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On December 25 2012 22:38 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 22:20 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 22:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 21:22 nomyx wrote:On December 25 2012 18:11 Rabiator wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ... The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet. You can minimize the damage by splitting your units up. If you don't micro against storm it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against banelings it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against fungal it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. Stop with the repetition already. What everybody is trying to tell you is that the LOCKDOWN of fungal is what differentiates it from banes, storm, archon, colossus and other splash damage. One does not have to pre-split against storm and banes, although it helps if you do. With fungal, you absolutely have to. And it's not "my micro" versus "his macro". It's constant splitting of units (a very hard skill to master that tips the resources "time" and "attention" in zerg favour) versus an instant cast. You don't seem to realize the difference between those two types of micro. () If you get 1-2 storms directly on top of clumped bio you instantly win in PvT (assuming an equal situation). I don't see the difference at all, apart from staying out of range of templar being easier, due to the lower speed of those and ghosts being really strong in TvP, so you actually have a really good anti templar unit on the battlefield per default. On top of that, Infestors are simply more useful than Templar due to ITs, hence, there are more Infestors on the battlefield. tldr; the outcome of storms on bio is the same as in fungal on bio... the difference is that templar are more manageable than Infestors. If you are hit with Storms you can still micro AFTER THE SPELL STARTS, so you can use your bio army to the maximum efficiency until that point. If you are faced with Infestors you are basically saying that you have to keep your units PRE-SPREAD all the time, which minimizes their efficiency. So the THREAT of being fungaled is reducing the efficiency of the opponent already. That is a HUGE difference. If you dont understand the huge difference between the two now then I cant help you any more ...
yeah, you can micro. You are still going to lose horribly.
Watch the Dragon "storm dodge micro" (as an example of how to micro against storm):
0:12 Dragon stims
0:12-0:14 Dragon splits units at "spot A" - presplit
0:14 a storm hits spot A
0:15-0:17 Dragon forms a concave while retreating from the Templar - presplit
0:18-0:20 Dragon runs splits his troops at "spot B", "spot C", "spot D" - presplit
0:19-20 three storms hit "spot B", "spot C", "spot D"
0-20-0:35 dragon keeps on presplitting his units over and over again, but not storms are casted
...
None of his moves where "reactions" to storms (hence, actual dodging is an extremly small factor). The fight would look extremly similar if the templar had casted fungals instead of storms.
The difference is that you have way less time to do it against more fungals.
-) Infestors are significantly faster than Templar. (even more so on creep)
-) Infestors are significantly more (because of their high usefulness through ITs) than Templar, hence a failed fungal is not as much of a problem.
-) Infestors can come in cloaked.
And I haven't even considered here how good ghosts are against Templar/Protoss, which make HTs even more managable.
On December 25 2012 22:52 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 22:44 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 22:26 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 22:20 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 22:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 21:22 nomyx wrote:On December 25 2012 18:11 Rabiator wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:
[quote]
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary.
I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ... The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet. You can minimize the damage by splitting your units up. If you don't micro against storm it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against banelings it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against fungal it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. Stop with the repetition already. What everybody is trying to tell you is that the LOCKDOWN of fungal is what differentiates it from banes, storm, archon, colossus and other splash damage. One does not have to pre-split against storm and banes, although it helps if you do. With fungal, you absolutely have to. And it's not "my micro" versus "his macro". It's constant splitting of units (a very hard skill to master that tips the resources "time" and "attention" in zerg favour) versus an instant cast. You don't seem to realize the difference between those two types of micro. () If you get 1-2 storms directly on top of clumped bio you instantly win in PvT (assuming an equal situation). I don't see the difference at all, apart from staying out of range of templar being easier, due to the lower speed of those and ghosts being really strong in TvP, so you actually have a really good anti templar unit on the battlefield per default. On top of that, Infestors are simply more useful than Templar due to ITs, hence, there are more Infestors on the battlefield. tldr; the outcome of storms on bio is the same as in fungal on bio... the difference is that templar are more manageable than Infestors. Did you really put a TLDR on 4 lines of text? What the previous guy was saying is that infestors are exactly the same as HT and banelings. I'm saying what you're saying, they are much more difficult to deal with than other splash damage units (HT and colossus come close). But you're also neglecting one bit. If your storm hits the edge of a bio-ball, you have a good chance to run out. It's only very good storms that do massive damage (as it should be). But ny unit caught in fungal is dead due to chain fungals and root. It does not matter if it's a very good fungal or not. If it hits anything at all, that unit is dead. Also, it's commendable that you point out the ghost-HT dynamic in PvT. It's a healthy micro v micro situation that is essentially missing in TvZ. Not any unit caught in a fungal is dead. If you only hit 2-3 "low tier" units with a fungal, it's absolutly not worth it to chain fungal. Especially if they are supported by siege tanks that make you take hits on Infestors anytime you fungal. The problem with the "Infestorcounter" Siege Tank in TvZ is that unlike Templar they are not manually controllable what to shoot most of the time. Hence, they will do a lot of good work on low tier stuff, but often the Infestors will still be able to do their work. The 8range fungal and the IT nerfs are the exactly right direction where to go with the Infestor. I'd hope that the next steps in WoL are a speed nerf to 2.0 and some extra nerf on ITs (I'd prefer -2damage, rather than no upgrades, which is very unintentional) and then just transfer the WoL Infestor to HotS with a 10to15 speed projectile and maybe 9range if 8doesn't work at all with the projectile. Also a sight buff to all basic units with only 9range to 10range would be healthy for the game to allow for better reactions against fast and longrange units. You missed the point. Imagine a storm. It has a radius of let's say 10 arbitrary units. If your bio ball is within 2 of the center point, all your marines will die and marauders/medivacs take massive damage. If your bio ball is within 2 of the outer radius, you can quickly stim out of the storm and take very little damage. With fungal, whether your units are 2 of the center or the edge, the effect is the same due to root. What this means is that (and this remains the case after all the suggestions you listed) that terrans have to always pre-split. This is costly in terms of time, attention and weakens the effectiveness of the bio-ball when fighting the rest of the Z army. In fact, the Z does not need to build a single infestor to get an advantage in a ZvT MU if the terran has to always pre-split after the mid-game. There could be infestors lurking the in the FOW.
