EPTBeta Balance Update #10 - Page 35
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xxjcdentonxx
Canada163 Posts
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
On December 19 2012 12:46 nomyx wrote: 83 days left until HOTS is released. My wishlist (please read santa) 1. Widow mine no longer hits air, but is much stronger vs ground 2. Infestor nerfs, they should be a support unit like a spellcaster should be. My favorite change would be to make fungal a 50%~ slow and a slight damage buff, but it only brings targets to 1 hp (like plague). This would promote infestors as a support unit to the zerg army, not the whole zerg army 3. Hydra / Swarm host buffs. Reverting WoL beta nerfs to the hydra would be nice 4. Tank buff. Way too many counters to the tank. 2 supply / 100 gas or 50 damage default. 5. Bunker build time decreased. Pretty sure widow mines can't be stronger vs ground. They are already ridiculously good against ground. I think the design of the infestor needs to be fixed. If you recall back to BW, the defiler was fucking ridiculously OP, but it fit within the game design. It was really strong defensively, so if someone had a defiler near a choke, you had the option of simply not going up that choke. I wouldn't mind the infestor being a super strong OP spell caster if it was only defensive, and its offensive capability wasn't so good. It gives options to the opponent. Right now, the infestor is either terrible at everything, or amazing at everything. I say buff it even more, but give it some form of exploitable vulnerability like slow speed or lower HP or inability to move while burrowed. Right now it is a swiss army knife that can shoot bullets. No matter how you change it, it will either be super good or super terrible. The second zergs see it as a weaker alternative to other units, they will just build the other units. But if you give it a specific role in the game, it will be much easier to balance. Put your foot down blizzard, and say this unit is defensive. Make fungal stronger however way you want, and make it slower. That way, you can make 20 infestors and survive for ever, but you will lose offensive capability and it will end up being dead weight in the end game. So you will want many 4-5 a game to control some strategic points of the game. This way, it won't be ridiculous where building more is always better. Also, if people wanted to get offensive with them, maybe start doing some form of overload carry and stuff, kind of like how we see HerO use warpprism and HTs. At least there will be some strategy involved. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:08 mprs wrote: Pretty sure widow mines can't be stronger vs ground. They are already ridiculously good against ground. I think the design of the infestor needs to be fixed. If you recall back to BW, the defiler was fucking ridiculously OP, but it fit within the game design. It was really strong defensively, so if someone had a defiler near a choke, you had the option of simply not going up that choke. I wouldn't mind the infestor being a super strong OP spell caster if it was only defensive, and its offensive capability wasn't so good. It gives options to the opponent. Right now, the infestor is either terrible at everything, or amazing at everything. I say buff it even more, but give it some form of exploitable vulnerability like slow speed or lower HP or inability to move while burrowed. Right now it is a swiss army knife that can shoot bullets. No matter how you change it, it will either be super good or super terrible. The second zergs see it as a weaker alternative to other units, they will just build the other units. But if you give it a specific role in the game, it will be much easier to balance. Put your foot down blizzard, and say this unit is defensive. Make fungal stronger however way you want, and make it slower. That way, you can make 20 infestors and survive for ever, but you will lose offensive capability and it will end up being dead weight in the end game. So you will want many 4-5 a game to control some strategic points of the game. This way, it won't be ridiculous where building more is always better. Also, if people wanted to get offensive with them, maybe start doing some form of overload carry and stuff, kind of like how we see HerO use warpprism and HTs. At least there will be some strategy involved. Widow Mines are great if you like losing past 10 minutes. | ||
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bittman
Australia8759 Posts
Then again I guess people feel that Blizzard has personally screwed them over before. I'm not concerned at all. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 19 2012 12:44 Velinath wrote: Can we maybe look at fundamentally changing the way Fungal works? Obviously from the insane amount of balancing that Blizzard is trying to do, the basic concept of the spell simply isn't working. On a more constructive note, I think that the Widow Mine change is a step in the right direction. I still feel like splash of 40 is pretty insane, but that may be because I'm used to watching people skimp on detection in WoL. I'm not sure if it's still one-shotting Overseers, but I would say that that's my major concern - bring an overseer to scout, mismicro once and your push is over - that would suck. That said, I think the BEST possible solution is to just remove Widow Mine targeting air units. Also, and this probably echoes others' sentiments, but I miss the tank. Can we have some buffs to that? Widow Mines never 1 shotted Overseers, in any HotS version, ever. I see a lot of people, most seem to be Zergs, saying Mines shouldn't hit air units. Maybe they