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On December 19 2012 15:03 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 14:56 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 14:50 larse wrote:
Let's see what does range 10 means. Here is a list a unit's sight:
9 Marine
10 Marauder
11 Ghost
11 Siege Tank
11 Raven
10 Banshee
9 Zealot
10 Stalker
10 Sentry
10 High Templar
10 Colossus
10 Pheonix
10 Voidray
10 Cannon
Now range 10 means that infestor can hit almost all units when they can't even see your infestor !!!!
Whats the infestors sight range? Edit: Infestor has a sight range of 10. I'm sorry but whats the validity of your statement? I see none. You may have other zerg units in the front so you see enemy units, and your infestors are in the back, shoot out fungal. Enemy can't see your infestor.
Sounds like a recipe for imba.
Now Terran HAS TO INCLUDE widow mines in their strategy to act as spotters.
Because aside from spamming scans and controlling watch towers, all a Z needs is just one ling or overloard and an infestor drop can sneak inside the base and FG from a safe distance and retreat. 
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On December 19 2012 15:06 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:03 larse wrote:On December 19 2012 14:56 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 14:50 larse wrote:
Let's see what does range 10 means. Here is a list a unit's sight:
9 Marine
10 Marauder
11 Ghost
11 Siege Tank
11 Raven
10 Banshee
9 Zealot
10 Stalker
10 Sentry
10 High Templar
10 Colossus
10 Pheonix
10 Voidray
10 Cannon
Now range 10 means that infestor can hit almost all units when they can't even see your infestor !!!!
Whats the infestors sight range? Edit: Infestor has a sight range of 10. I'm sorry but whats the validity of your statement? I see none. You may have other zerg units in the front so you see enemy units, and your infestors are in the back, shoot out fungal. Enemy can't see your infestor. Oh so if you have a unit to scout for the infestor, then the infestor can see the enemy unit but it can't see the infestor. Wow man, that would appear to be a scouting advantage for the Zerg player now wouldnt it? -> well in this case, I'll retort with awful logic and say that a carrier can hit anything without other units being able to see it....if it has an observer over the units and that player doesn't have sight of it.
Interceptors are nowhere near as game-changing as fungal growth
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On December 19 2012 15:05 larse wrote:
If you preemptively move your stalker away when you see a infestor is coming close to you, then it's possible to dodge. But you can't dodge after you see the projectile coming. And it's range 10, so it's impossible to see the infestor coming if you don't have other units in the front.
If the Infestor fires from range 10, it will be that much easier to dodge.
Have you tried Blinking?
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On December 19 2012 15:06 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:03 larse wrote:On December 19 2012 14:56 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 14:50 larse wrote:
Let's see what does range 10 means. Here is a list a unit's sight:
9 Marine
10 Marauder
11 Ghost
11 Siege Tank
11 Raven
10 Banshee
9 Zealot
10 Stalker
10 Sentry
10 High Templar
10 Colossus
10 Pheonix
10 Voidray
10 Cannon
Now range 10 means that infestor can hit almost all units when they can't even see your infestor !!!!
Whats the infestors sight range? Edit: Infestor has a sight range of 10. I'm sorry but whats the validity of your statement? I see none. You may have other zerg units in the front so you see enemy units, and your infestors are in the back, shoot out fungal. Enemy can't see your infestor. Oh so if you have a unit to scout for the infestor, then the infestor can see the enemy unit but it can't see the infestor. Wow man, that would appear to be a scouting advantage for the Zerg player now wouldnt it? -> well in this case, I'll retort with awful logic and say that a carrier can hit anything without other units being able to see it....if it has an observer over the units and that player doesn't have sight of it.
Can carrier root untis in AOE in range 12? Infestor roots you in 10, you can't move so can't see infestor. Wow, logic.
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Honestly I just want fungal growth to be replaced with something else. Abilities that root units in place are fine in WoW, but I keep it out of starcraft please, blizzard. It's not fun to watch fungal growth spam in games, and it's definitely not fun to get hit with. It just feels cheap, you press a button and click where you want and suddenly my units are helpless and there's nothing I can do. As far as I can tell, right now it is the best ability in the game, in a lot of situations. One ability should not be this gamebreaking.
