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On December 23 2012 13:55 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 12:26 pmp10 wrote:On December 23 2012 12:22 Whitewing wrote:
Actually no, that's not it at all. They re-buffed fungal because ZvZ was turning into a muta vs. muta fest, and nobody could figure out how to deal with it, since infestors no longer shut down mutalisks.
And what was Blizzards response to TvT turning into reaper vs reaper? 'Let's wait and see' Blizzard cares little for mirrors as they can see that non-mirrors are quickly turning into a mess. Blizzard's responses are never uniform, and why they make changes quickly sometimes and never other times seems incredibly irrational. To them, balancing and designing the game isn't a science where you listen to logic and reasoning and look at statistics. Instead, they haphazardly throws things together like the Warhound and Entomb and hope they work. But the community knew from the get-go that these were bad ideas, because we actually thought about them and used logic and reasoning. But instead of thinking about them, they wasted their own money and their time and ours testing them... It apparently doesn't bother them though, because once they realize their ideas are bad, they can copy and paste the exact same reasons (Entomb is a skilless ability, the Warhound is a factory Marauder) the community didn't like them before they were tested into their posts on why they need to be removed! Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 02:55 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 02:23 Hider wrote:On December 23 2012 01:44 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 01:39 PanzerElite wrote:On December 23 2012 01:24 Dynamitekid wrote:
Is it me or are the new units in HOTS are really boring except the viper? The viper is so silly, have you seen today's gsl show matches? Silly in stupid design/animation. It's horrible to see thors/collosus/tanks/tempest/medivacs being pulled. It looks so silly i can't take hots serious anymore. Sounds like you are QQ. Do you know what is silly? The medvac +5hp regen and boost upgrade. I think protoss got the short end of the stick in HOTS stop whining over balance. Honestly the viper is stupid. That pull just looks so retarded, and I think people will get tired of it pretty quickly. It's another one of those microkillers, where the opponent can't do anything. He is just goanna lose unit x every single time. It may be balanced but its terrible design wise. Oh look anther terran Vipers with Abduct are another terrible "all or nothing unit." Either the unit completely changes the game or does nothing, much like Widow Mines, the Oracle, ect... These units are impossible to balance because they are either too strong or too weak, there is no in between due to how they are designed. Blizzard doesn't seem to know how to design units anymore, and what soft counters are. The Viper has to go, or rather Abduct has to go.
How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors.
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United States7483 Posts
On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 13:55 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 23 2012 12:26 pmp10 wrote:On December 23 2012 12:22 Whitewing wrote:
Actually no, that's not it at all. They re-buffed fungal because ZvZ was turning into a muta vs. muta fest, and nobody could figure out how to deal with it, since infestors no longer shut down mutalisks.
And what was Blizzards response to TvT turning into reaper vs reaper? 'Let's wait and see' Blizzard cares little for mirrors as they can see that non-mirrors are quickly turning into a mess. Blizzard's responses are never uniform, and why they make changes quickly sometimes and never other times seems incredibly irrational. To them, balancing and designing the game isn't a science where you listen to logic and reasoning and look at statistics. Instead, they haphazardly throws things together like the Warhound and Entomb and hope they work. But the community knew from the get-go that these were bad ideas, because we actually thought about them and used logic and reasoning. But instead of thinking about them, they wasted their own money and their time and ours testing them... It apparently doesn't bother them though, because once they realize their ideas are bad, they can copy and paste the exact same reasons (Entomb is a skilless ability, the Warhound is a factory Marauder) the community didn't like them before they were tested into their posts on why they need to be removed! On December 23 2012 02:55 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 02:23 Hider wrote:On December 23 2012 01:44 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 01:39 PanzerElite wrote:On December 23 2012 01:24 Dynamitekid wrote:
Is it me or are the new units in HOTS are really boring except the viper? The viper is so silly, have you seen today's gsl show matches? Silly in stupid design/animation. It's horrible to see thors/collosus/tanks/tempest/medivacs being pulled. It looks so silly i can't take hots serious anymore. Sounds like you are QQ. Do you know what is silly? The medvac +5hp regen and boost upgrade. I think protoss got the short end of the stick in HOTS stop whining over balance. Honestly the viper is stupid. That pull just looks so retarded, and I think people will get tired of it pretty quickly. It's another one of those microkillers, where the opponent can't do anything. He is just goanna lose unit x every single time. It may be balanced but its terrible design wise. Oh look anther terran Vipers with Abduct are another terrible "all or nothing unit." Either the unit completely changes the game or does nothing, much like Widow Mines, the Oracle, ect... These units are impossible to balance because they are either too strong or too weak, there is no in between due to how they are designed. Blizzard doesn't seem to know how to design units anymore, and what soft counters are. The Viper has to go, or rather Abduct has to go. How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors.
