the fact that if you have a spell with a large amount of utility IT DOESN'T NEED TO DO LARGE AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE.
(sorry if I'm overly rude, annoying or insulting. Christmas spirit :D)
|
nerfing fungal damage doesn't solve the issue of it basically removing all micro from fights. even forcefields can be crushed by massive units, dropped over, flown over, blinked past, burrowed under, etc. conc shells are similar.
fungal is the only crowd control spell in ability that hits essentially everything (Ultras being the lone exception), that stops all movement 100%, and which no abilities can mitigate. You can't blink out of fungal, you can't burrow out of it--you can't do anything. And it can be chained.
|
If Fungal were a 95% slow it would make a difference.. Why don't Blizzard just give it a damn go!?
|
On December 26 2012 14:53 winsonsonho wrote:
If Fungal were a 95% slow it would make a difference.. Why don't Blizzard just give it a damn go!?
Why do they talk about making mech work but never change the immortal? Why do they talk about making the game less braindead but keep the colossus? They just like certain units/abilities to have certain things even if they're bad for the game. The root on fungal seems to be one, there's NO WAY they don't know people want it to be a slow.
|
On December 26 2012 10:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare. Because I believe that the spell in itself is a great thing. I'm not defending the caster. Infestors in WoL are probably broken. Not blatantly. But they are too strong, probably in a general sense as in "Z is too strong because of Infestors", as well as in a "this unit is too hard to beat" sense. I'm just getting tired of the same old "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" comments. Just look at other stuff in the game: Marines - 50/0/1 unit that can shoot air and ground, second highest dps in the game (highest ranged). Decent HP per cost/supply. Upgrades extremely well (+16%), lowest Tier etc etc... Does it matter? Of course it matters! But fighting marines has turned out to be manageable, even if they are completly and utterly broken if compared to any other non-splash unit in the game. Roaches, Immortals... Many things in the game are "broken" in comparison. It doesn't matter. Hell, if it wasn't for those things, strategies would not exist because there would be no "better decision", as anything would be balanced against everything else. The only two questions that matter are: "is it fun" and "is it manageable when you play against it". And for Infestors I can only say: They have been a ton of fun to play with/against and spectate in any scenario where they are managable. When they are not managable (like mass infestor lategame), they become boring and frustrating - just like anything that is not managable. (And believe it or not; without Fungal many things - bio, Phoenix, Mutalisks - might become unmanageable (again) and, therefore, frustrating and boring)
Trying to compare infestors to marines and then saying marines are "broken" in the same way doesn't even remotely make sense. If marines were broken they'd be fixed...but they haven't been fixed because they're not broken. The entire design of the infestor is broken. Which is why it needs to fixed.
And on a side note, marines don't have the second highest dps in the game, wtf lol. Every T3 + zealots, hydras, and tanks just to name a few all have higher dps even compared to stimmed marines.
|
what if the infestors nerfs were reverted and it went back to the 9 range, instant cast, upgradeable IT's, but it were moved to hive, and viper moved to lair, maybe lair + spire, or perhaps its own tech building?
thoughts?
