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On December 19 2012 08:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:02 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 07:57 Plansix wrote:On December 19 2012 07:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote:
It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal.
Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away.
This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think.
Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course.
Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink.
I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable.
BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared.
But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. It would be a rational post if not for the fact that the iteration was not even tested substantially. It takes a while to develop good skills to aim spells like that. How long did Zergs have to get used to the new Fungal? We saw in WoL that as time went people got progressively better at using units and skill despite the fact that they did not change. Even when Fungal and Infestor oriented play was beginning it was no where near as good as it is today. I don't see how such a powerful spell, considering its function, was not given more time so as to probe what its actual potential could be. Maybe it was hard to completely deny any hope for retreat for your opponent with the new Fungal, but that was the raging topic in WoL to begin with. It should not be an easy task to completely deny all retreat. Now it's easier to deny that. When we are talking about engaging the Zerg army, now it becomes, potentially, even harder than it ever was in WoL. To be fair to zergs, I was able to dodge fungles with phoenixes that were at a dead stop. I saw the infestor waddling up and moved them away. I think the zerg got two of the 8 had with the fungle. I think the only way he could have hit the majority of them was if I wasn't looking at the screen. That's what I mean. The spell went from a no skill guaranteed hit to a skill based judgement call. Just because you moved your Pheonixes out of the way does not mean we have to assume the Zerg did his best at attempting to Fungal them. He probably just pressed "F" and clicked on your Pheonixes without even thinking. Wouldn't it take more skill for the spell user to accept the fact that you can see his units and that his intent is painfully obvious? Woe unto us if Zergs were to use creativity once in a while when approaching an engagement. I think you missed the part of my story where my phoenixes were not moving!!! How is he supposted to make a judgment call when the units isn't moving? It can go any direction it wants and it did. I don't like fungle, but it was really not at all useful unless the units were not being controled any way.
If you are not sure to land a fungal then mb you should not use it. The problem with fungal was that a fungal always hit what you targeted and that it then was chain fungaled to death.
It should not be a god-given right for zergs to hit phoenixes or whatever at 8-10 range.
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So now window mines will be less useful against Protoss. Zealots and stalkers no longer dies to this, how does a factory opening into mech work against early protoss aggression now? Are we supposed to mass infantry and bunker up before going factory? This is a setback to TvP mech.
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United States7166 Posts
This is silly.
Most of the feelings people are having to the Infestor buffs is because of the recent strength of the Infestor. I guarantee that if the previous beta patch that had the slow range 8 missile fungal had instead been a retail patch that had been in effect for months and everyone spectated tournaments where Fungals constantly whiffed units, and speedy units running away didn't get hit by Fungals, the reaction would be completely different. People would be praising it. Before this patch, many times the only way you could hit certain units with Fungal was if the opponent wasn't paying any attention.
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On December 19 2012 07:38 Aquila- wrote:
So to sum up Terran in HotS:
- Terran gets a shitty mine that cannot detect and doesnt even kill a single Zealot.
- A Hellion that is biological but doesnt benefit from bio upgrades but gets bonus damage from Archons.
- Reapers that destroyed the best mirror matchup in the game.
- A medivac upgrade that requires a fucking fusion core.
- Mech TvP is still utter trash.
While other races ge amazing things like the Viper.
Rofl.
- HSM splash damage removed
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I think even the blink-obs opening also died. With that 30s lol.
And in comparison on how they nerf stim in WoL. Blink needs micro and good targeting to actually pay-off unlike the un-nerfed stim that when you're done researching , just stim and go up the natural ramp and kill everything by a-move.
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On December 19 2012 07:09 RockIronrod wrote:
Man, people just won't be happy unless fungal is useless actually interesting/fun to watch.
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On December 19 2012 08:03 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 07:58 InVerno wrote:
10 is the center of the aoe, but fungal can hit at 12 too because of 2 aoe radius.
