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On December 26 2012 19:08 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 18:34 Zaurus wrote:
the problem is with infested terrans. you cannot mass infestors just for fungals, they will just die. Seriously, just remove infested terrans. switch to something you can cast on friendlies. change NP into dark swarm!!!! + change fungal to a no damage slow spell. --> infestor is now a support unit: dark swarm for your ranged units and fungal + dark swarm in some way for your melee units. IT are much MUCH worse after the nerfs they got. they do literally 1-3 DPS to +3 armor units in lategame which is fine. even 8 IT from an infestor does not do much damage especially since now 2-3 eggs die. so its 5 IT from the 8 surviving which is 5-15 DPS. no problem at all. if its still too much nerf IT damage by 1 so they are literally completely useless lategame.
NO NO NO ... you dont seem to understand the problem of MASS SPELLCASTERS with TOO GOOD SPELLS. Even if Infested Terrans now deal less damage their potential for killing bases remains. Just 2-3 of them can sneak into a base and easily annihilate it, so it should be removed entirely. Its the whole "burst potential" problem of WoW all over again basically.
Giving one spellcaster a "no damage cloud" AND a "slow" is a terrible idea as well. Sure these clouds dont really stack en masse, but if you keep the Infested Terran in the mix you still have the burst potential. Dark Swarm was a nice spell in BW, but in SC2 - where the Siege Tank deals pitiful damage to Zerglings - it would completely destroy the game.
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I don't understand people. First their mad that too many units in WoL are siloed into specific roles that have no redeeming qualities outside of that role (immortals, marauder, corrupter), then their mad at infestors for being a variety unit offering the player a number of options with them. I'm all for nerfing them because making 23 infestors in a game is not good design, but seriously, you want them to remove infested terran because the infestor shouldn't be a harasser? There's a certain point when you need to decide what kind of a starcraft you want––a game with very specific roles for each unit or a game where units offer a diversity of play and options.
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On December 26 2012 20:36 People_0f_Color wrote:
I don't understand people. First their mad that too many units in WoL are siloed into specific roles that have no redeeming qualities outside of that role (immortals, marauder, corrupter), then their mad at infestors for being a variety unit offering the player a number of options with them. I'm all for nerfing them because making 23 infestors in a game is not good design, but seriously, you want them to remove infested terran because the infestor shouldn't be a harasser? There's a certain point when you need to decide what kind of a starcraft you want––a game with very specific roles for each unit or a game where units offer a diversity of play and options.
We dont want units that you cant play without (Maybe except the queen, but thats a special case), this single unit is the reason Zergs are doing so well, if they removed it zerg would be UP, it got too many utilities in a single unit. And the worst thing is that it limits micro (Which is what is fun to watch for a spectater, seing MKP splitting marines vs banelings is fantastic, but seing chain fungal kill 25 vikings is not, because killing the vikings didnt require much APM, but splitting marines vs banelings do.
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On December 26 2012 20:36 People_0f_Color wrote:
I don't understand people. First their mad that too many units in WoL are siloed into specific roles that have no redeeming qualities outside of that role (immortals, marauder, corrupter), then their mad at infestors for being a variety unit offering the player a number of options with them. I'm all for nerfing them because making 23 infestors in a game is not good design, but seriously, you want them to remove infested terran because the infestor shouldn't be a harasser? There's a certain point when you need to decide what kind of a starcraft you want––a game with very specific roles for each unit or a game where units offer a diversity of play and options.
There is one issue that applies to both those examples.
It has to do with the relative strength of a unit. Immortals destroy tanks, so much that you eventually cant make tanks at all. This is not good. That fact that immortals kill roaches and makes PvZ midgame rather dynamic is better, and in that scenario the immortal is a perfectly fine unit.
The problem with the infestor is the relative strength of fungals and IT. They pretty much always destroy everything. You can't avoid fungals other than by pre splitting, which really promotes passive play more than anything else. ITs are too volatile, the damage output is high and the hitpoints are ok. It makes them good enough in every scenario.
In a perfect game, immortals would not be as powerful in specific situations and infestors should not be as powerful full stop. The reason I love phoenix is because they are mediocre at best in every situation, even against mutalisks. Yet, if you can control them properly they have a wide array of uses, which makes them adaptable but not "strong" as such.
Problem is that people don't understand how hard it is to make units like that. I am guessing some come out ok mostly due to luck and others not for the same reason. We can only find such states by experimentation and that is why I like it when Blizzard changes things a lot when the unit doesn't feel right.
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On December 26 2012 20:30 Rabiator wrote:
Dark Swarm was a nice spell in BW, but in SC2 - where the Siege Tank deals pitiful damage to Zerglings - it would completely destroy the game.
Siege Tanks dealt 35 damage to small targets (like Zerglings) in Brood War and they deal 35 damage to Zerglings in WoL/HotS. One vehicle weapons upgrade for a Siege Tank also still negates all ground carapace upgrades for a Zergling. With their new ability to not waste shots on "dead man walking" units, one might say they're even better against Zerglings in SC2.
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The real issue about fungal is not micro : pre-splitting is a form of micro. It's simply the fact that the major part of the spells in the game involve a particular style of micro, which is timed-micro.
A vast majority of people think as if micro was the ability to execute as many orders as possible given a certain time to do it. For example : if you have 3 seconds before banelings land on your bio, your micro will be judged by your capacity to repeat the same order (split) the maximum in the given 3 seconds. Perfect being as much split as there are marines.
But in theory, micro is simply the faculty to control units. So basically, what people don't like is the form of micro involved by fungal. What they did not understand is that on the zerg side, IT are the exact same version : IT are not really involving the same kind of micro, rather tactics.
Zergs don't say that tanks denies any form of micro as it lands for two reasons :
1/the unit instant-death (or instant damage)
2/the fact that they can mitigate it by multi-pronged attacks in Stephano's style.
So fungal as a root is not a stupid spell : it can be mitigated. BUT, numbers can be changed exactly as it could be for the splash radius of the tank. If this splash was considered too big, Zerg should not accuse the concept of splash : they should first work on solutions, then on numbers, finally on the concept.
I think that a time reduction (3 from 4 seconds) with the same damage (or reversed : 30-35 damage from 40 with same duration) would be a good start.
That's why i don't get Blizzard's way of balancing unit. Ok make it a visible spell with speed and stuff : all that changes is the luck involved ! Will he turn right or left ? But if you consider numbers first, the spell lands, having forced pre-split, and if the condition was fulfilled, the effects of the spell are well negated.
It would then become quite similar to storm : when it lands it's over, BUT you can 1/run out of it (storm) 2/split before it hits (fungal).
That's why people don't get the way fungal works : they want it to have the same mechanics as storm. It's not necessary. But what you realise when you get that the mechanics can and should be different, is that maps are not really favoring pre-split for terran (toss) as chokes are almost all the time money-places of battles.
For example, protoss should favor battles at chockes in early games (sentry) but avoid them in middle (fungal) and late-game (except ultra).
EDIT : Agreed with BigJ from page 78, he is right. It's the numbers ! And guys, don't ever forget that ROOTED unit are still inflicting dps while stormed unit, if they get away, dont while they are getting away. So all in all, i think this is balanced.
EDIT : I feel the real problem in TvZ is the fact that ghost are not made by terrans, for reasons that i totally miss (i'm no pro), but if they don't, it's probably that the cost is too big for it to be in play.
And for Infestors I can only say: They have been a ton of fun to play with/against and spectate in any scenario where they are managable. When they are not managable (like mass infestor lategame), they become boring and frustrating - just like anything that is not managable.
(And believe it or not; without Fungal many things - bio, Phoenix, Mutalisks - might become unmanageable (again) and, therefore, frustrating and boring)
This is pure wisdom (page 80) : the real problem is the fact than infestor can be massed (1) and that there is no real counter to this massing (2).
