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On December 05 2012 03:05 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:46 Babru wrote:On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up already, but...
I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine.
What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play altogether. Why these super hard counters? Blizzard should make it so that more units are acceptable vs most stuff, not really good or really terrible depening on things you might not even be able to scout. I got an idea just now as i thought about it, the phoenix anti-air is so awful (so easy to use and even looks real ugly the way they autoshoot while flying), i would like it much more if protoss got an anti-air tower in addition to the cannon, which would be the same size and mb cost half the price, and do decent dmg. Keep the phoenix but remove its awfull autoshoot while rightclick move command abillity. This way phoenix could still be usefull vs mutalisk but not shut them down alltogether, and p could dump overmins into these anti-air towers, and more importantly p would be able to deal with mutalisk play in an efficient way without being forced to open stargate. Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros? Are you asking Blizzard to balance the game around the problems of plat./diamond/masters level zerg? Watch how pros handle it. Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play, and thank god that it's not. If you want to deal with a hard phoenix counter you build infestors and fungal the phoenix and kill them with your mutas, or you just transition to tier 3. Thus zerg has a counter to the counter; I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed.
"I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed". I dont think everyone, including some of the very best protosses, agree with you.
"Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros?". When talking about balance the only level that is relevant is the highest one.
"Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play". Mutalisk harassment with a potentiall followup (given the right circumstances) by going into straight brute force mutalisk balls together with lings/banelings on the ground is, in contradiction to what you claim, very viable. If there wasnt a threat of phoenix i would think a lot more zergs would open straight into spire builds more often.
In any case, like i wrote in my post, i dont like the phoenix - muta dynamic.
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On December 05 2012 03:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:53 Babru wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Existor wrote:Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play alltogether. Why these super hard counters? Zerg can bring corruptors with mutalisks Yea, that is also why we are seing all zergs going muta, then adding a lot of corruptos once the p counters z with phoenix and then the z keeps harassing with mass muta + corruptors. Oh w8, that never happens. Its not effecient, and when z has a lot of corruptors out to deal with phoenix the timing window for when mutalisk should have done dmg has somewhat already passed. My post also was about how p could deal with mutas without relying on phoenix. Im saying i would prefer it if p wouldnt have to rely on phoenix vs muta. Obv there are other ways to deal with it (like blinkstalkers together with cannons), but protosses are saying those methods arent efficient enough. Sen did it agaisnt protoss in GSL all the time. He went directly to spire and used the corruptors as support, even vs stargate openings. This was before the era of the 12-14 minute 200/200 roach push that killed every stargate opener that was worth talking about. After that, mutas have been overshadowed by fungle and the late game death army.
I know Sen had some good zvp success lately in big evens, i did not see any of the games though. Did he perhaps play mass muta + corruptor in any of his games (given that the p went phoenix)?
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On December 05 2012 03:25 Babru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:03 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2012 02:53 Babru wrote:On December 05 2012 02:49 Existor wrote:Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play alltogether. Why these super hard counters? Zerg can bring corruptors with mutalisks Yea, that is also why we are seing all zergs going muta, then adding a lot of corruptos once the p counters z with phoenix and then the z keeps harassing with mass muta + corruptors. Oh w8, that never happens. Its not effecient, and when z has a lot of corruptors out to deal with phoenix the timing window for when mutalisk should have done dmg has somewhat already passed. My post also was about how p could deal with mutas without relying on phoenix. Im saying i would prefer it if p wouldnt have to rely on phoenix vs muta. Obv there are other ways to deal with it (like blinkstalkers together with cannons), but protosses are saying those methods arent efficient enough. Sen did it agaisnt protoss in GSL all the time. He went directly to spire and used the corruptors as support, even vs stargate openings. This was before the era of the 12-14 minute 200/200 roach push that killed every stargate opener that was worth talking about. After that, mutas have been overshadowed by fungle and the late game death army. I know Sen had some good zvp success lately in big evens, i did not see any of the games though. Did he perhaps play mass muta + corruptor in any of his games (given that the p went phoenix)?