It'd be nice if vipers didn't make colossi worthless though.
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Random question.
Is the HOTS beta installer supposed to look like the WoL one?
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On December 23 2012 14:57 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:On December 23 2012 13:55 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 23 2012 12:26 pmp10 wrote:On December 23 2012 12:22 Whitewing wrote:
Actually no, that's not it at all. They re-buffed fungal because ZvZ was turning into a muta vs. muta fest, and nobody could figure out how to deal with it, since infestors no longer shut down mutalisks.
And what was Blizzards response to TvT turning into reaper vs reaper? 'Let's wait and see' Blizzard cares little for mirrors as they can see that non-mirrors are quickly turning into a mess. Blizzard's responses are never uniform, and why they make changes quickly sometimes and never other times seems incredibly irrational. To them, balancing and designing the game isn't a science where you listen to logic and reasoning and look at statistics. Instead, they haphazardly throws things together like the Warhound and Entomb and hope they work. But the community knew from the get-go that these were bad ideas, because we actually thought about them and used logic and reasoning. But instead of thinking about them, they wasted their own money and their time and ours testing them... It apparently doesn't bother them though, because once they realize their ideas are bad, they can copy and paste the exact same reasons (Entomb is a skilless ability, the Warhound is a factory Marauder) the community didn't like them before they were tested into their posts on why they need to be removed! On December 23 2012 02:55 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 02:23 Hider wrote:On December 23 2012 01:44 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 01:39 PanzerElite wrote:On December 23 2012 01:24 Dynamitekid wrote:
Is it me or are the new units in HOTS are really boring except the viper? The viper is so silly, have you seen today's gsl show matches? Silly in stupid design/animation. It's horrible to see thors/collosus/tanks/tempest/medivacs being pulled. It looks so silly i can't take hots serious anymore. Sounds like you are QQ. Do you know what is silly? The medvac +5hp regen and boost upgrade. I think protoss got the short end of the stick in HOTS stop whining over balance. Honestly the viper is stupid. That pull just looks so retarded, and I think people will get tired of it pretty quickly. It's another one of those microkillers, where the opponent can't do anything. He is just goanna lose unit x every single time. It may be balanced but its terrible design wise. Oh look anther terran Vipers with Abduct are another terrible "all or nothing unit." Either the unit completely changes the game or does nothing, much like Widow Mines, the Oracle, ect... These units are impossible to balance because they are either too strong or too weak, there is no in between due to how they are designed. Blizzard doesn't seem to know how to design units anymore, and what soft counters are. The Viper has to go, or rather Abduct has to go. How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors. It'd be nice if vipers didn't make colossi worthless though.
Not sure how sad I am to see less colossi 
Also, it's at least a more interesting way of dealing with them then making corruptors which are otherwise completely useless (before BLs).
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On December 19 2012 08:21 Sailincieri wrote:
Im totally confused.
First Blizz says "we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army." - great idea, its what players wanted. Nerf spells that totally destroys micro and makes game boring to watch and play.
And now this big buff? And the reason: "We feel the initial nerfs to Fungal Growth were too much especially in ZvZ".
Realy?! How fungal can be too weak in ZvZ? Its mirror...
Because the other path would be too much work for them. They have a 3 month deadline and they will rather buff the infestor than try to go around it. Blizzard is famous for prolonging the release of the games/expansion because they put quality on first place. It seems their policy changed.
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 23 2012 14:57 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:On December 23 2012 13:55 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 23 2012 12:26 pmp10 wrote:On December 23 2012 12:22 Whitewing wrote:
Actually no, that's not it at all. They re-buffed fungal because ZvZ was turning into a muta vs. muta fest, and nobody could figure out how to deal with it, since infestors no longer shut down mutalisks.