If it was only for (1), it shouldn't be a problem : the real one is the combination of (1) and (2). (2) is possible since terrans don't use ghosts enough (for a reason i don't get, probably not viable cause zerg is so versatile) and protosses have no way to get close to infestors whith mass HT to feedback them.
EDIT (last one) : I hate so much people saying "infestor is broken, design is bad, it should be totally removed". Do they have a brain ? It's much more complicated than they think : "it denies micro". NO !
What i feel is that there are so much people in the community that are actually frustrated to lose at their level because they don't pre-split, or even if they do, they don't understand that infestor CAN BE properly nerf IF people accept to think seriously about it and don't go on TL after a game they lost to spread their hatred.
But BigJ is right concerning the all-broken (vs BW) statement : units are so powerful that balance is slightly harder than before. In fact, effects of a single change have much more importance when units are so powerful and the balance-margin so thin. It's a higher-energy balance involved : if you imagine the game like an equilibrium between all units, a big net of forces opposed to other forces, all of them being linked, you realise that the stronger the forces, the stronger the effects when the balance breaks.
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On December 26 2012 22:27 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 20:30 Rabiator wrote:
Dark Swarm was a nice spell in BW, but in SC2 - where the Siege Tank deals pitiful damage to Zerglings - it would completely destroy the game. Siege Tanks dealt 35 damage to small targets (like Zerglings) in Brood War and they deal 35 damage to Zerglings in WoL/HotS. One vehicle weapons upgrade for a Siege Tank also still negates all ground carapace upgrades for a Zergling. With their new ability to not waste shots on "dead man walking" units, one might say they're even better against Zerglings in SC2.
Splash damage is nerfed, and more importantly the zerglings are much much faster than in BW. Thats the real issue. Killing one zergling doesn't really do anything, its about killing the group.
I think dark swarm would be a good spell thought. Remember you have to think in terms of design and not balance. A game can always be balanced to 50% later, but the real issue is having it fun and dynamic in the process.
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On December 26 2012 22:43 Glorfindel21 wrote:
The real issue about fungal is not micro : pre-splitting is a form of micro. It's simply the fact that the major part of the spells in the game involve a particular style of micro, which is timed-micro.
I disagree. Fungal removes the options you have for moving your units. No matter how that happens, it is not a good functionality. Every ability that does this, including force fields and concussive shells, is a detriment to the game. The difference is that fungal works on everything, not just non massive ground units, and it completely locks down movement as well as blink instead of just slowing or obstructing. On top of that it hits multiple targets, and does damage.
Some would argue that it is all of these things combined that makes fungal overpowered and they might be right. I am not so concerned with balance. The point is that any movement impairing effect is bad and fungal is by far the worst one we have.
Presplitting is not interesting and the worst thing you can do to pre split units is to move them, as that will break your formation. This creates a situation where you are punished for moving around which is not good. There is also several other reasons to pre split and take up defensive positions, fungals and force fields only punish mistakes in such positioning much harder than any other ability or unit.
A vast majority of people think as if micro was the ability to execute as many orders as possible given a certain time to do it. For example : if you have 3 seconds before banelings land on your bio, your micro will be judged by your capacity to repeat the same order (split) the maximum in the given 3 seconds. Perfect being as much split as there are marines.
But in theory, micro is simply the faculty to control units. So basically, what people don't like is the form of micro involved by fungal. What they did not understand is that on the zerg side, IT are the exact same version : IT are not really involving the same kind of micro, rather tactics.
But in many ZvZs, the number of ITs you can spam in a short time frame is directly influencing the power of your infestors in many engagements. In fact, your ability to siege and unsiege quickly directly influences your position in TvT as well. Speed simply lets you do the same things as everyone else, just faster.
What fungal does is remove options from the opponent. Not subtle ones, like how a 13 pool makes nexus firsts and pylon blocks less powerful. Options that involve issuing any kind of command to your units is what fungals remove. What is it that fungal adds that is so good it makes up for such a massive restriction?
Zergs don't say that tanks denies any form of micro as it lands for two reasons :
1/the unit instant-death (or instant damage)
2/the fact that they can mitigate it by multi-pronged attacks in Stephano's style.
Tanks might kill you if you go close, but at least you can decide if you want to stay in the killzone or retreat. On creep, infestors are faster than pretty much every protoss unit. There is never a risk that 12 siege tank might suddenly appear and land 12 sieged splash hits on your army, but if 12 infestors cruise in, that is exactly what happens. And if it happens, you are dead. Not injured, dead
Zergs dont say tanks deny micro because they don't.
So fungal as a root is not a stupid spell : it can be mitigated. BUT, numbers can be changed exactly as it could be for the splash radius of the tank. If this splash was considered too big, Zerg should not accuse the concept of splash : they should first work on solutions, then on numbers, finally on the concept.
This is the opposite of how I think you should work on anything. First know the concept of the unit and the ability. If it locks things in place and that sucks no matter how long it lasts, no matter how many units it affects or whether it does damage or not, then the ability is bad. It will either be too powerful and bad, or too weak and still bad.
Then you tinker with numbers based on the performance of an otherwise satisfactory ability.
That's why i don't get Blizzard's way of balancing unit. Ok make it a visible spell with speed and stuff : all that changes is the luck involved ! Will he turn right or left ? But if you consider numbers first, the spell lands, having forced pre-split, and if the condition was fulfilled, the effects of the spell are well negated.
It would then become quite similar to storm : when it lands it's over, BUT you can 1/run out of it (storm) 2/split before it hits (fungal).
dodging storms is pretty much the highest level of play that I think exists. Look at the best terrans in the world, they know where the storms are going and don't get crushed by them like someone in diamond league would even with decent control. That is amazing.
Secondly, you can presplit against storm just as much as you can presplit against fungal. In fact, splitting is a process that always takes place if you go bio against protoss, it is just more intense during actual battles. So storm gives you two options, rather than one. If storm worked like fungal, protoss would win against terran every time.
That's why people don't get the way fungal works : they want it to have the same mechanics as storm. It's not necessary. But what you realise when you get that the mechanics can and should be different, is that maps are not really favoring pre-split for terran (toss) as chokes are almost all the time money-places of battles.
For example, protoss should favor battles at chockes in early games (sentry) but avoid them in middle (fungal) and late-game (except ultra).
If your army is slower than your opponents, you will never be able to attack across the map without getting caught out in the open somewhere. Chokes have tactical advantage without even considering infestors and now you are saying you want to take that away from the game entirely by making it suicide to clump your units? Ask a terran how to take ground against a defensive protoss and he will tell you that you cannot maneuver bio around without clumping them up and if you don't apply pressure you are inevitably going to lose.
EDIT (last one) : I hate so much people saying "infestor is broken, design is bad, it should be totally removed". Do they have a brain ? It's much more complicated than they think : "it denies micro". NO !
What i feel is that there are so much people in the community that are actually frustrated to lose at their level because they don't pre-split, or even if they do, they don't understand that infestor CAN BE properly nerf IF people accept to think seriously about it and don't go on TL after a game they lost to spread their hatred.
But BigJ is right concerning the all-broken (vs BW) statement : units are so powerful that balance is slightly harder than before. In fact, effects of a single change have much more importance when units are so powerful and the balance-margin so thin. It's a higher-energy balance involved : if you imagine the game like an equilibrium between all units, a big net of forces opposed to other forces, all of them being linked, you realise that the stronger the forces, the stronger the effects when the balance breaks.
I play protoss and I am not very good but one thing I learned long before infestors were ever even used. You should never spread your units out against zerg. I have lost hundreds of games because I was surprised mid field by lings or roaches. I have lost yet more games because I knew my stalkers would have to be sacced to kill the broodlords but I was unable to actually move them after the first blink and some of the BLs survived as a result. I have lost games where I built phoenix to combat mutas but two infestors completely destroyed all of them, which is sour considering I landed storms right on the mutas in the same game but it did nothing in comparison.