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On December 19 2012 15:11 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:05 larse wrote:
If you preemptively move your stalker away when you see a infestor is coming close to you, then it's possible to dodge. But you can't dodge after you see the projectile coming. And it's range 10, so it's impossible to see the infestor coming if you don't have other units in the front. If the Infestor fires from range 10, it will be that much easier to dodge. Have you tried Blinking?
I tried stalker standing in the max range, 10. You can't dodge when you see the projectile. Of course, blink is ok, you can dodge with blink.
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On December 19 2012 15:09 Wen_Jie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:06 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 15:03 larse wrote:On December 19 2012 14:56 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 14:50 larse wrote:
Let's see what does range 10 means. Here is a list a unit's sight:
9 Marine
10 Marauder
11 Ghost
11 Siege Tank
11 Raven
10 Banshee
9 Zealot
10 Stalker
10 Sentry
10 High Templar
10 Colossus
10 Pheonix
10 Voidray
10 Cannon
Now range 10 means that infestor can hit almost all units when they can't even see your infestor !!!!
Whats the infestors sight range? Edit: Infestor has a sight range of 10. I'm sorry but whats the validity of your statement? I see none. You may have other zerg units in the front so you see enemy units, and your infestors are in the back, shoot out fungal. Enemy can't see your infestor. Oh so if you have a unit to scout for the infestor, then the infestor can see the enemy unit but it can't see the infestor. Wow man, that would appear to be a scouting advantage for the Zerg player now wouldnt it? -> well in this case, I'll retort with awful logic and say that a carrier can hit anything without other units being able to see it....if it has an observer over the units and that player doesn't have sight of it. Interceptors are nowhere near as game-changing as fungal growth
You're changing the point of the argument. Common tactic when you know you've lost an argument.
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Fungal better than WoL fungal?
I just don even...
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the medivac change is brilliant. bc's inc
fungal growth op!! nah should still be fun
i'm not so sure about the blink change, but i haven't experienced it much on ladder yet
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On December 19 2012 15:06 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:03 larse wrote:On December 19 2012 14:56 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 14:50 larse wrote:
Let's see what does range 10 means. Here is a list a unit's sight:
9 Marine
10 Marauder
11 Ghost
11 Siege Tank
11 Raven
10 Banshee
9 Zealot
10 Stalker
10 Sentry
10 High Templar
10 Colossus
10 Pheonix
10 Voidray
10 Cannon
Now range 10 means that infestor can hit almost all units when they can't even see your infestor !!!!
Whats the infestors sight range? Edit: Infestor has a sight range of 10. I'm sorry but whats the validity of your statement? I see none. You may have other zerg units in the front so you see enemy units, and your infestors are in the back, shoot out fungal. Enemy can't see your infestor. Oh so if you have a unit to scout for the infestor, then the infestor can see the enemy unit but it can't see the infestor. Wow man, that would appear to be a scouting advantage for the Zerg player now wouldnt it? -> well in this case, I'll retort with awful logic and say that a carrier can hit anything without other units being able to see it....if it has an observer over the units and that player doesn't have sight of it.
But wait. Zergs don't need a unit to have vision of the enemy. They have something call creep... Which cover at least 1/2 of the map past mid game.
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ive been working on my hots balance dreamsheet.
I want sc2 to be as exciting as possible and i tried to fix all the things I think need fixing or a little bit of adjustment.
I dont wanna make my own thread for this ill probably email it to blizzard once i think i get it perfect. But before you claim my ideas are imbalanced i want you to FIRST read the ENTIRE changelog
next, if you think one thing is imbalanced try to consider it in the context of the entire changelong being implemented. I made some things overpowered, however i gave all races some pretty equally overpowered things and i think I evened out the strengths pretty well.
I guess the point of this post is, give me a little bit of feedback if you want to help me im slowly trying to make a changelist I think would improve the game then Ill email it to blizzard guys.
