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On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case.
Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units.
4 Fungals guarantees death of your entire mineral line, and infestors have burrow move. Pro players do use it for that, and you can't micro out of it or away from it. Fungal is not balanced, and you can split your units to mitigate it, but you can't avoid it, and you frankly can't engage without clumping something.
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On December 25 2012 08:59 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. 4 Fungals guarantees death of your entire mineral line, and infestors have burrow move. Pro players do use it for that, and you can't micro out of it or away from it. Fungal is not balanced, and you can split your units to mitigate it, but you can't avoid it, and you frankly can't engage without clumping something.
A good player will have detection at his base to spot invisible units and be able to take out the infestors.
You don't have to a-move into fungal, pro players will often pre-split their army (as they should)
Fungal is balanced the same way storm is - my micro vs your micro. You can minimize the damage taken be being a skilled player.
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On December 25 2012 09:07 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. 4 Fungals guarantees death of your entire mineral line, and infestors have burrow move. Pro players do use it for that, and you can't micro out of it or away from it. Fungal is not balanced, and you can split your units to mitigate it, but you can't avoid it, and you frankly can't engage without clumping something. A good player will have detection at his base to spot invisible units and be able to take out the infestors. You don't have to a-move into fungal, pro players will often pre-split their army (as they should) Fungal is balanced the same way storm is - my micro vs your micro. You can minimize the damage taken be being a skilled player.
I think it is balanced too. Real question should be: is it fun? Is it fun to watch? Is it fun to play against, with? I don't know man.
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I've said it for a while now: Fungal Growth needs to be a one-cast thing. As in, a unit that is fungled once should be immune afterwards (Parasite detected, or something).
Push that idea, and it might actually happen. It's really Chain Fungling that is the problem right now.
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On December 25 2012 09:11 HaRuHi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 09:07 nomyx wrote:On December 25 2012 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. 4 Fungals guarantees death of your entire mineral line, and infestors have burrow move. Pro players do use it for that, and you can't micro out of it or away from it. Fungal is not balanced, and you can split your units to mitigate it, but you can't avoid it, and you frankly can't engage without clumping something. A good player will have detection at his base to spot invisible units and be able to take out the infestors. You don't have to a-move into fungal, pro players will often pre-split their army (as they should) Fungal is balanced the same way storm is - my micro vs your micro. You can minimize the damage taken be being a skilled player. I think it is balanced too. Real question should be: is it fun? Is it fun to watch? Is it fun to play against, with? I don't know man.
Well said. My previous large post went over this in detail but ill summarize. It's not as fun to watch units Pre split as it is to watch them Pre split, dodge, dart backwards, reposition, spread to form concave, etc. Rooting eliminates every type of micro but the Pre split from the equation.
I don't think making fungaled units immune to fungal is necessarily an answer. A pro player would find it simple to master the timing for fungaling again right after the last one wears out. I just think blizz needs to find a medium between patch 8 and the current fungal. The projectile was fine... Chain fungal can be seen as proper reward for anticipating the enemy movement or pressuring them into eating a fungal.
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Well I suggested a while back (and on the bnet forums haha) that fungal just roots for 1-2 seconds or something and then the units slowly regain their speed for the rest of the duration of the spell. Shrug, I don't know what Blizzard has played around with.
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On December 25 2012 09:07 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:59 Whitewing wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. 4 Fungals guarantees death of your entire mineral line, and infestors have burrow move. Pro players do use it for that, and you can't micro out of it or away from it. Fungal is not balanced, and you can split your units to mitigate it, but you can't avoid it, and you frankly can't engage without clumping something. A good player will have detection at his base to spot invisible units and be able to take out the infestors. You don't have to a-move into fungal, pro players will often pre-split their army (as they should) Fungal is balanced the same way storm is - my micro vs your micro. You can minimize the damage taken be being a skilled player.
A good player doesn't build detection building (turrets etc) In hopes that they might need them.
