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On December 19 2012 11:25 aksfjh wrote:
I imagine projectile speed works on the same fundamental as movement speed of units, minus acceleration. This means the ability to dodge it can be done through ratios without knowing actual timings.
Fungal projectile has a movement speed of 15, while a muta has a movement speed of 4 (in HotS). In the time it takes for fungal to hit a target at X distance away, a muta can move 26.67% of that distance. Fungal has a radius of 2. That means the max distance you can click directly on a muta and miss is 7.5.
Now, what is the minimum speed that a unit can move without getting hit by a decently aimed fungal at 10 range? 3 is the minimum speed. Anything slower than that and a fungal will guarantee a hit. If it's a pack of units, the total movement needed to completely escape is 6, which can only be done with speedlings on creep.
There isn't ANY reaction time allocated to this change, only bad aim on the Zerg's part. That makes it no different than an instant cast spell.
SC2 units have acceleration as well, correct? Which means that to change direction or move from a dead stop to their designated "movement speed" (i.e. top speed) will actually take time as well. So this means things are actually slightly worse for the "fungal dodging" player than in your scenario. Yikes!
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On December 19 2012 11:25 aksfjh wrote:
I imagine projectile speed works on the same fundamental as movement speed of units, minus acceleration. This means the ability to dodge it can be done through ratios without knowing actual timings.
Fungal projectile has a movement speed of 15, while a muta has a movement speed of 4 (in HotS). In the time it takes for fungal to hit a target at X distance away, a muta can move 26.67% of that distance. Fungal has a radius of 2. That means the max distance you can click directly on a muta and miss is 7.5.
Now, what is the minimum speed that a unit can move without getting hit by a decently aimed fungal at 10 range? 3 is the minimum speed. Anything slower than that and a fungal will guarantee a hit. If it's a pack of units, the total movement needed to completely escape is 6, which can only be done with speedlings on creep.
There isn't ANY reaction time allocated to this change, only bad aim on the Zerg's part. That makes it no different than an instant cast spell.
Gonna take time for people to realize this. Until then, welcome back Heart of the Infestor...
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Beta is back up, just tested the new fungal...lol. A lot of people are not going to be happy.
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On December 19 2012 11:25 aksfjh wrote:
I imagine projectile speed works on the same fundamental as movement speed of units, minus acceleration. This means the ability to dodge it can be done through ratios without knowing actual timings.
Fungal projectile has a movement speed of 15, while a muta has a movement speed of 4 (in HotS). In the time it takes for fungal to hit a target at X distance away, a muta can move 26.67% of that distance. Fungal has a radius of 2. That means the max distance you can click directly on a muta and miss is 7.5.
Now, what is the minimum speed that a unit can move without getting hit by a decently aimed fungal at 10 range? 3 is the minimum speed. Anything slower than that and a fungal will guarantee a hit. If it's a pack of units, the total movement needed to completely escape is 6, which can only be done with speedlings on creep.
There isn't ANY reaction time allocated to this change, only bad aim on the Zerg's part. That makes it no different than an instant cast spell.
Obviously with a pack of units, the question is not whether you completely escape. I think it's weird that you demand that a well-aimed fungal have the potential to do 0 damage even on a pack of units.
Of course, I suppose if you're really sexy you can blink out of it.
Edit: And it obviously raises the skill cap of using fungal because of the delay. That makes it much harder to get a good clump of units like with an instant cast spell. That, in my opinion, is the only reason to make it a projectile in the first place. Not to make it dodgeable. Otherwise infestors would be completely unreliable.
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On December 19 2012 11:15 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 10:54 Doc Daneeka wrote:
widow mine nerf is fine. blink nerf makes sense to me given the early high ground vision from the mothership core, though i don't know if that's precisely what they were trying to address. caduceus reactor was absurd so good move, dunno if it'll be enough.
i'm kind of torn on the fungal buff. yeah it was nerfed too much before, but i almost wish they'd increase the root time or the DPS instead of this... fungal was actually starting to become fun to watch. i'd rather they design it to punish getting caught by it somehow rather than make it easier to get caught. but maybe they think it'll function too much like storm in that case? i dunno. How can you say that. THey make it useless vs protoss. Is that great game design?
it's not, but the widow mine isn't great game design to begin with in my opinion. it seems kind of like the reaper to me - one little push in the nerf direction makes it useless, one little push in the buff direction makes it ridiculous. i hope they find a sweet spot for it but i'm not holding my breath. i'd rather they they bring back the warhound as a utility unit that builds widow mines on the field (which recharge but can't be moved, or something to that effect.)
so basically terran just got shafted in terms of new units. sorry guys. better luck in LotV. you had a good run there for awhile though.
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On December 19 2012 11:35 avilo wrote:
Beta is back up, just tested the new fungal...lol. A lot of people are not going to be happy.