I dont care if infestors are overpowered. They are boring and promote stale gameplay where you are afraid to move around. That is what I guess most people have an issue with.
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On December 26 2012 20:30 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 19:08 Decendos wrote:On December 26 2012 18:34 Zaurus wrote:
the problem is with infested terrans. you cannot mass infestors just for fungals, they will just die. Seriously, just remove infested terrans. switch to something you can cast on friendlies. change NP into dark swarm!!!! + change fungal to a no damage slow spell. --> infestor is now a support unit: dark swarm for your ranged units and fungal + dark swarm in some way for your melee units. IT are much MUCH worse after the nerfs they got. they do literally 1-3 DPS to +3 armor units in lategame which is fine. even 8 IT from an infestor does not do much damage especially since now 2-3 eggs die. so its 5 IT from the 8 surviving which is 5-15 DPS. no problem at all. if its still too much nerf IT damage by 1 so they are literally completely useless lategame. NO NO NO ... you dont seem to understand the problem of MASS SPELLCASTERS with TOO GOOD SPELLS. Even if Infested Terrans now deal less damage their potential for killing bases remains. Just 2-3 of them can sneak into a base and easily annihilate it, so it should be removed entirely. Its the whole "burst potential" problem of WoW all over again basically. Giving one spellcaster a "no damage cloud" AND a "slow" is a terrible idea as well. Sure these clouds dont really stack en masse, but if you keep the Infested Terran in the mix you still have the burst potential. Dark Swarm was a nice spell in BW, but in SC2 - where the Siege Tank deals pitiful damage to Zerglings - it would completely destroy the game.
it seems like you dont understand how insanely bad IT are now in lategame. that was the only problem with mass infestor. you never want 30-40 infestors because of fungal. you just need 10-15 to do fungaling all over the place. IT were the main problem there because they were so strong in lategame. now IT are really bad in lategame because a significant amount of eggs die before they even hatch and the IT themselves are horribly bad vs +3 armor units in lategame.
so in HOTS you never want to go over 15 infestors even in lategame. its now always better to get other units which is exactly what needed to be done.
btw: infestors sniping bases with IT is fine and no problem at all. i never heard anybody saying "omg this is so imba". 1 turret/cannon/spore denies that with the risk of losing all infestors. if you lose your bases to that its bad play on your side, nothings imba there. 1 medivac + 8 marines kill a hatch in some seconds too if you dont react well. same thing with even much lesser ressouces needed.
so yeah:
- mass infestor is now bad in HOTS because IT suck (you now want 10-15 which is fine)
- fungal is still a bad spell because chain fungals still possible. fix that by making fungal a slow instead of root
- NP sucks. either buff or change it to another spell.
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I disagree. Fungal removes the options you have for moving your units. No matter how that happens, it is not a good functionality. Every ability that does this, including force fields and concussive shells, is a detriment to the game.
This is always the basis of all fears. Why shouldn't it exist ? They can't move, and so what ? A spell necessarily has an effect in the game, why should there be all effects possible...except this one ?
Let's see :
-we have anti-HP spells - most of them
-anti-energy spells
-anti-building spells (vigi)
-space-control spells
-damage-mitigating spells (sentry)
-healing spells
-slowing spells
They all demand talent to be perfectly, i say perfectly executed. Yeah, even GS from the sentry, thinking about it and pressing the key takes time, and also removes FF that are always nice in any fight.
Every ability that does this, including force fields and concussive shells, is a detriment to the game.
It's not the design of concussive shell, it's about the way it works : auto-cast with no click. It's not a spell, it's a (stupid) ability. But it's not the point here, concussive shell exists for a reason.
The difference is that fungal works on everything, not just non massive ground units, and it completely locks down movement as well as blink instead of just slowing or obstructing. On top of that it hits multiple targets, and does damage.
So does storm, silencing (1) and root (2) ecluded (for some spells) and doing wayyyyyy more damage. BUT, what you have to get is that (1) concerns mostly stalkers (to be honest) and is purely logical since the essence of the spell is rooting. (2) demands as much talent since pre-split has to be perfect (meaning in reality that the terran/toss must be ulra reactive on positioning and micro). So 2 is the same as for storms : it requires micro and tactical sense (being stuck in a corner is instant-death with bio vs storm.
The point is that any movement impairing effect is bad and fungal is by far the worst one we have.
Why ? It's a circle :
-why ?
-because it impairs movement.
-and ?
-well...because no other spell does that
-and ?
-movement is sooo important !
-...
Presplitting is not interesting and the worst thing you can do to pre split units is to move them, as that will break your formation. This creates a situation where you are punished for moving around which is not good. There is also several other reasons to pre split and take up defensive positions, fungals and force fields only punish mistakes in such positioning much harder than any other ability or unit.
Well as someone explained before me, basically, perfect anti-storm micro is...before storms lands ! PvT armies are going to fight each other, 2 seconds before shit gets reals, the terran pre-splits (so he has 2 sec to do it). Clumping is good in this way since you have to re-split every time you move, which is EXTREMELY demanding. If you ever played versus a terran that had a giant ball, if he does split AFTER the begining of the fight, well, he's already lost...
Pre-split can be defensive, but in this case, if the other player doesn't attack, it's a huge loss in EPM, and the better the split, the biger the losses. Because the next time the defensive player moves, he destructs his pre-split, so he gave EPM away.
But in many ZvZs, the number of ITs you can spam in a short time frame is directly influencing the power of your infestors in many engagements. In fact, your ability to siege and unsiege quickly directly influences your position in TvT as well. Speed simply lets you do the same things as everyone else, just faster.
If we consider the essence of micro, the epitome is for me marines-splitting (or baneling vs ling). In ZvZ it's not that demanding for IT. You just have to spam like a beast the same button, and we rarely see special patterns.
I agree with the last sentence.
What fungal does is remove options from the opponent. Not subtle ones, like how a 13 pool makes nexus firsts and pylon blocks less powerful. Options that involve issuing any kind of command to your units is what fungals remove. What is it that fungal adds that is so good it makes up for such a massive restriction?
Well every spell has this goal. In fact every action you do in the game does this : freedom lies in the fact you don't chose other options, or you see these options being shut down.
So you think in terms of balance : if this has X effect that reduces options (fungal, storm, etc), it must have a "positive" effect to the "fun". Yeah ! And it does ! Terran has to split (like vs toss). To be really precise, vs Toss, Terran simply has to move. Versus Z, Terran has to split against both banelings, ultra, and fungal. I've never seen anyone complain about those splits (actually, it's what i like the most). If you say it's not split, then watch an entire terran army split in two seconds before a battle versus a zerg : magnificent. You will answer me it's purely defensive pre-split. You will say that in fact, split doesn't exist for terran, since it's always pre-split. Well, if you go full bio vs a toss, you will have a bad time vs colossus/sentry/storm. In fact, if the protoss can FF you well, you die much much quicker than vs zerg.
So the essence of fungal is not avoiding it : it's doing damage/mitigating effects of it while the units are fungaled. Something really important is that units are still firing when fungaled, something people tend to forget.
Tanks might kill you if you go close, but at least you can decide if you want to stay in the killzone or retreat. On creep, infestors are faster than pretty much every protoss unit. There is never a risk that 12 siege tank might suddenly appear and land 12 sieged splash hits on your army, but if 12 infestors cruise in, that is exactly what happens. And if it happens, you are dead. Not injured, dead
Zergs dont say tanks deny micro because they don't.
In your example, you assume infestor are invisible ? If the zerg has 12 infest, terran must have quite some shit. Well actually i never saw an army being crushed by 12 infest to death without a loss (or close to).
Well, if you see the tanks before the shoot. Consider the situation : you have a flock of 12 glings, wandering on the map. You have no mapcontrol where you go. Suddenly, 3 shots of tanks insta-kill all the glings (i don't know if it's exactly this, but it's quite close). Tank denied your gling micro since you were instant-killed. You could not mitigate the effects of this instant-fungal on a small surface by any mean possible.