As in the other reply. Yes, you will have to presplit. That's how you combat such units. Just that with the listed suggestions, presplitting becomes more of an "in-combat" task and less of "siege up, split units, try to start an engagement with slow movements forward". Something that is done upon seeing the unit approaching, not upon expecting the unit to be there.
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Look, please just reread the arguments. We are not talking about everything else except what we wrote.
The main points is:
You can have a bad storm because the effectiveness of a storm on the unit depends on how close to the center of the storm a unit is. This mechanic is missing with fungals.
This means that dodging (seeing a storm land, and running out of it) is not a game ending situation against storm. It's only game-ending if it was a good storm.
All of the other things things mentioned, also by you, means that you can avoid pre-splitting in a number of situations. But if you keep root on infestors, without constant pre-split you can still lose a game in an instant. The other factors of infestors are just icing on the cake (not from a P point of view, mind you. But we are talking TvZ here).
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On December 25 2012 23:13 Ghanburighan wrote:
Look, please just reread the arguments. We are not talking about everything else except what we wrote.
The main points is:
You can have a bad storm because the effectiveness of a storm on the unit depends on how close to the center of the storm a unit is. This mechanic is missing with fungals.
This means that dodging (seeing a storm land, and running out of it) is not a game ending situation against storm. It's only game-ending if it was a good storm.
All of the other things things mentioned, also by you, means that you can avoid pre-splitting in a number of situations. But if you keep root on infestors, without constant pre-split you can still lose a game in an instant. The other factors of infestors are just icing on the cake (not from a P point of view, mind you. But we are talking TvZ here).
But where is the difference? Just think about it the other way around... Let's say Templars would be superduper useful in any amounts and Infestors were mostly limited to casting fungals:
If I have mass Templar and I hit a bad storm, I just cast another one, two, three... eventually I will have hit enough to win.
If I have few Infestors and I hit a bad fungal, I will not cast another one on the few units it hit, because I will lose the game if I rely on crucial fungals but spend my whole energy killing 3 marines and 2 marauders.
Then add to that all the things that I wrote about how much easier it is to presplit against templar than against infestors and reverse that as well...
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On December 25 2012 23:21 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 23:13 Ghanburighan wrote:
Look, please just reread the arguments. We are not talking about everything else except what we wrote.
The main points is:
You can have a bad storm because the effectiveness of a storm on the unit depends on how close to the center of the storm a unit is. This mechanic is missing with fungals.
This means that dodging (seeing a storm land, and running out of it) is not a game ending situation against storm. It's only game-ending if it was a good storm.
All of the other things things mentioned, also by you, means that you can avoid pre-splitting in a number of situations. But if you keep root on infestors, without constant pre-split you can still lose a game in an instant. The other factors of infestors are just icing on the cake (not from a P point of view, mind you. But we are talking TvZ here).
But where is the difference? Just think about it the other way around... Let's say Templars would be superduper useful in any amounts and Infestors were mostly limited to casting fungals: If I have mass Templar and I hit a bad storm, I just cast another one, two, three... eventually I will have hit enough to win. If I have few Infestors and I hit a bad fungal, I will not cast another one on the few units it hit, because I will lose the game if I rely on crucial fungals but spend my whole energy killing 3 marines and 2 marauders. Then add to that all the things that I wrote about how much easier it is to presplit against templar than against infestors and reverse that as well...
BigJ, I've seen you post a long time now. You can in fact understand arguments and respond to them. For some reason you're not doing so now. Take a break and reread what we wrote, please.
One of my first sentences here accepted that infestors are more useful than HT (hence, the icing). But infestors are still great just for fungals in TvZ. Your suggestions regarding range, speed of infestor and IT just do not change the spell that's the main problem here. And the main problem is that every square pixel of a fungal is equally effective, while that's not the case for other splash damage.
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On December 25 2012 23:30 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 23:21 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 23:13 Ghanburighan wrote:
Look, please just reread the arguments. We are not talking about everything else except what we wrote.
The main points is:
You can have a bad storm because the effectiveness of a storm on the unit depends on how close to the center of the storm a unit is. This mechanic is missing with fungals.
This means that dodging (seeing a storm land, and running out of it) is not a game ending situation against storm. It's only game-ending if it was a good storm.
All of the other things things mentioned, also by you, means that you can avoid pre-splitting in a number of situations. But if you keep root on infestors, without constant pre-split you can still lose a game in an instant. The other factors of infestors are just icing on the cake (not from a P point of view, mind you. But we are talking TvZ here).
