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On December 23 2012 23:22 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:21 Sailincieri wrote:
Im totally confused.
First Blizz says "we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army." - great idea, its what players wanted. Nerf spells that totally destroys micro and makes game boring to watch and play.
And now this big buff? And the reason: "We feel the initial nerfs to Fungal Growth were too much especially in ZvZ".
Realy?! How fungal can be too weak in ZvZ? Its mirror... Because the other path would be too much work for them. They have a 3 month deadline and they will rather buff the infestor than try to go around it. Blizzard is famous for prolonging the release of the games/expansion because they put quality on first place. It seems their policy changed.
This expansion has taken them longer than any previous one, yet there are fewer changes than ever. They spent seemingly all their time on the same few units, such as the widow mine.
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Let's try to stop talking about infestor nerfs and buffs. I think fungal should be powerful but that chain-finals shouldn't be as easy to execute and energy efficient. It doesn't need a nerf, it needs a slight redesign.
I'd also like to see Zerg and Protoss drop play be a little less susceptible to widow mines and fungal. Terran can now avoid widow mines and fungal more easily with boosted medivac. In the case of Protoss, widow mines can be negated by sending in hallucinated phoenix beforehand, although I have not seen it done yet. However, fungal can destroy drop play quite easily. I'd like to see warp prism get a short range blink/warp jump :-) to dodge with long cooldown. I'd also like to see better drop play for zerg, either by making overseer a faster and larger transport and/or redesign nydus.
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On December 24 2012 11:03 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 07:59 DoubleReed wrote:On December 23 2012 23:48 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:
How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors. The reason why the viper is an all or nothing unit is like the reason the infestor neural parasite was an all or nothing unit. Sure you could "neural" important units with the infestor but why would you when the risk of losing an infestor was not enough to justify neuraling that unit. It's the same with abduct. Sure you could "abduct" three of the eight tanks, but if you lose 3 vipers in the process then the trade actually favors the terran at that point. That's the problem with these "all or nothing" spells like we see with abduct, neural parasite and fungal. I wouldn't call them all or nothing though, as it seems to me that there is just so much reason you would use anything BUT those spells that the only way to balance them would be to make them "nothing". Abduct, like fungal and neural parasite, is just too good for what it is. Sure BW had spells like these such as Mind Control, but this was justified due to the large energy cost, cost of the unit, and how long it took to get there. The viper is an easily massable unit at lair tech that flies and pulls things towards it. Is anyone else seeing the problem here? Actually, no. You're making me think Blizzard needs to put MORE spells in here because they're so cool. So what you're saying is that vipers have a high risk/high reward for successful micro and the opponent has to try to protect against it. And even after you abduct the unit could still be saved if you were really good. That sounds really cool, and it sounds like there's a lot of differences in what could happen depending on the positioning of the units. I'm surprised you compared it Mind Control instead of Spawn Broodling (which actually comes earlier, and just instantly kills a unit, might I add). If anything that means we should have more spells like it. In fact, I'm a little suspicious here. Is there any spell in Starcraft 1 or 2 that you like? Why do you like it? There are two types of abilities in this world. Those that promote micro, and those that prevent or restrict it. The hallmark of the former type is that the enemy can continue microing to mitigate the damage even after the ability has been used. Blink, psi storm, stim, siege mode, phoenix lift, blinding cloud, infested Terran, heat seeker missile... these are examples of micro promoting spells. Think about how micro usually intensifies rather than decreases after these abilities are used. Meanwhile, those that actually restrict micro include current patch fungal, force field, abduct, vortex, oracle's slowing ability, feedback. These spells either lock down multiple units, preventing them from microing, or do massive damage instantly. Now, almost everyone understands why abilities like fungal prevent micro... They lock down entire groups units, making them unable to even move. Fungal defenders (what few there are) would argue that this promotes Pre splitting units, and thus, fungal actually promotes micro. But Pre splitting is actually one of the least interesting varieties of micro. Consider how it works: you Pre split your units. The enemy engages, uses fungal and rolls in. If you didn't split correctly, you die. Notice that the most micro intensive part of this engagement is the pre splitting. Once the actual battle commences and fungals are going down, any micro you do (assuming you were Pre split perfectly) will simply cause your units to bunch up more, thus, micro is discouraged. Instant high damage spells are bad for similar reasons. Once the spell has been cast, there is no more micro. Either you Pre positioned and intercepted enough of the enemy casters, or you take massive damage. This bland dynamic is what is referred to by "all or nothing". It has nothing to do with the high risk, high reward nature of the unit, but rather the fact that everything is resting on a Pre emptive reaction from one player. Either you prevent the spells from hitting too many of your units or you don't. There is no microing DURING the exchange of fire/spells like with the better spells in starcraft. Hope this clears up the difference between good, micro and spectating friendly units/spells and those that don't make the grade.