So, assuming both have vision :
-tanks will not kill as many lings as they should have and will probably die if not perfectly unsieged, and even so will probably die anyway.
-12 infestor vs an equivalent bio terran army, if seen and if the terran microes, will get crushed.
But i don't like make up examples (since you can take any crazy situation that does not concern what really happens in the game, like "imagine if carriers get mind control by 7 infestor, you insta-lose". Indeed bro.)
This is the opposite of how I think you should work on anything. First know the concept of the unit and the ability. If it locks things in place and that sucks no matter how long it lasts, no matter how many units it affects or whether it does damage or not, then the ability is bad. It will either be too powerful and bad, or too weak and still bad.
Then you tinker with numbers based on the performance of an otherwise satisfactory ability.
It's the opposite ! Have you ever seen a patch in WoL ? What was mostly changed : builds and metagame. Then : numbers in patches that were not to be countered by ANY BO possible. And last but not least : concepts such as...well, i don't remember concepts being excluded, except beta test (which is the purpose of the beta, introducing CONCEPTS and then switch their numbers).
Problem is that many people, when they lose a game, blame the concepts instead of :
1/blaming themselves
2/blaming the numbers
3/blaming the concept.
TL is full of people wanting a "true starcraft". Well, it's easy to sort it out :
1/people who kinda want ST BW back (or BW units that were "perfect").
2/people who want their concepts, and that tend to make their own game (exemple with ItWhoSpeaks, who makes really interesting points and posts). But well dude, someone has to chose and fix a concept, and yes, everyone will not love it, because it's a choice.
3/people who want to win more.
Well, i won't comment the "hinder movement is bad, because it's bad". I could also say "hit the HP is bad, because i like HPs". The spell has to have an effect, and who said it had to be limited to HP ? Then why not ban sentry ?
dodging storms is pretty much the highest level of play that I think exists. Look at the best terrans in the world, they know where the storms are going and don't get crushed by them like someone in diamond league would even with decent control. That is amazing.
Secondly, you can presplit against storm just as much as you can presplit against fungal. In fact, splitting is a process that always takes place if you go bio against protoss, it is just more intense during actual battles. So storm gives you two options, rather than one. If storm worked like fungal, protoss would win against terran every time.
Yeah agreed, it's high level. Indeed. But they don't always land where you think they will, i meant (with fungal, they land, it's over meaning you took the spell, often a toss has to foresee the place the terran will take, the zerg doesn't, at least not really with the actual stat of fungal)
Well spliting is as important as a toss as moving your units out. You can make a thin line of concave, to get the maximum damage inflicted/taken ratio, if you don't move your units OUT of the storm, they still die. So you will tell me you won the fight : storm demands more and is more fun to watch vs bio than fungal.
But in fact, no :
1/storm does more damage, so it's pure logic it has to force more micro (pre-split/move) to be dodged
2/storm silences the units that want to avoid it (because they move !). That's why this spell is so good. You have to inflict less damage to take less damage, brilliant !
If you look at it carefully, you have :
-storm : to take less damage, you inflict less damage // involves micro-movement and pre-split micro// high damage spell//positional use possible (if failed, storm still happens, fungal doesn't !)
-fungal : you take damage but you can inflict damage//involves pre-split micro//medium damage spell (half !)//no positional use possible.
I think the concepts are quite pretty perfect. When you do the pros/cons list, it's quite nice. If you tell me that fungal allows zerg units to connect with the other army, i will tell you that storm forces the other army to abandon a position, to force a fight, control space, etc. For example, a toss can force you to move your units towards his army if he positions the storm so well it's a bit behind the surface-center of the terran bio. He can take some time/rest by making it a little bit at the front of this center, forcing you to get in the other direction, having his warp done and maybe saving an injured colossus.
So the concept is not bad in itself.
If your army is slower than your opponents, you will never be able to attack across the map without getting caught out in the open somewhere.
Depends on the situation.
Chokes have tactical advantage without even considering infestors and now you are saying you want to take that away from the game entirely by making it suicide to clump your units? Ask a terran how to take ground against a defensive protoss and he will tell you that you cannot maneuver bio around without clumping them up and if you don't apply pressure you are inevitably going to lose.
No. I simply think that the way some maps are designed add to the infestor-whine. See cloud kingdom : it's all about chokes everywhere.
I have lost games where I built phoenix to combat mutas but two infestors completely destroyed all of them, which is sour considering I landed storms right on the mutas in the same game but it did nothing in comparison.
Sour indeed, but if i watch the replay, i'm sure i could tell you (even from my poor level) that you did things wrong, and that you could have changed the fate of the game in some way that was actually possible.
I dont care if infestors are overpowered. They are boring and promote stale gameplay where you are afraid to move around. That is what I guess most people have an issue with.
I also think they were, but not ONLY because of fungal, or more precisely, not because of fungal-mechanics.
Right now in the beta, i think they will be not used that much. They will probably re-buff something to make it viable, but not interesting/possible to mass, without touching the rooting concept.
Well, i will let you think about it, but if there was no root, terran/toss harass with medivac/warp prism would be much more abused.
They are boring and promote stale gameplay where you are afraid to move around. That is what I guess most people have an issue with.
What you are really afraid of is the fact that your level is not high enough in micro, because it's possible. To be honest, even for the pros, infestor are not all over the map on the same time. If you know where the zerg army is, most of the time you have the infestor with it. And if they are already in your base spaming IT, then you lacked a turret on 15-16 minute mark.
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On December 26 2012 13:08 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
I'm back guys, and I wanted to back up what I said with what I believe would be the easiest way to fix fungal (aside from redesigning/removing fungal from the game). This would also show why fungal is such a badly designed spell in order to fix holes that blizzard still couldn't fix in an expansion. You guys ready? Brace yourselves....
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP SOLUTION
Fungal does no damage
Simple as that. Of course, you get the dumb people coming out (I'm looking at you nomyx) and say dumb stuff like "BUT SPELL HAVE TO DO DAMAGE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM COOL AND STUFF". Okay, let me present to you with
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP COMPROMISE
Fungal does a 5 damage, not stackable (if too low, MAXIMUM 10 damage)
You want to keep the utility of fungal without completely removing fungal from the game? You want to keep zergs from massing infestor and rely solely of fungal to do all the work for them? Then just completely nerf the damage aspects of fungal. This way zergs would be forced to actually SUPPORT their infestors with an army in order to truly do damage and getting "chain fungaled" would only really be an annoyance (okay, a really dumb annoyance) but you wouldn't lose all hope as you do with the current fungal. This way, casting fungals would actually be "amazing fungals" because you used the utility of fungal to EARN yourself a superior position, compared to it's current form right now. With fungal doing little damage, you can even BUFF the other aspects of fungal (HE SAID BUFF FUNGAL! HE'S A LUNATIC!!!!!), and return fungal to it's original instant cast 9 range state. Of course, there are a few reason why blizzard doesn't take this solution, and two in particular stick out to me:
DEATHBALLS OF DEATH IN A BALL OF DEATH
It really shocks me when I read comments that does only "30 damage" which is nothing. 30 guaranteed damage is a lot, especially considering the bonus damage that fungal does to armor (I could be wrong about this but w/e). If fungal didn't do any damage, zergs could throw waves and waves and deathballs and still couldn't do any damage due to the ridiculous cost efficiency of deathballs. Usually I would agree with this.... until I started to think about the new units and spells that blizzard added to the game in HOTS. For everything blizzard does wrong, the new options they gave zerg does mitigate this somewhat. With swarm hosts and vipers, zerg can be able to defend against deathballs easier (free ranged unit and the ability to *sigh* "abduct" and lower the range of units). With these tools, zerg could methodically "break" the deathball into manageable pieces and hopefully it would solve the problem of the deathball.