So if you think some of my ideas are really bad explain why you think its bad, and remember if you think its overpowered try to think of it in the context of all the other overpowered things I am adding
******************************************************
Seeker Missile:
Energy cost 75. cooldown is 40 seconds
Range 11
flight speed reduced, flight time is infinite so it always strikes its target, very slowly increases speed. flight speed starts at 2.5 and increases by 0.5 every 5 seconds
damage is 100 to initial target, 20 damage in 2.0 aoe (not scaling like current HSM, 20 flat aoe damage)
Infestors:
Fungal is range 10, instant, no longer roots units.
Infested Terran cast range is now 13.
Nueral Parasite doesnt require an upgrade, costs 50 energy, cannot target massive, range 7
Ghost Snipe / Cloak:
Snipe 100 damage for 100 energy, refunds 75 energy when used against psionic. 30 second cooldown.
Ghost cloak is permanent and uses no energy once upgraded. Ghost cloak upgrade cost is 250/250
There might be some mass ghost imbalance against zerg by sniping overseers (possibly a fix could be to give overseers a innate -75% resistance to spells)
Infestor health increased to 110
High templar health increased to 90, has 40 shields
Infested Terrans once again benefit from upgrades. Auto turrets now benefit from mech attack upgrades (armor is still linked to building armor)
Reapers / Mutas:
seem to be heading in the right direction. The increased reaper speed and regen is nice for early game power. I believe these units are not complete yet but they are definitely heading in the right direction. I feel a few more changes to each unit as good as the previous changes should hopefully turn these units into strong harassment options that are still useful in armies but are not overpowered.
Medivac healing rate increase Requires fusion core for upgrade
Vipers:
Cloud removed, HP highly increased (blizzard can balance the numbers), costs 2food, no longer psionic, energy removed, abduct spell is 30 second cooldown no energy required. cost is 100/150. now moves at 3.3 speed
Vipers now have a 11range anti-building acid attack that attacks only buildings and applies a stacking spell damage acid to buildings. blizzard can balance the numbers.
*cloud is just impossible to really balance properly. vipers cloud will either suck or force mass air vs zerg every game. IMO the above viper is a much more exciting unit
Mothership Core:
too strong against early aggression. Recall not needed. recall removed, recall should be a lategame spell. nexus cannon removed.
Mothership should be built at cyber core, 2minute buildtime, it should cost as much as 2stalkers (250/100/4) with roughly the strength of 2 stalkers, flying, stalker speed, and 5range, cannot attack air
I feel the cheap quick air unit makes it so protoss is unkillable early game, where as terran and zerg are still killable, imo that makes for boring games where there is no risk of loss before 11 minutes. Which is why i suggest the 2 minute mscore buildtime.
new mcore spells,
50energy, teleport the core itself to any friendly building. allows for some early mscore harassment which could be exciting
50energy, slightly increase attackspeed by 20% for 20 seconds to be slightly stronger vs allin
50energy, some detection for 20 seconds
all-in-all a mothership core should represent possibly the strength of ~3 stalkers for the price of ~2, that seems like a alright unit to add to protoss as their weak-hero-unit midgame, then they get a strong-hero-unit lategame in the mothership
widow mines:
having these target air is just horrible. they should be ground-only space controllers that act as the needed partner to tanks, so tanks and mines combined together should provide true ground based positional exciting play that viewers want, and then their supply can be reduced to 1 and other areas buffed to compensate.
Cost: 75/25/1
buildtime: 20 seconds, can be reactored
burrow time: 6 seconds
damage: mine instantly shoots a missile at any unit that comes within 3range and deals 100 splash magic damage in a 3.0 aoe of that unit. this missile is FIRED INSTANTLY but there is a 0.5 second detonation time. This means there is overkill if you stack too many mines in an area, generally an area will only need a few mines.
if you put 10 mines in an area it would have the same effect as just 2-3 mines there, meaning players are do not benefit from massing mines in a single area. but mines are still strong if you just get a few of them combined with your army.
mine clearing tactics will be powerful against mines with speedlings or chargelots but a couple mines combined with tanks will still be strong even with the clearing tactics as the cost of mines is cheap if used smartly.
after firing the missile, the mines have a 30 second cooldown period where they are unable to move and are no longer cloaked. after 30 seconds they recharge and can move and unburrow and are cloaked when burrowed
MINES CAN NO LONGER be "switched off", while burrowed the detonate missile is autocast and automatic, meaning players cannot turn off mines to avoid mine clearing.