But where is the difference? Just think about it the other way around... Let's say Templars would be superduper useful in any amounts and Infestors were mostly limited to casting fungals: If I have mass Templar and I hit a bad storm, I just cast another one, two, three... eventually I will have hit enough to win. If I have few Infestors and I hit a bad fungal, I will not cast another one on the few units it hit, because I will lose the game if I rely on crucial fungals but spend my whole energy killing 3 marines and 2 marauders. Then add to that all the things that I wrote about how much easier it is to presplit against templar than against infestors and reverse that as well... BigJ, I've seen you post a long time now. You can in fact understand arguments and respond to them. For some reason you're not doing so now. Take a break and reread what we wrote, please. One of my first sentences here accepted that infestors are more useful than HT (hence, the icing). But infestors are still great just for fungals in TvZ. Your suggestions regarding range, speed of infestor and IT just do not change the spell that's the main problem here. And the main problem is that every square pixel of a fungal is equally effective, while that's not the case for other splash damage.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but as far as I read, your arguement was that "fungaled units are dead".
Because every unit in the game does survive a single fungal, I was assuming you are talking about chain-fungals. You even explicitly mentioned chain-fungals being the problem:
But ny unit caught in fungal is dead due to chain fungals and root. It does not matter if it's a very good fungal or not. If it hits anything at all, that unit is dead.
If, however, your arguement is that units that are hit by a single fungal take the full 30(to40) damage no matter what, then I got to tell you that this is probably a similar average damage to what units take that get hit by a storm and microed out afterwards. All of that with less burst (so they die slower, hence combat longer).
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On December 25 2012 23:40 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 23:30 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 23:21 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 23:13 Ghanburighan wrote:
Look, please just reread the arguments. We are not talking about everything else except what we wrote.
The main points is:
You can have a bad storm because the effectiveness of a storm on the unit depends on how close to the center of the storm a unit is. This mechanic is missing with fungals.
This means that dodging (seeing a storm land, and running out of it) is not a game ending situation against storm. It's only game-ending if it was a good storm.
All of the other things things mentioned, also by you, means that you can avoid pre-splitting in a number of situations. But if you keep root on infestors, without constant pre-split you can still lose a game in an instant. The other factors of infestors are just icing on the cake (not from a P point of view, mind you. But we are talking TvZ here).
But where is the difference? Just think about it the other way around... Let's say Templars would be superduper useful in any amounts and Infestors were mostly limited to casting fungals: If I have mass Templar and I hit a bad storm, I just cast another one, two, three... eventually I will have hit enough to win. If I have few Infestors and I hit a bad fungal, I will not cast another one on the few units it hit, because I will lose the game if I rely on crucial fungals but spend my whole energy killing 3 marines and 2 marauders. Then add to that all the things that I wrote about how much easier it is to presplit against templar than against infestors and reverse that as well... BigJ, I've seen you post a long time now. You can in fact understand arguments and respond to them. For some reason you're not doing so now. Take a break and reread what we wrote, please. One of my first sentences here accepted that infestors are more useful than HT (hence, the icing). But infestors are still great just for fungals in TvZ. Your suggestions regarding range, speed of infestor and IT just do not change the spell that's the main problem here. And the main problem is that every square pixel of a fungal is equally effective, while that's not the case for other splash damage. Sorry if I'm missing something, but as far as I read, your arguement was that "fungaled units are dead". Because every unit in the game does survive a single fungal, I was assuming you are talking about chain-fungals. You even explicitly mentioned chain-fungals being the problem: Show nested quote +But ny unit caught in fungal is dead due to chain fungals and root. It does not matter if it's a very good fungal or not. If it hits anything at all, that unit is dead. If, however, your argument is that units that are hit by a single fungal take the full 30(to 40) damage no matter what, then I got to tell you that this is probably a similar average damage to what units take that get hit by a storm and microed out afterwards. All of that with less burst (so they die slower, hence combat longer).
Good, we're on the right track. Yes, the first part is the latter. Any unit caught in a fungal takes 100% fungal damage. This is unlike storm, although the damage is roughly the same (if you micro out the edge of a storm).
As you can see, there are already a number of interesting variables to thinking about storm. Position of units within the radius of the cast, choices of the terran, etc. The main point is, if a meaningful group of units is in range of a fungal, as long as the Z does not completely miss the cast (how could that even happen?), those units take damage and root.
So, what would a terran get to do if their units take, let's say 30 damage, from a storm? They can, for example, either keep fighting or retreat. There are actually a number of decisions for the terran to make.
Against fungal, what happens? Well, those units just sit there. There's the threat of a chain fungal, other units can overwhelm that group (especially banelings - wasn't that the idea behind fungal-bane in the beginning?), etc. Any retreat can occur 4 seconds later. This is what makes fungal so much more potent alone.
Root forces maximum damage, takes away the terran side of micro for 4 seconds and allows the Z to utilize a number of new strategies (banes into fungaled units).
Now add on top of this, all of your valid points about the utility of infestors... What I'm saying is that fungal is by far the strongest aoe in the game. It would be great even if it were the only spell on the infestor, or much more difficult to land.
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On December 25 2012 23:59 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 23:40 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 23:30 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 23:21 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 23:13 Ghanburighan wrote:
Look, please just reread the arguments. We are not talking about everything else except what we wrote.
The main points is:
You can have a bad storm because the effectiveness of a storm on the unit depends on how close to the center of the storm a unit is. This mechanic is missing with fungals.
This means that dodging (seeing a storm land, and running out of it) is not a game ending situation against storm. It's only game-ending if it was a good storm.