Lack of reliable zerg anti-air AND air units
This is what really gets me mad. For a so called expansion to follow the quality of how Brood War "balanced" the game for Starcraft 1, apparently blizzard still can't fix the thing that has been bothering zerg since starcraft 1, mutalisks in zvz. Having mutalisk vs mutalisk battles would probably be an extremely interesting matchup with skill, speed, and a gambler's logic, all stuff that blizzard clearly doesn't want so we have to remove the option of going mutalisk in zvz. Of course, the problem goes beyond just mutalisks though in zvz. Zerg clearly has the weakest anti-air options AND the weakest air of all the races in SC2. Now before you guys whine to me about the OP broodlords, remember this, before the strength of fungal, broodlords were considered worthless. They were immobile worthless supply that just begged to be killed by anything floating that hit air. And good luck with those corruptors, floating around with their inferior mobility and their terrible range. Zerg air is weak, and it clearly needed options to make it stronger (Not buffing the mutas dammit!). This is why I feel zerg needed a new capital "ship" like the tempest, not protoss. The problems with protoss air wasn't that it was weak, but TRANSITIONING to it left you too exposed to different elements of terran and zerg. What protoss need was a way to transition, or even more utility to their air composition, not an even stronger capital ship. Zerg needs a reliable form of anti-air as well as stronger air comps, and having faster hydras isn't really enough. Maybe if they had a suicide unit that did reliable burst damage to air if it hit *cough cough* or a capital air unit that "evolved" from mutas that did a small aoe spore damage that would slow the attack speed of those air units *cough cough Cough COUGH COUGH*.
That's about it for me really. I don't think blizzard really wants to do anything good for the game, they just seem to want to appeal to the status quo. Sure they appease the masses by giving dumb, gimmicky stuff (LOOK IT'S A CLAW AND IT GRABS STUFF), but I haven't been impressed so far with how they "fixed" the game. I can ask this though, if you really want to fix fungal, NERF THE DAMAGE. All this stuff about making fungal a slow, a projectile, a root then slow, a field, a "sometimes guaranteed but not always damage and slow and root" doesn't address the fact that if you have a spell with a large amount of utility IT DOESN'T NEED TO DO LARGE AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE.
(sorry if I'm overly rude, annoying or insulting. Christmas spirit :D)
Fungal isn't stackable, you can put down 10 of them but it will only deal 30 damage (50 less than storm)
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Just joined the beta. I was super excited. Three games in, however... The opponent has yet to use a single HotS unit. And these are 2v2.
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On December 27 2012 02:56 Glorfindel21 wrote:
...
I am curious. How did you feel about the old vortex and why do you think they removed it?
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On December 27 2012 04:33 Fenris420 wrote:I am curious. How did you feel about the old vortex and why do you think they removed it?
As they said its an all or nothing spell (Which is not fun to watch) if you hit you win, if you miss you loose
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On December 27 2012 03:41 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2012 13:08 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
I'm back guys, and I wanted to back up what I said with what I believe would be the easiest way to fix fungal (aside from redesigning/removing fungal from the game). This would also show why fungal is such a badly designed spell in order to fix holes that blizzard still couldn't fix in an expansion. You guys ready? Brace yourselves....
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP SOLUTION
Fungal does no damage
Simple as that. Of course, you get the dumb people coming out (I'm looking at you nomyx) and say dumb stuff like "BUT SPELL HAVE TO DO DAMAGE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM COOL AND STUFF". Okay, let me present to you with
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP COMPROMISE
Fungal does a 5 damage, not stackable (if too low, MAXIMUM 10 damage)
You want to keep the utility of fungal without completely removing fungal from the game? You want to keep zergs from massing infestor and rely solely of fungal to do all the work for them? Then just completely nerf the damage aspects of fungal. This way zergs would be forced to actually SUPPORT their infestors with an army in order to truly do damage and getting "chain fungaled" would only really be an annoyance (okay, a really dumb annoyance) but you wouldn't lose all hope as you do with the current fungal. This way, casting fungals would actually be "amazing fungals" because you used the utility of fungal to EARN yourself a superior position, compared to it's current form right now. With fungal doing little damage, you can even BUFF the other aspects of fungal (HE SAID BUFF FUNGAL! HE'S A LUNATIC!!!!!), and return fungal to it's original instant cast 9 range state. Of course, there are a few reason why blizzard doesn't take this solution, and two in particular stick out to me:
DEATHBALLS OF DEATH IN A BALL OF DEATH
It really shocks me when I read comments that does only "30 damage" which is nothing. 30 guaranteed damage is a lot, especially considering the bonus damage that fungal does to armor (I could be wrong about this but w/e). If fungal didn't do any damage, zergs could throw waves and waves and deathballs and still couldn't do any damage due to the ridiculous cost efficiency of deathballs. Usually I would agree with this.... until I started to think about the new units and spells that blizzard added to the game in HOTS. For everything blizzard does wrong, the new options they gave zerg does mitigate this somewhat. With swarm hosts and vipers, zerg can be able to defend against deathballs easier (free ranged unit and the ability to *sigh* "abduct" and lower the range of units). With these tools, zerg could methodically "break" the deathball into manageable pieces and hopefully it would solve the problem of the deathball.
Lack of reliable zerg anti-air AND air units
This is what really gets me mad. For a so called expansion to follow the quality of how Brood War "balanced" the game for Starcraft 1, apparently blizzard still can't fix the thing that has been bothering zerg since starcraft 1, mutalisks in zvz. Having mutalisk vs mutalisk battles would probably be an extremely interesting matchup with skill, speed, and a gambler's logic, all stuff that blizzard clearly doesn't want so we have to remove the option of going mutalisk in zvz. Of course, the problem goes beyond just mutalisks though in zvz. Zerg clearly has the weakest anti-air options AND the weakest air of all the races in SC2. Now before you guys whine to me about the OP broodlords, remember this, before the strength of fungal, broodlords were considered worthless. They were immobile worthless supply that just begged to be killed by anything floating that hit air. And good luck with those corruptors, floating around with their inferior mobility and their terrible range. Zerg air is weak, and it clearly needed options to make it stronger (Not buffing the mutas dammit!). This is why I feel zerg needed a new capital "ship" like the tempest, not protoss. The problems with protoss air wasn't that it was weak, but TRANSITIONING to it left you too exposed to different elements of terran and zerg. What protoss need was a way to transition, or even more utility to their air composition, not an even stronger capital ship. Zerg needs a reliable form of anti-air as well as stronger air comps, and having faster hydras isn't really enough. Maybe if they had a suicide unit that did reliable burst damage to air if it hit *cough cough* or a capital air unit that "evolved" from mutas that did a small aoe spore damage that would slow the attack speed of those air units *cough cough Cough COUGH COUGH*.
That's about it for me really. I don't think blizzard really wants to do anything good for the game, they just seem to want to appeal to the status quo. Sure they appease the masses by giving dumb, gimmicky stuff (LOOK IT'S A CLAW AND IT GRABS STUFF), but I haven't been impressed so far with how they "fixed" the game. I can ask this though, if you really want to fix fungal, NERF THE DAMAGE. All this stuff about making fungal a slow, a projectile, a root then slow, a field, a "sometimes guaranteed but not always damage and slow and root" doesn't address the fact that if you have a spell with a large amount of utility IT DOESN'T NEED TO DO LARGE AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE.
(sorry if I'm overly rude, annoying or insulting. Christmas spirit :D) Fungal isn't stackable, you can put down 10 of them but it will only deal 30 damage (50 less than storm)
That's a little misleading. Any competent pro gamer will not take 80 damage from a storm. So I would say that fungal deals the same damage as storm on average, except fungal can be chained making it more powerful. I think people are mixing up terminology, fungal can be chained which is the huge issue. Well, I'd say that fungal being able to be chained isn't a problem if infestors are not massable. The main issue is that having an army of 30 infestors is an ultimate army composition which causes the problem (primarily because ITs are so powerful, not because fungal is chain-able).