So basically it's a siege tank without siege mode, with the 2x of the splash damage, 1psi less, moves cloacked and faster and every unit hitted slowly dies due to chain fungal. Eh ah, got a very strong anti air too.
At the cost of a bit gas more than a tank. Seems legit. If 10 is the center of the AoE, doesn't that make it 11 range? I assume that with 2 radius it would hit from 9 to 11 range.
You're thinking of a diameter. It's a moot point, anyway, unless it's seriously being suggested that hitting one unit with the edge of a relatively slow missile-deployed AoE "makes it basically 12 range". It's 10 range with an AoE radius of 2.
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I play from NZ.. 15 speed fungal is effectively instant. how the hell am I going to deal with 10 range virtually instant spell :S
On a non whining note.. I think Fungal's functionality needs to be split up into 2 spells, or the root changed to a 50% slow. Its just impossible to balance it as it currently is in my opinion.
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United States3862 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:13 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 07:59 Zelniq wrote:On December 19 2012 07:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote:
It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal.
Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away.
This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think.
Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course.
Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink.
I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable.
BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared.
But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. It would be a rational post if not for the fact that the iteration was not even tested substantially. It takes a while to develop good skills to aim spells like that. How long did Zergs have to get used to the new Fungal? We saw in WoL that as time went people got progressively better at using units and skill despite the fact that they did not change. Even when Fungal and Infestor oriented play was beginning it was no where near as good as it is today. I don't see how such a powerful spell, considering its function, was not given more time so as to probe what its actual potential could be. Maybe it was hard to completely deny any hope for retreat for your opponent with the new Fungal, but that was the raging topic in WoL to begin with. It should not be an easy task to completely deny all retreat. Now it's easier to deny that. When we are talking about engaging the Zerg army, now it becomes, potentially, even harder than it ever was in WoL. If you read my post/understand it, y ou should realize the new Hots fungal is still worse than the current WoL range 8 Instant Fungal. Skill or not, there is also luck and then also the problem of retreating units as I described earlier. It's no question that the new fungal is weaker. The benefit of having a little extra range vs units that arent moving is nothing compared to the nerf of not being able to fungal anything that moves as effectively as PERFECT instant fungals provided. You're not accounting for the fact that you can chain-fungal from 2 more range than in WoL. Changing it to a projectile did not change this. This is not an insigificant difference, and chain fungaling is now stronger in HotS than WoL. Sorry for chain-responding to you, I just think your argument here has a lot of flaws.
Hate to butt in but it's 1 more range than it was in WoL, not 2. Right now in WoL it's 9.
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Projectile speeds are the same as ground speeds, right? So speed 15 fungal projectile is a bit more than 3.5 times as fast as a hellion?
So in order to catch hellions that are running away with a max-range fungal, you need to cast it when the hellions are at... range 7 and 1/6 (aka 7.167, aka 43/6). This requires pretty precise timing, but I'm assuming Zerg players will learn it pretty quickly. At least once it stabilizes.
On the flip side, if enemy units are coming towards you, you can get them further away (kinda). This makes fungals better defensively than offensively, which I think is a good thing.
Does anyone know EMP's projectile speed, for comparison?
Overall I think I like the change.
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On December 19 2012 08:16 HollowLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:13 iEchoic wrote:On December 19 2012 07:59 Zelniq wrote:On December 19 2012 07:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote:
It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal.
Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away.
This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think.
Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course.
Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink.
I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable.
BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared.