All of the other things things mentioned, also by you, means that you can avoid pre-splitting in a number of situations. But if you keep root on infestors, without constant pre-split you can still lose a game in an instant. The other factors of infestors are just icing on the cake (not from a P point of view, mind you. But we are talking TvZ here).
But where is the difference? Just think about it the other way around... Let's say Templars would be superduper useful in any amounts and Infestors were mostly limited to casting fungals: If I have mass Templar and I hit a bad storm, I just cast another one, two, three... eventually I will have hit enough to win. If I have few Infestors and I hit a bad fungal, I will not cast another one on the few units it hit, because I will lose the game if I rely on crucial fungals but spend my whole energy killing 3 marines and 2 marauders. Then add to that all the things that I wrote about how much easier it is to presplit against templar than against infestors and reverse that as well... BigJ, I've seen you post a long time now. You can in fact understand arguments and respond to them. For some reason you're not doing so now. Take a break and reread what we wrote, please. One of my first sentences here accepted that infestors are more useful than HT (hence, the icing). But infestors are still great just for fungals in TvZ. Your suggestions regarding range, speed of infestor and IT just do not change the spell that's the main problem here. And the main problem is that every square pixel of a fungal is equally effective, while that's not the case for other splash damage. Sorry if I'm missing something, but as far as I read, your arguement was that "fungaled units are dead". Because every unit in the game does survive a single fungal, I was assuming you are talking about chain-fungals. You even explicitly mentioned chain-fungals being the problem: But ny unit caught in fungal is dead due to chain fungals and root. It does not matter if it's a very good fungal or not. If it hits anything at all, that unit is dead. If, however, your argument is that units that are hit by a single fungal take the full 30(to 40) damage no matter what, then I got to tell you that this is probably a similar average damage to what units take that get hit by a storm and microed out afterwards. All of that with less burst (so they die slower, hence combat longer). Good, we're on the right track. Yes, the first part is the latter. Any unit caught in a fungal takes 100% fungal damage. This is unlike storm, although the damage is roughly the same (if you micro out the edge of a storm). As you can see, there are already a number of interesting variables to thinking about storm. Position of units within the radius of the cast, choices of the terran, etc. The main point is, if a meaningful group of units is in range of a fungal, as long as the Z does not completely miss the cast (how could that even happen?), those units take damage and root. So, what would a terran get to do if their units take, let's say 30 damage, from a storm? They can, for example, either keep fighting or retreat. There are actually a number of decisions for the terran to make. Against fungal, what happens? Well, those units just sit there. There's the threat of a chain fungal, other units can overwhelm that group (especially banelings - wasn't that the idea behind fungal-bane in the beginning?), etc. Any retreat can occur 4 seconds later. This is what makes fungal so much more potent alone. Root forces maximum damage, takes away the terran side of micro for 4 seconds and allows the Z to utilize a number of new strategies (banes into fungaled units). Now add on top of this, all of your valid points about the utility of infestors... What I'm saying is that fungal is by far the strongest aoe in the game. It would be great even if it were the only spell on the infestor, or much more difficult to land.
Well, but how is this strength not directly in correlated to the number of Infestors I have?
Point is, if I hit good storms I'm likely to win the combat no matter what. If I hit good fungals I'm likely to win the combat, no matter what. That's how those spells work.
Of course you can micro out of a storm, take the 30damage and be proud of your micro. If I have 20templar I don't care! I'm gonna insta-storm any unit that leaves a storm with a new storm and turn your micro merely into an assurence that every storm will "only" be as potent as a Fungal would be. Whether or not you can or cannot move does not make a difference.
The problem is Infestor numbers and it gets emphasized by managability during a combat.
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On December 26 2012 00:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 23:59 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 23:40 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 23:30 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 23:21 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 23:13 Ghanburighan wrote:
Look, please just reread the arguments. We are not talking about everything else except what we wrote.
The main points is:
You can have a bad storm because the effectiveness of a storm on the unit depends on how close to the center of the storm a unit is. This mechanic is missing with fungals.
This means that dodging (seeing a storm land, and running out of it) is not a game ending situation against storm. It's only game-ending if it was a good storm.
All of the other things things mentioned, also by you, means that you can avoid pre-splitting in a number of situations. But if you keep root on infestors, without constant pre-split you can still lose a game in an instant. The other factors of infestors are just icing on the cake (not from a P point of view, mind you. But we are talking TvZ here).
