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Masters Zerg here! (WoL)
I've played a few ZvTs since the patch and was wondering what people were doing to deal with quick reapers? The impression I'm getting is that you almost have to go roaches to deal with it. Once they have 4 reapers they can start taking on single queens, and with basic pull-back micro they don't lose any reapers. The health regen is also very strong.
Anybody have thoughts on this? I can think of the following responses to early reaper play in ZvT:
Lings
- speed won't be out before reapers get there (obviously), reapers seeing up cliffs makes it tough to get them even with speedlings especially on certain maps
Extra Queens
- probably not a bad idea, but reapers are pretty quick now, so I've had trouble locking them down with queens
Roaches
- seem like they shut it down pretty well, but I don't like being forced down this tech path, especially so early
Spine Crawlers
- I haven't tried this, but I imagine it would be hard to cover all the angles cost-effectively with spines
Has anybody had success with a gasless response? Is there anything else that seems to work? I'd love to hear from some Masters+ players on this.
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The lag is so terrible on the beta-server you can't even micro reapers, so what.
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Your best bet is probably to just get more queens, I know there are zvt builds where you get a lot of queens earlier to defend vs early aggression, I assume it would be similar to that, but the queens potentially come out a bit faster.
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Couldnt play yet, but I think making more queen and overlord spread might be the most cost-effective answer
I dont see any number or reapers breaking through 2 queens at each base anytime soon
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You need roaches. In general in zvt you have to go roaches. Hellbats are to strong vs ling/bane and you will get obliterated if you don't go roaches if he has hellbats. So in general you should be going roaches anyway and while waiting for them keep 3 queens together since I imagine you are doing the standard 4 queen opener?
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On December 07 2012 14:16 blade55555 wrote:
You need roaches. In general in zvt you have to go roaches. Hellbats are to strong vs ling/bane and you will get obliterated if you don't go roaches if he has hellbats. So in general you should be going roaches anyway and while waiting for them keep 3 queens together since I imagine you are doing the standard 4 queen opener?
ok thanks i was hoping somebody like you would drop by <3
This is kind of what I figured. What timing are you getting your gas? 17 or wat? How many roaches do you make? GAH I FEEL SO LOST
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Welcome to 5 rax reaper all over again. If you didn't play the first beta, it went something like: Play someone with decent micro -> try to make roaches -> critical mass of reaper achieved -> leave the game. There is a reason they got nerfed into the ground the first time. I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard keeps trying the same boring things over and over when they clearly have reasons they didnt/dont work. Reaper speed ZvT/TvT, Fungal slow projectile (ZvZ).
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On December 07 2012 14:20 clever_us wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 14:16 blade55555 wrote:
You need roaches. In general in zvt you have to go roaches. Hellbats are to strong vs ling/bane and you will get obliterated if you don't go roaches if he has hellbats. So in general you should be going roaches anyway and while waiting for them keep 3 queens together since I imagine you are doing the standard 4 queen opener? ok thanks i was hoping somebody like you would drop by <3 This is kind of what I figured. What timing are you getting your gas? 17 or wat? How many roaches do you make? GAH I FEEL SO LOST
I start my 1st gas as soon as I start my 3rd/4'th queen. I find this to be the best timing and then I get a roach warren about the time I start mining the gas. I get my 2nd gas when my roach warren finishes and take a third unless he is doing some sort of funky 1 base play or something.
So far this timing has worked great for me and haven't had any issues... yet 
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If they go for 4 early reapers, remember they won't be going for economy. You can afford to get a slower third and more queens. Early roaches aren't honestly that big of a deal since to get 4 reapers quickly that means a delayed factory and stim. If they're massing reapers obviously you need to make some damn roaches.
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On December 07 2012 14:20 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
Welcome to 5 rax reaper all over again. If you didn't play the first beta, it went something like: Play someone with decent micro -> try to make roaches -> critical mass of reaper achieved -> leave the game. There is a reason they got nerfed into the ground the first time. I can't for the life of me understand why Blizzard keeps trying the same boring things over and over when they clearly have reasons they didnt/dont work.
That was before 5-range Queens, 4-range Roaches, and when Reapers still had their D8 charges.
I would imagine that Blizz is going to nerf Reapers, but mostly for TvT's sake.
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Without D8 charges spinecrawlers may work, maybe one on each end of the mineral line and then queen for anything else. This is a large investment, but if they are rushing for early reapers they are not going to be playing eco so it shouldn't effect you to much. However, I think Blades suggestion is probably best, with roach/hydra/viper being the 'standard' build in ZvT, going roaches is probably easiest. However, my concern with this is that with the new medivacs M/M/M should be extremely easy to transition into, and doesn't M/M/M destroy roach balls?