are right, the biggest argument seems to be Mutalisks. Using an overseer to spot for mines slows down your muta harass, and you are still vulnerable to mines in unexpected locations. I just want people to think about what a Widow Mine is if all it does is hit ground units, after being burrowed. No cloaked units even anymore. Just single target damage and then ~33% damage to units surrounding. What we have is a unit that is almost identical to the Siege Tank in function at that point, but with less range and cloaked when "sieged". So yeah, there are still a few uses with Widow Mines if they don't hit air. Putting them in chokes, putting them in 4th/5th/6th bases, using them before detection is out for defense (only really possible vs Zerg...). But once the races have detection, if Widow Mines don't hit air, what is the point of having Widow Mines out on the map? All it takes is the races flying Detection to just be sweeping the map and clearing these units out. It's not like the races don't already have map control against Mech to do this. If getting rid of Widow Mine's anti-air is really the solution, just scrap the unit. What a 1 dimensional unit it would be if it only hit ground. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Infestor being buffed a little again is good as it was overnerfed before.. 10 range puzzles me though but is probably fine. Blink change is crap though, it's not a good solution for the underlying problem: the msc. Blink play was dominating pvp and pvt too much but first of all this change doesn't do that much and blink is needlessly nerfed elsewhere now. Widow mine change is awful too, the unit is moved way too much towards a AoE unit with low main damage but it should be the other way around!! Widow mine is now completely useless against protoss if it wasn't already since it doesn't even kill units in one go anymore... Really curious what the reasoning for this change was, widow mine too strong again zerg or too much of a deterrant for air play?? Widow mine with these stats is still stupid against zerg that it invalidates early pressure and muta play but is now pretty much total crap in TvP and soso in TvT. They need to completely rethink this unit and make it good against single units with low or no aoe and not let it hit air units.. Terran doesn't need the widow mine as it stands as they already have great board control against lings... They need board control agianst blink stalkers and fast units to make their mech work... These new stats make it one of the worst designs ever, it only ruins the fun of earlygame TvZ and does NOTHING positive for the gameplay of the game anymore.. Also medivac buff to fusion core is really random... I know bio needs a lategame buff that isn't available to early but this is some seriously ugly design to do that.. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:13 ZjiublingZ wrote: Widow Mines never 1 shotted Overseers, in any HotS version, ever. I see a lot of people, most seem to be Zergs, saying Mines shouldn't hit air units. Maybe they are right, the biggest argument seems to be Mutalisks. Using an overseer to spot for mines slows down your muta harass, and you are still vulnerable to mines in unexpected locations. I just want people to think about what a Widow Mine is if all it does is hit ground units, after being burrowed. No cloaked units even anymore. Just single target damage and then ~33% damage to units surrounding. What we have is a unit that is almost identical to the Siege Tank in function at that point, but with less range and cloaked when "sieged". So yeah, there are still a few uses with Widow Mines if they don't hit air. Putting them in chokes, putting them in 4th/5th/6th bases, using them before detection is out for defense (only really possible vs Zerg...). But once the races have detection, if Widow Mines don't hit air, what is the point of having Widow Mines out on the map? All it takes is the races flying Detection to just be sweeping the map and clearing these units out. It's not like the races don't already have map control against Mech to do this. If getting rid of Widow Mine's anti-air is really the solution, just scrap the unit. What a 1 dimensional unit it would be if it only hit ground. Honestly i thought it was fine. I saw Catz play against dragon and with good micro you can pull it off muta lisk vs mines. It increase the skill cap of the game and make zerg micro more. Honestly, zerg doesnt really have a lot of micro and I though this would create a new and richer element in the game but I guess blizzard see elsewise. | ||
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:09 DemigodcelpH wrote: Widow Mines are great if you like losing past 10 minutes. Never said they were good to make. They are good against ground, as in they do a shit ton of damage vs. ground. As in, if you were to give them more damage, they could potentially break the game. They are bad in different ways, but not in their damage. Also, they aren't supposed to replace the marine or something. But 2-3, defensively can be extremely cost effective... | ||
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Havik_
United States5585 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
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Wen_Jie