But where is the difference? Just think about it the other way around... Let's say Templars would be superduper useful in any amounts and Infestors were mostly limited to casting fungals: If I have mass Templar and I hit a bad storm, I just cast another one, two, three... eventually I will have hit enough to win. If I have few Infestors and I hit a bad fungal, I will not cast another one on the few units it hit, because I will lose the game if I rely on crucial fungals but spend my whole energy killing 3 marines and 2 marauders. Then add to that all the things that I wrote about how much easier it is to presplit against templar than against infestors and reverse that as well... BigJ, I've seen you post a long time now. You can in fact understand arguments and respond to them. For some reason you're not doing so now. Take a break and reread what we wrote, please. One of my first sentences here accepted that infestors are more useful than HT (hence, the icing). But infestors are still great just for fungals in TvZ. Your suggestions regarding range, speed of infestor and IT just do not change the spell that's the main problem here. And the main problem is that every square pixel of a fungal is equally effective, while that's not the case for other splash damage. Sorry if I'm missing something, but as far as I read, your arguement was that "fungaled units are dead". Because every unit in the game does survive a single fungal, I was assuming you are talking about chain-fungals. You even explicitly mentioned chain-fungals being the problem: But ny unit caught in fungal is dead due to chain fungals and root. It does not matter if it's a very good fungal or not. If it hits anything at all, that unit is dead. If, however, your argument is that units that are hit by a single fungal take the full 30(to 40) damage no matter what, then I got to tell you that this is probably a similar average damage to what units take that get hit by a storm and microed out afterwards. All of that with less burst (so they die slower, hence combat longer). Good, we're on the right track. Yes, the first part is the latter. Any unit caught in a fungal takes 100% fungal damage. This is unlike storm, although the damage is roughly the same (if you micro out the edge of a storm). As you can see, there are already a number of interesting variables to thinking about storm. Position of units within the radius of the cast, choices of the terran, etc. The main point is, if a meaningful group of units is in range of a fungal, as long as the Z does not completely miss the cast (how could that even happen?), those units take damage and root. So, what would a terran get to do if their units take, let's say 30 damage, from a storm? They can, for example, either keep fighting or retreat. There are actually a number of decisions for the terran to make. Against fungal, what happens? Well, those units just sit there. There's the threat of a chain fungal, other units can overwhelm that group (especially banelings - wasn't that the idea behind fungal-bane in the beginning?), etc. Any retreat can occur 4 seconds later. This is what makes fungal so much more potent alone. Root forces maximum damage, takes away the terran side of micro for 4 seconds and allows the Z to utilize a number of new strategies (banes into fungaled units). Now add on top of this, all of your valid points about the utility of infestors... What I'm saying is that fungal is by far the strongest aoe in the game. It would be great even if it were the only spell on the infestor, or much more difficult to land. Well, but how is this strength not directly in correlated to the number of Infestors I have? Point is, if I hit good storms I'm likely to win the combat no matter what. If I hit good fungals I'm likely to win the combat, no matter what. That's how those spells work. Of course you can micro out of a storm, take the 30damage and be proud of your micro. If I have 20templar I don't care! I'm gonna insta-storm any unit that leaves a storm with a new storm and turn your micro merely into an assurence that every storm will "only" be as potent as a Fungal would be. Whether or not you can or cannot move does not make a difference. The problem is Infestor numbers and it gets emphasized by managability during a combat.
You're thinking in terms of balance. Which isnt the issue here at all. The issue is in design. If you hit a good storm, your units take a lot of damage, and you can decide if you want to retreat, keep fighting, micro around etc. If you hit a good fungal, your units just sit there and die.. You take any and all control from your opponent. You can't micro against it, and it looks boring. That plus the spell in itself is so versatile exactly because of this root. There isn't a single situation where infestors isn't the right choice
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On December 26 2012 00:55 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 00:28 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 23:59 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 23:40 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 23:30 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 23:21 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 23:13 Ghanburighan wrote:
Look, please just reread the arguments. We are not talking about everything else except what we wrote.
The main points is:
You can have a bad storm because the effectiveness of a storm on the unit depends on how close to the center of the storm a unit is. This mechanic is missing with fungals.
This means that dodging (seeing a storm land, and running out of it) is not a game ending situation against storm. It's only game-ending if it was a good storm.
All of the other things things mentioned, also by you, means that you can avoid pre-splitting in a number of situations. But if you keep root on infestors, without constant pre-split you can still lose a game in an instant. The other factors of infestors are just icing on the cake (not from a P point of view, mind you. But we are talking TvZ here).
But where is the difference? Just think about it the other way around... Let's say Templars would be superduper useful in any amounts and Infestors were mostly limited to casting fungals: If I have mass Templar and I hit a bad storm, I just cast another one, two, three... eventually I will have hit enough to win. If I have few Infestors and I hit a bad fungal, I will not cast another one on the few units it hit, because I will lose the game if I rely on crucial fungals but spend my whole energy killing 3 marines and 2 marauders. Then add to that all the things that I wrote about how much easier it is to presplit against templar than against infestors and reverse that as well... BigJ, I've seen you post a long time now. You can in fact understand arguments and respond to them. For some reason you're not doing so now. Take a break and reread what we wrote, please. One of my first sentences here accepted that infestors are more useful than HT (hence, the icing). But infestors are still great just for fungals in TvZ. Your suggestions regarding range, speed of infestor and IT just do not change the spell that's the main problem here. And the main problem is that every square pixel of a fungal is equally effective, while that's not the case for other splash damage. Sorry if I'm missing something, but as far as I read, your arguement was that "fungaled units are dead". Because every unit in the game does survive a single fungal, I was assuming you are talking about chain-fungals. You even explicitly mentioned chain-fungals being the problem: But ny unit caught in fungal is dead due to chain fungals and root. It does not matter if it's a very good fungal or not. If it hits anything at all, that unit is dead. If, however, your argument is that units that are hit by a single