|
On December 26 2012 15:09 SolidMoose wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 10:46 Big J wrote:On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare. Because I believe that the spell in itself is a great thing. I'm not defending the caster. Infestors in WoL are probably broken. Not blatantly. But they are too strong, probably in a general sense as in "Z is too strong because of Infestors", as well as in a "this unit is too hard to beat" sense. I'm just getting tired of the same old "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" comments. Just look at other stuff in the game: Marines - 50/0/1 unit that can shoot air and ground, second highest dps in the game (highest ranged). Decent HP per cost/supply. Upgrades extremely well (+16%), lowest Tier etc etc... Does it matter? Of course it matters! But fighting marines has turned out to be manageable, even if they are completly and utterly broken if compared to any other non-splash unit in the game. Roaches, Immortals... Many things in the game are "broken" in comparison. It doesn't matter. Hell, if it wasn't for those things, strategies would not exist because there would be no "better decision", as anything would be balanced against everything else. The only two questions that matter are: "is it fun" and "is it manageable when you play against it". And for Infestors I can only say: They have been a ton of fun to play with/against and spectate in any scenario where they are managable. When they are not managable (like mass infestor lategame), they become boring and frustrating - just like anything that is not managable. (And believe it or not; without Fungal many things - bio, Phoenix, Mutalisks - might become unmanageable (again) and, therefore, frustrating and boring) Trying to compare infestors to marines and then saying marines are "broken" in the same way doesn't even remotely make sense. If marines were broken they'd be fixed...but they haven't been fixed because they're not broken. The entire design of the infestor is broken. Which is why it needs to fixed. And on a side note, marines don't have the second highest dps in the game, wtf lol. Every T3 + zealots, hydras, and tanks just to name a few all have higher dps even compared to stimmed marines.
just commenting on your side note....marines have a MUCH higher dps per food then most units, I'm pretty sure its the highest of any ranged unit per food. Thats why people sometimes complain about marine
Side side note: Having free units based on energy I have always thought was bad.....this inherently makes infestor one of the few units that is never a bad reason not to have more. Every unit should have a con when it comes to massing them. Infestor does not
|
On December 26 2012 10:38 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 10:31 convention wrote:On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare. Big J has stated in the past that the problem is with the infestor being massable that causes the problem. Image if HT were massable. Then storms would be super OP, because you can't prevent them. As it stands, protoss players will only have 4-6 HT at a time, because they are just there for storm. If you pick off those 4-6, then no storms get off, whiffed storms are also huge because only 4-6 can even be cast. If you had 20 HT, then a whiffed storm is meaningless. Sniping HT is meaningless because there are so many backup HTs. Same with infestors. Since a zerg player has 30 infestors, you can't snipe them, you can't make them whiff because it doesn't matter. He has so many fungals he can cast. Fungal is fine if infestors are not massable, just as storm is fine because HT are not massable. The reason why infestors can be massed is primarily because of infested terrans, not because of fungal. People wouldn't build 20 infestors just to fungal because they simply wouldn't get that many off in a battle, and it'd be a waste. But, if you can use a few fungals and spend the rest of your energy throwing infested terrans all over the place, suddenly it's extremely powerful and cost effective. This is why I think infested terrans should be removed from the game and replaced with a different spell.
That is exactly the right reason. The Infestor has TOO MANY GOOD SPELLS concentrated on one unit.
Just look at BW ... would anyone have "massed Dark Archons" just to get lots of Feedback against Ghosts or Medics? Or how about Mind Control? That wouldn't work. How about Ghosts then? Massing them solely for Lockdown? That might be a powerful spell, but building too many Ghosts will be "overkill" and since production capability AND economy in BW was smaller you didnt really have the option of mass producing anyways. You couldnt just warp in a bunch of High Templars with enough energy to use Psi Storm instantly either ...
For a solution there is either the complete redesign / redistribution of spells to make them far less effective in massed situations OR the good old culprits of "production speed boosts" and "economic boosts" have to be removed so there are fewer units on the battlefield in general.