He used them as support for the mutas so they could fall back when the protoss tried to engage with phoenixs and forced horrible trades with the protoss. The game never got to 200/200. It was shockingly effective and he was able to keep lings is reserve for when the protoss moved out. He used it mostly on TalDarim, which is a great map for mutas, but some other maps as well.
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On December 05 2012 03:21 Babru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:05 The_Darkness wrote:On December 05 2012 02:46 Babru wrote:On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up already, but...
I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine.
What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play altogether. Why these super hard counters? Blizzard should make it so that more units are acceptable vs most stuff, not really good or really terrible depening on things you might not even be able to scout. I got an idea just now as i thought about it, the phoenix anti-air is so awful (so easy to use and even looks real ugly the way they autoshoot while flying), i would like it much more if protoss got an anti-air tower in addition to the cannon, which would be the same size and mb cost half the price, and do decent dmg. Keep the phoenix but remove its awfull autoshoot while rightclick move command abillity. This way phoenix could still be usefull vs mutalisk but not shut them down alltogether, and p could dump overmins into these anti-air towers, and more importantly p would be able to deal with mutalisk play in an efficient way without being forced to open stargate. Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros? Are you asking Blizzard to balance the game around the problems of plat./diamond/masters level zerg? Watch how pros handle it. Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play, and thank god that it's not. If you want to deal with a hard phoenix counter you build infestors and fungal the phoenix and kill them with your mutas, or you just transition to tier 3. Thus zerg has a counter to the counter; I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed. "I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed". I dont think everyone, including some of the very best protosses, agree with you. "Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros?". When talking about balance the only level that is relevant is the highest one. "Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play". Mutalisk harassment with a potentiall followup (given the right circumstances) by going into straight brute force mutalisk balls together with lings/banelings on the ground is, in contradiction to what you claim, very viable. If there wasnt a threat of phoenix i would think a lot more zergs would open straight into spire builds more often. In any case, like i wrote in my post, i dont like the phoenix - muta dynamic.
Again, which pros are having trouble against this build since we're talking about the highest levels of play? Korean protosses are not struggling against muta at all so why did you write "What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate"? Try doing what they're doing now. Watch Creator or Hero play; they're got it figured out. A little acceleration might empower mutas in HoTS but MSC will give Protoss more options not to have to engage in a base race with mutas. I take everything I just said back: Since you probably can tell, from DK's post alone, exactly what changes will be made to mutas and exactly what impact that will have on the game (and have determined that Protoss will now have no idea how to deal with mutas even though they have figured out how to defend against mutas in WOL even without stargate), I think you should save Blizzard the trouble of making the change and then having to undo it by writing DK a letter explaining how Protoss, even though the build is fairly easily dealt iwth now (unless the protoss is caught completely off guard), will not be able to deal with mutas because of the to be determined acceleration or speed or whatever boost that they might give to mutas.
In all seriousness, zergs can beat protoss going muta ling bane but most of the time Protoss (by Protoss I mean top tier Protoss) can defend that rather easily and I would guess, if someone complied stats, that the build is something like 60-40 at worst Protoss favored, which means the build hardly is a problem from the P prospective. If they do some insane buff then it may become a problem, but it's obviously way too early to tell and it's not currently a problem so why worry about it at all?
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Pumped! Infestor nerf is most important to get right!
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On December 05 2012 01:52 furo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 01:46 SpikeStarcraft wrote:
this balance patch convinces me to wait for hots since i dont feel like playing wol in the current state anyhow.
where can i get a beta key? perorder from amazon.de at least i got mine that way you dont need to buy the game if you dont want to, you can still cancel.
awesome, i didnt know they did that.
just ordered and looking forward to playing the beta for half a year 
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Canada11385 Posts
Not a big fan of combining mech and air upgrades. One of the uniquenesses of mech play is that you committed to it and it was actually a significant investment to go mass air. The transition to air has already been eased by the medic -->> medivac switch combined with Reactors. Combining mech and air upgrades? meh.