Honestly, if you don't think fungal is OP, then you play Z. It's a joke that units can be rooted in spot to be chain fungald. 0 micro can be done at that point. I've been saying this pre fungal QQ as well. When WOL was fairly new, and psi storm was all the QQ rage. And no one cept a select few used infestors. I remember looking at my friend during his storm qq tirade and saying.
"Soon, people will be whining mad when ppl start using fungals"
Sure nuff, I was right. It's a joke of a move. Either Root OR do damage, can't be both. Or remove the root, and replace with a concussive shell like effect so you have a chance at least.
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I had a friend that was Masters (before there was GM league) and he used to use mass infestors during year 1 of WOL. He doesnt play anymore but I remember talking to him and asking why no one uses this strategy. "They love there muta/bling strat" He never used Infested terran cuz at the time it was 50 energy but funal was much stronger. He just fungaled everyting to death. I had no idea what to do lol
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On December 25 2012 12:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:
I had a friend that was Masters (before there was GM league) and he used to use mass infestors during year 1 of WOL. He doesnt play anymore but I remember talking to him and asking why no one uses this strategy. "They love there muta/bling strat" He never used Infested terran cuz at the time it was 50 energy but funal was much stronger. He just fungaled everyting to death. I had no idea what to do lol
When was the egg 50 energy? Looking at all of the balance changes on liquipedia that involves IT and infestor, the energy was never decreased from 50->25. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain IT has always been 25 energy. There is enough reason to complain about infestors and IT already without having people making up facts.
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On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units.
This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ...
The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet.
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On December 25 2012 15:27 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 12:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:
I had a friend that was Masters (before there was GM league) and he used to use mass infestors during year 1 of WOL. He doesnt play anymore but I remember talking to him and asking why no one uses this strategy. "They love there muta/bling strat" He never used Infested terran cuz at the time it was 50 energy but funal was much stronger. He just fungaled everyting to death. I had no idea what to do lol When was the egg 50 energy? Looking at all of the balance changes on liquipedia that involves IT and infestor, the energy was never decreased from 50->25. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain IT has always been 25 energy. There is enough reason to complain about infestors and IT already without having people making up facts.
beta, I was thinking back even farther, you know you can look it up yourself too...its not that hard
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On December 25 2012 18:20 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 15:27 convention wrote:On December 25 2012 12:50 SuperYo1000 wrote:
I had a friend that was Masters (before there was GM league) and he used to use mass infestors during year 1 of WOL. He doesnt play anymore but I remember talking to him and asking why no one uses this strategy. "They love there muta/bling strat" He never used Infested terran cuz at the time it was 50 energy but funal was much stronger. He just fungaled everyting to death. I had no idea what to do lol When was the egg 50 energy? Looking at all of the balance changes on liquipedia that involves IT and infestor, the energy was never decreased from 50->25. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain IT has always been 25 energy. There is enough reason to complain about infestors and IT already without having people making up facts. beta, I was thinking back even farther, you know you can look it up yourself too...its not that hard
Patch 1, February 25th 2010
Terran Infestation: Energy cost was reduced from 50 to 25 and Infested Terrans now spawn 1 at a time.
This was patched out in the very first beta patch...
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On December 25 2012 18:11 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ... The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet.
You can minimize the damage by splitting your units up. If you don't micro against storm it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against banelings it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against fungal it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro.
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On December 25 2012 21:22 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 18:11 Rabiator wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ... The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet. You can minimize the damage by splitting your units up. If you don't micro against storm it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against banelings it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against fungal it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro.
Stop with the repetition already. What everybody is trying to tell you is that the LOCKDOWN of fungal is what differentiates it from banes, storm, archon, colossus and other splash damage. One does not have to pre-split against storm and banes, although it helps if you do. With fungal, you absolutely have to.