fungal take the full 30(to 40) damage no matter what, then I got to tell you that this is probably a similar average damage to what units take that get hit by a storm and microed out afterwards. All of that with less burst (so they die slower, hence combat longer). Good, we're on the right track. Yes, the first part is the latter. Any unit caught in a fungal takes 100% fungal damage. This is unlike storm, although the damage is roughly the same (if you micro out the edge of a storm). As you can see, there are already a number of interesting variables to thinking about storm. Position of units within the radius of the cast, choices of the terran, etc. The main point is, if a meaningful group of units is in range of a fungal, as long as the Z does not completely miss the cast (how could that even happen?), those units take damage and root. So, what would a terran get to do if their units take, let's say 30 damage, from a storm? They can, for example, either keep fighting or retreat. There are actually a number of decisions for the terran to make. Against fungal, what happens? Well, those units just sit there. There's the threat of a chain fungal, other units can overwhelm that group (especially banelings - wasn't that the idea behind fungal-bane in the beginning?), etc. Any retreat can occur 4 seconds later. This is what makes fungal so much more potent alone. Root forces maximum damage, takes away the terran side of micro for 4 seconds and allows the Z to utilize a number of new strategies (banes into fungaled units). Now add on top of this, all of your valid points about the utility of infestors... What I'm saying is that fungal is by far the strongest aoe in the game. It would be great even if it were the only spell on the infestor, or much more difficult to land. Well, but how is this strength not directly in correlated to the number of Infestors I have? Point is, if I hit good storms I'm likely to win the combat no matter what. If I hit good fungals I'm likely to win the combat, no matter what. That's how those spells work. Of course you can micro out of a storm, take the 30damage and be proud of your micro. If I have 20templar I don't care! I'm gonna insta-storm any unit that leaves a storm with a new storm and turn your micro merely into an assurence that every storm will "only" be as potent as a Fungal would be. Whether or not you can or cannot move does not make a difference. The problem is Infestor numbers and it gets emphasized by managability during a combat. You're thinking in terms of balance. Which isnt the issue here at all. The issue is in design. If you hit a good storm, your units take a lot of damage, and you can decide if you want to retreat, keep fighting, micro around etc. If you hit a good fungal, your units just sit there and die.. You take any and all control from your opponent. You can't micro against it, and it looks boring. That plus the spell in itself is so versatile exactly because of this root. There isn't a single situation where infestors isn't the right choice
Single good fungal hits:
Fungal hits, a pack of units cannot move anymore and takes damage over 4seconds. I can try to run home with a disadvantage --> leaving the rooted units to probably die. I can try to stay, even though I'm already weakened.
Multiple good fungal hit:
Fungals hit. I get rolled over.
Single good storm hits:
Storm hits, a few units die the rest get pulled out of the storm heavily damaged. I can try to run home with a disadvantage --> losses and damaged units. I can try to stay even though I'm already weakened.
Multiple good storms hit:
Storms hit, I lose on the retreat or I get rolled over in the combat.
In a real game, the difference between good fungals and good storms in a combat is nonexistent. Apart from the amount (due to overly useful infestors) and that it is way harder to avoid getting hit by fungals with micro that in both scenarios is being done BEFORE they are costed (due to higher speed of infestors, burrow movement and ghost/Templar dynamic compared to Tank/Infestor dynamic).
But in the end they lead to the same outcome and require similar control to be avoided.
Seriously, many good (RTS) games work with roots and ensnares and freezes and all that stuff all the time. They even use even stronger tools: 1shot attacks and spells. And there is absolutely nothing wrong about it by "design".
Just imagine any situation with low infestor count. Like, let's say TvZ, zerg goes 3hatch into ling/Infestor and gets attack by a marine/tank force, just after the first 5infestors popped. Zerg only has 5fungals at that time. You cannot chain fungal a lot with that. Of course you can punish bad positioning and clumping heavily. But you do the same with storm. Hell, you do the same with a fuckton of things in this game.
You really cannot tell me that "rooting" is an issue at this point. If you run, I will catch you anyways, because I'm faster. If you stay, your micro should be to avoid clumping, just like your micro against storm, banelings is to avoid clumping.
Now imagine that combat. A good fungal catches some units during the combat. Do you really think your main worry is that those 10marines cannot run anymore now? You still can do whatever you want with anything else, so you still micro 75% of your army at that point and the other 25% still participate in the combat.
The only problems with fungal occur, when most of your army can be caught in fungals. And that is only possible if a zerg has mass infestors (1) or if you clump heavily (2).
(1) being a strategical problem of the game. A direct result of how versatile the Infestor is.
(2) being a mistake that would cost you the game against storms as well. Though as said, Templar are more manageable.
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Well, if Big J makes the argument that infestors are too easy to get en masse then the reasonable solution is to make them more expensive/higher in tech. (But infestors might be needed to stop timings (which I disagree with) but I think it's a given that people would OK buffs to hydras/X Zerg units to see infestors become situational units.)
But you were arguing that they have too much utility in numbers due to IT's, etc. What I'm saying is that fungal alone is sufficient for that utility.
I think the arguments you're making saying that storm and fungals are the same are still weak. The way it functions in games, especially from a spectator point of view is different due to the additional root mechanic (which I think could be ok alone, but not as part of a very damaging spell. Also, SC2 is not, and should not become LoL).
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On December 26 2012 02:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Well, if Big J makes the argument that infestors are too easy to get en masse then the reasonable solution is to make them more expensive/higher in tech. (But infestors might be needed to stop timings (which I disagree with) but I think it's a given that people would OK buffs to hydras/X Zerg units to see infestors become situational units.)
But you were arguing that they have too much utility in numbers due to IT's, etc. What I'm saying is that fungal alone is sufficient for that utility.
I think the arguments you're making saying that storm and fungals are the same are still weak. The way it functions in games, especially from a spectator point of view is different due to the additional root mechanic (which I think could be ok alone, but not as part of a very damaging spell. Also, SC2 is not, and should not become LoL).
If you removed ITs today, how would Infestors be efficient vs tanks? Run into range and out every 4seconds and add 10dps per fungal and unit? I can get 14.5 dps by sending similar health half price hydras into the tank line! For a similar investment I can have 3 more roaches (24dps, higher burst)!