And what was Blizzards response to TvT turning into reaper vs reaper? 'Let's wait and see' Blizzard cares little for mirrors as they can see that non-mirrors are quickly turning into a mess. Blizzard's responses are never uniform, and why they make changes quickly sometimes and never other times seems incredibly irrational. To them, balancing and designing the game isn't a science where you listen to logic and reasoning and look at statistics. Instead, they haphazardly throws things together like the Warhound and Entomb and hope they work. But the community knew from the get-go that these were bad ideas, because we actually thought about them and used logic and reasoning. But instead of thinking about them, they wasted their own money and their time and ours testing them... It apparently doesn't bother them though, because once they realize their ideas are bad, they can copy and paste the exact same reasons (Entomb is a skilless ability, the Warhound is a factory Marauder) the community didn't like them before they were tested into their posts on why they need to be removed! On December 23 2012 02:55 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 02:23 Hider wrote:On December 23 2012 01:44 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 01:39 PanzerElite wrote:On December 23 2012 01:24 Dynamitekid wrote:
Is it me or are the new units in HOTS are really boring except the viper? The viper is so silly, have you seen today's gsl show matches? Silly in stupid design/animation. It's horrible to see thors/collosus/tanks/tempest/medivacs being pulled. It looks so silly i can't take hots serious anymore. Sounds like you are QQ. Do you know what is silly? The medvac +5hp regen and boost upgrade. I think protoss got the short end of the stick in HOTS stop whining over balance. Honestly the viper is stupid. That pull just looks so retarded, and I think people will get tired of it pretty quickly. It's another one of those microkillers, where the opponent can't do anything. He is just goanna lose unit x every single time. It may be balanced but its terrible design wise. Oh look anther terran Vipers with Abduct are another terrible "all or nothing unit." Either the unit completely changes the game or does nothing, much like Widow Mines, the Oracle, ect... These units are impossible to balance because they are either too strong or too weak, there is no in between due to how they are designed. Blizzard doesn't seem to know how to design units anymore, and what soft counters are. The Viper has to go, or rather Abduct has to go. How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors. It'd be nice if vipers didn't make colossi worthless though.
Cmon do the manly thing and go Storm every PvZ 
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On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:
How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors.
The reason why the viper is an all or nothing unit is like the reason the infestor neural parasite was an all or nothing unit. Sure you could "neural" important units with the infestor but why would you when the risk of losing an infestor was not enough to justify neuraling that unit. It's the same with abduct. Sure you could "abduct" three of the eight tanks, but if you lose 3 vipers in the process then the trade actually favors the terran at that point. That's the problem with these "all or nothing" spells like we see with abduct, neural parasite and fungal. I wouldn't call them all or nothing though, as it seems to me that there is just so much reason you would use anything BUT those spells that the only way to balance them would be to make them "nothing". Abduct, like fungal and neural parasite, is just too good for what it is. Sure BW had spells like these such as Mind Control, but this was justified due to the large energy cost, cost of the unit, and how long it took to get there. The viper is an easily massable unit at lair tech that flies and pulls things towards it. Is anyone else seeing the problem here?
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You can easily snipe vipers with high templars. Also, colossi are "A-move" units. I don't understand what is all the crying about. Id rather have blizzard take out the swarm host which is a boring micro-less unit.
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you guys need to calm down now. like I said before in the thread, blizzard is just testing numbers. Dustin said on his Twitter that they were going to nerf infestors again in the next patch.
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On December 23 2012 23:32 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 14:57 Whitewing wrote:On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:On December 23 2012 13:55 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 23 2012 12:26 pmp10 wrote:On December 23 2012 12:22 Whitewing wrote:
Actually no, that's not it at all. They re-buffed fungal because ZvZ was turning into a muta vs. muta fest, and nobody could figure out how to deal with it, since infestors no longer shut down mutalisks.