Mines cannot target timed-life units unless ordered to (broodlings, locusts)
Mothership , vortex:
Removing vortex is good
Mothership cost is 150/300 (since core is 250/100) 60 second buildtime in the nexus (core attaches to a nexus)
3 mothership spells
Wormhole Transit: Teleport anywhere on the map instantly (no vision required). Mass Recall cannot be used for 15 seconds after teleporting. 50 energy
Photon Overcharge: Doubles damage and increases movespeed and accell to 4.0 for 20 seconds. 50 energy
Mass recall, 100 energy
when wormhole transit is used, game says "wormhole detected" and pings area on the map where wormhole was (appears as small blue dot for 10 seconds for all players on minimap)
swarmhosts:
should be strong with my buffed hydras and my new nydus. blizzard can make them properly balanced with some work
Nydus:
network now costs 50/100 (+50 for drone) but has 70 seconds increased buildtime. nydus worms can simply be casted anywhere on the map without vision, if something is blocking the worm, the worm gets automatically placed (pushing the unit) or if a building is there the worm says "cannot be placed"
zerg can only own/control one nydus network. if a network is building or exists and zerg tries to build another network, the game says "cannot make more than 1 network"
nydus worms have a 30 second cooldown and cost 50/50 to place.
when nydus worms are placed it says "nydus worm detected" for the enemy and it pings an area on the map where the worm is.
nydus networks and worms are permanently revealed to the enemy always (like buildings after all hatcheries are dead)
nydus unload rate increased by 35%
nydus network has 1000 increased health (worms health unchanged)
zerg drops are 100/100 cost but have 90 seconds extra researchtime
Corruption spell removed. Corrupters new spell is called Reality Rift. This spell has a 30 second cooldown and costs no energy. The spell is targeted anywhere on the map (no vision needed). Causes the corrupter to Channel the spell for 6 seconds (during which the corrupter cannot move or attack), after which the corrupter instantly teleports to the location.
Broodlords morph time is 10 seconds
hive no longer needs infestation pit for upgrade. lair has a 60 second cooldown upon being made in which it cannot begin hive transformation
Oracle buildtime is increased to 75 seconds. This is assuming their current power is left unchanged (I feel their current state in balance patch 10 is very strong and their timing needs to be nerfed compared to blueflame hellions which cannot hit as fast or as reliably). This 75 second buildtime can be augmented by building more stargates.
stargates have a 150/150 upgrade called fleetgate. this 20 second transformation turns it into a fleetgate. fleetgates have twice the health, and unit buildtimes are 50% less than a normal stargate.
fusion core now now has 20 second buildtime
starport has a 200/125 upgrade called starbase. this requires fusion core. this 15 second transformation turns it into a starbase which can produce units while flying. flys at normal building speed with twice the health. banshee/bc/raven buildtimes are 50% less than a normal starport. viking/medivac buildtimes are 75% less than a normal starport.
starbase cannot land. when given a move command it moves the starbase (does not change its rally). pressing R-click changes the starbases rally. starbase is captable of R-clicking to rally on itself, making produced units follow the starbase. starbase is last in unit-list of control-groups, players normally will add a starbase to their lategame army and keep it in their main combat group providing light air combat reinforcements.
terran can only have 1 starbase. if he tries to build one when one is made or upgrading, the game says "can only have 1 starbase"
starbase has combat priority equal to a destructible rock. floating factories can tank / mess up unit AI in battles, but starbase will never be attacked by a player in a a-move command. starbase has the same combat priority as a destructible rock meaning units will only attack it when directly commanded to.