Okay, how are phoenix lift, infested terran, or hunter seeker micro+ spells? Because I'm not seeing it. Infested Terran is just a spamming spell if anything. Phoenix Lift freezes a unit and makes it unable to do anything and unmicroable. How could you claim that Phoenix Lift is a micro+ spell and, say, Neural Parasite isn't? I'm even a little skeptical that you would call Blinding Cloud a micro+...
Instant high damage spells... like hunter seeker?? Or hell, what about the BW psi storm? And I'm going to have to call you out on almost all of your spell 'categories'. I simply fail to see how you claim that abduct prevents micro, especially in comparison to hunter seeker or phoenix lift. Sheesh.
Some of my spells mess with my own units and some of my spells mess with your units. Oracle Time Freeze, Force Field, and Abduct are spells that mess with your units. Deal with it.
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I base my statements on how units work in real games, not just x or y characteristic. Phoenix lift creates lots of micro despite immobilizing a unit. Why? Because graviton beam not only freezes a unit, but changes it to air for attacking purposes. Without this ability Phoenix can't harass, engage or pick off stray ground units, workers. With the ability, it's able to dart into enemy territory and take advantage in holes in the enemy's anti air defenses. So overall it's a spell that increases potential targets and encourages harass. The amount of engagements, harass and micro are all increased.
Abduct, on the other hand, can't really be used for harass, since vipers can't kill units by themselves. You can't form a squad of vipers and fly around doing neat shit. They're strictly an army support unit, used for dragging enemy units not covered by sufficient aa into your nearby waiting army, obliterating the target unit (given zerg dps) pretty much instantly. This is the spell's one real usage, other than maybe saving ultras (which I admit would be cool, but is rare given the games I've watched).
The key difference is that it's possible to drive away a squad of harassing Phoenixes even as they lift units, by chasing them with anti air... With vipers, a few units instantly get pulled into the swarm and vaporized. Phoenix lift doesn't move the targeted unit directly into your army; in fact, if used during a battle, lifting usually prevents some of the toss army from damaging the lifted unit. Lifting something like a tank will still require your Phoenixes to focus it down for a relatively long period of time, perhaps 2-3 seconds. Compare this with dragging a unit into your army, which makes it nearly instantly dead with no precious seconds to save it. In an rts such differences are huge.
As for hunter seeker and bw psi storm, the damage is never instant. Hunter seeker takes time to fly to the target, giving the enemy time to react. In hots you even get a visual indicator to help you save the target. And bw psi storm could easily be dodged by units like hydras, unburrowed lurkers, etc. you'd take some damage, but could dodge most of it even after the storm went down.
Edit; I'd just like to clarify that abduct is by no means the worst ability. It's about on the same level as Pre nerfs ghost snipe. A little too effective vs certain units and very little way for the enemy to micro out of it other than intercepting your vipers BEFORE they cast. A simple way to fix would be something like if the target moves significantly during the animation then the abduct tentacle or w/e will miss, and then rebalance the ability taking the dodge potential into account.