And what was Blizzards response to TvT turning into reaper vs reaper? 'Let's wait and see' Blizzard cares little for mirrors as they can see that non-mirrors are quickly turning into a mess. Blizzard's responses are never uniform, and why they make changes quickly sometimes and never other times seems incredibly irrational. To them, balancing and designing the game isn't a science where you listen to logic and reasoning and look at statistics. Instead, they haphazardly throws things together like the Warhound and Entomb and hope they work. But the community knew from the get-go that these were bad ideas, because we actually thought about them and used logic and reasoning. But instead of thinking about them, they wasted their own money and their time and ours testing them... It apparently doesn't bother them though, because once they realize their ideas are bad, they can copy and paste the exact same reasons (Entomb is a skilless ability, the Warhound is a factory Marauder) the community didn't like them before they were tested into their posts on why they need to be removed! On December 23 2012 02:55 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 02:23 Hider wrote:On December 23 2012 01:44 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 01:39 PanzerElite wrote:On December 23 2012 01:24 Dynamitekid wrote:
Is it me or are the new units in HOTS are really boring except the viper? The viper is so silly, have you seen today's gsl show matches? Silly in stupid design/animation. It's horrible to see thors/collosus/tanks/tempest/medivacs being pulled. It looks so silly i can't take hots serious anymore. Sounds like you are QQ. Do you know what is silly? The medvac +5hp regen and boost upgrade. I think protoss got the short end of the stick in HOTS stop whining over balance. Honestly the viper is stupid. That pull just looks so retarded, and I think people will get tired of it pretty quickly. It's another one of those microkillers, where the opponent can't do anything. He is just goanna lose unit x every single time. It may be balanced but its terrible design wise. Oh look anther terran Vipers with Abduct are another terrible "all or nothing unit." Either the unit completely changes the game or does nothing, much like Widow Mines, the Oracle, ect... These units are impossible to balance because they are either too strong or too weak, there is no in between due to how they are designed. Blizzard doesn't seem to know how to design units anymore, and what soft counters are. The Viper has to go, or rather Abduct has to go. How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors. It'd be nice if vipers didn't make colossi worthless though. Cmon do the manly thing and go Storm every PvZ
I stopped making Colossi completely and I think this is now actually a viable choice in every MU.
With Oracle harass Protoss can now keep up with Zerg until midgame and Time Warp or whatever it is called makes Zerg a lot more cautious to just move out at random times. Also the new VR is good against Roaches
MsC gives so much defensive power that I feel going for dual Forge and fast Storm is really doable in PvT.
And in PvP VRs/Tempests OWN ground armies as far as I can tell for now.
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On December 23 2012 23:48 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:
How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors. The reason why the viper is an all or nothing unit is like the reason the infestor neural parasite was an all or nothing unit. Sure you could "neural" important units with the infestor but why would you when the risk of losing an infestor was not enough to justify neuraling that unit. It's the same with abduct. Sure you could "abduct" three of the eight tanks, but if you lose 3 vipers in the process then the trade actually favors the terran at that point. That's the problem with these "all or nothing" spells like we see with abduct, neural parasite and fungal. I wouldn't call them all or nothing though, as it seems to me that there is just so much reason you would use anything BUT those spells that the only way to balance them would be to make them "nothing". Abduct, like fungal and neural parasite, is just too good for what it is. Sure BW had spells like these such as Mind Control, but this was justified due to the large energy cost, cost of the unit, and how long it took to get there. The viper is an easily massable unit at lair tech that flies and pulls things towards it. Is anyone else seeing the problem here?
The point of abducting siege tanks/collosi is that without those units the T/P army is significantly weaker, to the point that you can now roll in your banelings and finish off the unsupported marine/gateway army. Is storm and EMP then also all or nothing? Sure you might get off the storm or EMP, but if you don't it wasn't worth the HT/ghost. All spells are that way in a sense. You invested into a unit that has a powerful spell, if the other person prevents that spell or you mess up and don't get it off, then of course it wasn't worth the investment.
Also, the viper is not massable at all. What army do you kill the terran with once you've abducted their siege tanks and blinded their marines? You don't have one if you are flying around with 30 vipers. Units like the infestor are massable, because you don't need the army once you've fungaled and tossed out 100 IT to kill their army. I think everyone would love to see the viper just straight up replace the infestor. I think people want to treat the infestor like they did with reapers in WoL, nerf it to be useless. The viper is a very strong, not massable, support spell caster, which can create exciting dynamic to the game. We would see HT/viper battles potentially, we would see ghost-viking/viper battles. Currently there is no way to prevent a fungal growth, you just have to hope you can outlast it and don't make the one mistake that will lose the game. There is a way from preventing viper spells, there is a way to micro out of the spells, it is everything we see with bio vs. storm that is entertaining to watch, and completely skill driven.