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On December 27 2012 04:54 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 03:41 nomyx wrote:On December 26 2012 13:08 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
I'm back guys, and I wanted to back up what I said with what I believe would be the easiest way to fix fungal (aside from redesigning/removing fungal from the game). This would also show why fungal is such a badly designed spell in order to fix holes that blizzard still couldn't fix in an expansion. You guys ready? Brace yourselves....
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP SOLUTION
Fungal does no damage
Simple as that. Of course, you get the dumb people coming out (I'm looking at you nomyx) and say dumb stuff like "BUT SPELL HAVE TO DO DAMAGE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM COOL AND STUFF". Okay, let me present to you with
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP COMPROMISE
Fungal does a 5 damage, not stackable (if too low, MAXIMUM 10 damage)
You want to keep the utility of fungal without completely removing fungal from the game? You want to keep zergs from massing infestor and rely solely of fungal to do all the work for them? Then just completely nerf the damage aspects of fungal. This way zergs would be forced to actually SUPPORT their infestors with an army in order to truly do damage and getting "chain fungaled" would only really be an annoyance (okay, a really dumb annoyance) but you wouldn't lose all hope as you do with the current fungal. This way, casting fungals would actually be "amazing fungals" because you used the utility of fungal to EARN yourself a superior position, compared to it's current form right now. With fungal doing little damage, you can even BUFF the other aspects of fungal (HE SAID BUFF FUNGAL! HE'S A LUNATIC!!!!!), and return fungal to it's original instant cast 9 range state. Of course, there are a few reason why blizzard doesn't take this solution, and two in particular stick out to me:
DEATHBALLS OF DEATH IN A BALL OF DEATH
It really shocks me when I read comments that does only "30 damage" which is nothing. 30 guaranteed damage is a lot, especially considering the bonus damage that fungal does to armor (I could be wrong about this but w/e). If fungal didn't do any damage, zergs could throw waves and waves and deathballs and still couldn't do any damage due to the ridiculous cost efficiency of deathballs. Usually I would agree with this.... until I started to think about the new units and spells that blizzard added to the game in HOTS. For everything blizzard does wrong, the new options they gave zerg does mitigate this somewhat. With swarm hosts and vipers, zerg can be able to defend against deathballs easier (free ranged unit and the ability to *sigh* "abduct" and lower the range of units). With these tools, zerg could methodically "break" the deathball into manageable pieces and hopefully it would solve the problem of the deathball.
Lack of reliable zerg anti-air AND air units
This is what really gets me mad. For a so called expansion to follow the quality of how Brood War "balanced" the game for Starcraft 1, apparently blizzard still can't fix the thing that has been bothering zerg since starcraft 1, mutalisks in zvz. Having mutalisk vs mutalisk battles would probably be an extremely interesting matchup with skill, speed, and a gambler's logic, all stuff that blizzard clearly doesn't want so we have to remove the option of going mutalisk in zvz. Of course, the problem goes beyond just mutalisks though in zvz. Zerg clearly has the weakest anti-air options AND the weakest air of all the races in SC2. Now before you guys whine to me about the OP broodlords, remember this, before the strength of fungal, broodlords were considered worthless. They were immobile worthless supply that just begged to be killed by anything floating that hit air. And good luck with those corruptors, floating around with their inferior mobility and their terrible range. Zerg air is weak, and it clearly needed options to make it stronger (Not buffing the mutas dammit!). This is why I feel zerg needed a new capital "ship" like the tempest, not protoss. The problems with protoss air wasn't that it was weak, but TRANSITIONING to it left you too exposed to different elements of terran and zerg. What protoss need was a way to transition, or even more utility to their air composition, not an even stronger capital ship. Zerg needs a reliable form of anti-air as well as stronger air comps, and having faster hydras isn't really enough. Maybe if they had a suicide unit that did reliable burst damage to air if it hit *cough cough* or a capital air unit that "evolved" from mutas that did a small aoe spore damage that would slow the attack speed of those air units *cough cough Cough COUGH COUGH*.
That's about it for me really. I don't think blizzard really wants to do anything good for the game, they just seem to want to appeal to the status quo. Sure they appease the masses by giving dumb, gimmicky stuff (LOOK IT'S A CLAW AND IT GRABS STUFF), but I haven't been impressed so far with how they "fixed" the game. I can ask this though, if you really want to fix fungal, NERF THE DAMAGE. All this stuff about making fungal a slow, a projectile, a root then slow, a field, a "sometimes guaranteed but not always damage and slow and root" doesn't address the fact that if you have a spell with a large amount of utility IT DOESN'T NEED TO DO LARGE AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE.
(sorry if I'm overly rude, annoying or insulting. Christmas spirit :D) Fungal isn't stackable, you can put down 10 of them but it will only deal 30 damage (50 less than storm) That's a little misleading. Any competent pro gamer will not take 80 damage from a storm. So I would say that fungal deals the same damage as storm on average, except fungal can be chained making it more powerful. I think people are mixing up terminology, fungal can be chained which is the huge issue. Well, I'd say that fungal being able to be chained isn't a problem if infestors are not massable. The main issue is that having an army of 30 infestors is an ultimate army composition which causes the problem (primarily because ITs are so powerful, not because fungal is chain-able).
agree with all you say except IT being powerful and you want 30 infestor. it seems like many people mix up the WoL infestor and the HOTS infestor. right now they are 2 completely different units. you dont want 30 infestors in HOTS because IT dont get upgrades which means they do 1-3 DPS in lategame to +3 armor units (instead of 4-6 DPS each in WoL). so 1 infestor in HOTS does 8-24 DPS = 4-12 DPS per supply. thats very few DPS. WoL infestor does 32-48 DPS = 16-24 DPS per supply. thats a VERY huge difference some people dont seem to realize. in HOTS you actually can overbuild infestors and its bad (which is awesome).
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On December 27 2012 05:51 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 04:54 convention wrote:On December 27 2012 03:41 nomyx wrote:On December 26 2012 13:08 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
I'm back guys, and I wanted to back up what I said with what I believe would be the easiest way to fix fungal (aside from redesigning/removing fungal from the game). This would also show why fungal is such a badly designed spell in order to fix holes that blizzard still couldn't fix in an expansion. You guys ready? Brace yourselves....
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP SOLUTION
Fungal does no damage
Simple as that. Of course, you get the dumb people coming out (I'm looking at you nomyx) and say dumb stuff like "BUT SPELL HAVE TO DO DAMAGE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM COOL AND STUFF". Okay, let me present to you with
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP COMPROMISE
Fungal does a 5 damage, not stackable (if too low, MAXIMUM 10 damage)
You want to keep the utility of fungal without completely removing fungal from the game? You want to keep zergs from massing infestor and rely solely of fungal to do all the work for them? Then just completely nerf the damage aspects of fungal. This way zergs would be forced to actually SUPPORT their infestors with an army in order to truly do damage and getting "chain fungaled" would only really be an annoyance (okay, a really dumb annoyance) but you wouldn't lose all hope as you do with the current fungal. This way, casting fungals would actually be "amazing fungals" because you used the utility of fungal to EARN yourself a superior position, compared to it's current form right now. With fungal doing little damage, you can even BUFF the other aspects of fungal (HE SAID BUFF FUNGAL! HE'S A LUNATIC!!!!!), and return fungal to it's original instant cast 9 range state. Of course, there are a few reason why blizzard doesn't take this solution, and two in particular stick out to me:
DEATHBALLS OF DEATH IN A BALL OF DEATH
It really shocks me when I read comments that does only "30 damage" which is nothing. 30 guaranteed damage is a lot, especially considering the bonus damage that fungal does to armor (I could be wrong about this but w/e). If fungal didn't do any damage, zergs could throw waves and waves and deathballs and still couldn't do any damage due to the ridiculous cost efficiency of deathballs. Usually I would agree with this.... until I started to think about the new units and spells that blizzard added to the game in HOTS. For everything blizzard does wrong, the new options they gave zerg does mitigate this somewhat. With swarm hosts and vipers, zerg can be able to defend against deathballs easier (free ranged unit and the ability to *sigh* "abduct" and lower the range of units). With these tools, zerg could methodically "break" the deathball into manageable pieces and hopefully it would solve the problem of the deathball.