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On December 24 2012 11:59 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 11:03 Zahir wrote:On December 24 2012 07:59 DoubleReed wrote:On December 23 2012 23:48 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:
How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors. The reason why the viper is an all or nothing unit is like the reason the infestor neural parasite was an all or nothing unit. Sure you could "neural" important units with the infestor but why would you when the risk of losing an infestor was not enough to justify neuraling that unit. It's the same with abduct. Sure you could "abduct" three of the eight tanks, but if you lose 3 vipers in the process then the trade actually favors the terran at that point. That's the problem with these "all or nothing" spells like we see with abduct, neural parasite and fungal. I wouldn't call them all or nothing though, as it seems to me that there is just so much reason you would use anything BUT those spells that the only way to balance them would be to make them "nothing". Abduct, like fungal and neural parasite, is just too good for what it is. Sure BW had spells like these such as Mind Control, but this was justified due to the large energy cost, cost of the unit, and how long it took to get there. The viper is an easily massable unit at lair tech that flies and pulls things towards it. Is anyone else seeing the problem here? Actually, no. You're making me think Blizzard needs to put MORE spells in here because they're so cool. So what you're saying is that vipers have a high risk/high reward for successful micro and the opponent has to try to protect against it. And even after you abduct the unit could still be saved if you were really good. That sounds really cool, and it sounds like there's a lot of differences in what could happen depending on the positioning of the units. I'm surprised you compared it Mind Control instead of Spawn Broodling (which actually comes earlier, and just instantly kills a unit, might I add). If anything that means we should have more spells like it. In fact, I'm a little suspicious here. Is there any spell in Starcraft 1 or 2 that you like? Why do you like it? There are two types of abilities in this world. Those that promote micro, and those that prevent or restrict it. The hallmark of the former type is that the enemy can continue microing to mitigate the damage even after the ability has been used. Blink, psi storm, stim, siege mode, phoenix lift, blinding cloud, infested Terran, heat seeker missile... these are examples of micro promoting spells. Think about how micro usually intensifies rather than decreases after these abilities are used. Meanwhile, those that actually restrict micro include current patch fungal, force field, abduct, vortex, oracle's slowing ability, feedback. These spells either lock down multiple units, preventing them from microing, or do massive damage instantly. Now, almost everyone understands why abilities like fungal prevent micro... They lock down entire groups units, making them unable to even move. Fungal defenders (what few there are) would argue that this promotes Pre splitting units, and thus, fungal actually promotes micro. But Pre splitting is actually one of the least interesting varieties of micro. Consider how it works: you Pre split your units. The enemy engages, uses fungal and rolls in. If you didn't split correctly, you die. Notice that the most micro intensive part of this engagement is the pre splitting. Once the actual battle commences and fungals are going down, any micro you do (assuming you were Pre split perfectly) will simply cause your units to bunch up more, thus, micro is discouraged. Instant high damage spells are bad for similar reasons. Once the spell has been cast, there is no more micro. Either you Pre positioned and intercepted enough of the enemy casters, or you take massive damage. This bland dynamic is what is referred to by "all or nothing". It has nothing to do with the high risk, high reward nature of the unit, but rather the fact that everything is resting on a Pre emptive reaction from one player. Either you prevent the spells from hitting too many of your units or you don't. There is no microing DURING the exchange of fire/spells like with the better spells in starcraft. Hope this clears up the difference between good, micro and spectating friendly units/spells and those that don't make the grade. Okay, how are phoenix lift, infested terran, or hunter seeker micro+ spells? Because I'm not seeing it. Infested Terran is just a spamming spell if anything. Phoenix Lift freezes a unit and makes it unable to do anything and unmicroable. How could you claim that Phoenix Lift is a micro+ spell and, say, Neural Parasite isn't? I'm even a little skeptical that you would call Blinding Cloud a micro+... Instant high damage spells... like hunter seeker?? Or hell, what about the BW psi storm? And I'm going to have to call you out on almost all of your spell 'categories'. I simply fail to see how you claim that abduct prevents micro, especially in comparison to hunter seeker or phoenix lift. Sheesh. Some of my spells mess with my own units and some of my spells mess with your units. Oracle Time Freeze, Force Field, and Abduct are spells that mess with your units. Deal with it.
You can't shouldn't really argue against points using units that might not have been mentioned when many examples were already given.. Also, you finish off saying deal with it! But that is just the point, once these anti-micro spells hit you can't deal with it.. I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
This includes phoenix and current hunter seeker. The phoenix might have gone unmentioned because graviton beam makes both units unmicroable, so its a very fair trade-off. And hunter seeker is probably going to be changed as it is basically yamato.
What @Zahir is saying is that SC2 has to many of anti-micro abilities that do not promote counter-play by micro. And many agree that this is not good for competitive play or enjoyment and is very frustrating. Surly more of these abilities could be better designed so that they promote micro before the ability is cast and for it's duration.
These abilities also have varying degrees of how much they limit micro for their duration. And the ones that stand out are the ones that have very few ways to counter them. For me the worst is fungal (and old Vortex) because its easy and safe to use and abuse and highly frustrating to deal with and watch. Fungal is closely followed by force-field, concussion, time warp. High instant damage spells are also anti-micro and annoying like fungal and emp, which abduct basically mimics. Feedback and Abduct are basically the same because you can insta-kill 1 unit. The thing is that abduct is more versatile and not as micro intensive.