But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. It would be a rational post if not for the fact that the iteration was not even tested substantially. It takes a while to develop good skills to aim spells like that. How long did Zergs have to get used to the new Fungal? We saw in WoL that as time went people got progressively better at using units and skill despite the fact that they did not change. Even when Fungal and Infestor oriented play was beginning it was no where near as good as it is today. I don't see how such a powerful spell, considering its function, was not given more time so as to probe what its actual potential could be. Maybe it was hard to completely deny any hope for retreat for your opponent with the new Fungal, but that was the raging topic in WoL to begin with. It should not be an easy task to completely deny all retreat. Now it's easier to deny that. When we are talking about engaging the Zerg army, now it becomes, potentially, even harder than it ever was in WoL. If you read my post/understand it, y ou should realize the new Hots fungal is still worse than the current WoL range 8 Instant Fungal. Skill or not, there is also luck and then also the problem of retreating units as I described earlier. It's no question that the new fungal is weaker. The benefit of having a little extra range vs units that arent moving is nothing compared to the nerf of not being able to fungal anything that moves as effectively as PERFECT instant fungals provided. You're not accounting for the fact that you can chain-fungal from 2 more range than in WoL. Changing it to a projectile did not change this. This is not an insigificant difference, and chain fungaling is now stronger in HotS than WoL. Sorry for chain-responding to you, I just think your argument here has a lot of flaws. Hate to butt in but it's 1 more range than it was in WoL, not 2. Right now in WoL it's 9.
i thought the recent patch nerfed it for WOL to 8? So the current range is 8 right?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Infestor
go to patch notes
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United States3862 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:18 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2012 08:16 HollowLord wrote:On December 19 2012 08:13 iEchoic wrote:On December 19 2012 07:59 Zelniq wrote:On December 19 2012 07:54 BeyondCtrL wrote:On December 19 2012 07:44 Zelniq wrote:
It may sound outrageous, especially for those who haven't been able to play the beta... I know I'd feel the same way before I'd gotten a chance to try out the change from Instant Fungal to Missile. But after I tried it, I was surprised how much of a nerf it was. Before you'd always land perfect fungals on groups of units, now many times you'll miss units completely vs moving units, and fast ones are very tough to fungal.
Also, remember that ofc the further the target is, the harder it is to Fungal it. And the more time they have to run away.
This is actually a bigger deal than you'd think.
Giving the missile a move speed effectively reduces the max range that you can actually hit anything. Many times the times you want to use Fungal the most is vs units that are retreating, and before today's patch, Fungaling stalkers that were just running away (not even Blinking) was effectively as if you shot an Instant Fungal of like range 6 (6's just a guess), because they'd have to had been within 6 range of your Infestor at the time you tried to Fungal. Because by the time the projectile got to where you targeted at the max range of 8, they'd be well out of range of course.
Faster retreating units like stimmed bio/hellions/phoenixes/mutas would be even more extreme, meaning that they'd have to be even closer to your infestors to be Fungaled or they'd be out of range. This is not even factoring in how with a missile, they can move in other directions or dodge and make it even harder. And then there's Blink.
I'd wait to try it out before overreacting, these changes might be reasonable.
BTW, for an extreme example: Imagine if Fungal had the same missile speed but a max range of 20. You'd never actually be able to Fungal anything moving from a distance of 20, the enemy would easily just dodge away long beforehand. This is just to illustrate that a max range of a moving missile is so different from instant missiles/spells that it should not be compared.
But it IS constantly compared with other things that are instant range, shocking/enraging nerds everywhere when they just see that "range 10" number in the patch notes. It would be a rational post if not for the fact that the iteration was not even tested substantially. It takes a while to develop good skills to aim spells like that. How long did Zergs have to get used to the new Fungal? We saw in WoL that as time went people got progressively better at using units and skill despite the fact that they did not change. Even when Fungal and Infestor oriented play was beginning it was no where near as good as it is today. I don't see how such a powerful spell, considering its function, was not given more time so as to probe what its actual potential could be. Maybe it was hard to completely deny any hope for retreat for your opponent with the new Fungal, but that was the raging topic in WoL to begin with. It should not be an easy task to completely deny all retreat. Now it's easier to deny that. When we are talking about engaging the Zerg army, now it becomes, potentially, even harder than it ever was in WoL. If you read my post/understand it, y ou should realize the new Hots fungal is still worse than the current WoL range 8 Instant Fungal. Skill or not, there is also luck and then also the problem of retreating units as I described earlier. It's no question that the new fungal is weaker. The benefit of having a little extra range vs units that arent moving is nothing compared to the nerf of not being able to fungal anything that moves as effectively as PERFECT instant fungals provided. You're not accounting for the fact that you can chain-fungal from 2 more range than in WoL. Changing it to a projectile did not change this. This is not an insigificant difference, and chain fungaling is now stronger in HotS than WoL. Sorry for chain-responding to you, I just think your argument here has a lot of flaws. Hate to butt in but it's 1 more range than it was in WoL, not 2. Right now in WoL it's 9. i thought the recent patch nerfed it for WOL to 8? So the current range is 8 right?