ultralisk cavern buildtime is now 20 seconds
overseer sight and detection range is 13
raven sight and detection range is 13
observer sight and detection range is 13
banshee cloak is 100/100
spore crawler requires evo chamber
voidrays keep their WoL charge mechanic and damage, but lose the +damage to massive
durable materials costs 50/50
bunker frames added into building armor upgrade
blue flame upgrade is 100/100 (down from 150/150)
auto tracking for turrets/PF is 50/50
roach burrow movement speed is equal to runspeed (both normal and upgraded)
hydralisk base armor increased by 2
Nuclear missile cost is 50/50
When nuclear missile is used, displays area of effect to the enemy and pings the map revealing location (no longer do you need to search for a red dot. it displays the full aoe to both players)
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SC2 is a trilogy
Wings of Liberty = Terrans are OP at start, scaled back as the expansion goes on
Heart of the swarm = zerg is OP at the start, scaled back as expansions goes on
simple.
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People who complain about Fungal Growths root effect seem to forget that Protoss had TWO abilities in BW that had root effects and prevented micro as well. It didn't originate in WC3 or WoW people get over the fact that Zerg has a spell that ha root in SC2.
Now I bet a bunch of people will tell me how it's somehow different because fungal does damage and stasis field makes it so the units can't even attack.
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On December 19 2012 15:18 ClanRH.TV wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:09 Wen_Jie wrote:On December 19 2012 15:06 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 15:03 larse wrote:On December 19 2012 14:56 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 14:50 larse wrote:
Let's see what does range 10 means. Here is a list a unit's sight:
9 Marine
10 Marauder
11 Ghost
11 Siege Tank
11 Raven
10 Banshee
9 Zealot
10 Stalker
10 Sentry
10 High Templar
10 Colossus
10 Pheonix
10 Voidray
10 Cannon
Now range 10 means that infestor can hit almost all units when they can't even see your infestor !!!!
Whats the infestors sight range? Edit: Infestor has a sight range of 10. I'm sorry but whats the validity of your statement? I see none. You may have other zerg units in the front so you see enemy units, and your infestors are in the back, shoot out fungal. Enemy can't see your infestor. Oh so if you have a unit to scout for the infestor, then the infestor can see the enemy unit but it can't see the infestor. Wow man, that would appear to be a scouting advantage for the Zerg player now wouldnt it? -> well in this case, I'll retort with awful logic and say that a carrier can hit anything without other units being able to see it....if it has an observer over the units and that player doesn't have sight of it. Interceptors are nowhere near as game-changing as fungal growth You're changing the point of the argument. Common tactic when you know you've lost an argument.
Off-topic
+ Show Spoiler +Eh... no :/
Are you in the habit of announcing when you think you're 'winning' an argument? I'm sure the six other people reading this thread are in awe of your amazing victory.
Anyway, if you don't see the carrier, you can back away, or you can move closer to see it. If you don't see a fungal growth, your units are rooted.
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On December 19 2012 15:31 sagefreke wrote:
People who complain about Fungal Growths root effect seem to forget that Protoss had TWO abilities in BW that had root effects and prevented micro as well. It didn't originate in WC3 or WoW people get over the fact that Zerg has a spell that ha root in SC2.
Now I bet a bunch of people will tell me how it's somehow different because fungal does damage and stasis field makes it so the units can't even attack.
You couldn't damage the units that were rooted.
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So to sum up Terran in HotS:
- Terran gets a shitty mine that cannot detect and doesnt even kill a single Zealot.
- A Hellion that is biological but doesnt benefit from bio upgrades but gets bonus damage from Archons.
- Reapers that destroyed the best mirror matchup in the game.
- A medivac upgrade that requires a fucking fusion core.
- Mech TvP is still utter trash.
While other races ge amazing things like the Viper.
Rofl.
That sums it up pretty good. Funniest race to watch in wol almost unplayable for lower levels in hots.
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On December 19 2012 15:27 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 15:06 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 15:03 larse wrote:On December 19 2012 14:56 ClanRH.TV wrote:On December 19 2012 14:50 larse wrote:
Let's see what does range 10 means. Here is a list a unit's sight:
9 Marine
10 Marauder
11 Ghost
11 Siege Tank
11 Raven
10 Banshee
9 Zealot
10 Stalker
10 Sentry
10 High Templar
10 Colossus
10 Pheonix
10 Voidray
10 Cannon
Now range 10 means that infestor can hit almost all units when they can't even see your infestor !!!!