Lack of reliable zerg anti-air AND air units
This is what really gets me mad. For a so called expansion to follow the quality of how Brood War "balanced" the game for Starcraft 1, apparently blizzard still can't fix the thing that has been bothering zerg since starcraft 1, mutalisks in zvz. Having mutalisk vs mutalisk battles would probably be an extremely interesting matchup with skill, speed, and a gambler's logic, all stuff that blizzard clearly doesn't want so we have to remove the option of going mutalisk in zvz. Of course, the problem goes beyond just mutalisks though in zvz. Zerg clearly has the weakest anti-air options AND the weakest air of all the races in SC2. Now before you guys whine to me about the OP broodlords, remember this, before the strength of fungal, broodlords were considered worthless. They were immobile worthless supply that just begged to be killed by anything floating that hit air. And good luck with those corruptors, floating around with their inferior mobility and their terrible range. Zerg air is weak, and it clearly needed options to make it stronger (Not buffing the mutas dammit!). This is why I feel zerg needed a new capital "ship" like the tempest, not protoss. The problems with protoss air wasn't that it was weak, but TRANSITIONING to it left you too exposed to different elements of terran and zerg. What protoss need was a way to transition, or even more utility to their air composition, not an even stronger capital ship. Zerg needs a reliable form of anti-air as well as stronger air comps, and having faster hydras isn't really enough. Maybe if they had a suicide unit that did reliable burst damage to air if it hit *cough cough* or a capital air unit that "evolved" from mutas that did a small aoe spore damage that would slow the attack speed of those air units *cough cough Cough COUGH COUGH*.
That's about it for me really. I don't think blizzard really wants to do anything good for the game, they just seem to want to appeal to the status quo. Sure they appease the masses by giving dumb, gimmicky stuff (LOOK IT'S A CLAW AND IT GRABS STUFF), but I haven't been impressed so far with how they "fixed" the game. I can ask this though, if you really want to fix fungal, NERF THE DAMAGE. All this stuff about making fungal a slow, a projectile, a root then slow, a field, a "sometimes guaranteed but not always damage and slow and root" doesn't address the fact that if you have a spell with a large amount of utility IT DOESN'T NEED TO DO LARGE AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE.
(sorry if I'm overly rude, annoying or insulting. Christmas spirit :D) Fungal isn't stackable, you can put down 10 of them but it will only deal 30 damage (50 less than storm) That's a little misleading. Any competent pro gamer will not take 80 damage from a storm. So I would say that fungal deals the same damage as storm on average, except fungal can be chained making it more powerful. I think people are mixing up terminology, fungal can be chained which is the huge issue. Well, I'd say that fungal being able to be chained isn't a problem if infestors are not massable. The main issue is that having an army of 30 infestors is an ultimate army composition which causes the problem (primarily because ITs are so powerful, not because fungal is chain-able). agree with all you say except IT being powerful and you want 30 infestor. it seems like many people mix up the WoL infestor and the HOTS infestor. right now they are 2 completely different units. you dont want 30 infestors in HOTS because IT dont get upgrades which means they do 1-3 DPS in lategame to +3 armor units (instead of 4-6 DPS each in WoL). so 1 infestor in HOTS does 8-24 DPS = 4-12 DPS per supply. thats very few DPS. WoL infestor does 32-48 DPS = 16-24 DPS per supply. thats a VERY huge difference some people dont seem to realize. in HOTS you actually can overbuild infestors and its bad (which is awesome).
You make a good point. There haven't been many pro games to see the effect of the IT nerf on infestors. Down in the lowly plat league, people's infestor control is so unbelievably terrible I've never really had issues with mass infestors (so I haven't seen the effects of the IT nerf yet).
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On December 27 2012 04:54 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 03:41 nomyx wrote:On December 26 2012 13:08 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
I'm back guys, and I wanted to back up what I said with what I believe would be the easiest way to fix fungal (aside from redesigning/removing fungal from the game). This would also show why fungal is such a badly designed spell in order to fix holes that blizzard still couldn't fix in an expansion. You guys ready? Brace yourselves....
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP SOLUTION
Fungal does no damage
Simple as that. Of course, you get the dumb people coming out (I'm looking at you nomyx) and say dumb stuff like "BUT SPELL HAVE TO DO DAMAGE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM COOL AND STUFF". Okay, let me present to you with
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP COMPROMISE
Fungal does a 5 damage, not stackable (if too low, MAXIMUM 10 damage)
You want to keep the utility of fungal without completely removing fungal from the game? You want to keep zergs from massing infestor and rely solely of fungal to do all the work for them? Then just completely nerf the damage aspects of fungal. This way zergs would be forced to actually SUPPORT their infestors with an army in order to truly do damage and getting "chain fungaled" would only really be an annoyance (okay, a really dumb annoyance) but you wouldn't lose all hope as you do with the current fungal. This way, casting fungals would actually be "amazing fungals" because you used the utility of fungal to EARN yourself a superior position, compared to it's current form right now. With fungal doing little damage, you can even BUFF the other aspects of fungal (HE SAID BUFF FUNGAL! HE'S A LUNATIC!!!!!), and return fungal to it's original instant cast 9 range state. Of course, there are a few reason why blizzard doesn't take this solution, and two in particular stick out to me:
DEATHBALLS OF DEATH IN A BALL OF DEATH
It really shocks me when I read comments that does only "30 damage" which is nothing. 30 guaranteed damage is a lot, especially considering the bonus damage that fungal does to armor (I could be wrong about this but w/e). If fungal didn't do any damage, zergs could throw waves and waves and deathballs and still couldn't do any damage due to the ridiculous cost efficiency of deathballs. Usually I would agree with this.... until I started to think about the new units and spells that blizzard added to the game in HOTS. For everything blizzard does wrong, the new options they gave zerg does mitigate this somewhat. With swarm hosts and vipers, zerg can be able to defend against deathballs easier (free ranged unit and the ability to *sigh* "abduct" and lower the range of units). With these tools, zerg could methodically "break" the deathball into manageable pieces and hopefully it would solve the problem of the deathball.
Lack of reliable zerg anti-air AND air units
This is what really gets me mad. For a so called expansion to follow the quality of how Brood War "balanced" the game for Starcraft 1, apparently blizzard still can't fix the thing that has been bothering zerg since starcraft 1, mutalisks in zvz. Having mutalisk vs mutalisk battles would probably be an extremely interesting matchup with skill, speed, and a gambler's logic, all stuff that blizzard clearly doesn't want so we have to remove the option of going mutalisk in zvz. Of course, the problem goes beyond just mutalisks though in zvz. Zerg clearly has the weakest anti-air options AND the weakest air of all the races in SC2. Now before you guys whine to me about the OP broodlords, remember this, before the strength of fungal, broodlords were considered worthless. They were immobile worthless supply that just begged to be killed by anything floating that hit air. And good luck with those corruptors, floating around with their inferior mobility and their terrible range. Zerg air is weak, and it clearly needed options to make it stronger (Not buffing the mutas dammit!). This is why I feel zerg needed a new capital "ship" like the tempest, not protoss. The problems with protoss air wasn't that it was weak, but TRANSITIONING to it left you too exposed to different elements of terran and zerg. What protoss need was a way to transition, or even more utility to their air composition, not an even stronger capital ship. Zerg needs a reliable form of anti-air as well as stronger air comps, and having faster hydras isn't really enough. Maybe if they had a suicide unit that did reliable burst damage to air if it hit *cough cough* or a capital air unit that "evolved" from mutas that did a small aoe spore damage that would slow the attack speed of those air units *cough cough Cough COUGH COUGH*.