I doubt they were happy before testing it, tbqh.
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On December 19 2012 11:21 NarAliya wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 10:55 hunts wrote:
I mean you people DO realize that 10 range with the travel time is still much much worse than 9 range instant, right? Or do you actually think it's a significant buff that will make infestors god mode in HOTS or something? These people are very stupid.. All they do is cry. It took me but seconds to realize that an increased range whilst still being a projectile isn't that much of a buff, it is enough travel time for your opponent to micro out of it. The range increase and speed increase means you can land fungals, however the range increase means your opponents can micro out of it.. Infestors are always going to be casting from 10 range or else they are instakilled.
It depends on how fast 15 actually is. It will require some testing to see if players are really able to micro out of a 15 speed projectile. But just looking at the numbers, 15 is really goddamn fast. Speed banes on creep is 3.83 for comparison.
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On December 19 2012 11:39 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 11:21 NarAliya wrote:On December 19 2012 10:55 hunts wrote:
I mean you people DO realize that 10 range with the travel time is still much much worse than 9 range instant, right? Or do you actually think it's a significant buff that will make infestors god mode in HOTS or something? These people are very stupid.. All they do is cry. It took me but seconds to realize that an increased range whilst still being a projectile isn't that much of a buff, it is enough travel time for your opponent to micro out of it. The range increase and speed increase means you can land fungals, however the range increase means your opponents can micro out of it.. Infestors are always going to be casting from 10 range or else they are instakilled. It depends on how fast 15 actually is. It will require some testing to see if players are really able to micro out of a 15 speed projectile. But just looking at the numbers, 15 is really goddamn fast.
well, most people have over 200 ping to the beta server, so its not the best place to test it. at LAN latency i thinkit would be amazing for game play, but with delay of servers its too fast
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Where is the thread discussing/complaining about balance changes from people who actually tried out the changes? Not just the Chicken Littles....
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On December 19 2012 11:36 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 11:25 aksfjh wrote:
I imagine projectile speed works on the same fundamental as movement speed of units, minus acceleration. This means the ability to dodge it can be done through ratios without knowing actual timings.
Fungal projectile has a movement speed of 15, while a muta has a movement speed of 4 (in HotS). In the time it takes for fungal to hit a target at X distance away, a muta can move 26.67% of that distance. Fungal has a radius of 2. That means the max distance you can click directly on a muta and miss is 7.5.
Now, what is the minimum speed that a unit can move without getting hit by a decently aimed fungal at 10 range? 3 is the minimum speed. Anything slower than that and a fungal will guarantee a hit. If it's a pack of units, the total movement needed to completely escape is 6, which can only be done with speedlings on creep.
There isn't ANY reaction time allocated to this change, only bad aim on the Zerg's part. That makes it no different than an instant cast spell. Obviously with a pack of units, the question is not whether you completely escape. I think it's weird that you demand that a well-aimed fungal have the potential to do 0 damage even on a pack of units. Of course, I suppose if you're really sexy you can blink out of it.
Kinda like a well timed seeker missile in WoL? I'm not even talking about a particularly well aimed fungal, just one that is directed at a unit. You start factoring in people with great aim, we're talking FPS sniper leading here, and you have an ability that will never "whiff." Mix that with the fact that a hit fungal often means a guaranteed kill for energy. Sounds like a buff to me.
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Well, 10 was pathetically slow, so I think 15 will be a good speed.
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Blizzard just gave the infestor one of its balls back xD
I thought they were still okay pre-patch honestly.
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On December 19 2012 11:41 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 11:39 vthree wrote:On December 19 2012 11:21 NarAliya wrote:On December 19 2012 10:55 hunts wrote:
I mean you people DO realize that 10 range with the travel time is still much much worse than 9 range instant, right? Or do you actually think it's a significant buff that will make infestors god mode in HOTS or something? These people are very stupid.. All they do is cry. It took me but seconds to realize that an increased range whilst still being a projectile isn't that much of a buff, it is enough travel time for your opponent to micro out of it. The range increase and speed increase means you can land fungals, however the range increase means your opponents can micro out of it.. Infestors are always going to be casting from 10 range or else they are instakilled. It depends on how fast 15 actually is. It will require some testing to see if players are really able to micro out of a 15 speed projectile. But just looking at the numbers, 15 is really goddamn fast. well, most people have over 200 ping to the beta server, so its not the best place to test it. at LAN latency i thinkit would be amazing for game play, but with delay of servers its too fast
Then they need to have players (outside of Blizzard) test it in a LAN environment. Because honestly, I don't think too many people are going to take Blizzard's word regarding internal testing.
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On December 19 2012 11:44 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 11:36 DoubleReed wrote:On December 19 2012 11:25 aksfjh wrote:
I imagine projectile speed works on the same fundamental as movement speed of units, minus acceleration. This means the ability to dodge it can be done through ratios without knowing actual timings.