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Spines Crawlers would be a good way if you want to avoid roaches, because speedlings can deal with reapers well once they are out. Also a couple of extra queens would be good.
The fact is, if they open reaper they are sacrificing quite a bit of economy to make them, so making a few extra queens and spines isn't going to be a big deal while waiting for ling speed. I also believe this is why Blizzard stopped reapers from doing extra damage to buildings.
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I would say that Spine Crawlers are the way to go ... always ... since you dont "waste" larvae on Lings that will be killed and have to be replaced by spending even more larvae on the next batch and they are useful later on as well ... AND you shouldnt forget that tightly placed Spine Crawlers can block units from passing through in HotS, so they are the perfect choice to close of paths behind minerals while giving defense.
In addition to the Spine Crawlers you could have a few extra Queens and dont go fusion about those Creep Tumors early on to have the energy for some healing.
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Yeah... Reapers healing ability is pretty strong, but not exactly overpowered. Try not to focus on economy, build a lot of queens and zerglings for surrounds and go roaches. The usual follow-up to reapers is mech, since terran will be wasting so much barracks time with reapers. If the terran does go bio, they won't have upgrades very soon, since reapers are very gas intensive.
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queen will neglect the first reaper doing too much dmg, if your control with queen is decent u lose like 2 drones at worst case, then u just go for the normal roach pressure like zergs did in wol and reapers are shut down ~_~ at least thats whats happened on master / gm level with the new patch
if u wanna do roachless u gotta put out more queens, knowing were the reapers come from is key so overlord spread is important, i prefer the roachless thing thou cuz it lets u transition better / faster into the normal speedling muta stuff which is way more fun than roaches
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queen roach spine all beat reaper, if your opponent make harras unit you must make defense, same like you build queens and spores versus banshee.
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i think you should place overlords at cliffs where reapers might jump in, and add more queens (if you aren't doing queen opening). just let the queens stay at the mineral line when they are not placing creep tumors. i think you can afford a spine or 2 if the terran commits alot to reapers, or delays his expansion to get reapers.
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I defend them like I defended them WoL release, spine queen combo and save up energy for transfuses. I also skip ling speed for super fast lair. But of course roaches are the much easier to control choice.
But I really like, the fast Lair and energy save up, because you can spread your creep really fast afterwards. And maybe thrown in a little burrowed ling trap, if you feel like being evil.
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On December 08 2012 01:10 FeyFey wrote:
I defend them like I defended them WoL release, spine queen combo and save up energy for transfuses. I also skip ling speed for super fast lair. But of course roaches are the much easier to control choice.
But I really like, the fast Lair and energy save up, because you can spread your creep really fast afterwards. And maybe thrown in a little burrowed ling trap, if you feel like being evil.
yup going fast muta is going idea vs reapers, since they are spending gas on reaper, there upgrades, marine production will be delayed, so you can keep them on 2base longer, while you macro up huge army of your choice on on fast 3 and 4 base(you build 3 and 4 pretty much same time).
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Either get 6 Queens for defense or a Roach Warren for counter attack, if they get 5+ Reapers off 2 Barracks they are going to have difficulty defending.
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i like the idea of gasless queens + spines into mutas much more than the roach idea. the reaper will almost always scout the roach warren and since they already have teclabs on the rax they just build a bunker with 2 marauder in it and be fine.
1 spine per base + 6 queens should be enough if they really commit to reaper.
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Masters terran here (WOL and HOTS). I do open sometimes into speed reapers and have trouble doing damage vs a bigger number of queens. Sure, roaches will make me pull back, but I think it is too big of an investment for the zerg unless he wants to do a counterpush. If you just do 3 queens more (so 6), you will be safe against any number of reapers that can come at you in early game. As a plus, you will be safe from banshee harrass and have more creep spread. Fast lings can also do a quick catch, and would rate them 2-nd as my least favorite unit to deal with when i am using reapers. A thing to note is a single spine on each base will slow the reapers down a ton, as they are not the reapers from wol when dealing with buildings.
One negative consequence for terran from going mass reaper in early game is very delayed tech as reapers are objectively high gas maintenance. You can almost bet the terran is going to do 3cc fairly soon, and punish him with roach ling or even roach ling bling. If you micro correctly, the 3 to 4 widow mines he has are not going to save him, nor the single banshee. Even if you can't kill him, you are going to prevent him mine from his natural, so I think it is worth it.
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huu pretty surprised, in the early wol days the transition from mass reaper was like 8 rax marines with slow tech,
but not some kind of fast factoryplay. You can expand pretty well with reapers aswell as adding more rax,
though playing bio seems more reasonable to me. But this is only theorycraft, maybe things changed.
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Slow lings and drones will do the job.
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EPT