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On December 05 2012 03:42 The_Darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:21 Babru wrote:On December 05 2012 03:05 The_Darkness wrote:On December 05 2012 02:46 Babru wrote:On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up already, but...
I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine.
What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play altogether. Why these super hard counters? Blizzard should make it so that more units are acceptable vs most stuff, not really good or really terrible depening on things you might not even be able to scout. I got an idea just now as i thought about it, the phoenix anti-air is so awful (so easy to use and even looks real ugly the way they autoshoot while flying), i would like it much more if protoss got an anti-air tower in addition to the cannon, which would be the same size and mb cost half the price, and do decent dmg. Keep the phoenix but remove its awfull autoshoot while rightclick move command abillity. This way phoenix could still be usefull vs mutalisk but not shut them down alltogether, and p could dump overmins into these anti-air towers, and more importantly p would be able to deal with mutalisk play in an efficient way without being forced to open stargate. Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros? Are you asking Blizzard to balance the game around the problems of plat./diamond/masters level zerg? Watch how pros handle it. Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play, and thank god that it's not. If you want to deal with a hard phoenix counter you build infestors and fungal the phoenix and kill them with your mutas, or you just transition to tier 3. Thus zerg has a counter to the counter; I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed. "I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed". I dont think everyone, including some of the very best protosses, agree with you. "Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros?". When talking about balance the only level that is relevant is the highest one. "Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play". Mutalisk harassment with a potentiall followup (given the right circumstances) by going into straight brute force mutalisk balls together with lings/banelings on the ground is, in contradiction to what you claim, very viable. If there wasnt a threat of phoenix i would think a lot more zergs would open straight into spire builds more often. In any case, like i wrote in my post, i dont like the phoenix - muta dynamic. Again, which pros are having trouble against this build since we're talking about the highest levels of play? Korean protosses are not struggling against muta at all so why did you write "What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate"? Try doing what they're doing now. Watch Creator or Hero play; they're got it figured out. A little acceleration might empower mutas in HoTS but MSC will give Protoss more options not to have to engage in a base race with mutas. I take everything I just said back: Since you probably can tell, from DK's post alone, exactly what changes will be made to mutas and exactly what impact that will have on the game (and have determined that Protoss will now have no idea how to deal with mutas even though they have figured out how to defend against mutas in WOL even without stargate), I think you should save Blizzard the trouble of making the change and then having to undo it by writing DK a letter explaining how Protoss, even though the build is fairly easily dealt iwth now (unless the protoss is caught completely off guard), will not be able to deal with mutas because of the to be determined acceleration or speed or whatever boost that they might give to mutas. In all seriousness, zergs can beat protoss going muta ling bane but most of the time Protoss (by Protoss I mean top tier Protoss) can defend that rather easily and I would guess, if someone complied stats, that the build is something like 60-40 at worst Protoss favored, which means the build hardly is a problem from the P prospective. If they do some insane buff then it may become a problem, but it's obviously way too early to tell and it's not currently a problem so why worry about it at all?
Are you for real? I have not written "What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate", that is some other guy. I play zerg and i think mutalisk are really strong given the right circumstances in ZvP. Read my posts.
What i am saying is, i would prefer if the consequences by choosing to go mutalisk were more even, i think the mutalisk choice is really strong in certain situations but way worse in other situations. The game has some hard counters i think we are all very aware of this fact by now. I would like to see the game go slightly in the different direciton, less hard counters, and i dont like the phoenix - muta dynamic.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On December 05 2012 03:51 Falling wrote:
Not a big fan of combining mech and air upgrades. One of the uniquenesses of mech play is that you committed to it and it was actually a significant investment to go mass air. The transition to air has already been eased by the medic -->> medivac switch combined with Reactors. Combining mech and air upgrades? meh.
It can be sami-combined like Protoss upgrades (shared shields, but separate weapons and armors)
Something like shared weapon upgrade, but separate Armor upgrades.