On December 26 2012 17:44 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 15:09 SolidMoose wrote:On December 26 2012 10:46 Big J wrote:On December 26 2012 10:21 Crawdad wrote:On December 26 2012 09:57 Big J wrote:Just a question of perspective... Not to mention it is just wrong to say that "fungal" is broken. I haven't seen anybody build "a fungal". Just imagine this super imbalanced "fungal" on a 200supply unit that cost 10000000000000resources. Fungal would still be exactly the same, hence, imbalanced according to you. Sorry, but I just have to troll such comments as Crawdads... Big J, why are you defending this spell and its caster. It's obvious that the strength of Fungal would be warranted on a unit such as the one you described, but it's on a 100/150/2 unit that is easily massable and is faster than every other WoL spellcaster. Energy upgrade, Infested Terrans, burrow move, bla bla bla. It's tedious to list everything that is wrong with this unit. I'm not saying it can't be fixed, because it can. But right now, it makes vZ a nightmare. Because I believe that the spell in itself is a great thing. I'm not defending the caster. Infestors in WoL are probably broken. Not blatantly. But they are too strong, probably in a general sense as in "Z is too strong because of Infestors", as well as in a "this unit is too hard to beat" sense. I'm just getting tired of the same old "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN" comments. Just look at other stuff in the game: Marines - 50/0/1 unit that can shoot air and ground, second highest dps in the game (highest ranged). Decent HP per cost/supply. Upgrades extremely well (+16%), lowest Tier etc etc... Does it matter? Of course it matters! But fighting marines has turned out to be manageable, even if they are completly and utterly broken if compared to any other non-splash unit in the game. Roaches, Immortals... Many things in the game are "broken" in comparison. It doesn't matter. Hell, if it wasn't for those things, strategies would not exist because there would be no "better decision", as anything would be balanced against everything else. The only two questions that matter are: "is it fun" and "is it manageable when you play against it". And for Infestors I can only say: They have been a ton of fun to play with/against and spectate in any scenario where they are managable. When they are not managable (like mass infestor lategame), they become boring and frustrating - just like anything that is not managable. (And believe it or not; without Fungal many things - bio, Phoenix, Mutalisks - might become unmanageable (again) and, therefore, frustrating and boring) Trying to compare infestors to marines and then saying marines are "broken" in the same way doesn't even remotely make sense. If marines were broken they'd be fixed...but they haven't been fixed because they're not broken. The entire design of the infestor is broken. Which is why it needs to fixed. And on a side note, marines don't have the second highest dps in the game, wtf lol. Every T3 + zealots, hydras, and tanks just to name a few all have higher dps even compared to stimmed marines. just commenting on your side note....marines have a MUCH higher dps per food then most units, I'm pretty sure its the highest of any ranged unit per food. Thats why people sometimes complain about marine Side side note: Having free units based on energy I have always thought was bad.....this inherently makes infestor one of the few units that is never a bad reason not to have more. Every unit should have a con when it comes to massing them. Infestor does not
Before the nerf Infested Terrans had the combat ability of stimmed Marines AND were affected by upgrades; now they are simply stimmed Marines without upgrades. Now lets look at the Infestor: 2 supply and a maximum energy capability of 200, which means 8 Infested Terrans per Infestor or the damage equivalent of 8 supply in Marines.
Marines DONT "charge up" their attacks during the time there is no fighting to have a short time - which is enough for most fights and/or to kill a Command Center/Nexus/Hatchery - of up to FOUR TIMES their food supply in damage potential, thats what Infestors do! So this "comparison" makes it pretty much clear why the Infested Terran (and consequently the Infestor with three terrible spells concentrated on one unit) is a terrible terrible spell ... even after the nerf.
|
the problem is with infested terrans. you cannot mass infestors just for fungals, they will just die. Seriously, just remove infested terrans. switch to something you can cast on friendlies.
|
On December 26 2012 18:34 Zaurus wrote:
the problem is with infested terrans. you cannot mass infestors just for fungals, they will just die. Seriously, just remove infested terrans. switch to something you can cast on friendlies.
change NP into dark swarm!!!!
+ change fungal to a no damage slow spell.
--> infestor is now a support unit: dark swarm for your ranged units and fungal + dark swarm in some way for your melee units.
IT are much MUCH worse after the nerfs they got. they do literally 1-3 DPS to +3 armor units in lategame which is fine. even 8 IT from an infestor does not do much damage especially since now 2-3 eggs die. so its 5 IT from the 8 surviving which is 5-15 DPS. no problem at all. if its still too much nerf IT damage by 1 so they are literally completely useless lategame.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