Fungal projectile has a movement speed of 15, while a muta has a movement speed of 4 (in HotS). In the time it takes for fungal to hit a target at X distance away, a muta can move 26.67% of that distance. Fungal has a radius of 2. That means the max distance you can click directly on a muta and miss is 7.5.
Now, what is the minimum speed that a unit can move without getting hit by a decently aimed fungal at 10 range? 3 is the minimum speed. Anything slower than that and a fungal will guarantee a hit. If it's a pack of units, the total movement needed to completely escape is 6, which can only be done with speedlings on creep.
There isn't ANY reaction time allocated to this change, only bad aim on the Zerg's part. That makes it no different than an instant cast spell. Obviously with a pack of units, the question is not whether you completely escape. I think it's weird that you demand that a well-aimed fungal have the potential to do 0 damage even on a pack of units. Of course, I suppose if you're really sexy you can blink out of it. Kinda like a well timed seeker missile in WoL? I'm not even talking about a particularly well aimed fungal, just one that is directed at a unit. You start factoring in people with great aim, we're talking FPS sniper leading here, and you have an ability that will never "whiff." Mix that with the fact that a hit fungal often means a guaranteed kill for energy. Sounds like a buff to me.
Buff? Making it a projectile is obviously strictly a nerf, as it just makes fungal harder to aim at units because of the delay. IMO the projectile shouldn't be making it dodgeable, it should just be raising the skill cap of using the spell, because with instant cast it's far too easy to get great clumps of units.
Unless you're talking about the range thing too. That's obviously silly. 10 range is CRAZY. Won't last long.
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On December 19 2012 11:46 Harbinger631 wrote:
Well, 10 was pathetically slow, so I think 15 will be a good speed.
But 5 speed AND 2 range?
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yeah the new fungal is pretty ridiculous
T_T
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Blizzard please either remove FG and add a new ability or remove FG and buff the other units appropriately. FG is terrible from a gameplay and spectator POV and I believe the vast majority of SC2 players would agree to have a drastically lower emphasis on the infestor.
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Infestor fungal is now stronger because infestors in the back can now launch fungals a lot easier than before where as you had to move infestors out of the way previously to get in range to fungal, as well as infestors getting in range of the enemy.
It's even more "ez mode now." I urge everyone to go into the unit tester and try it yourself. Wait till we see games with 20+ infestors again, where they are carbet bombing fungals, it's going to be about as easy as wings of liberty (in some cases even easier )because you can get many more off.
facepalms at this patch*
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On December 19 2012 11:48 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 11:44 aksfjh wrote:On December 19 2012 11:36 DoubleReed wrote:On December 19 2012 11:25 aksfjh wrote:
I imagine projectile speed works on the same fundamental as movement speed of units, minus acceleration. This means the ability to dodge it can be done through ratios without knowing actual timings.
Fungal projectile has a movement speed of 15, while a muta has a movement speed of 4 (in HotS). In the time it takes for fungal to hit a target at X distance away, a muta can move 26.67% of that distance. Fungal has a radius of 2. That means the max distance you can click directly on a muta and miss is 7.5.
Now, what is the minimum speed that a unit can move without getting hit by a decently aimed fungal at 10 range? 3 is the minimum speed. Anything slower than that and a fungal will guarantee a hit. If it's a pack of units, the total movement needed to completely escape is 6, which can only be done with speedlings on creep.
There isn't ANY reaction time allocated to this change, only bad aim on the Zerg's part. That makes it no different than an instant cast spell. Obviously with a pack of units, the question is not whether you completely escape. I think it's weird that you demand that a well-aimed fungal have the potential to do 0 damage even on a pack of units. Of course, I suppose if you're really sexy you can blink out of it. Kinda like a well timed seeker missile in WoL? I'm not even talking about a particularly well aimed fungal, just one that is directed at a unit. You start factoring in people with great aim, we're talking FPS sniper leading here, and you have an ability that will never "whiff." Mix that with the fact that a hit fungal often means a guaranteed kill for energy. Sounds like a buff to me. Buff? Making it a projectile is obviously strictly a nerf, as it just makes fungal harder to aim at units because of the delay. IMO the projectile shouldn't be making it dodgeable, it should just be raising the skill cap of using the spell, because with instant cast it's far too easy to get great clumps of units. Unless you're talking about the range thing too. That's obviously silly. 10 range is CRAZY. Won't last long.
Yea, the range is the stupid part. Projectile speed is just annoying because people are treating it as some great offset and justification for the range. As if, as humans that learn at the age of 2 to predict movement and trajectories, are somehow extremely incapable of hitting a moving target with a moving object. On top of that, a moving object that can't be dodged for 2/3s of its functional range.
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WTF Blizzard? buff infestor? Are you fucking kidding me?
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EPT