Whats the infestors sight range? Edit: Infestor has a sight range of 10. I'm sorry but whats the validity of your statement? I see none. You may have other zerg units in the front so you see enemy units, and your infestors are in the back, shoot out fungal. Enemy can't see your infestor. Oh so if you have a unit to scout for the infestor, then the infestor can see the enemy unit but it can't see the infestor. Wow man, that would appear to be a scouting advantage for the Zerg player now wouldnt it? -> well in this case, I'll retort with awful logic and say that a carrier can hit anything without other units being able to see it....if it has an observer over the units and that player doesn't have sight of it. But wait. Zergs don't need a unit to have vision of the enemy. They have something call creep... Which cover at least 1/2 of the map past mid game.
So ling/bling contain into creep spread and mass swarm host/infestor will be free wins for Zerg until masters.
I don't even think of how to counter this...
Mass Locus prevent movement as does FG.
20 infestors covered by overseers and viper's abduct mean not even ghosts can approach cloaked to fire off EMP.
This means with perfect micro, the comp is unbeatable.
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On December 19 2012 15:31 sagefreke wrote:
People who complain about Fungal Growths root effect seem to forget that Protoss had TWO abilities in BW that had root effects and prevented micro as well. It didn't originate in WC3 or WoW people get over the fact that Zerg has a spell that ha root in SC2.
Now I bet a bunch of people will tell me how it's somehow different because fungal does damage and stasis field makes it so the units can't even attack.
Did players win by massing 20-30 arbiters in BW? AoE works differently in SC2 because the units clump so much more. Imagine SC2 tanks with BW tank damage and range... Storm was also much stronger in terms of damage in BW. But you needed multiple good storms to really turn a battle. In SC2, 1 good storm turns a battle.
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[QUOTE]On December 19 2012 15:31 Wen_Jie wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 19 2012 15:18 ClanRH.TV wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 19 2012 15:09 Wen_Jie wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 19 2012 15:06 ClanRH.TV wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 19 2012 15:03 larse wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 19 2012 14:56 ClanRH.TV wrote:
[QUOTE]On December 19 2012 14:50 larse wrote:
Let's see what does range 10 means. Here is a list a unit's sight:
9 Marine
10 Marauder
11 Ghost
11 Siege Tank
11 Raven
10 Banshee
9 Zealot
10 Stalker
10 Sentry
10 High Templar
10 Colossus
10 Pheonix
10 Voidray
10 Cannon
Now range 10 means that infestor can hit almost all units when they can't even see your infestor !!!!
[/QUOTE]
Whats the infestors sight range?
Edit: Infestor has a sight range of 10. I'm sorry but whats the validity of your statement? I see none.[/QUOTE]
You may have other zerg units in the front so you see enemy units, and your infestors are in the back, shoot out fungal. Enemy can't see your infestor.[/QUOTE]
Oh so if you have a unit to scout for the infestor, then the infestor can see the enemy unit but it can't see the infestor. Wow man, that would appear to be a scouting advantage for the Zerg player now wouldnt it?
-> well in this case, I'll retort with awful logic and say that a carrier can hit anything without other units being able to see it....if it has an observer over the units and that player doesn't have sight of it. [/QUOsTE]
Interceptors are nowhere near as game-changing as fungal growth
[/QUOTE]
You're changing the point of the argument. Common tactic when you know you've lost an argument.
[/QUOTE]
Off-topic
+ Show Spoiler +Eh... no :/
Are you in the habit of announcing when you think you're 'winning' an argument? I'm sure the six other people reading this thread are in awe of your amazing victory.
Anyway, if you don't see the carrier, you can back away, or you can move closer to see it. If you don't see a fungal growth, your units are rooted.[/QUOTE]
Again, your replies are unintelligent, childish and illogical. Maybe getting your GED would help. If you choose to make an impulsive comment that not only adds nothing to the point, but detracts/derails the discussion, then its probably better that you not speak at all. So yes, you lose. Good game though.
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