And it's not "my micro" versus "his macro". It's constant splitting of units (a very hard skill to master that tips the resources "time" and "attention" in zerg favour) versus an instant cast. You don't seem to realize the difference between those two types of micro. ()
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On December 25 2012 22:10 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 21:22 nomyx wrote:On December 25 2012 18:11 Rabiator wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ... The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet. You can minimize the damage by splitting your units up. If you don't micro against storm it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against banelings it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against fungal it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. Stop with the repetition already. What everybody is trying to tell you is that the LOCKDOWN of fungal is what differentiates it from banes, storm, archon, colossus and other splash damage. One does not have to pre-split against storm and banes, although it helps if you do. With fungal, you absolutely have to. And it's not "my micro" versus "his macro". It's constant splitting of units (a very hard skill to master that tips the resources "time" and "attention" in zerg favour) versus an instant cast. You don't seem to realize the difference between those two types of micro. ()
If you get 1-2 storms directly on top of clumped bio you instantly win in PvT (assuming an equal situation).
I don't see the difference at all, apart from staying out of range of templar being easier, due to the lower speed of those and ghosts being really strong in TvP, so you actually have a really good anti templar unit on the battlefield per default.
On top of that, Infestors are simply more useful than Templar due to ITs, hence, there are more Infestors on the battlefield.
tldr; the outcome of storms on bio is the same as in fungal on bio... the difference is that templar are more manageable than Infestors.
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On December 25 2012 22:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 22:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 21:22 nomyx wrote:On December 25 2012 18:11 Rabiator wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ... The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet. You can minimize the damage by splitting your units up. If you don't micro against storm it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against banelings it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against fungal it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. Stop with the repetition already. What everybody is trying to tell you is that the LOCKDOWN of fungal is what differentiates it from banes, storm, archon, colossus and other splash damage. One does not have to pre-split against storm and banes, although it helps if you do. With fungal, you absolutely have to. And it's not "my micro" versus "his macro". It's constant splitting of units (a very hard skill to master that tips the resources "time" and "attention" in zerg favour) versus an instant cast. You don't seem to realize the difference between those two types of micro. () If you get 1-2 storms directly on top of clumped bio you instantly win in PvT (assuming an equal situation). I don't see the difference at all, apart from staying out of range of templar being easier, due to the lower speed of those and ghosts being really strong in TvP, so you actually have a really good anti templar unit on the battlefield per default. On top of that, Infestors are simply more useful than Templar due to ITs, hence, there are more Infestors on the battlefield. tldr; the outcome of storms on bio is the same as in fungal on bio... the difference is that templar are more manageable than Infestors.
Did you really put a TLDR on 4 lines of text?
What the previous guy was saying is that infestors are exactly the same as HT and banelings. I'm saying what you're saying, they are much more difficult to deal with than other splash damage units (HT and colossus come close). But you're also neglecting one bit. If your storm hits the edge of a bio-ball, you have a good chance to run out. It's only very good storms that do massive damage (as it should be). But ny unit caught in fungal is dead due to chain fungals and root. It does not matter if it's a very good fungal or not. If it hits anything at all, that unit is dead.
Also, it's commendable that you point out the ghost-HT dynamic in PvT. It's a healthy micro v micro situation that is essentially missing in TvZ.
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On December 25 2012 22:20 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 22:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 21:22 nomyx wrote:On December 25 2012 18:11 Rabiator wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ... The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet. You can minimize the damage by splitting your units up. If you don't micro against storm it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against banelings it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against fungal it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. Stop with the repetition already. What everybody is trying to tell you is that the LOCKDOWN of fungal is what differentiates it from banes, storm, archon, colossus and other splash damage. One does not have to pre-split against storm and banes, although it helps if you do. With fungal, you absolutely have to. And it's not "my micro" versus "his macro". It's constant splitting of units (a very hard skill to master that tips the resources "time" and "attention" in zerg favour) versus an instant cast. You don't seem to realize the difference between those two types of micro. () If you get 1-2 storms directly on top of clumped bio you instantly win in PvT (assuming an equal situation). I don't see the difference at all, apart from staying out of range of templar being easier, due to the lower speed of those and ghosts being really strong in TvP, so you actually have a really good anti templar unit on the battlefield per default. On top of that, Infestors are simply more useful than Templar due to ITs, hence, there are more Infestors on the battlefield. tldr; the outcome of storms on bio is the same as in fungal on bio... the difference is that templar are more manageable than Infestors.
