EPTBeta Balance Update #10 - Page 21
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
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HollowLord
United States3862 Posts
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rdswolf
Mexico2 Posts
People seem to forget that we are in the beta, and that balance changes are not definitive. | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
Buffing fungal at all in the current state of mind people have about fungal is terrible. Nobody likes fungal. Nobody. Caduceus is kind of understandable, but now there's just no good way to transition into actually getting it until after splash has already been in play for awhile. By the time it comes around, it won't have much of an impact. Blink research I don't understand at all, and I personally hate blink all ins. Widow Mine is useless now if it can't even stop drops. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:13 Novacute wrote: So now window mines will be less useful against Protoss. Zealots and stalkers no longer dies to this, how does a factory opening into mech work against early protoss aggression now? Are we supposed to mass infantry and bunker up before going factory? This is a setback to TvP mech. Yes. That is how you play it. This was a problem already in WoL with mech. There are actually good mech timings you can pull off after a 1 rax expand into mech. Timings that MKP, Byun and more have hit with mech builds. Most common is the 1 rax expand into 3 fact siege tank marine hellion push. The problem is that 1 rax expand into tech is vulnerable to builds like 4 gate blink. It is really really hard to defend it as it can hit when you can have only one siege tank. Even if you have 2 tanks they can still just blink on top of it. I actually praised Blizzard for introducing the mine. I thought they had made a clever analysis and found this problem. Then they nerfed the mine and introduced the MsC in its current shape making blink allins even stronger T_T. A huge reason why you see bio is that 1 rax expand into 3 rax double gas is reasonable safe to allins, including the blink allin. They need to redesign the widow mine so that its splash damage is something to fear. It should be costly to recklessly blink into 3-4 mines. Make it do 125 splash damage and lower its supply to 1. Remove ability to hit air. Then you could go 1 rax expand into mines and have a reasonable chance to defend blink allins. | ||
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HollowLord
United States3862 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:22 SolidMoose wrote: I find it shocking in only two patches Blizzard went from saving the game to beginning its damnation. Buffing fungal at all in the current state of mind people have about fungal is terrible. Nobody likes fungal. Nobody. Caduceus is kind of understandable, but now there's just no good way to transition into actually getting it until after splash has already been in play for awhile. By the time it comes around, it won't have much of an impact. Blink research I don't understand at all, and I personally hate blink all ins. Widow Mine is useless now if it can't even stop drops. I like fungal. | ||
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Crawdad
614 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:22 SolidMoose wrote: Widow Mine is useless now if it can't even stop drops. To be fair, most people didn't defend positions with a single WM. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
I'm sure Protoss could figure out 3gate pressure off 1gate FE that hits before 1rax FE can complete siege mode for example (and widow mines aren't that big of a deal with hallucinated zealots and the MsC), and it's also possible to just bulldog (as in do a gateway timing with a warp prism) most mech builds too. Mech in early game just kinda feels very weak defensively both in WoL and HotS (in no small part due to the inferior damage of the siege tank), and i have no idea how that can be fixed short of silly openings like siege expand. | ||
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Tomasy
Poland80 Posts
They still have no clue what breaks mech. | ||
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Sailincieri
Poland83 Posts
Yeah, but you have no idea what you're talking about  | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:22 Evangelist wrote: I also reckon they'll redesign fungal before this is over. I imagine that's what's going on. Instead of a spell that only hits by blind chance, but wins you the game when it does, they're turning this into a spell that's easier to use, but weaker. It's just speculation though. | ||
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HollowLord
United States3862 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:27 Sailincieri wrote: Yeah, but you have no idea what you're talking about This is true. | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:27 Tomasy wrote: LOL mech opener vs toss now is even more retarded as you cannot oneshot stalkers and zealots with mines . They still have no clue what breaks mech. Everything? | ||
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SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
well i shouldnt start getting involved in this because its still changing way too much... its a waste of energy. | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:21 Sailincieri wrote: Im totally confused. First Blizz says "we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army." - great idea, its what players wanted. Nerf spells that totally destroys micro and makes game boring to watch and play. And now this big buff? And the reason: "We feel the initial nerfs to Fungal Growth were too much especially in ZvZ". Realy?! How fungal can be too weak in ZvZ? Its mirror... It's because fungals were the only true counter to mass muta in zvz. The old fungal range/speed made it nearly impossible to hit mutas if they were paying attention. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won. This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched. Of course there are exceptions, and things may really be 'broken' like infestor/broodlord, but those will get sorted out regardless of what you say or feel. Whether it be through patches, players, or maps. It's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out the solution for quite a while. I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was close enough to balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose, and to not concern themselves so much with balance. I'd also like to add that it's so detrimental to the community to have the mindset of imbalance. TotalBiscuit says it well here youtube.com/watch?v=cVLbHJeihGg&t=4m56s | ||
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Alex1Sun
494 Posts
Now widow mine can be safely reduced to 1 supply. Waiting for it in the next patch. As for fungal, I like that it is fast and long range, but I would rather see its damage reduced. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10372 Posts
simply nerf blink time, i love it! it used to be 110 but now it's 170 haha Mech openings are so much easier now!!! fungal range -- I guess it's part of the direction to make things less hard counter-y? Perhaps instead of having HT and Ghost be a counter to Infestors, which would mean you're basically hoping to kill enough infestors or burn enough mana before a fight, they'll balance the game around so that HT/Ghost vs Infestor is more of a battle than a chore whether the HT/Ghost does enough, with the infestors hoping they have enough spells left. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:30 Zelniq wrote: It pisses me off to no end that people are so obsessed with this thing they call 'balance.' The hard truth is, most of the time you or the player you like didn't lose because the game is broken. In general, the player who played better won. This is hard thing to accept for people, it's human nature to react this way, especially in a game that's constantly being patched. And it's often hard / even impossible to be aware of the reasons why you lost, like when everyone like IdrA and other zergs felt when every protoss won with mass void ray/colossus..the knowledge just wasn't there of how to play vs that, or how to even play pvz. expansion timings, unit compositions, and the infestor was the key to beating this..not roach/hydra/corruptor like everyone did. And how long was this a problem? The pros couldn't figure out a solution for quite a while. I just wish fans/players would adopt more of the attitude that BW players/fans did...just appreciating good play or who played better, and also that the game was balanced and it was up to the players and the map makers to solve any problems that arose. I guess most of our problems would be gone if we actually did have a solid game foundation that was balanced and designed in a reasonable way. Like BW was ... | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
i still feel that no amount of number tweaking will make widow mines cool, their concept is just flawed im fine with blink research time increase, i didnt have that many problems with blink allins myself, and neither used them a lot, but if they were indeed overpowered this should easily fix it without affecting any other aspects of the game too much im not too happy about fungal missile speed increase, the range buff is fine but missile should stay slow imho all in all a very minor numbers tweaking patch, im hoping for some bigger patches to come up, especially for terran, toss air could take a slight nerf as well still the beta continues to move in the right direction, hopefully it stays like this | ||
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