Protoss deathballs would probably roflstomp Infestor/Broodlord without the support of 50 stimmed marines spawning in the Protoss ball. ZvZ... I don't care if you build more Infestors. I'm gonna build more roach/hydra and I'm just gonna fight my way through your fungals. I mean... If I can choose 335HP and 24dps for 225/75 or 1-2 fungals for 100/150 after I already have 5fungals... I take the roaches! (and even for those 5fungals I wouldn't be too sure... after all I could build a ton more roach/hydra or upgrades instead).
It would absolutly not make sense from a costperspective, to build more infestors instead of more basic units. And from a supply perspective, just build more BLs, Ultras... Right now, when in doubt, you build more Infestors and throw 8 stimmed marines for 2supply.
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On December 26 2012 02:40 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 02:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Well, if Big J makes the argument that infestors are too easy to get en masse then the reasonable solution is to make them more expensive/higher in tech. (But infestors might be needed to stop timings (which I disagree with) but I think it's a given that people would OK buffs to hydras/X Zerg units to see infestors become situational units.)
But you were arguing that they have too much utility in numbers due to IT's, etc. What I'm saying is that fungal alone is sufficient for that utility.
I think the arguments you're making saying that storm and fungals are the same are still weak. The way it functions in games, especially from a spectator point of view is different due to the additional root mechanic (which I think could be ok alone, but not as part of a very damaging spell. Also, SC2 is not, and should not become LoL). If you removed ITs today, how would Infestors be efficient vs tanks? Run into range and out every 4seconds and add 10dps per fungal and unit? I can get 14.5 dps by sending similar health half price hydras into the tank line! For a similar investment I can have 3 more roaches (24dps, higher burst)! Protoss deathballs would probably roflstomp Infestor/Broodlord without the support of 50 stimmed marines spawning in the Protoss ball. ZvZ... I don't care if you build more Infestors. I'm gonna build more roach/hydra and I'm just gonna fight my way through your fungals. I mean... If I can choose 335HP and 24dps for 225/75 or 1-2 fungals for 100/150 after I already have 5fungals... I take the roaches! (and even for those 5fungals I wouldn't be too sure... after all I could build a ton more roach/hydra or upgrades instead). It would absolutly not make sense from a costperspective, to build more infestors instead of more basic units. And from a supply perspective, just build more BLs, Ultras... Right now, when in doubt, you build more Infestors and throw 8 stimmed marines for 2supply.
Leave out PvZ for now.
In terms of vT, you just asked how to make infestors efficient against the unit that's supposed to counter it. Well, they are not. That's why we have counters. Also, the efficiency then works the same way as with other units. An infestor is efficient when the counter is not on the playing field, it is not in position or if it's not sieged (sieges are another liability for terrans). Would infestors still be useful? Of course they would, just like ghosts are useful. When they don't get sniped, they do massive damage. In fact, I still think they would be so useful people would keep massing them.
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On December 26 2012 02:52 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 02:40 Big J wrote:On December 26 2012 02:15 Ghanburighan wrote:
Well, if Big J makes the argument that infestors are too easy to get en masse then the reasonable solution is to make them more expensive/higher in tech. (But infestors might be needed to stop timings (which I disagree with) but I think it's a given that people would OK buffs to hydras/X Zerg units to see infestors become situational units.)
But you were arguing that they have too much utility in numbers due to IT's, etc. What I'm saying is that fungal alone is sufficient for that utility.
I think the arguments you're making saying that storm and fungals are the same are still weak. The way it functions in games, especially from a spectator point of view is different due to the additional root mechanic (which I think could be ok alone, but not as part of a very damaging spell. Also, SC2 is not, and should not become LoL). If you removed ITs today, how would Infestors be efficient vs tanks? Run into range and out every 4seconds and add 10dps per fungal and unit? I can get 14.5 dps by sending similar health half price hydras into the tank line! For a similar investment I can have 3 more roaches (24dps, higher burst)! Protoss deathballs would probably roflstomp Infestor/Broodlord without the support of 50 stimmed marines spawning in the Protoss ball. ZvZ... I don't care if you build more Infestors. I'm gonna build more roach/hydra and I'm just gonna fight my way through your fungals. I mean... If I can choose 335HP and 24dps for 225/75 or 1-2 fungals for 100/150 after I already have 5fungals... I take the roaches! (and even for those 5fungals I wouldn't be too sure... after all I could build a ton more roach/hydra or upgrades instead). It would absolutly not make sense from a costperspective, to build more infestors instead of more basic units. And from a supply perspective, just build more BLs, Ultras... Right now, when in doubt, you build more Infestors and throw 8 stimmed marines for 2supply. Leave out PvZ for now. In terms of vT, you just asked how to make infestors efficient against the unit that's supposed to counter it. Well, they are not. That's why we have counters. Also, the efficiency then works the same way as with other units. An infestor is efficient when the counter is not on the playing field, it is not in position or if it's not sieged (sieges are another liability for terrans). Would infestors still be useful? Of course they would, just like ghosts are useful. When they don't get sniped, they do massive damage. In fact, I still think they would be so useful people would keep massing them.
Where did I ask that? I think that this is the way it is supposed to be!