Oh, I don't know, I only play Hots now. I could be wrong. If so my bad.
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Italy12246 Posts
On December 19 2012 08:13 Zelniq wrote:
This is silly.
Most of the feelings people are having to the Infestor buffs is because of the recent strength of the Infestor. I guarantee that if the previous beta patch that had the slow range 8 missile fungal had instead been a retail patch that had been in effect for months and everyone spectated tournaments where Fungals constantly whiffed units, and speedy units running away didn't get hit by Fungals, the reaction would be completely different. People would be praising it. Before this patch, many times the only way you could hit certain units with Fungal was if the opponent wasn't paying any attention.
While that's true, it's also true that Fungal is an extremely annoying mechanic at the very least, and it seems a bit unnecessary to buff it when Zerg has other midgame options now.
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On December 19 2012 08:18 HamsterBob wrote:
Does anyone know EMP's projectile speed, for comparison?
Speed 30. In other words, the new Fungal is half as fast as EMP.
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On December 19 2012 08:13 Zelniq wrote:
This is silly.
Most of the feelings people are having to the Infestor buffs is because of the recent strength of the Infestor. I guarantee that if the previous beta patch that had the slow range 8 missile fungal had instead been a retail patch that had been in effect for months and everyone spectated tournaments where Fungals constantly whiffed units, and speedy units running away didn't get hit by Fungals, the reaction would be completely different. People would be praising it. Before this patch, many times the only way you could hit certain units with Fungal was if the opponent wasn't paying any attention.
Or when good Zergs would be hitting those hard to hit units with great skill and aim people would actually mean it when they scream, "SICK FUNGAL!" or, "Great Fungals! Wow did you see that?". Instead of wanting to drag your balls through a field of broken glass every time you saw a no-skill Fungal you would be amazed at the skill and timing required to get one off. It goes from a spell at being groaned at to at a skill being cheered at.
This change should have been postponed for another few weeks, rather than so quick and abrupt.
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If these updates are indicative of anything, it's that there will be a change in a week. Hopefully, for the better
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The infestor has damaged the evolution of the zergs greatly and nerfing the infestor will show this . I think it will be a few rough months for zergs but the infestors needs to stay nerfed and i really hope blizzard realizes this soon.
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On December 19 2012 08:18 HamsterBob wrote:
Projectile speeds are the same as ground speeds, right? So speed 15 fungal projectile is a bit more than 3.5 times as fast as a hellion?
So in order to catch hellions that are running away with a max-range fungal, you need to cast it when the hellions are at... range 7 and 1/6 (aka 7.167, aka 43/6). This requires pretty precise timing, but I'm assuming Zerg players will learn it pretty quickly. At least once it stabilizes.
On the flip side, if enemy units are coming towards you, you can get them further away (kinda). This makes fungals better defensively than offensively, which I think is a good thing.
Does anyone know EMP's projectile speed, for comparison?
Overall I think I like the change.
As noted earlier, EMP's missile speed is 30.
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Im totally confused.
First Blizz says "we’ve heavily nerfed the Infestor to make it less core to the Zerg army." - great idea, its what players wanted. Nerf spells that totally destroys micro and makes game boring to watch and play.
And now this big buff? And the reason: "We feel the initial nerfs to Fungal Growth were too much especially in ZvZ".
Realy?! How fungal can be too weak in ZvZ? Its mirror...
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EPT