This has got absolutely nothing to do with balance, but rather with design.. Let's please take that into account in our arguments and explain why these abilities are good/bad design.
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On December 23 2012 14:17 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 13:55 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 23 2012 12:26 pmp10 wrote:On December 23 2012 12:22 Whitewing wrote:
Actually no, that's not it at all. They re-buffed fungal because ZvZ was turning into a muta vs. muta fest, and nobody could figure out how to deal with it, since infestors no longer shut down mutalisks.
And what was Blizzards response to TvT turning into reaper vs reaper? 'Let's wait and see' Blizzard cares little for mirrors as they can see that non-mirrors are quickly turning into a mess. Blizzard's responses are never uniform, and why they make changes quickly sometimes and never other times seems incredibly irrational. To them, balancing and designing the game isn't a science where you listen to logic and reasoning and look at statistics. Instead, they haphazardly throws things together like the Warhound and Entomb and hope they work. But the community knew from the get-go that these were bad ideas, because we actually thought about them and used logic and reasoning. But instead of thinking about them, they wasted their own money and their time and ours testing them... It apparently doesn't bother them though, because once they realize their ideas are bad, they can copy and paste the exact same reasons (Entomb is a skilless ability, the Warhound is a factory Marauder) the community didn't like them before they were tested into their posts on why they need to be removed! On December 23 2012 02:55 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 02:23 Hider wrote:On December 23 2012 01:44 Dynamitekid wrote:On December 23 2012 01:39 PanzerElite wrote:On December 23 2012 01:24 Dynamitekid wrote:
Is it me or are the new units in HOTS are really boring except the viper? The viper is so silly, have you seen today's gsl show matches? Silly in stupid design/animation. It's horrible to see thors/collosus/tanks/tempest/medivacs being pulled. It looks so silly i can't take hots serious anymore. Sounds like you are QQ. Do you know what is silly? The medvac +5hp regen and boost upgrade. I think protoss got the short end of the stick in HOTS stop whining over balance. Honestly the viper is stupid. That pull just looks so retarded, and I think people will get tired of it pretty quickly. It's another one of those microkillers, where the opponent can't do anything. He is just goanna lose unit x every single time. It may be balanced but its terrible design wise. Oh look anther terran Vipers with Abduct are another terrible "all or nothing unit." Either the unit completely changes the game or does nothing, much like Widow Mines, the Oracle, ect... These units are impossible to balance because they are either too strong or too weak, there is no in between due to how they are designed. Blizzard doesn't seem to know how to design units anymore, and what soft counters are. The Viper has to go, or rather Abduct has to go. How is the viper all of nothing? What is it about their design that makes no in between? If I abduct three of the eight tanks, is that not in between? In that case, it didn't completely change the game, but nor did it do nothing. It did something in between. Abduct is an interesting spell, and I like it. Terran also has the ability of picking off the vipers (through vikings or ghosts), which is something you can't do against infestors.
I think other people answered this question quite well, and I'm happy to see the community understand and agree. Referring to them as all or nothing probably isn't the best way to describe them literally though.
The point is that if the spell does what it is supposed to do it can instantly change the game because it is so powerful, and it limits the ability to micro. Vortex is (was) best the example. Fungal Growth is another good example. Let explain me you Abduct: An army of Roaches and Hydras is terrible against a Protoss Colossus/Sentry/Stalker deathball. But you overmake Vipers so they can't be picked off quickly, thereby ensuring that you can land Abduct, then you can kill the Colossus easily and run over the Protoss player. So there you see the dynamic, either you land the Abducts and win, or you don't and lose. Therefore, it is very difficult to balance.
The spell is so powerful once casted, the only way to stop it is to kill off all the Vipers before they get into range. Thus if the range is too great or Zerg can overmake Vipers easily, then the spell will dominate the game. However, if Zerg can't overmake Vipers easily and can't get into range, then the spell doesn't work at all, and no one will build Vipers.
So in the end, either Protoss can counter the spell effectively, meaning Vipers can't cast it, or it can't be countered and then it is overpowered. There is no inbetween.
Or as someone else put it more eloquently:
My point was that the fact is that abduct is so ridiculously strong and that the only counter to it is to be able snipe the viper before it pulled the abduct off, thus the only way to balance it was to make it where it would almost be pointless to try abduct in the first place.