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Protoss is pretty horrid against mutas, especially compared to the other races. Mutas beat pure stalker, and that's not even as strong as the muta/baneling composition that relies on having sentries that you aren't allowed to build up. If storm is hurting you, you really need to check your mouse. Maybe try changing the batteries or something. If storm is still hurting your mutas after a speed increase, maybe get your keyboard checked. Maybe unplugged.
A phoenix with a range upgrade has the same range as a corrutper. Yeah, it's incredibly freaking surprising that a muta, corrupter composition would fare well against anything phoenix. About as surprising as seeing 10 colossi against a handful of hydras. It's always bewildering.
Honestly, I don't even really have a problem with mutas. I just think the game is weird. It's a game full of hard counters: immortals versus roach; colossi against hydras; archons versus lings, and etc, etc. But, when it comes to mutas, there is no hard counter. If someone can make 1 corrupter with their initial muta flock, phoenixes are not a hard counter. It's very weird. They gave the phoenixes a range upgrade for a reason. There's a reason no one gets it, too. There's a reason they initially designed the tempest to deal with mutas. The discrepancy between hard counters and soft counters is weird.
As for HotS, I don't know why players are using their mothershipcore with their army. If you can't snipe that, then your army is looking hopeless to begin with. And, if they do recall, well I guess they aren't attacking you. Enjoy your expansions. It seems a lot more sensible to use the mothership core's purifier ability. It's like a freaking super cannon that can't be killed. Now that helps out against mutas. If it weren't for that, and that alone, it would be asinine to consider any kinda buff to the muta.
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Finally a patch to look forward to. Terran getting mech+air upgrades combined is huge for mech play. Hopefully they remove the tech lab for barracks for an academy. Barracks are already the slowest building and slowest producing tier 1 due to tech labs being a major nuisance. It'd save space, time and money to allow better late game bio production. The reactor should be marines only due to balance reasons.
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On December 05 2012 03:52 Babru wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 03:42 The_Darkness wrote:On December 05 2012 03:21 Babru wrote:On December 05 2012 03:05 The_Darkness wrote:On December 05 2012 02:46 Babru wrote:On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up already, but...
I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine.
What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play altogether. Why these super hard counters? Blizzard should make it so that more units are acceptable vs most stuff, not really good or really terrible depening on things you might not even be able to scout. I got an idea just now as i thought about it, the phoenix anti-air is so awful (so easy to use and even looks real ugly the way they autoshoot while flying), i would like it much more if protoss got an anti-air tower in addition to the cannon, which would be the same size and mb cost half the price, and do decent dmg. Keep the phoenix but remove its awfull autoshoot while rightclick move command abillity. This way phoenix could still be usefull vs mutalisk but not shut them down alltogether, and p could dump overmins into these anti-air towers, and more importantly p would be able to deal with mutalisk play in an efficient way without being forced to open stargate. Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros? Are you asking Blizzard to balance the game around the problems of plat./diamond/masters level zerg? Watch how pros handle it. Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play, and thank god that it's not. If you want to deal with a hard phoenix counter you build infestors and fungal the phoenix and kill them with your mutas, or you just transition to tier 3. Thus zerg has a counter to the counter; I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed. "I think the protoss - zerg dynamic with respect to mutas is pretty well designed". I dont think everyone, including some of the very best protosses, agree with you. "Are you talking about your own experiences or those of pros?". When talking about balance the only level that is relevant is the highest one. "Mass muta really isn't a viable build at the top levels of play". Mutalisk harassment with a potentiall followup (given the right circumstances) by going into straight brute force mutalisk balls together with lings/banelings on the ground is, in contradiction to what you claim, very viable. If there wasnt a threat of phoenix i would think a lot more zergs would open straight into spire builds more often. In any case, like i wrote in my post, i dont like the phoenix - muta dynamic. Again, which pros are having trouble against this build since we're talking about the highest levels of play? Korean protosses are not struggling against muta at all so why did you write "What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate"? Try