If you are hit with Storms you can still micro AFTER THE SPELL STARTS, so you can use your bio army to the maximum efficiency until that point.
If you are faced with Infestors you are basically saying that you have to keep your units PRE-SPREAD all the time, which minimizes their efficiency. So the THREAT of being fungaled is reducing the efficiency of the opponent already. That is a HUGE difference.
If you dont understand the huge difference between the two now then I cant help you any more ...
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On December 25 2012 22:26 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 22:20 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 22:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 21:22 nomyx wrote:On December 25 2012 18:11 Rabiator wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ... The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet. You can minimize the damage by splitting your units up. If you don't micro against storm it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against banelings it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against fungal it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. Stop with the repetition already. What everybody is trying to tell you is that the LOCKDOWN of fungal is what differentiates it from banes, storm, archon, colossus and other splash damage. One does not have to pre-split against storm and banes, although it helps if you do. With fungal, you absolutely have to. And it's not "my micro" versus "his macro". It's constant splitting of units (a very hard skill to master that tips the resources "time" and "attention" in zerg favour) versus an instant cast. You don't seem to realize the difference between those two types of micro. () If you get 1-2 storms directly on top of clumped bio you instantly win in PvT (assuming an equal situation). I don't see the difference at all, apart from staying out of range of templar being easier, due to the lower speed of those and ghosts being really strong in TvP, so you actually have a really good anti templar unit on the battlefield per default. On top of that, Infestors are simply more useful than Templar due to ITs, hence, there are more Infestors on the battlefield. tldr; the outcome of storms on bio is the same as in fungal on bio... the difference is that templar are more manageable than Infestors. Did you really put a TLDR on 4 lines of text? What the previous guy was saying is that infestors are exactly the same as HT and banelings. I'm saying what you're saying, they are much more difficult to deal with than other splash damage units (HT and colossus come close). But you're also neglecting one bit. If your storm hits the edge of a bio-ball, you have a good chance to run out. It's only very good storms that do massive damage (as it should be). But ny unit caught in fungal is dead due to chain fungals and root. It does not matter if it's a very good fungal or not. If it hits anything at all, that unit is dead. Also, it's commendable that you point out the ghost-HT dynamic in PvT. It's a healthy micro v micro situation that is essentially missing in TvZ.
Not any unit caught in a fungal is dead. If you only hit 2-3 "low tier" units with a fungal, it's absolutly not worth it to chain fungal. Especially if they are supported by siege tanks that make you take hits on Infestors anytime you fungal.
The problem with the "Infestorcounter" Siege Tank in TvZ is that unlike Templar they are not manually controllable what to shoot most of the time. Hence, they will do a lot of good work on low tier stuff, but often the Infestors will still be able to do their work.
The 8range fungal and the IT nerfs are the exactly right direction where to go with the Infestor. I'd hope that the next steps in WoL are a speed nerf to 2.0 and some extra nerf on ITs (I'd prefer -2damage, rather than no upgrades, which is very unintentional) and then just transfer the WoL Infestor to HotS with a 10to15 speed projectile and maybe 9range if 8doesn't work at all with the projectile. Also a sight buff to all basic units with only 9range to 10range would be healthy for the game to allow for better reactions against fast and longrange units.