That's about it for me really. I don't think blizzard really wants to do anything good for the game, they just seem to want to appeal to the status quo. Sure they appease the masses by giving dumb, gimmicky stuff (LOOK IT'S A CLAW AND IT GRABS STUFF), but I haven't been impressed so far with how they "fixed" the game. I can ask this though, if you really want to fix fungal, NERF THE DAMAGE. All this stuff about making fungal a slow, a projectile, a root then slow, a field, a "sometimes guaranteed but not always damage and slow and root" doesn't address the fact that if you have a spell with a large amount of utility IT DOESN'T NEED TO DO LARGE AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE.
(sorry if I'm overly rude, annoying or insulting. Christmas spirit :D) Fungal isn't stackable, you can put down 10 of them but it will only deal 30 damage (50 less than storm) That's a little misleading. Any competent pro gamer will not take 80 damage from a storm. So I would say that fungal deals the same damage as storm on average, except fungal can be chained making it more powerful. I think people are mixing up terminology, fungal can be chained which is the huge issue. Well, I'd say that fungal being able to be chained isn't a problem if infestors are not massable. The main issue is that having an army of 30 infestors is an ultimate army composition which causes the problem (primarily because ITs are so powerful, not because fungal is chain-able).
Exactly, this is what separates a good pro from a bad one. A bad pro will refuse to pre-split his marines, a good pro will split his marines vs banelings and infestors.
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On December 27 2012 06:07 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2012 04:54 convention wrote:On December 27 2012 03:41 nomyx wrote:On December 26 2012 13:08 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:
I'm back guys, and I wanted to back up what I said with what I believe would be the easiest way to fix fungal (aside from redesigning/removing fungal from the game). This would also show why fungal is such a badly designed spell in order to fix holes that blizzard still couldn't fix in an expansion. You guys ready? Brace yourselves....
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP SOLUTION
Fungal does no damage
Simple as that. Of course, you get the dumb people coming out (I'm looking at you nomyx) and say dumb stuff like "BUT SPELL HAVE TO DO DAMAGE BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM COOL AND STUFF". Okay, let me present to you with
THE KAMIKAZE DURRRP COMPROMISE
Fungal does a 5 damage, not stackable (if too low, MAXIMUM 10 damage)
You want to keep the utility of fungal without completely removing fungal from the game? You want to keep zergs from massing infestor and rely solely of fungal to do all the work for them? Then just completely nerf the damage aspects of fungal. This way zergs would be forced to actually SUPPORT their infestors with an army in order to truly do damage and getting "chain fungaled" would only really be an annoyance (okay, a really dumb annoyance) but you wouldn't lose all hope as you do with the current fungal. This way, casting fungals would actually be "amazing fungals" because you used the utility of fungal to EARN yourself a superior position, compared to it's current form right now. With fungal doing little damage, you can even BUFF the other aspects of fungal (HE SAID BUFF FUNGAL! HE'S A LUNATIC!!!!!), and return fungal to it's original instant cast 9 range state. Of course, there are a few reason why blizzard doesn't take this solution, and two in particular stick out to me:
DEATHBALLS OF DEATH IN A BALL OF DEATH
It really shocks me when I read comments that does only "30 damage" which is nothing. 30 guaranteed damage is a lot, especially considering the bonus damage that fungal does to armor (I could be wrong about this but w/e). If fungal didn't do any damage, zergs could throw waves and waves and deathballs and still couldn't do any damage due to the ridiculous cost efficiency of deathballs. Usually I would agree with this.... until I started to think about the new units and spells that blizzard added to the game in HOTS. For everything blizzard does wrong, the new options they gave zerg does mitigate this somewhat. With swarm hosts and vipers, zerg can be able to defend against deathballs easier (free ranged unit and the ability to *sigh* "abduct" and lower the range of units). With these tools, zerg could methodically "break" the deathball into manageable pieces and hopefully it would solve the problem of the deathball.
Lack of reliable zerg anti-air AND air units
This is what really gets me mad. For a so called expansion to follow the quality of how Brood War "balanced" the game for Starcraft 1, apparently blizzard still can't fix the thing that has been bothering zerg since starcraft 1, mutalisks in zvz. Having mutalisk vs mutalisk battles would probably be an extremely interesting matchup with skill, speed, and a gambler's logic, all stuff that blizzard clearly doesn't want so we have to remove the option of going mutalisk in zvz. Of course, the problem goes beyond just mutalisks though in zvz. Zerg clearly has the weakest anti-air options AND the weakest air of all the races in SC2. Now before you guys whine to me about the OP broodlords, remember this, before the strength of fungal, broodlords were considered worthless. They were immobile worthless supply that just begged to be killed by anything floating that hit air. And good luck with those corruptors, floating around with their inferior mobility and their terrible range. Zerg air is weak, and it clearly needed options to make it stronger (Not buffing the mutas dammit!). This is why I feel zerg needed a new capital "ship" like the tempest, not protoss. The problems with protoss air wasn't that it was weak, but TRANSITIONING to it left you too exposed to different elements of terran and zerg. What protoss need was a way to transition, or even more utility to their air composition, not an even stronger capital ship. Zerg needs a reliable form of anti-air as well as stronger air comps, and having faster hydras isn't really enough. Maybe if they had a suicide unit that did reliable burst damage to air if it hit *cough cough* or a capital air unit that "evolved" from mutas that did a small aoe spore damage that would slow the attack speed of those air units *cough cough Cough COUGH COUGH*.
That's about it for me really. I don't think blizzard really wants to do anything good for the game, they just seem to want to appeal to the status quo. Sure they appease the masses by giving dumb, gimmicky stuff (LOOK IT'S A CLAW AND IT GRABS STUFF), but I haven't been impressed so far with how they "fixed" the game. I can ask this though, if you really want to fix fungal, NERF THE DAMAGE. All this stuff about making fungal a slow, a projectile, a root then slow, a field, a "sometimes guaranteed but not always damage and slow and root" doesn't address the fact that if you have a spell with a large amount of utility IT DOESN'T NEED TO DO LARGE AMOUNTS OF DAMAGE.
(sorry if I'm overly rude, annoying or insulting. Christmas spirit :D) Fungal isn't stackable, you can put down 10 of them but it will only deal 30 damage (50 less than storm) That's a little misleading. Any competent pro gamer will not take 80 damage from a storm. So I would say that fungal deals the same damage as storm on average, except fungal can be chained making it more powerful. I think people are mixing up terminology, fungal can be chained which is the huge issue. Well, I'd say that fungal being able to be chained isn't a problem if infestors are not massable. The main issue is that having an army of 30 infestors is an ultimate army composition which causes the problem (primarily because ITs are so powerful, not because fungal is chain-able). Exactly, this is what separates a good pro from a bad one. A bad pro will refuse to pre-split his marines, a good pro will split his marines vs banelings and infestors.
I am all for people being forced to split up their units, but the problem with fungle is that any units caught by the first fungle can and will likely die. The zerg has the ability to endlessly layer on fungle so the root never ends and there is nothing the opponent can do about it. Any unit, no matter what the cost, can be endlessly rooted and will be unable to retreat.
This wouldn’t be bad if infestors functioned like HTs or Ghosts, who typically die after casting their one spell. But in the current meta game, infestors are able to lock down the opposing army and survive almost any engagement when Broodlords are involved.
Fungle has a place in the game, but not with a full 4 second root that be reapplied before it expires. If the ability had a 1 second root and did the exact same damage, it would likely be better for everyone.
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^ I wonder. Blizzard completely removed the Warhound and thus following the same logic, if we also get rid of the infester altogether - in favour of another unit - will a better game design emerge?
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EPT