Spells like Guardian Shield, Stim, Blink, and even Storm are better in my opinion, because (and as others said) they promote micro and skill.
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On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:
You can't shouldn't really argue against points using units that might not have been mentioned when many examples were already given.. Also, you finish off saying deal with it! But that is just the point, once these anti-micro spells hit you can't deal with it.. I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
This includes phoenix and current hunter seeker. The phoenix might have gone unmentioned because graviton beam makes both units unmicroable, so its a very fair trade-off. And hunter seeker is probably going to be changed as it is basically yamato.
What @Zahir is saying is that SC2 has to many of anti-micro abilities that do not promote counter-play by micro. And many agree that this is not good for competitive play or enjoyment and is very frustrating. Surly more of these abilities could be better designed so that they promote micro before the ability is cast and for it's duration.
These abilities also have varying degrees of how much they limit micro for their duration. And the ones that stand out are the ones that have very few ways to counter them. For me the worst is fungal (and old Vortex) because its easy and safe to use and abuse and highly frustrating to deal with and watch. Fungal is closely followed by force-field, concussion, time warp. High instant damage spells are also anti-micro and annoying like fungal and emp, which abduct basically mimics. Feedback and Abduct are basically the same because you can insta-kill 1 unit. The thing is that abduct is more versatile and not as micro intensive.
This has got absolutely nothing to do with balance, but rather with design.. Let's please take that into account in our arguments and explain why these abilities are good/bad design.
This is the problem when trying to explain how to balance the game or trying to give suggestions towards balancing the game. There are so many design problems with SC2 that you could write chapters about each problem (I'm currently trying to write one about fungal  ) and people still wouldn't notice. Then when you do make a good contribution you are instantly dismiss by haters who say you don't know what you're talking about or that you're just trying to balance whine. Plus there are so many assumptions that STILL are being told about SC2 that sometimes I just want to give up (such as zerg is supposed the be the "macro" and "reactive" race to name a few). However, what bothers me the most that clearly a lot of us are a lot smarter and more passionate about balancing the game, yet blizzard rewards us by hey! throwing out this monstrosity of a patch that insults the intelligence of most SC2 fans out there.
The other thing I don't think people understand is that it's not about adding stuff in the game that "looks and seems cool", it's about making the game AS DYNAMIC AS POSSIBLE. And blizzard has shown us time an time again that they're incapable of doing so. Almost everything they have added so far adds nothing to make the game dynamic and the only thing that did (widow mine) got nerfed to oblivion. Everything else is a gimmick. Oracle, swarm host, warhound, mothership core, even raven seeker missile are just some of the ridiculous things that we were supposed to swallow because it made the game "more fun to watch". However, when push came to shove, blizzard STILL had to buff the most ridiculously imbalanced spell in the game because zerg was STILL having trouble when it came mutas, etc. Hey, isn't obvious that when you have to buff the strongest spell in the game because that race is still too weak without it then MAYBE THERE'S STILL SOMETHING WRONG WITH THE DESIGN OF THAT RACE?
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On December 24 2012 11:26 winsonsonho wrote:
Let's try to stop talking about infestor nerfs and buffs. I think fungal should be powerful but that chain-finals shouldn't be as easy to execute and energy efficient. It doesn't need a nerf, it needs a slight redesign.
I'd also like to see Zerg and Protoss drop play be a little less susceptible to widow mines and fungal. Terran can now avoid widow mines and fungal more easily with boosted medivac. In the case of Protoss, widow mines can be negated by sending in hallucinated phoenix beforehand, although I have not seen it done yet. However, fungal can destroy drop play quite easily. I'd like to see warp prism get a short range blink/warp jump :-) to dodge with long cooldown. I'd also like to see better drop play for zerg, either by making overseer a faster and larger transport and/or redesign nydus.
I would fully agree with you here, but the OBVIOUS solutionS (big plural!) have never ever been tried by Blizzard yet. Something like slow OR making the lockdown last only 2 seconds so you can micro again OR making fungaled units immune to new Fungals OR giving a unit a certain time of immunity to Fungal after it was hit by it ...
This is depressing and time is running out. I would hazard a guess that Blizzard and their devs wont skip their christmas holidays, so its basically only two months left to try new stuff and that is not a lot.