doing what they're doing now. Watch Creator or Hero play; they're got it figured out. A little acceleration might empower mutas in HoTS but MSC will give Protoss more options not to have to engage in a base race with mutas. I take everything I just said back: Since you probably can tell, from DK's post alone, exactly what changes will be made to mutas and exactly what impact that will have on the game (and have determined that Protoss will now have no idea how to deal with mutas even though they have figured out how to defend against mutas in WOL even without stargate), I think you should save Blizzard the trouble of making the change and then having to undo it by writing DK a letter explaining how Protoss, even though the build is fairly easily dealt iwth now (unless the protoss is caught completely off guard), will not be able to deal with mutas because of the to be determined acceleration or speed or whatever boost that they might give to mutas. In all seriousness, zergs can beat protoss going muta ling bane but most of the time Protoss (by Protoss I mean top tier Protoss) can defend that rather easily and I would guess, if someone complied stats, that the build is something like 60-40 at worst Protoss favored, which means the build hardly is a problem from the P prospective. If they do some insane buff then it may become a problem, but it's obviously way too early to tell and it's not currently a problem so why worry about it at all? Are you for real? I have not written "What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate", that is some other guy. I play zerg and i think mutalisk are really strong given the right circumstances in ZvP. Read my posts. What i am saying is, i would prefer if the consequences by choosing to go mutalisk were more even, i think the mutalisk choice is really strong in certain situations but way worse in other situations. The game has some hard counters i think we are all very aware of this fact by now. I would like to see the game go slightly in the different direciton, less hard counters, and i dont like the phoenix - muta dynamic.
Sorry, it was the other guy I was quoting not you. Apologies. Back to your post then: Who cares what your expierences are? Why even mention them since your experiences are irrelevant to balance discussions? Also, when you say "more even", for whom are you saying it should be more even? At the pro level it seems like both sides have pretty good options and the game is back and forth if zerg goes mutas, with Protoss being favored because mutas it turns out aren't that good. If you're really good at defending and with blink stalkers and army positioning you should win if you're protoss once you're maxed. If you use mutas to transition into blord infestor efficiently and can inflict at least some damage because the Protoss was caught off guard you have a chance to win as zerg. It doesn't seem like anything is broken here. You keep saying that phoenix hard counter mutas but that doesn't mean you can't go mutas if they build phoenixes since you can still build infestors to stop the phoenixes, something Stephano, e.g., is good at doing. It's not easy to do, but why should it be?
So I'm confused by your point since mutas are most certainly not an auto win for zerg. Also just because a build is strong in certain instances doesn't mean it's a problem. DT builds are very strong when your opponent does not have detection. No one is fretting about DT usage. Protoss have more than one option to counter mutas and Zerg can fight back with mutas (if for some ungodly reason a zerg wants to go mutas in zvp) so long as some infestors join the fight. (Corruptors are an option too but Zerg almost always lose when I see them go corruptors to fight the phoenix.) So I don't see where the problem lies except that you stopped watching pro games 6 to 9 months ago when mutas were still a thing in zvp and you think it may be a problem in HoTS.
I hate to pick on you but a preposterous amount of discussion in these forums is substantially off base and helps nothing. If there is one thing no one needs to worry about now it's mutas in zvp. Also I would guess that protoss would take a slight resurgence in muta usage over more blord infestor deathball play.
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It sounds like this is going to be huge!
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
5. Buff Bio in the late game - with the addition of new units in HotS, we feel Bio in the late game is a bit weak.
6. Buff mech in general - we'd like to maybe test combining the vehicle and air upgrades at the armory.
I love you kim.
These seem like broad changes, I cannot fricking wait.
The mixed upgrades thing looks awesome as well.
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seems like zerg is just getting worse.
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Hydras don't need a damage or HP buff guys... Blizzard is trying to design them to synergize with Viper's blinding cloud and abduct... Trying to think of Hydras as a standalone core attacking unit is not the intentions of Blizzard. Its with Vipers that Hydras will become a strong core unit for the Zerg. That being said, tier 3 will basically still be a requirement for Hydras to be viable damage dealers.
