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On December 19 2012 06:54 CCa1ss1e wrote:
I like that caduceus reactor change.. seems to make sense.
Fungal change interesting.. don't mind it at all.
No no no, you're doing it wrong. You're suppose to jump to crazy conclusions as to how these changes have ruined every match up in every way.
But in all seriousness, most of you guys need to take it easy and test out some of these changes before you go ape shit on the forums about Blizzard or the game, it's getting old.
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I was getting excited for HotS... DAMN YOU BLIZZARD FUCKKKKKKKKK
david kim stop trying to design the zerg race around something as retarded as the infestor
this ruined my day
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I know its a beta and they're messing around etc. , but I really dislike they way they patch things. Their idea of patching is "let's buff this unit so people use it more" . I really hate being forced to make a certain unit because the game developers have buffed it. It's a really shitty way to encourage unit use. I'd much more prefer if they "buffed" units by changing their abilities. That way people can experiment and maybe we'll see creative things, but right now we have the same strats going in circles (infestors are shit ok i'm massing roach/hydra, oh infestors are good again time to go back to broodlord/infestor ). It's just so damn bad of them they really need to change the balance team I'm sorry to say this, but it just reeks of incompetence.
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I personally like this patch although the infestor range buff is questionable.
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On December 19 2012 07:15 Seiniyta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 07:09 Neramaar wrote:On December 19 2012 06:51 tsuxiit wrote:
Ah, wonder if they'll fix the Mac client.
Hahahahahahaha. They would never do that. They said that they'd fix it in the next patch - this would qualify. Only that this isn't a patch but simply balance changes. Reading seems to problematic for some.
Fair, though there's no need to be a dick about it. The difference between a patch, and 'balance changes' is ambiguous, at best.
Basic language skills seem to be problematic for some.
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On December 19 2012 08:02 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 07:57 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 07:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote:
It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal.
Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away.
This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think.
Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course.
Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink.
I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable.
BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared.
But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. It would be a rational post if not for the fact that the iteration was not even tested substantially. It takes a while to develop good skills to aim spells like that. How long did Zergs have to get used to the new Fungal? We saw in WoL that as time went people got progressively better at using units and skill despite the fact that they did not change. Even when Fungal and Infestor oriented play was beginning it was no where near as good as it is today. I don't see how such a powerful spell, considering its function, was not given more time so as to probe what its actual potential could be. Maybe it was hard to completely deny any hope for retreat for your opponent with the new Fungal, but that was the raging topic in WoL to begin with. It should not be an easy task to completely deny all retreat. Now it's easier to deny that. When we are talking about engaging the Zerg army, now it becomes, potentially, even harder than it ever was in WoL. To be fair to zergs, I was able to dodge fungles with phoenixes that were at a dead stop. I saw the infestor waddling up and moved them away. I think the zerg got two of the 8 had with the fungle. I think the only way he could have hit the majority of them was if I wasn't looking at the screen. That's what I mean. The spell went from a no skill guaranteed hit to a skill based judgement call. Just because you moved your Pheonixes out of the way does not mean we have to assume the Zerg did his best at attempting to Fungal them. He probably just pressed "F" and clicked on your Pheonixes without even thinking. Wouldn't it take more skill for the spell user to accept the fact that you can see his units and that his intent is painfully obvious? Woe unto us if Zergs were to use creativity once in a while when approaching an engagement.
I think you missed the part of my story where my phoenixes were not moving!!! How is he supposted to make a judgment call when the units isn't moving? It can go any direction it wants and it did. I don't like fungle, but it was really not at all useful unless the units were not being controled any way.
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I', going to just close my eyes and pray the somehow manage to not fuck with everything and the game actually looks good at release. No point frustrating myself. I'm done with HOTS testing.
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Well the Blink nerf will help early game TvP but not fix it cause Protoss can still somehow support a 4 gate blink stalker allin which is so hard to deal with as a terran if you expanded. If you did not expand its still not even close to easy to beat.
Fungel well we wills see how that will work now but why does everything revolve around the infestor? I mean blizzard buffs units that are not already overused for other races but for zerg its always the infestors I mean doesnt that race have units that are not already very strong that one could make stronger? I mean like hydras are still not used as much.
Well the widow mine. hmmm nice any toss allin will be even stronger now  gogo make the terran even more pushed back and not use the only thing they have, mobility. 
The medivac nerf was kinda expected :D this upgrade ist completely imbalanced and should be removed for something that seems more fair :D
Greetings from a poor little Terran missing his warhound :D
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Is beta down for anybody else?
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Wow, what an impressive display of whining.
Things will change you know people, its a beta. Its not the end of the world. Not for a few days at least :p
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Also, at this point - Warhound back. I want to mass that shit, cos apparently, there is no way Blizzard is going to fix TvP.
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The widow mine nerf is a little upsetting to me. I was setting up widow mine flanks when I got dropped to kill the retreating medivacs. Now i'll need 2 mines to do this...
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On December 19 2012 07:59 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 07:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote:
It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal.
Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away.
This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think.
Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course.
Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink.
I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable.
BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared.
But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. It would be a rational post if not for the fact that the iteration was not even tested substantially. It takes a while to develop good skills to aim spells like that. How long did Zergs have to get used to the new Fungal? We saw in WoL that as time went people got progressively better at using units and skill despite the fact that they did not change. Even when Fungal and Infestor oriented play was beginning it was no where near as good as it is today. I don't see how such a powerful spell, considering its function, was not given more time so as to probe what its actual potential could be. Maybe it was hard to completely deny any hope for retreat for your opponent with the new Fungal, but that was the raging topic in WoL to begin with. It should not be an easy task to completely deny all retreat. Now it's easier to deny that. When we are talking about engaging the Zerg army, now it becomes, potentially, even harder than it ever was in WoL. If you read my post/understand it, you should realize the new Hots fungal is still worse than the current WoL range 8 Instant Fungal. Skill or not, there is also luck and then also the problem of retreating units as I described earlier. It's no question that the new fungal is weaker. The benefit of having a little extra range vs units that arent moving is nothing compared to the nerf of not being able to fungal anything that moves as effectively as PERFECT instant fungals provided.
Just because it's slightly (yet to be assessed) weaker that the current WoL Fungal doesn't mean it's not a strong, or even too strong, of a spell. We're going back to the Infestor turtle style play again. You can sight a choke and when you see an army approaching you can time a carpet Fungal to completely halt an army in its tracks while out of range of practically any unit. Remember that the radius of Fungal is 2 so the effective block begins at 12 range. If you Fungal the first row of units you have effectively halted an advance. There will be Zergs who will be good enough to do this, and as a result will be almost untouchable.
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fungal was extinct for sure. projectile alone made it really really hard to pull off, to the point that i think it was overnerfed. glad they're adding a faster projectile for us; was killing us in Muta wars.
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Infestors were really, really, REALLY bad in HoTS. Even with my vastly sub par micro I could dodge fungal growth. No, really. It's an increase of 50% speed. It's still not that good. You will still miss them pretty hard.
Hell, you know it's bad when I, as a terran, want infestors buffed. They got nerfed incredibly hard.
Medivac change was suggested by everyone who played with them. It's fine requiring a fusion core. It's meant to be late game, so fusion core should make it late game.
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On December 19 2012 07:54 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 07:48 iEchoic wrote:On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote:
BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared.
But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. This isn't a good analogy because the new fungal travels the 10 range faster than it used to travel the 8 range. If they didn't increase the speed as well, this wouldn't be an issue. Imagine in your example that the fungal traveled 20 range faster than it currently travels 10. That's the proper analogy, and yeah, that would be broken. a fair point I guess, tho I don't see how that would be broken. You'd still never hit anything even with the new speed if the distance was 20 and they were watching. but I'ma edit that part out as it's unnecessary anyway I think.
In your example, 20 would be the max range, but what if you were to cast it from a shorter distance ? The speed would remain the same and fungal would not be dodgeable.
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So how can I counter infestors now?
Infestor:
Good against: any unit you can make
Weak against: player going to opposing players house and punching his lights out
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I wonder if, hilariously, the best method for dodging fungals now is to sprint your army TOWARDS the infestors.
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so fungals reign of terror is/was more than a year, and it was always "we'll wait and see". what if people are still casting fungals with old fungal timing/reflexes and missing. you buff it to 10, and 2-3 months later when people finally get use to the missile+speed, you end up right back where you started...
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On December 19 2012 07:59 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 07:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote:
It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal.
Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away.
This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think.
Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course.
Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink.
I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable.
BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared.
But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. It would be a rational post if not for the fact that the iteration was not even tested substantially. It takes a while to develop good skills to aim spells like that. How long did Zergs have to get used to the new Fungal? We saw in WoL that as time went people got progressively better at using units and skill despite the fact that they did not change. Even when Fungal and Infestor oriented play was beginning it was no where near as good as it is today. I don't see how such a powerful spell, considering its function, was not given more time so as to probe what its actual potential could be. Maybe it was hard to completely deny any hope for retreat for your opponent with the new Fungal, but that was the raging topic in WoL to begin with. It should not be an easy task to completely deny all retreat. Now it's easier to deny that. When we are talking about engaging the Zerg army, now it becomes, potentially, even harder than it ever was in WoL. If you read my post/understand it, y ou should realize the new Hots fungal is still worse than the current WoL range 8 Instant Fungal. Skill or not, there is also luck and then also the problem of retreating units as I described earlier. It's no question that the new fungal is weaker. The benefit of having a little extra range vs units that arent moving is nothing compared to the nerf of not being able to fungal anything that moves as effectively as PERFECT instant fungals provided.
You're not accounting for the fact that you can chain-fungal from 2 more range than in WoL. Changing it to a projectile did not change this. This is not an insigificant difference, and chain fungaling is now stronger in HotS than WoL.
Sorry for chain-responding to you, I just think your argument here has a lot of flaws.
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EPT