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On December 25 2012 22:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 22:26 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 22:20 Big J wrote:On December 25 2012 22:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On December 25 2012 21:22 nomyx wrote:On December 25 2012 18:11 Rabiator wrote:On December 25 2012 08:47 nomyx wrote:On December 24 2012 19:42 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists. I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint. What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case. Fungal growth is pretty balanced right now. It only does 30 damage (not enough to kill a worker) and you can avoid it by splitting your units. This is a terribly stupid reasoning, because you have to split your forces beforehand and make them weaker due to breaking up the concentrated deathball. There is no other ability which does that - apart from the Thors AA which is easily countered by magic boxing - to ground forces which usually decide the battle. Not even a sieged up Siege Tank is as threatening ... The terrible part of Fungal isnt the damage but the lockdown of the units ... just mentioning this because you dont seem to have noticed that yet. You can minimize the damage by splitting your units up. If you don't micro against storm it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against banelings it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. If you don't micro against fungal it's going to do a lot of damage, you can minimize that by using micro. Stop with the repetition already. What everybody is trying to tell you is that the LOCKDOWN of fungal is what differentiates it from banes, storm, archon, colossus and other splash damage. One does not have to pre-split against storm and banes, although it helps if you do. With fungal, you absolutely have to. And it's not "my micro" versus "his macro". It's constant splitting of units (a very hard skill to master that tips the resources "time" and "attention" in zerg favour) versus an instant cast. You don't seem to realize the difference between those two types of micro. () If you get 1-2 storms directly on top of clumped bio you instantly win in PvT (assuming an equal situation). I don't see the difference at all, apart from staying out of range of templar being easier, due to the lower speed of those and ghosts being really strong in TvP, so you actually have a really good anti templar unit on the battlefield per default. On top of that, Infestors are simply more useful than Templar due to ITs, hence, there are more Infestors on the battlefield. tldr; the outcome of storms on bio is the same as in fungal on bio... the difference is that templar are more manageable than Infestors. Did you really put a TLDR on 4 lines of text? What the previous guy was saying is that infestors are exactly the same as HT and banelings. I'm saying what you're saying, they are much more difficult to deal with than other splash damage units (HT and colossus come close). But you're also neglecting one bit. If your storm hits the edge of a bio-ball, you have a good chance to run out. It's only very good storms that do massive damage (as it should be). But ny unit caught in fungal is dead due to chain fungals and root. It does not matter if it's a very good fungal or not. If it hits anything at all, that unit is dead. Also, it's commendable that you point out the ghost-HT dynamic in PvT. It's a healthy micro v micro situation that is essentially missing in TvZ. Not any unit caught in a fungal is dead. If you only hit 2-3 "low tier" units with a fungal, it's absolutly not worth it to chain fungal. Especially if they are supported by siege tanks that make you take hits on Infestors anytime you fungal. The problem with the "Infestorcounter" Siege Tank in TvZ is that unlike Templar they are not manually controllable what to shoot most of the time. Hence, they will do a lot of good work on low tier stuff, but often the Infestors will still be able to do their work. The 8range fungal and the IT nerfs are the exactly right direction where to go with the Infestor. I'd hope that the next steps in WoL are a speed nerf to 2.0 and some extra nerf on ITs (I'd prefer -2damage, rather than no upgrades, which is very unintentional) and then just transfer the WoL Infestor to HotS with a 10to15 speed projectile and maybe 9range if 8doesn't work at all with the projectile. Also a sight buff to all basic units with only 9range to 10range would be healthy for the game to allow for better reactions against fast and longrange units.
You missed the point. Imagine a storm. It has a radius of let's say 10 arbitrary units. If your bio ball is within 2 of the center point, all your marines will die and marauders/medivacs take massive damage. If your bio ball is within 2 of the outer radius, you can quickly stim out of the storm and take very little damage. With fungal, whether your units are 2 of the center or the edge, the effect is the same due to root.
What this means is that (and this remains the case after all the suggestions you listed) that terrans have to always pre-split. This is costly in terms of time, attention and weakens the effectiveness of the bio-ball when fighting the rest of the Z army. In fact, the Z does not need to build a single infestor to get an advantage in a ZvT MU if the terran has to always pre-split after the mid-game. There could be infestors lurking the in the FOW.
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EPT