And that's why I think nerfing ITs in ways that they become really bad in lategame combat is the way to go (completly removing IT removes midgame Infestor attacks and IT harass, which I think are all awesome to play with/against and spectate). Add some stuff on top of that, so that Infestors become more managable in combat (range nerf, speed nerf, projectile, more sight on basic units, more visible burrow movement; maybe a size reduction for more splash, better EMPing). I think blizzard has been doing a good job up to this patch with the Infestor in HotS. The 10range is ridicolous and will hopefully be tuned down again very soon.
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I hope they will change the mining rate back to what it was in WoL >_<
I feel like I'm doing something wrong with so many banked resources at like 15-20 mins in
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On December 26 2012 03:46 Disengaged wrote:
I hope they will change the mining rate back to what it was in WoL >_<
I feel like I'm doing something wrong with so many banked resources at like 15-20 mins in
Did I miss something? Mining rate isnt the same?
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On December 25 2012 12:39 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 09:07 nomyx wrote:On December 25 2012 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. 4 Fungals guarantees death of your entire mineral line, and infestors have burrow move. Pro players do use it for that, and you can't micro out of it or away from it. Fungal is not balanced, and you can split your units to mitigate it, but you can't avoid it, and you frankly can't engage without clumping something. A good player will have detection at his base to spot invisible units and be able to take out the infestors. You don't have to a-move into fungal, pro players will often pre-split their army (as they should) Fungal is balanced the same way storm is - my micro vs your micro. You can minimize the damage taken be being a skilled player. A good player doesn't build detection building (turrets etc) In hopes that they might need them. Honestly, if you don't think fungal is OP, then you play Z. It's a joke that units can be rooted in spot to be chain fungald. 0 micro can be done at that point. I've been saying this pre fungal QQ as well. When WOL was fairly new, and psi storm was all the QQ rage. And no one cept a select few used infestors. I remember looking at my friend during his storm qq tirade and saying. "Soon, people will be whining mad when ppl start using fungals" Sure nuff, I was right. It's a joke of a move. Either Root OR do damage, can't be both. Or remove the root, and replace with a concussive shell like effect so you have a chance at least.
Dustin Browder has said that they changed the root to a slow in internal testing and it had next to no effect on the game, so I don't think they will change it.
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In my mind they should just remove all kind of immobilizing spells (Vortex, Fungal, Force fields) as they lead to less micro which is less entertaining to watch and they are very hard to balance, but then we are back to brood war which will never happen
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On December 26 2012 03:50 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 03:46 Disengaged wrote:
I hope they will change the mining rate back to what it was in WoL >_<
I feel like I'm doing something wrong with so many banked resources at like 15-20 mins in Did I miss something? Mining rate isnt the same?
No, in the recent times of WoL there was a discovery that if you select a worker that is on its way to mine, you can circumvent the de-acceleration of the worker by move-commanding the worker near the mineral and shift-queue the minerals. Doing this, the worker efficiency is increased significantly. In HotS however, blizzard included this function automatically, meaning that the mining efficiency is boosed.
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Did I suddenly wake up and find out fungal was BALANCED??!??!?! Am I reading this right? Look, all of you guys are approaching this the wrong way. What is fungal in the first place? Fungal is an:
-Aoe
-Root
-Silence
-30 guaranteed dot damage
-Reveal
-Relatively Cheap (energy wise)
-Stackable
-Does NOT affect friendly units
-Long casting range
-Does NOT require research
-Can come immediate available on the unit with an upgrade
All on a unit that has:
-decent mobility (especially on creep)
-Ability to spawn free high dps units
-can take control of enemy units
-Accessible at Tier 2
-Easily massable
Wait a minute, I thought this was supposed to be a DYNAMIC RTS right? Not one unit gives all the utility I need to so all I have to do is use that unit? If this spell was in a MOBA people would be whining left and right about how that spell was overpowered and had to be removed or toned down....A LOT. I could have put "instant cast" on the list too if it wasn't a projectile in HOTS, but with it being a projectile we can add
-FAST PROJECTILE
-EVEN LONGER CASTING RANGE
It hurts my head to understand why this spell even exists in the first place. This has to be the epitome of terrible, not well thought out design. Just think about this, in AN EXPANSION WHERE ALL THE DESIGN PROBLEMS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FIXED BLIZZARD STILL HAS TO BUFF THIS ATROCITY OF A SPELL BECAUSE ZERG ARE STILL STRUGGLING WITH HOLES IN THEIR DESIGN. Sorry about the all caps, it's just really shocking to see idiocy of this level. So much for HOTS being the BW of starcraft.
It doesn't matter if you can "micro out of the spell" or "the spell looks cool" or "it takes skill to land the projectile spell" now. What matters is the fact that fungal (and the infestor in general) is being used as the giant plug to forcibly seal every hole wrong with the zerg design and blizzard doesn't care what cracks end up being made in the process. If you still can't see the problem with that then I don't know what to say at this point.
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On December 26 2012 04:16 Millet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 03:50 Excludos wrote:On December 26 2012 03:46 Disengaged wrote:
I hope they will change the mining rate back to what it was in WoL >_<
I feel like I'm doing something wrong with so many banked resources at like 15-20 mins in Did I miss something? Mining rate isnt the same? No, in the recent times of WoL there was a discovery that if you select a worker that is on its way to mine, you can circumvent the de-acceleration of the worker by move-commanding the worker near the mineral and shift-queue the minerals. Doing this, the worker efficiency is increased significantly. In HotS however, blizzard included this function automatically, meaning that the mining efficiency is boosed.
Oh, didn't know or really notice that (with the exception of an extra 5 minerals in the early game due to automatic worker rally). Any stats on how much exactly you earn on it?
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EPT