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The real solution to making the spells less strong would be to reduce unit density to BW levels. That solves many problems almost instantly (with a slight rebalancing of unit stats) while keeping the spell LOOK STRONG while not actually being overpowered anymore. All spells with "100% effects" are bad and should be redesigned OR at least made harder/riskier to use. Spreading out all units and reducing the numbers of units on the map in general would accomplish that easily. All you need to do is figure out which mechanics need to change to achieve that.
Fungal specifically doesnt have a "splash damage effect" which reduces the damage and effect the closer you get to the edge of the spell and this makes it super strong. So the only thing you can do is have your units pre-split and thus reduce your own efficiency. Psi Storm doesnt have a splash effect either, but at least you can walk out of it easily, so it isnt as terrible as Fungal.
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On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary.
I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists.
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On December 24 2012 17:58 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 13:58 winsonsonho wrote:I feel that you just gave your opinion, whereas @Zahir argued his points very objectively. You're just wasting your time if you argue like this.
Zahir's method of categorization was completely subjective and somewhat arbitrary. I still can't believe people are complaining about the Viper when the Infestor exists.
I fully agree that the infestor is a much bigger problem than the viper. Any sort of powerful aoe root + damage + near instant projectile ability is hideous for an rts from both a gameplay and spectating standpoint.
What you said about what I said applies to basically anything anyone says about HotS. No one has an objective definition of what a good rts is, but we can at least find some reasoned consensus within the community based on analysis and commonly held, intuitive beliefs about what makes a good rts, see how the game developers' own comments and changes to the game mesh with what we believe, and react accordingly. That's about as 'objective' a standard as we can hope for in this case.
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On December 23 2012 12:26 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 12:22 Whitewing wrote:
Actually no, that's not it at all. They re-buffed fungal because ZvZ was turning into a muta vs. muta fest, and nobody could figure out how to deal with it, since infestors no longer shut down mutalisks.
And what was Blizzards response to TvT turning into reaper vs reaper? 'Let's wait and see' Blizzard cares little for mirrors as they can see that non-mirrors are quickly turning into a mess.
thats why we have siege tanks that deal 35+15 damage and thats why the Hellion upgrade only deals +5. Because Blizzard wanted to fix something else then Viking/Tank and Hellions roasting workers in TvT. They basically ruined mech because of TvT ~.~ (Well the Immortal buff was Pumas fault).
Anyway the fungal is just number testing, seeing how good people hit with it etc. I hope range 10 stays, because it means they will have to make chain fungaling harder. Which will make unit awareness more important.
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On December 24 2012 21:58 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 12:26 pmp10 wrote:On December 23 2012 12:22 Whitewing wrote:
Actually no, that's not it at all. They re-buffed fungal because ZvZ was turning into a muta vs. muta fest, and nobody could figure out how to deal with it, since infestors no longer shut down mutalisks.
And what was Blizzards response to TvT turning into reaper vs reaper? 'Let's wait and see' Blizzard cares little for mirrors as they can see that non-mirrors are quickly turning into a mess. thats why we have siege tanks that deal 35+15 damage and thats why the Hellion upgrade only deals +5. Because Blizzard wanted to fix something else then Viking/Tank and Hellions roasting workers in TvT. They basically ruined mech because of TvT ~.~ (Well the Immortal buff was Pumas fault). Anyway the fungal is just number testing, seeing how good people hit with it etc. I hope range 10 stays, because it means they will have to make chain fungaling harder. Which will make unit awareness more important.
About reapers in TvT... Blizzard said explicitly that they have noticed their power in TvT but want to push the reaper further, to see if they become better vs P and Z.
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I wasn't sure what Hunter Seeker you were referring to.
Anyway, Phoenix is directly a harassing unit, while Viper is clearly not. So I think it's rather weird to say that Phoenix lift is more micro-oriented because it can be used to harass... More micro-oriented doesn't just mean harassment...
Maybe there could be a delay when the abduct happens (like the tongue gets stuck for a second and then the viper says "get over here!"), giving you more of an opportunity to shoot down the viper?
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On December 25 2012 00:27 DoubleReed wrote:
I wasn't sure what Hunter Seeker you were referring to.
Anyway, Phoenix is directly a harassing unit, while Viper is clearly not. So I think it's rather weird to say that Phoenix lift is more micro-oriented because it can be used to harass... More micro-oriented doesn't just mean harassment...
Maybe there could be a delay when the abduct happens (like the tongue gets stuck for a second and then the viper says "get over here!"), giving you more of an opportunity to shoot down the viper?