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On December 24 2012 01:06 Xanbatou wrote:
you guys need to calm down now. like I said before in the thread, blizzard is just testing numbers. Dustin said on his Twitter that they were going to nerf infestors again in the next patch.
I think that was for WoL and not necessarily for HoTS.
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On December 24 2012 01:23 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 01:06 Xanbatou wrote:
you guys need to calm down now. like I said before in the thread, blizzard is just testing numbers. Dustin said on his Twitter that they were going to nerf infestors again in the next patch. I think that was for WoL and not necessarily for HoTS.
Blizzard so far has been pretty good with listening the community on HOTS. They know at this point that everyone and their mother is angry about infestor 10-range. The tweet I thought was for WoL too, but I am fairly certain the infestor is going to receive a nerf in HOTS as well.
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On December 24 2012 01:16 rEalGuapo wrote:
MsC gives so much defensive power that I feel going for dual Forge and fast Storm is really doable in PvT.
Someone's going to have to explain this one to me. Photon Overcharge gives a Nexus the DPS of one photon canon for a minute, and the MsC itself does a little damage. It helps against really early game cheese, but otherwise? Meh.
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On December 24 2012 01:20 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 23:48 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:
How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors. The reason why the viper is an all or nothing unit is like the reason the infestor neural parasite was an all or nothing unit. Sure you could "neural" important units with the infestor but why would you when the risk of losing an infestor was not enough to justify neuraling that unit. It's the same with abduct. Sure you could "abduct" three of the eight tanks, but if you lose 3 vipers in the process then the trade actually favors the terran at that point. That's the problem with these "all or nothing" spells like we see with abduct, neural parasite and fungal. I wouldn't call them all or nothing though, as it seems to me that there is just so much reason you would use anything BUT those spells that the only way to balance them would be to make them "nothing". Abduct, like fungal and neural parasite, is just too good for what it is. Sure BW had spells like these such as Mind Control, but this was justified due to the large energy cost, cost of the unit, and how long it took to get there. The viper is an easily massable unit at lair tech that flies and pulls things towards it. Is anyone else seeing the problem here? The point of abducting siege tanks/collosi is that without those units the T/P army is significantly weaker, to the point that you can now roll in your banelings and finish off the unsupported marine/gateway army. Is storm and EMP then also all or nothing? Sure you might get off the storm or EMP, but if you don't it wasn't worth the HT/ghost. All spells are that way in a sense. You invested into a unit that has a powerful spell, if the other person prevents that spell or you mess up and don't get it off, then of course it wasn't worth the investment. Also, the viper is not massable at all. What army do you kill the terran with once you've abducted their siege tanks and blinded their marines? You don't have one if you are flying around with 30 vipers. Units like the infestor are massable, because you don't need the army once you've fungaled and tossed out 100 IT to kill their army. I think everyone would love to see the viper just straight up replace the infestor. I think people want to treat the infestor like they did with reapers in WoL, nerf it to be useless. The viper is a very strong, not massable, support spell caster, which can create exciting dynamic to the game. We would see HT/viper battles potentially, we would see ghost-viking/viper battles. Currently there is no way to prevent a fungal growth, you just have to hope you can outlast it and don't make the one mistake that will lose the game. There is a way from preventing viper spells, there is a way to micro out of the spells, it is everything we see with bio vs. storm that is entertaining to watch, and completely skill driven.