Australia38 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:01 Harbinger631 wrote: Infestor changes are good. Fast projectile, still dodgeable, weaker infested Terran. You can't dodge the projectile considering how fast it is. If your units are already on the move, it's possible for the fungal to miss, but that's because the zerg is bad at aiming and not because you saw the projectile and deliberately moved out of the radius in the half a second it takes to hit. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On December 19 2012 06:43 SheaR619 wrote: Not necessarily, it is invisble. I would think that it would still have a role since it cheap and decent map control. And finally, Good BYE mech TvP. Clearly they dont wana fix it lol. Yes, it still has a role but it has been heavily nerfed, previously four well placed WM could crush a small roach/ling force, 640 dmg + 160 splash dmg. Now, it's 500 + 160 dmg, a huge 28% drop in damage. Technically both sieged tank fire and tempests attacks are invisible as most units do not have sight of 15 range. On December 19 2012 06:46 SheaR619 wrote: Wait so mine dont even 1 shot protoss units and roaches now? Wow their pretty useless now lol except in a few situation but largely useless. No, they "fixed" it so you'll need at LEAST two widow mines to "one-shot" them, 125 + 40 splash, previously 160+40. I like the name change from unstable payload to sentinel missile? | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:47 Wen_Jie wrote: You can't dodge the projectile considering how fast it is. If your units are already on the move, it's possible for the fungal to miss, but that's because the zerg is bad at aiming and not because you saw the projectile and deliberately moved out of the radius in the half a second it takes to hit. Bingo. A lot of the complaints over FG were about how it only took one player's skill into account (Z), and although the nerfs seem to have mollified most people, that actually hasn't changed. The spell still only takes the Z's skill into account. There's just a higher margin of error, and a lot more luck in the equation. | ||
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Aserrin
Uruguay231 Posts
I'm a firm believer that the best balance is achieved by raising the skillcap and rewarding the most skillful and original players. Not the ones who just f and click or a and move, disregarding anything their opponent could possibly do against it. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:58 pure.Wasted wrote: Bingo. A lot of the complaints over FG were about how it only took one player's skill into account (Z), and although the nerfs seem to have mollified most people, that actually hasn't changed. The spell still only takes the Z's skill into account. There's just a higher margin of error, and a lot more luck in the equation. We all know they are going to nerf the speed of the missile. They are just testing different ranges. The last one was to short and slow. This one is likely to long and quick. I bet the third time they get it about right and it goes a reasonable speed and likely has around 8-9 range. You don't known until you unleash the changes to the masses of the community. | ||
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IronsideSC2
1 Post
On December 19 2012 06:18 Archas wrote: Were Infestors really so neutered by the previous Fungal Growth change that Blizzard needed to boost the range and missile speed this much? Serious question, by the way. Not really. Zergs stopped making infestors just like they did last time infestors got nerfed. What happened last time they got nerfed? Zergs stopped making them for 3-6 month or so and then remebered they still got an i win button. Zergs just whinged cuz they cudnt hit nething with a projectile. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On December 19 2012 14:04 Plansix wrote: We all know they are going to nerf the speed of the missile. They are just testing different ranges. The last one was to short and slow. This one is likely to long and quick. I bet the third time they get it about right and it goes a reasonable speed and likely has around 8-9 range. You don't known until you unleash the changes to the masses of the community. Eh, the speed is probably fine. Spellcasting is supposed to take only spellcasting's side skill into account. I think it would be kind of weird that someone could literally dodge 100% of the damage from a good fungal. Otherwise the unit is just totally unreliable. Range 10 seems pretty silly though, and honestly kind of random to me. I'm not really sure why they did that. With the faster projectile speed, range 8 isn't all that bad... | ||
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Killcycle
United States170 Posts
I mention the other spells because this is where blizzard went first when going for nerfs - rather than toy with the actual usability of the spell. And it adds more micro to its usage - not as much as a projectile, sure, but it's still harder to get the money spells off when you can't hit as much. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:40 Integra wrote: Looks like Blizzard saw that MMM was the main strategy for Terran vs Zerg. I really wish they would buff the ultralisk instead of the combination of nerfing terran and buffing infestor. Right now ultralisks are useless and it feels like it would had been better if they made ultras a primary counter to late game bio Terrans... your trolling right? lol cause ultralisk are really good against terran bio atm atleast from what I been seeing on stream and experience | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
1. Reduce speed off-creep to queen speed 2. Implement passive skill "Creep Synergy" that makes infestor lose energy when off-creep but when in creep remains as it is. 3. Make fungal work that if you cast is next to opponent you lose 5-10 hitpoints but max range you lose 40-50 hp. So forces getting them closer to your opponents forces. | ||
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