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On December 05 2012 02:52 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:46 Babru wrote:On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up already, but...
I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine.
What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? Im a zerg and i dont like that mutas are very useful as long as no phoenix are out, but when phoenix are out, the zerg obv has to shut down his muta play alltogether. Why these super hard counters? Blizzard should make it so that more units are acceptable vs most stuff, not really good or really terrible depening on things you might not even be able to scout. I got an idea just now as i thought about it, the phoenix anti-air is so awful (so easy to use and even looks real ugly the way they autoshoot while flying), i would like it much more if protoss got an anti-air tower in addition to the cannon, which would be the same size and mb cost half the price, and do decent dmg. Keep the phoenix but remove its awfull autoshoot while rightclick move command abillity. This way phoenix could still be usefull vs mutalisk but not shut them down alltogether, and p could dump overmins into these anti-air towers, and more importantly p would be able to deal with mutalisk play in an efficient way without being forced to open stargate. stargate opener completely deny mutas. if you open blink you will still be fine. only problem i see is opening robo BUT: recall is the strongest thing toss gets in HOTS. its no more baserace with mutas! he baseraces? well kill 2 bases, recall and defend. recall is so powerful (not many people work with it yet) that i even think it will get nerfed or become an upgrade or less radius so you can only use it in early and early midgame.
I just hate that its on 1 unit. I makes it so that its a coin flip. Does Zerg snipe the MSC? A better scenario would be a support spell caster who has to choose between recall, thus forcing it to base defend, or support the offence. Much like the BW Recall. But, yeah base races in PvZ are stupid, and the only thing stoping it in BW was the Cosair.
Micro>Scourge>Cosair>Muta
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On December 05 2012 02:36 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 02:34 Treehead wrote:On December 05 2012 02:27 marvellosity wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up already, but...
I remember when they first announced new units, Tempest was supposed to be like the "anti-muta" thing. Obviously it's phased away since then and that's fine.
What are Protoss supposed to do against mutalisks in HotS if they get speedier/better acceleration and toss didn't open stargate? Storms will do less damage and they're one of the principle damage dealers against mutas in WoL. What is Protoss' answer to an even faster muta? I'm guessing "2-base Immortal Timing" was probably not the answer you were looking for. Not quite I'm genuinely curious, because in WoL the "answer" is blink stalkers and storm, broadly speaking. Stalkers can scoot and shoot and blink to catch up, obviously that's negated by speed/accel boost. Ditto storm doing markedly less damage. I'm missing something somewhere ^^
Why do people forget Phoenix Range Upgrade.
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On December 05 2012 05:13 sagefreke wrote:
Hydras don't need a damage or HP buff guys... Blizzard is trying to design them to synergize with Viper's blinding cloud and abduct... Trying to think of Hydras as a standalone core attacking unit is not the intentions of Blizzard. Its with Vipers that Hydras will become a strong core unit for the Zerg. That being said, tier 3 will basically still be a requirement for Hydras to be viable damage dealers.
+1. Yep Hydra/Roach works vs Mech now with good Viper usage. I've used them successfully to back-up Swarm Hosts too. Run them in while the roaches are tanking damage.
Increased speed at Lair is a good one... we can finally see some mid-game strategies with Hydras. But yea I think with the new units in HOTS Hydras become useful without a damage or HP buff.
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On December 05 2012 04:59 KimJongChill wrote:
seems like zerg is just getting worse.
Apparently you have not seen infestor viper. Viper is pretty good. And by pretty good I mean: blatantly imbalanced* as it f's up the AI in the game so bad that you can't control your own units if you choose to engage in an area a viper has used a spell. It's actually laughably broken.
That said, hopefully these changes help some of the issues present. I can say for sure some do look quite good. On the other hand, some seem to still be dancing around some blatant issues in HotS... :/
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EPT