My point was that the fact is that abduct is so ridiculously strong and that the only counter to it is to be able snipe the viper before it pulled the abduct off, thus the only way to balance it was to make it where it would almost be pointless to try abduct in the first place. Banelings are melee units that only affect ground and are relatively slow enough that you can pre-split against them and be cost effective. Storm is a aoe dot damage area that can be walked out of, as well as the fact that ht that casts it is slow, and relatively useless after it casts storm (which is why they gave ht the option to morph into archons). The only thing you listed that is similar to abduct is EMP but protoss moaned and whined so much about emp that it got nerfed multiple times (smaller aoe, less shield and energy drain). As for your HT/viper and ghost-viking/viper battle scenarios didn't people complain about how everything relied on their spellcaster being alive and casting their spell or they would lose the game? Isn't it really annoying to see how in tvp battle rely mostly on sniping the HT before the HT feedbacks the ghost? Combine that with the fact that the viper has a large amount mobility due to it being a flying unit and you have another one of those cases where "I have to constantly watch my army or it will be destroyed by abduct". Combine it with the fact that too much potential for abuse, especially when combined with that gawdawful game breaking spell, fungal. "OMG you're trying to abduct my units, let me move my army to kill....oh it was a trap where I got mass fungaled. gg I lost the game." This is going to create scenarios where it is virtually risk-less for the zerg to set up these traps, while every action taken becomes a risk for the opponent.
My other problem with abduct is the design of it itself. At least with forcefield if you can "mess" up with it and block your own army. How can you mess up with abduct? Getting your viper killed? Not abducting something where it can be killed by your army? Is anybody starting to see the problem now? Abduct, like a lot of zerg spells (and most spells in the game), are too gimmicky. The imagination of people's expectation of how "amazing" it seems to see such spells in action become instantly deflated when it become clear how broken and frustrating it was to deal with them. Case in point, ghost snipe. The idea of doing tons and tons of damage as fast as your fingers clicked was amazing....until you realized that you could basically counter every unit zerg had in doing so (I sorta disagree with this assessment but this is what zergs whined and moaned about). However, blizzard doesn't seem to want to actually put deep thought into their spell design, leading to the raven and fungal change. Fungal not being useful enough? LET'S INCREASE THE SPEED AND RANGE. Thus instead of fixing the actual problem, they just exacerbate the problem, but I've gone on enough tangents.
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On December 24 2012 01:06 Xanbatou wrote:
you guys need to calm down now. like I said before in the thread, blizzard is just testing numbers. Dustin said on his Twitter that they were going to nerf infestors again in the next patch.
Tell me any point, why you would want to test a range 10. There are so many other things they SHOULD test. capslock off.
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On December 23 2012 23:48 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:
How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors. The reason why the viper is an all or nothing unit is like the reason the infestor neural parasite was an all or nothing unit. Sure you could "neural" important units with the infestor but why would you when the risk of losing an infestor was not enough to justify neuraling that unit. It's the same with abduct. Sure you could "abduct" three of the eight tanks, but if you lose 3 vipers in the process then the trade actually favors the terran at that point. That's the problem with these "all or nothing" spells like we see with abduct, neural parasite and fungal. I wouldn't call them all or nothing though, as it seems to me that there is just so much reason you would use anything BUT those spells that the only way to balance them would be to make them "nothing". Abduct, like fungal and neural parasite, is just too good for what it is. Sure BW had spells like these such as Mind Control, but this was justified due to the large energy cost, cost of the unit, and how long it took to get there. The viper is an easily massable unit at lair tech that flies and pulls things towards it. Is anyone else seeing the problem here?
Actually, no. You're making me think Blizzard needs to put MORE spells in here because they're so cool. So what you're saying is that vipers have a high risk/high reward for successful micro and the opponent has to try to protect against it. And even after you abduct the unit could still be saved if you were really good. That sounds really cool, and it sounds like there's a lot of differences in what could happen depending on the positioning of the units. I'm surprised you compared it Mind Control instead of Spawn Broodling (which actually comes earlier, and just instantly kills a unit, might I add).
If anything that means we should have more spells like it. In fact, I'm a little suspicious here. Is there any spell in Starcraft 1 or 2 that you like? Why do you like it?
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United States7483 Posts
On December 24 2012 02:15 Empirimancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 01:16 rEalGuapo wrote:
MsC gives so much defensive power that I feel going for dual Forge and fast Storm is really doable in PvT.
Someone's going to have to explain this one to me. Photon Overcharge gives a Nexus the DPS of one photon canon for a minute, and the MsC itself does a little damage. It helps against really early game cheese, but otherwise? Meh.