Have it pudge style, where they hit the first unit in its path (probably only enemy units tho). That would make it incredibly skill oriented while giving the enemy a chance to dodge. Not to mention cool to watch for spectators.
Could also potentially only hit air units, so it will skip everything thats not collosus of the ground units. Also would make for interesting strategies where toss have to incorporate air units with their collosus to keep them safe.
Why haven't blizz hired me yet?
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On December 25 2012 00:40 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2012 00:27 DoubleReed wrote:
I wasn't sure what Hunter Seeker you were referring to.
Anyway, Phoenix is directly a harassing unit, while Viper is clearly not. So I think it's rather weird to say that Phoenix lift is more micro-oriented because it can be used to harass... More micro-oriented doesn't just mean harassment...
Maybe there could be a delay when the abduct happens (like the tongue gets stuck for a second and then the viper says "get over here!"), giving you more of an opportunity to shoot down the viper? Have it pudge style, where they hit the first unit in its path (probably only enemy units tho). That would make it incredibly skill oriented while giving the enemy a chance to dodge. Not to mention cool to watch for spectators.
It would be way to easy to counter then, and would require too much micro to pull off.
I do like the idea of giving Abduct a delay (I think 2 seconds would be perfect), where the tongue sticks before pulling the unit, giving you time to react and shoot down the Viper. That would be a decent solution to the spell. Still, I think the idea of the spell isn't good for the game.
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You can't do abduct which is similar to the one in dota. There it has a nice positional dynamic, you can try and hide behind other units to counter the ability, This works because there are only a few units on the field, most of which you don't even control. Starcraft 2 is a lot more crowded and there are fewer obvious targets.
Let's say that you start out with the meat hook from dota. You remove friendly fire, because it's too punishing for melee units, but you keep that it draws the first unit it hits. This ability would have no place on the viper, it's too weak. Maybe you could add it to the infestor as a replacement for neural: 25 energy for one of these hooks, 8 range, zero damage, doesn't hit air, unit is invulnerable while grabbing it, the hook is slow enough you can avoid it with a fast unit if you predicted it.
I don't think that ability would work.
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All I hope is that the blink stalker all in's I have been getting lately are a little easier to deal with now ^_^ I'm liking how they nerfed fungal in one way but now are buffing it in a separate mechanic in which it works now. We shall see where that leads to.
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I couldn't help but lol at the fungal change, pure comedy.
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On December 24 2012 23:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2012 21:58 FeyFey wrote:On December 23 2012 12:26 pmp10 wrote:On December 23 2012 12:22 Whitewing wrote:
Actually no, that's not it at all. They re-buffed fungal because ZvZ was turning into a muta vs. muta fest, and nobody could figure out how to deal with it, since infestors no longer shut down mutalisks.
And what was Blizzards response to TvT turning into reaper vs reaper? 'Let's wait and see' Blizzard cares little for mirrors as they can see that non-mirrors are quickly turning into a mess. thats why we have siege tanks that deal 35+15 damage and thats why the Hellion upgrade only deals +5. Because Blizzard wanted to fix something else then Viking/Tank and Hellions roasting workers in TvT. They basically ruined mech because of TvT ~.~ (Well the Immortal buff was Pumas fault). Anyway the fungal is just number testing, seeing how good people hit with it etc. I hope range 10 stays, because it means they will have to make chain fungaling harder. Which will make unit awareness more important. About reapers in TvT... Blizzard said explicitly that they have noticed their power in TvT but want to push the reaper further, to see if they become better vs P and Z.
The thing with this is I can't see how the reaper will ever be a good choice in the other match ups, sans an all in or two. In no situation as a terran would I want to make reapers against a toss, especially now that they don't massacre buildings like they used to. Queen range and speed on creep makes using reapers in tvz not useful (not really BAD per say but not worth while) I'd much rather invest in a factory and widow mine than a few reapers.
In the meanwhile TvT has resorted to, at least for me, almost a flow chart
Is my opponent going reapers?
100% no (no early gas)
reapers of my own
maybe
concussive marauders into banshee
TvT is so bad now a days, far from when it used to be the best match up of all. In my opinion they need to get rid of either reapers ability to see up cliffs, or reaper heal and or nerf their movement speed. I think with slightly slower reapers, something between now and prepatch, they'd become a unit viable in TvT (which is the only thing they're good for anyway) but not imbalanced and quite frankly not fun.
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I refuse to play hots until they revert the infestor range
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EPT