It's more the range and duration, along with the fact that the nexus has a TON of hp so it's hard to kill to stop the cannon. The range + forcefields allows for protoss to not only lock zerg out of his base, but actually also kill the attacking units, especially if you trap their units with the forcefields. Plus, the mothership core, more importantly than anything else, allows for protoss to scout the map much earlier in the game and keep vision of attacking routes, along with the actual dps of the mothership core which helps out a bit. It's much harder to blindside a protoss who skipped fast observer now with aggression.
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On December 24 2012 04:52 SpecKROELLchen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 01:06 Xanbatou wrote:
you guys need to calm down now. like I said before in the thread, blizzard is just testing numbers. Dustin said on his Twitter that they were going to nerf infestors again in the next patch. Tell me any point, why you would want to test a range 10. There are so many other things they SHOULD test. capslock off.
Because with range 8 a lot of people were under the impression that
1) the unit itself was bad
2) without a strong fungal, Zerg was lacking options to deal with certain units
not that I think this (or exactly this) was needed. But that's the reason why you would want to test a range 10.
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On December 24 2012 07:59 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 23:48 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:
How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors. The reason why the viper is an all or nothing unit is like the reason the infestor neural parasite was an all or nothing unit. Sure you could "neural" important units with the infestor but why would you when the risk of losing an infestor was not enough to justify neuraling that unit. It's the same with abduct. Sure you could "abduct" three of the eight tanks, but if you lose 3 vipers in the process then the trade actually favors the terran at that point. That's the problem with these "all or nothing" spells like we see with abduct, neural parasite and fungal. I wouldn't call them all or nothing though, as it seems to me that there is just so much reason you would use anything BUT those spells that the only way to balance them would be to make them "nothing". Abduct, like fungal and neural parasite, is just too good for what it is. Sure BW had spells like these such as Mind Control, but this was justified due to the large energy cost, cost of the unit, and how long it took to get there. The viper is an easily massable unit at lair tech that flies and pulls things towards it. Is anyone else seeing the problem here? Actually, no. You're making me think Blizzard needs to put MORE spells in here because they're so cool. So what you're saying is that vipers have a high risk/high reward for successful micro and the opponent has to try to protect against it. And even after you abduct the unit could still be saved if you were really good. That sounds really cool, and it sounds like there's a lot of differences in what could happen depending on the positioning of the units. I'm surprised you compared it Mind Control instead of Spawn Broodling (which actually comes earlier, and just instantly kills a unit, might I add). If anything that means we should have more spells like it. In fact, I'm a little suspicious here. Is there any spell in Starcraft 1 or 2 that you like? Why do you like it?
There are two types of abilities in this world. Those that promote micro, and those that prevent or restrict it. The hallmark of the former type is that the enemy can continue microing to mitigate the damage even after the ability has been used. Blink, psi storm, stim, siege mode, phoenix lift, blinding cloud, infested Terran, heat seeker missile... these are examples of micro promoting spells. Think about how micro usually intensifies rather than decreases after these abilities are used. Meanwhile, those that actually restrict micro include current patch fungal, force field, abduct, vortex, oracle's slowing ability, feedback. These spells either lock down multiple units, preventing them from microing, or do massive damage instantly.
Now, almost everyone understands why abilities like fungal prevent micro... They lock down entire groups units, making them unable to even move. Fungal defenders (what few there are) would argue that this promotes Pre splitting units, and thus, fungal actually promotes micro. But Pre splitting is actually one of the least interesting varieties of micro. Consider how it works: you Pre split your units. The enemy engages, uses fungal and rolls in. If you didn't split correctly, you die. Notice that the most micro intensive part of this engagement is the pre splitting. Once the actual battle commences and fungals are going down, any micro you do (assuming you were Pre split perfectly) will simply cause your units to bunch up more, thus, micro is discouraged.
Instant high damage spells are bad for similar reasons. Once the spell has been cast, there is no more micro. Either you Pre positioned and intercepted enough of the enemy casters, or you take massive damage. This bland dynamic is what is referred to by "all or nothing". It has nothing to do with the high risk, high reward nature of the unit, but rather the fact that everything is resting on a Pre emptive reaction from one player. Either you prevent the spells from hitting too many of your units or you don't. There is no microing DURING the exchange of fire/spells like with the better spells in starcraft.
Hope this clears up the difference between good, micro and spectating friendly units/spells and those that don't make the grade.
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